Jump to content

Rules Question - Hunting?


TJSoCal

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

Give me one moment, in your opinion, you think that POV could have ducked...

 

Most of the time POV could have ducked. Maybe between 27 and 29 s in the video she was unable to duck due to #3822. But there is no rule that you have to duck. There are other ways to keep clear.

 

It is very hard to estimate the position of SSL in the video. So it is impossible to say which keeping clear options POV had at which time. When did POV need to realize that #3822 is going to make the other keeping clear options impossible. That is the key point regarding exoneration of POV. She is compelled to break 10 only when she can no longer keep clear due to another boat breaking a rule. So even though #3822 broke 11 POV needed still to do everything to keep clear.

Merry Christmas.

 

We're honing in on this.

 

My full sentence was...'Give , one moment, in your opinion, you think that POV could have ducked, after her other option (luff and tack) were closed out by #3822'

 

 

OK, she could have ducked when the video starts at T0:00. However, she didn't need to then. When the video starts, SLL was able to 'sail her course without needing to take avoiding action.' So POV was keeping clear at that time, and didn't need to take any action at that time.

 

You said,

 

"When did POV need to realize that #3822 is going to make the other keeping clear options impossible. That is the key point regarding exoneration of POV."

 

She doesn't. (See Case 3 and Case 27). She does NOT have to anticipate that #3822 will break a rule later on. So she is entitled to believe she can use 'other options' all the while she is RoW.

 

Fast Forward to #3822 head-to-wind in her tack, T0:22. This is an important moment, because here #3822 becomes 'keep clear boat' and POV is RoW.

 

Then let's note the first moment we are certain that SLL has tacked to avoid contact. T0:37. i.e. the rule has been broken.

 

So let's exclude everything before T0:21, and consider the 15 seconds after that point until T0:37. And now let's work backwards.

 

T0:37 - SLL has tacked. Rule 10 has been broken by POV.

T0:36 - Hard to say where SLL was, but based on above, I'd say a duck was not possible. POV is fully luffed to avoid contact, her jib flapping.

T0:33 - POV starts a luff above close hauled, but is certainly prevented from rolling into a tack by #3822. I'd say at a guess (see SLL's reflection), a duck was not possible here...hence the luff to avoid SLL. Luckily SLL tacks to avoid contact, so POV

T0:26 - #3822 oversteers her tack and bears into POV. POV is prevented from tacking to avoid SLL, and bears away to avoid contact with #3822 and give #3822 room to keep clear under rule 16.1. The helm is gesturing SLL's presence. Thereafter, the hulls of each boat are so close that POV couldn't significantly 'change course without immediately making contact' to duck SLL. Maybe it was too late by then already.

T0:22 - POV luffs hard (probably to tack clear of SLL). She is RoW and can expect to be able to sail her course.

T0:21 - #3822 becomes 'keep clear boat' under rule 13.

 

So, at T0:22, POV was entitled to believe that she could sail her course (and keep clear of SLL). She starts to take that action, and so is acting to 'keep clear'. That is a 'point of certainty'. At T0:26 a boat broke a rule preventing her from doing this.

 

Thereafter, can you see an opportunity when POV had another option to keep clear of SLL? I can't.

 

Checkmate!

 

DW

Look, we're never going to fully resolve this because we don't have the audio of what, if any, hails were given.

 

You keep saying that 3822 prevented POV from tacking which caused POV to foul SLL under rule 10. The first part of that is correct, but the 2nd part is an unknown. Unless POV hailed for "room to tack" under R20, 3822 is not obligated to tack to allow POV to avoid SLL. POV can luff HTW all she wants to try to entice 3822 to tack, but as long as 3822 remains clear during POV's luff, she can continue to sail as she pleases. However, IF (and we don't know this) POV hailed for room to tack then 3822 would then have been forced to tack immediately. Again we have no evidence either way if that happened. My gut says from the body language on POV, there was NOT a hail. Because if I hailed a boat to tack and I was about to T-bone a Stb boat unless she did - I would be a bit more "animated" than what I saw there. But that's total conjecture on my part.

 

The bottom line is: POV had two "outs" here. POV could hail for room to tack, which IMHO would have been the prudent thing before the P/S situation developed any further. OR she could have ducked SLL. As the ROW boat of the two port tackers - POV has the option to pass the obstruction on either side. Unless she hails for a tack, her only option at that point is to duck. And in doing so, she must give room for the inside boat to duck as well if she had been able to from the time the overlap began. I cannot tell you definitely from the video if that could have happened. But given that there was almost 20 sec from the time the overlap began before they met SLL - I would say that POV could have (and maybe should have) ducked SLL from the time 3822 tacked.

Dude? Really? We need to chat!

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Look, we're never going to fully resolve this because we don't have the audio of what, if any, hails were given.

 

You keep saying that 3822 prevented POV from tacking which caused POV to foul SLL under rule 10. The first part of that is correct, but the 2nd part is an unknown. Unless POV hailed for "room to tack" under R20, 3822 is not obligated to tack to allow POV to avoid SLL. POV can luff HTW all she wants to try to entice 3822 to tack, but as long as 3822 remains clear during POV's luff, she can continue to sail as she pleases. However, IF (and we don't know this) POV hailed for room to tack then 3822 would then have been forced to tack immediately. Again we have no evidence either way if that happened. My gut says from the body language on POV, there was NOT a hail. Because if I hailed a boat to tack and I was about to T-bone a Stb boat unless she did - I would be a bit more "animated" than what I saw there. But that's total conjecture on my part.

 

The bottom line is: POV had two "outs" here. POV could hail for room to tack, which IMHO would have been the prudent thing before the P/S situation developed any further. OR she could have ducked SLL. As the ROW boat of the two port tackers - POV has the option to pass the obstruction on either side. Unless she hails for a tack, her only option at that point is to duck. And in doing so, she must give room for the inside boat to duck as well if she had been able to from the time the overlap began. I cannot tell you definitely from the video if that could have happened. But given that there was almost 20 sec from the time the overlap began before they met SLL - I would say that POV could have (and maybe should have) ducked SLL from the time 3822 tacked.

Dude? Really? We need to chat!

 

 

Feel free.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Look, we're never going to fully resolve this because we don't have the audio of what, if any, hails were given.

 

You keep saying that 3822 prevented POV from tacking which caused POV to foul SLL under rule 10. The first part of that is correct, but the 2nd part is an unknown. Unless POV hailed for "room to tack" under R20, 3822 is not obligated to tack to allow POV to avoid SLL. POV can luff HTW all she wants to try to entice 3822 to tack, but as long as 3822 remains clear during POV's luff, she can continue to sail as she pleases. However, IF (and we don't know this) POV hailed for room to tack then 3822 would then have been forced to tack immediately. Again we have no evidence either way if that happened. My gut says from the body language on POV, there was NOT a hail. Because if I hailed a boat to tack and I was about to T-bone a Stb boat unless she did - I would be a bit more "animated" than what I saw there. But that's total conjecture on my part.

 

The bottom line is: POV had two "outs" here. POV could hail for room to tack, which IMHO would have been the prudent thing before the P/S situation developed any further. OR she could have ducked SLL. As the ROW boat of the two port tackers - POV has the option to pass the obstruction on either side. Unless she hails for a tack, her only option at that point is to duck. And in doing so, she must give room for the inside boat to duck as well if she had been able to from the time the overlap began. I cannot tell you definitely from the video if that could have happened. But given that there was almost 20 sec from the time the overlap began before they met SLL - I would say that POV could have (and maybe should have) ducked SLL from the time 3822 tacked.

Dude? Really? We need to chat!

Feel free.

I'm on the road right now... so can't talk long, but...

 

1. He can only hail for room to tack when boat is on same tack overlapped. At what point do you think that state occurs? Off my head I would say someone between T23 and T26. That leaves about 3 seconds for the hail and the response. Er... Not enough time!

 

Have you ever hailed for room to tack? In my experience it doesn't happen fast. I hhaven't ever tried hhailing a boat who is subject to rule 13.

 

2. Sorry. 3822 doesn't keep clear of the luff at all. POV lluff sand then has to bear away.

 

While she is wwindward boat she must keep clear of any luff. She ddoesn'!

 

3. 20 seconds? Overlap created at T26, reflection of starboard at T32. That is 6 seconds.

 

Just on evidence of timing alone, this is pretty clear.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Look, we're never going to fully resolve this because we don't have the audio of what, if any, hails were given.

 

You keep saying that 3822 prevented POV from tacking which caused POV to foul SLL under rule 10. The first part of that is correct, but the 2nd part is an unknown. Unless POV hailed for "room to tack" under R20, 3822 is not obligated to tack to allow POV to avoid SLL. POV can luff HTW all she wants to try to entice 3822 to tack, but as long as 3822 remains clear during POV's luff, she can continue to sail as she pleases. However, IF (and we don't know this) POV hailed for room to tack then 3822 would then have been forced to tack immediately. Again we have no evidence either way if that happened. My gut says from the body language on POV, there was NOT a hail. Because if I hailed a boat to tack and I was about to T-bone a Stb boat unless she did - I would be a bit more "animated" than what I saw there. But that's total conjecture on my part.

 

The bottom line is: POV had two "outs" here. POV could hail for room to tack, which IMHO would have been the prudent thing before the P/S situation developed any further. OR she could have ducked SLL. As the ROW boat of the two port tackers - POV has the option to pass the obstruction on either side. Unless she hails for a tack, her only option at that point is to duck. And in doing so, she must give room for the inside boat to duck as well if she had been able to from the time the overlap began. I cannot tell you definitely from the video if that could have happened. But given that there was almost 20 sec from the time the overlap began before they met SLL - I would say that POV could have (and maybe should have) ducked SLL from the time 3822 tacked.

Dude? Really? We need to chat!

Feel free.

I'm on the road right now... so can't talk long, but...

 

1. He can only hail for room to tack when boat is on same tack overlapped. At what point do you think that state occurs? Off my head I would say someone between T23 and T26. That leaves about 3 seconds for the hail and the response. Er... Not enough time! I never said anything about hailing before 3822 completes her tack. And you may very well be correct that there wasn't enough time to hail for room to tack and then have 3822 respond. But I would say that makes the case even stronger than POVs only real move was to duck SLL. At no point did 3822 prevent POV from ducking and a case can be made that POV also prevented 3822 from ducking as well, which is her right under rule 19 to avoid the obstruction.

 

Have you ever hailed for room to tack? In my experience it doesn't happen fast. I hhaven't ever tried hhailing a boat who is subject to rule 13. Yes, but I never said anything about hailing them while they are still tacking.

 

2. Sorry. 3822 doesn't keep clear of the luff at all. POV lluff sand then has to bear away. That is a completely different set of circumstances than what happened with SLL and the Rule 10 foul.

 

@ :22 3822 is still tacking and must keep clear under R13. However, the ROW cannot suddenly also change course and not allow her to continue keeping clear. From :22 until :27, POV makes an aggressive luff and I would contend she comes close to if not actually breaking 16.1 because I see that as not giving 3822 room to keep clear. POV went HTW during that luff as you see her jib flapping. I do not think 3822 over-turned the tack as has been alleged and bore away. Yes their jib is not trimmed in, but it does not look to me as if they turned much as all beyond close-hauled.

 

I also strongly believe that POV was so focused on fucking w/ 3822 that she doesn't see or doesn't correctly deal with S coming down the LL until it is too late.

 

While she is wwindward boat she must keep clear of any luff. She ddoesn'! I agree WW must keep clear. But LW must also allow WW to remain keeping clear. POVs aggressive luff looked to me like she did not allow 3822 room to keep clear. I could see that going either way.

3. 20 seconds? Overlap created at T26, reflection of starboard at T32. That is 6 seconds. OK, even more reason for POV to duck S.

 

Just on evidence of timing alone, this is pretty clear. What is clear?

 

 

Take away 3822 from the equation..... what does POV do wrt to Stb? My take is that there is no way she tacks under S without fouling her under 18.3(a). So the reality is she would likely have ducked S anyway - esopecially as she was further to LW of 3822 in the video and had less chance of crossing or leebowing S. But because she decided to get into a luffing contest with 3822 rather than sailing her own race, I think that makes her even more culpable for not being exonerated under R10.

 

Take POV out of the equation and I think 3822 would have also likely had to duck S. Dunno, its hard to tell from the video. But given that fact that 3822 was luffed up at the mark and still met S to the point she couldn't have crossed without POV being a pick, that leads me to believe that 3822 would definitely had to duck S.

 

I still say most likely scenario is both P tackers get tossed. 3822 for R11 earlier in the encounter with POV and then POV gets tossed for R10 with S. Nothing IMHO that 3822 did prevented POV from ducking and keeping clear of S. In fact, POV screwed herself with regard to S by getting into a luffing match with 3822 instead of worrying about the S boat on the LL instead. ALL heads on POV are focused on fucking with 3822 until 0:29 when the guy starts pointing at S. By then its too late.

 

DSQ both port boats.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm on the road right now... so can't talk long, but...

 

1. He can only hail for room to tack when boat is on same tack overlapped. At what point do you think that state occurs? Off my head I would say someone between T23 and T26. That leaves about 3 seconds for the hail and the response. Er... Not enough time! I never said anything about hailing before 3822 completes her tack. And you may very well be correct that there wasn't enough time to hail for room to tack and then have 3822 respond. But I would say that makes the case even stronger than POVs only real move was to duck SLL. At no point did 3822 prevent POV from ducking and a case can be made that POV also prevented 3822 from ducking as well, which is her right under rule 19 to avoid the obstruction.

 

No! POV does not have to anticipate that 3822 will break a rule. POV can reasonably expect that when she needs to luff to keep clear of SLL (and maybe tack), she can without being impeded. When she tried that, she met 3822 who was windward boat recovering from her tack.

 

Have you ever hailed for room to tack? In my experience it doesn't happen fast. I hhaven't ever tried hhailing a boat who is subject to rule 13. Yes, but I never said anything about hailing them while they are still tacking.

 

2. Sorry. 3822 doesn't keep clear of the luff at all. POV lluff sand then has to bear away. That is a completely different set of circumstances than what happened with SLL and the Rule 10 foul.

 

@ :22 3822 is still tacking and must keep clear under R13. However, the ROW cannot suddenly also change course and not allow her to continue keeping clear. From :22 until :27, POV makes an aggressive luff and I would contend she comes close to if not actually breaking 16.1 because I see that as not giving 3822 room to keep clear.

 

Dude, POV makes an aggressive luff because SLL is there!

 

POV went HTW during that luff as you see her jib flapping. I do not think 3822 over-turned the tack as has been alleged and bore away. Yes their jib is not trimmed in, but it does not look to me as if they turned much as all beyond close-hauled.

 

I also strongly believe that POV was so focused on fucking w/ 3822 that she doesn't see or doesn't correctly deal with S coming down the LL until it is too late.

 

My initial thought was that POV was trying to 'fuck' with 3822. Why do that, I asked. Then it dawned on me (by looking at POVs skipper) that POV's luff was to keep clear of SLL. She wasn't trying to fuck with 3822 at all.

 

While she is wwindward boat she must keep clear of any luff. She ddoesn'! I agree WW must keep clear. But LW must also allow WW to remain keeping clear. POVs aggressive luff looked to me like she did not allow 3822 room to keep clear.

 

POV luffed, and was impeded by 3822. POV bore away before there was contact and allowed 3822 to tack away. POV did not break 16.1.

 

I could see that going either way.

3. 20 seconds? Overlap created at T26, reflection of starboard at T32. That is 6 seconds. OK, even more reason for POV to duck S.

 

Going at 4kts, with SLL right there under the boom, no boat in the world could spin that quick to avoid SLL. Additionally, her stern swing was cramped by 3822 being so close.

 

Just on evidence of timing alone, this is pretty clear. What is clear? POV tried, and couldn't. 3822 tacked without looking at the big picture, almost causing a major crash.

 

 

Take away 3822 from the equation..... what does POV do wrt to Stb? My take is that there is no way she tacks under S without fouling her under 18.3(a).

 

Who knows. Maybe she would have been able to tuck inside ahead?

 

So the reality is she would likely have ducked S anyway - esopecially as she was further to LW of 3822 in the video and had less chance of crossing or leebowing S. But because she decided to get into a luffing contest with 3822 rather than sailing her own race, I think that makes her even more culpable for not being exonerated under R10.

 

This comes down to you believing that POV luffed to fuck with 3822, making her a baddy. First, ask yourself why? Why would she do that? Next, if you actually run the timings a little more accurately, you'll realise that her luff was entirely consistent with keeping clear of SLL. Change your thinking about POV trying to fuck with 3822 because that makes no sense at all.

 

Take POV out of the equation and I think 3822 would have also likely had to duck S. Dunno, its hard to tell from the video. But given that fact that 3822 was luffed up at the mark and still met S to the point she couldn't have crossed without POV being a pick, that leads me to believe that 3822 would definitely had to duck S.

 

I still say most likely scenario is both P tackers get tossed. 3822 for R11 earlier in the encounter with POV and then POV gets tossed for R10 with S

 

For the last time, after the R11, SLL was too close to duck, and the overlapped boats were too close to duck.

 

Nothing IMHO that 3822 did prevented POV from ducking and keeping clear of S. In fact, POV screwed herself with regard to S by getting into a luffing match with 3822 instead of worrying about the S boat on the LL instead. ALL heads on POV are focused on fucking with 3822 until 0:29 when the guy starts pointing at S. By then its too late.

 

NO! She was not in a 'luffing match'. She was luffing to avoid contact with SLL. SLL IS MUCH CLOSER THAN YOU THINK!

 

DSQ both port boats. Easy option...whatever...

 

Look, I really think this was pretty unintentional by 3822. Simply trying to save a shitty layline call. However, to tack into a port tack windward boat position, when there is a leeward boat and a starboard boat converging on the space you finish your tack...that is UTTERLY STUPID. It is almost as bad as a barge at a mark. As I said, this is clear. POV did not have to anticipate that.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

"When did POV need to realize that #3822 is going to make the other keeping clear options impossible. That is the key point regarding exoneration of POV."

 

She doesn't. (See Case 3 and Case 27). She does NOT have to anticipate that #3822 will break a rule later on. So she is entitled to believe she can use 'other options' all the while she is RoW.

 

No POV doesn't have to anticipate, that #3822 will break a rule, but I think at 0:22 it was clear that POV will not be able to tack due to #3822 even if #3822 had kept clear as long as POW had ROW.

 

I don't know if luffing to HTW would have been enough for POV or if there still was time to duck.

Link to post
Share on other sites

T0:33 - POV starts a luff above close hauled, but is certainly prevented from rolling into a tack by #3822. I'd say at a guess (see SLL's reflection), a duck was not possible here...hence the luff to avoid SLL. Luckily SLL tacks to avoid contact, so POV

 

T0:36 - Hard to say where SLL was, but based on above, I'd say a duck was not possible. POV is fully luffed to avoid contact, her jib flapping.

T0:26 - #3822 oversteers her tack and bears into POV. POV is prevented from tacking to avoid SLL, and bears away to avoid contact with #3822 and give #3822 room to keep clear under rule 16.1. The helm is gesturing SLL's presence. Thereafter, the hulls of each boat are so close that POV couldn't significantly 'change course without immediately making contact' to duck SLL. Maybe it was too late by then already.
T0:22 - POV luffs hard (probably to tack clear of SLL). She is RoW and can expect to be able to sail her course.

 

#3822 would have prevented POV to tack even though she wouldn't have broken 11. It is not sure would POV have been able to keep clear by just shooting to HTW. If shooting to HTW wouldn't have been enough and there was still time to duck when it was clear that POV will not be able to tack, POV should not be exonerated, since she didn't duck, which was the only option to keep clear at that point.

 

If there was no time to for POV to duck at the point when it was clear that POV can't tack, did #3822 already break 16.1 by putting POV into position she can't keep clear of SLL?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Look, I really think this was pretty unintentional by 3822. Simply trying to save a shitty layline call. However, to tack into a port tack windward boat position, when there is a leeward boat and a starboard boat converging on the space you finish your tack...that is UTTERLY STUPID. It is almost as bad as a barge at a mark. As I said, this is clear. POV did not have to anticipate that.

 

 

I think it is difficult to say was 3822, POV or both stupid here. Well 3822 was, since she clearly broke R11. But was she stupid to tack as well? That's a much more difficult question.

 

She nicely locked POV thus she would have been before POV at the mark in the absence of SLL. Had she tacked later there would have been room for POV to tack at the layline and then 3822 would have to duck POV.

 

When we take SLL back it depends on the postition of 3822 and POV relative to SLL. Maybe 3822 was in a position to cross or leebow SLL and POV was neither. So 3822 may have thought that his tack will force POV to duck SLL while 3822 can cross or leebow SLL. If that is the case POV should not be exonerated, since it was it's choise to try to tack when ducking was the only real option.

 

If 3822 put POV into a check mate position, then 3822 maybe broke 16.1.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I only asked "Can we have a real judgment on this video? Was there a real violation by either or is this just racing?"

 

IMHO, 3822 tacked too close and pinned POV with the boat coming on STBD. POV had only seconds to consider the stbd boat when he had a too close tacker.

 

I think both 3822 and POV suffer from not knowing anything about racing at the mark rounding.

 

  1. If I were POV, based on the first bit of footage, I would never have footed and punched for the port layline or above.
    Following 3822's transom right around the mark or maybe even sneaking in??? There is no doubt if left alone 3822 would have overstood when the tacked to port to get over to the right. They always do.
  2. If I were 3822, I would have gone right to the port layline and done just 2 tacks instead of 2 tacks and a rounding.

If both boats had competent skippers, it would never have looked like the video. Is this really how they race in SF?

 

Last thought:
This is why people drop out of racing just when they are getting in. Idiots

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Last thought:

This is why people drop out of racing just when they are getting in. Idiots

 

I don't think that people drop out because they made a mistake and were penalized. They drop out because of all of the yadda that goes with it:

 

1."Asshole, you have no rights!" - as the event unfolds

2. "Protest - do your fucking turns!" - while the newbie is still trying to figure out what happened and whether he really broke a rule

3. Nagging - "do your turns, do your turns" from the other guy's rail on the downwind leg

4. Confrontation at the dock - either patronizing or outraged or just rude, and in public: "we used to pull that stupid shit in Opti summer camp...". "Read your rulebook". "Where did you learn how to sail?"

5. Protest hearing when someone embellishes or lies about what happens

 

Screwing up, getting protested and losing is part of learning. Some folks get too wrapped up and emotional about it and spin up the nastiness quotient of the discussion.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

  1. If I were POV, based on the first bit of footage, I would never have footed and punched for the port layline or above.

    Following 3822's transom right around the mark or maybe even sneaking in??? There is no doubt if left alone 3822 would have overstood when the tacked to port to get over to the right. They always do.

  2. If I were 3822, I would have gone right to the port layline and done just 2 tacks instead of 2 tacks and a rounding.

 

Did POV really have an option to do that? It seams like she was ahead of 3822, at some point she was close to being able to cross. And then there was a boat rounding the mark having ROW. If POV would have pinched as high as possible, how would she keep clear of 3822 and the boat already rounded the mark? POV would need to slow down more than possible at that point.

 

If 3822 had gone to port layline, POV would have been able to force her duck at the mark and then 3822 would have had problems with SLL as well. So I think tacking there was a good move by 3822, but she turned too much and broke 11. Possible also 16.1, but that is hard to say from the video. That assuming she would have been able to tack in front of SLL or leebow her.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a famous video from the 1970s (probably film, not video) of a port-starboard crossing by two maxis. The view is from overhead and you can see the wakes. Neither one flinches. Anyone know a source for this? I couldn't find it on YouTube.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems pretty clear POV broke 15 if there was contact.

 

http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/93

 

That is not the same situation. POV was attempting to round the mark, the example was a boat luffing away from the mark.

 

POV acquired the overlap from a tack. She can sail as high as she likes as long as the windward boat is given room to avoid contact.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems pretty clear POV broke 15 if there was contact.

 

http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/93

15 is not valid in this situation, since POV acquired ROW because of 3822's action. Once 3822 crossed HTW she should have kept clear of POV instead of turning so much and becoming too close to POV.

 

16.1 is valid and limits how POV is allowed to change course, but 3822 kept on turning towards POV when she should have stopped turning or even turned back towards HTW.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...