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Smyth Wingsail via Jim Brown


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Surprising to see forum anarchists to spend more time answering crappy DL genius allegations, than putting their brain at work to elaborate interesting questions regarding this "made in USA" innovation.

 

The radio interview is not very clear for non native English anarchists, that is whY the only point I believe I understood was the 360° rotation, but I did not notice any comment regarding the lift, the drag, the relative performance vs a classic teardrop mast+ full batten sail rig.

 

It seems to be an application of the Tom Speer workpaper with a teardrop mast at 50% sail chord ??

 

Congratulations &Cheers

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I agree Bench. I didn´t want to post here what I heard so everybody goes and listen to the podcast. But I´ll throw in a couple comments just to stir discussion

- the wingmast has a bearing on top and it can rotate 360deg. Most of the functionality comes from this, ie you don´t need to take it down and up all the time as a C-Cat wing. And feathering in a big gust makes it mush safer.

- then you have the soft sail to add area as necessary

- the combination wing+soft sail has much better profile than a soft sail

- very difficult application, only possible with modern materials and a lot of engineering

- it is designed for much bigger boats

- it is patented and will be marketed

- they are building 7 (?) right now, again, bigger boats

- Jim Brown thinks this is truly revolutionary but didn´t get why he thinks it is. It would be, if it became mainstream...

 

listen to the podcast!

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While Jim didn't give a lot of detail to back his "revolutionary" comment, what I believe was exactly that is Randy accomplishment in the conditions that this race through at him. The hold back on wing sails in an offshore environment to date has been how to deal with it in big breeze. Randy certainly had that. I called him to congratulate on the accomplishment and he told me about a squall he sailed through with multiple water spouts. He said he didn't think he could have completed this race with his soft sail rig. He just said it to me, so he wasn't "selling".

 

All around remarkable, and I can't wait to see the bigger incarnations.

 

rew

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At first glance it seems that this wing/sail concept enables

 

1- To change sail area to some extend

2-When no more soft sail area to be roll down, the remaining mast

-is less draggy than a bare classic mast,

-and it can feather in the wind at 360°

 

While it might look trivial, I think this trade-off is a great achievement.

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While Jim didn't give a lot of detail to back his "revolutionary" comment, what I believe was exactly that is Randy accomplishment in the conditions that this race through at him. The hold back on wing sails in an offshore environment to date has been how to deal with it in big breeze. Randy certainly had that. I called him to congratulate on the accomplishment and he told me about a squall he sailed through with multiple water spouts. He said he didn't think he could have completed this race with his soft sail rig. He just said it to me, so he wasn't "selling".

 

All around remarkable, and I can't wait to see the bigger incarnations.

 

rew

 

Agreed.

Now I remember they said its aimed at the general sailing market i.e cruising. It will appear quickly in racing applications, for sure. But the average 4ktsb conservative sailor will be harder to convince. I guess this solution could extend to the general market much in the way aysm sails and furlers did. Today all sailors are aware of its advantages.

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Agree. V interesting.

 

Can't find the detail now, but wasn't Chris White quite excited by his Mast foil arrangement which was also 360 deg. rotating albeit he didn't have a soft sail add on? And I think his first rig fell over!

 

Only asking, not dissing anyone.

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Wingmast/sail combinations have been around for a long time, and were popular in the C-class (and other open class cats) before wingsails supplanted them.

91750d1402267348-early-australian-c-clas

(drawing by François Chevalier)

 

It looks like the Scissors rig differs in using a light-weight structure for the wingmast, and in running the stays to the masthead so it can rotate 360 deg. It doesn't look like the mast would rotate 360 deg with the sail raised, so it wouldn't be able to gybe-around like a cantilevered wishbone rig. I agree with all of Bench Warmer's advantages for the rig.

 

Aerodynamically, I don't see any difference between Scissors's rig and traditional wingmast/sail rigs. That's not to take anything away from the performance of the rig - I'm a fan of wingmast/sail rigs. In some applications, they can be every bit as competitive as full wingsail rigs.

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... It doesn't look like the mast would rotate 360 deg with the sail raised, so it wouldn't be able to gybe-around like a cantilevered wishbone rig....

... I agree with all of Bench Warmer's advantages for the rig ....

Looking at the better pictures in http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/2017-everglades-challenge-57377.html it looks like it does rotate 360° with sail raised.

 

I am not convinced that the mastwing was meant to stay up just like any other mast. Even when freely feathering the wind has its ways with wings with significant cross sections like this one. Even with the relatively short chord of the Chris White's Mastfoil I have not found a discussion to dispel the thought that this may have been the prime cause for the mast fail.

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I think Jim's initial point was that in order for wing sails to ever become practical for the masses, the ability to leave it up overnight or longer when not in use has to be possible. The masthead attachment on a rotating mount allows this.

 

A follow up podcast will detail more specifics about the actual hard wing - soft sail combination.

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Moth: it would be interesting to see them pull off Randy's rig on a cat boat with shrouds.

Moth: just put out mini outriggers like on the Volvo and mini monohulls to get the extra width, I can't think of any moth class law to prevent rigging width.

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The company that Randy is working with is owned and headed by Tommy Gonzalez, its called Fast Forward Composites and they are building an amazing craft that you will hear more about soon. They have built a hybrid wing that is sized to fit on Tommy's Formula 40 'Caliente'. It has been load tested and sailing testing is set to begin soon in Bristol RI. Once they work out the kinks at that scale, the plan is to have them on the hydrofoiling platform that Jim Brown alludes to in his podcast. Now that Fast Forward has the patents you will be seeing more about this project and the technology in the wing and foils. It's super cool.

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Between foils and wings, the advances in sailing the last few years have been amazing.

 

#comingsoontoaboatnearyou!

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So bets on where the next one will pop up?

 

Moth

A-Class

Gunboat

Rawson 30

The big challenge for A's and Moths would be making a rig strong enough to handle the inevitable wipe outs. It doesn't matter who you are, you will end up hitting the tide hard at some point in time and if your rig isn't strong enough, it doesn't matter how fast you were before that.

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Combined with the increased weight aloft, wings haven't been proven to work in the A or Moth as they were actually slower upwind in chop! The podcast wasn't of much interest to me as it ignored most all design details except the ability to rotate 360 degrees, something I'm still not sure how exactly works but I have a few ideas. Anyway, I do think there is potential here as the structure could be made stronger without a drastic increase in weight as the rigid portion is only a portion of the rig rather than the whole kit.

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I was wondering where the shrouds attach given the way the amas move, but I can see now that they do attach to the amas - the top of the mast must be directly above the pivot for the rear beam so that the shrouds can move with the amas without changing in length.

 

Someone else may now try to patent a similar idea where the mast can be unstayed when the boat's parked but have stays attached whenever the sail's applying a force. If power to the sail needs to be dumped in an emergency, the sheet and the stays could all be released and the mast would stay up.

 

Another thing worth looking at would be the horizontal parts within the wing section. If they could be rotated like with window blinds, you could have a fairly solid soft wing (perhaps inflatable to help hold its shape) that can be rolled up round the mast to reduce the risk of damage during transportation.

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a significant part of the load on the mast comes from the frontstay where the leading edge of the jib must be maintained as straight as possible.

 

The compression resulting from the little mainsail remains a bit mysterious too me, probably lower than for a classic sail+ small teardrop mast with similar area ??? But its aspect ratio is so high that I am a bit confused on this point (Double aspect ratio but half area)

 

Or the tension to hold the leech = the tension to hold the jib ?? more or less Just an assumption

 

any idea?

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As a professionnal sailmaker Randy tried a jib+reduced mainsail on an A-Cat,

 

but it was probably because the original mast of his boat was not stiff enought for a normal sail, so he cut the mast and put a jib

instead of buying a new rig set.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Hasn't Randy already tried wings a couple times on his A with mixed results?

 

A number of years ago someone ( Ben Hall I think) built an A cat wing sail that Randy spent some time sailing, that's probably what you are remembering. I don't remember the wing being any great speed break thru.

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Yes this was Ben Hall's wing, 2012. I thought it looked heavy, and rather thick-looking. Racing showed no advantage- it was draggy thus mid fleet. Nowadays we see the accomplished foilers blast off from the weather mark, but this wingmast did not show sudden coherent, manageable power on some leg or direction. It was 10% chord maybe 12%, but we are used to seeing half an airfoil when looking up at A-cat rigs. Randy Smyth was not much impressed.

And I watched Randy trying to adjust his sloop rigged A-cat there at Islamorada too. Randy's mast was maybe too bendy fore and aft, so the little standoff sprit on the mast's leading edge (to hold his jib out in front of the mast) did not work properly, and the slot would close off. Again there was no particular advantage, expected while watching RS race-- no blinding speed on some leg. It just didn't happen, not unexpected since the straight-board and straight rudder experts were there in force and tuned to their max potential.

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I think the wing becomes a little more interesting when you add foils to the mix and drag reduction becomes more important as soon as you lift off. It would have to be done at a very similar weight to existing rigs+soft sails, and while that is possible, doing so with a rigid wing that can survive a wipeout probably isn't with today's materials. Its certainly an interesting question, and I'm sure Randy will try it on an A at some point, but I suspect we won't be seeing a wing at Sopot.

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I thought a big advantage of a solid multi-element wing was the slot between the elements. I don't know where this rig would fall on a performance scale between say an A-Cat "small" wing mast and a full-on wing. If the full rotation is a big deal, what happens if you just engineer a mast/sail for a normal rig that allows full rotation (like a Laser :-)

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The slotted wing presents some advantage in very low wind, where you seek deseperatly for more HP in your rig.

 

But with today's apparent wind on the A-Cat (i.e), the slotted wing is an hudge extra complexity for a very slight advantage.

 

Sailing at 20 knts down the wind with 12 knts TWS will provide you with around 20 knts apparent wind

Windward in the same conditions, if you flioat you will have 22 knts AW, if you foil at 20 knts you will have 25/28 knts AW.

 

In both cases you are overpowered, even if you consider the max righting moment hypothesis ( =the lift on the windward foil assumed to be 0+ full trapeze crew).

 

The slotted wing would be most usefull in light wind conditions, unfortunatly in these conditions the Reynolds number of the air stream on the wing is half the Reynolds numbers on a sail+teardrop mast, which probably contributes to offset the theorical extra power of the slotted wing.

 

Regarding the futur of the A-Cat rig or all other foiling boats, I would believe it will be all about drag.

 

Cheers

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I build and race solid winged dirtboats. Our rules in the US allow open design based only on sail area. For a high aspect wing design to work optimal more righting moment is needed. Our boats are usually wider and longer to compensate. It's hard to get the most out of a wing of the rules don't allow wiggle room for righting moment. Anyone know what section shaped were used on the Smyth wing?

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On 22/03/2017 at 1:06 PM, xonk1 said:

I continue to be amazed at the opinions of people who have no idea what they are talking about.

This is a discussion Professor xonk1 and the fact that people hide behind silly names doesn't mean they are more or less qualified than you  to voice opinions. I am feeling very Zen and being polite 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Think about the following  design parameters: (1) maximize power, (2) maximize safety without compromising power, (3) maximize convenience -preserve the ability to moor the boat without dropping the wing sail, (4) maximize the flexibility of the sail plane -preserve the ability to reef (5) optimize sail trim --preserve the ability to induce twist in the trailing edge without the complexity of multiple elements or internal controls.

With those parameters in mind it's both a clever and a simple solution to a variety of challenges.   Nothing particularly new, except perhaps the 360 degree rotation, but the combination of all the elements and the simplicity of design is pretty cool.  And --so far at least- it's proved pretty durable and pretty fast.

 

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6 hours ago, Stiletto23 said:

Wing masts are old news. I think the 360" degree rotation is where the innovation is.  Formula 40'has been over 30 kts. 

 

Stiletto, you mean the Formula 40 with the new Smyth wingsail has achieved over 30kt speed?

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  • 2 weeks later...
12 hours ago, lohring said:

The Hubbard designed hulls are upside down on the trailer.

Lohring Miller

Uhhhh... I was kidding. 

 

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Latest episode is up:

Nautical Lore Capercast 48: WING SAILING
http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/multihulls-media/other-multihull-stuff/nautical-lore-capercast-48-wing-sailing/

Quote

Now I’ve actually been there, folks. Under a 62′ Hybrid Wing rig, on a 40′ “beach cat” racing catamaran, with Randy Smyth and Tommy Gonzales with Scott Brown taking pictures.

It’s a transcendent experience for an old shellback to sail effortlessly at speeds in the high twenties, and without hydrofoils yet. I’ll tell you about it in this (and the next) Capercast. Welcome aboard.

 

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I listened to the podcast, very enjoyable. 

The most interesting thing for me was the tale of Randy in the Everglades Challenge, with Szissors +wingsail, surviving a Cb with three funnel clouds hanging from it. When it was approaching, he quickly removed all soft sails and faced it with the rigid wing only. He suffered high winds and big gusts from several directions and could feather the wing very quickly second by second accomodating the gusts, maintaining the boat upright and enough speed to have good rudder control. This was made possible because the wing produced much less drag than a soft sail, and also could be eased much more without luffing/flogging.

If it really works like this, it IS revolutionary... you can do this in any point of sail... so the high wind strategy is much more flexible.

Sorry if this is too obvious, but it just dawned on me what it means

 

another point wich was raised up thread: it can rotate 360 deg only with the rigid wing, not with the soft sail up.

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On 7/28/2017 at 6:26 AM, Stiletto23 said:

It was quite something to see Jim Brown crawling around to th eleeward side of the wing while power reaching to get a better look. The old man and the sea indeed!

Hi Stiletto,

I've listened to the podcast, but can't find any footage... Are you referring to a video, or were you lucky (although luck would've had nothing to do with it) enough to be there in the flesh?

Cheers, ALL@SEA

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Latest podcast is up: http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/multihulls-media/nautical-lore-capercast-49-wing-sailing-part-2/

Quote

WING SAILING (Part 2)

Here is the conclusion, for now, of my infatuation with the Hybrid Wing. There is a lot more to learn about this thing, but I have now had the opportunity to actually sail in a Wing-equipped catamaran, and I hope my description explains why I’ll never get over this thing.

I feel certain it is headed for long term historical — if not hysterical — significance. Listen in to learn why I sing hymns to this revelation.
 -- Jim Brown

 

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  • 1 year later...

I think that what Carcrash was trying to point out with that Morrelli design for Smyth's 60 was that Smyth was already giving some serious thought to the three with standing rigging going to the masthead which would permit a wing to rotate 360 degrees well before he was being given credit for here. Those two single beam trimarans shown don't really apply in that respect although they were pretty far ahead of their time but were predated as well by similar craft. I was in lust for the SEBAGO trifoiler for sure at that time.

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I'm not so sure Carcrash, if I'm interpreting the drawing correctly there is a masthead backstay but no sidestays, only diamonds in the profile drawing. The plan shows lines/stays? from float/beam connection to main hull transom. Okay and granted, he may have been thinking of his masthead modern setup?

60x60 foot Sebago was way ahead of its time?

smythe60.jpg

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  • 5 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Eagle is beautiful... 

I'm excited to see details... neat to see the rig weathercocked idle at anchor. But I'd LOVE to see close-up details of that masthead.

Randii

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  • 3 weeks later...

Jim Brown's latest "slide show" on the hybrid wing and Eagle 53:

Quote

Hybrid wing prototypes for Eagle Class 53 Catamaran on Caliente, a Forumla 40 catamaran, and Randy Smyth's Everglades Challenge trimaran Sizzor.  Eagle 53 model at Annapolis Boat Show, October, 2018, assembly full size at Derecktor shipyard, Fort Lauderdale, Florida.  Bow and hull shape, launch and sailing from St. John and St. Thomas, USVI.
 -- Commentary by Jim Brown

 

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On 8/24/2018 at 4:21 PM, Groucho Marx said:

I'm not so sure Carcrash, if I'm interpreting the drawing correctly there is a masthead backstay but no sidestays, only diamonds in the profile drawing. The plan shows lines/stays? from float/beam connection to main hull transom. Okay and granted, he may have been thinking of his masthead modern setup?

60x60 foot Sebago was way ahead of its time?

smythe60.jpg

The shrouds go straight out to the sides: the line you think represents the diamonds is actually the shroud. Other wise the mast does not stand up, of course, as diamonds won't hold a mast upright. The backstay was needed because the aka to the amas was swept somewhat forward as that is where the buoyancy needs to be, and to reduce air drag slightly to windward, and increase lift to leeward. The rake made all the angles from the masthead to each cable (forestay, cap shrouds, backstay) more or less equal. This is not speculation.

 

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On 4/8/2019 at 10:30 AM, ProaSailor said:

The full audio-only podcast has now been posted, different from the video sound track:

Nautical Lore Capercast 84: THE FLEDGLING EAGLE
http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/multihulls-media/other-multihull-stuff/nautical-lore-capercast-84-the-fledgling-eagle/

I don't know how that happened but I just noticed that link was broken - sorry!

http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/multihulls-media/other-multihull-stuff/nautical-lore-capercast-84-the-fledgling-eagle/

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9 hours ago, carcrash said:

 

Okay, understood, masthead shrouds not diamonds. But such a rigging design, with shrouds in line with mast step (or even a little forward) --- are more than slightly dangerous (imo) because you are relying on the backstay (or runners) to keep the rig erect. Am talking from my own stupid experiences in having the shroud bases not far aft of rotating mast base, fooling around with rudder on transom, boat gybes, no runner set on the new side, lumpy sea ...  and down comes mast. But okay again, on the Morelli design with the lack of sail roach, the backstay  is permanent, no runners. But you are losing sail area?

Morelli copy.jpg

frogstern.jpg

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On 4/10/2019 at 1:08 AM, Groucho Marx said:

Okay, understood, masthead shrouds not diamonds. But such a rigging design, with shrouds in line with mast step (or even a little forward) --- are more than slightly dangerous (imo) because you are relying on the backstay (or runners) to keep the rig erect. Am talking from my own stupid experiences in having the shroud bases not far aft of rotating mast base, fooling around with rudder on transom, boat gybes, no runner set on the new side, lumpy sea ...  and down comes mast. But okay again, on the Morelli design with the lack of sail roach, the backstay  is permanent, no runners. But you are losing sail area?

Morelli copy.jpg

frogstern.jpg

You will notice the reduction in sail area.  Especially in light airs.  (I got tired of short handed sailing with dual running backs, and cut down the main roach (which had been a really roachey pinhead.  Now I don’t have mess with the top running backs, but unless I use a 165% drifter, light wind is no fun.)  Next sail will be a small square head, and the 1st reef will get the sail under the top runners (when I’m feeling lazy), and then go for the ‘real’ reef at 12k like I used to.  Experience and money....<_<

This is for a very skinny and light 40’ mono.  Just not crisp in the light any more without the big roach.  Twist isn’t as powerful either.

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Are they able to get the right shape of the top of the soft sail (the "flap")? Looks like the top more or less follows the air stream. With an aspect ratio of the soft sail of more than 10:1 I assume it's hard to get the right trim ("flap angle") up there.

Isn't it hard/impossible to trim the main if you can't see it when standing at the winches (under the roof)?

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The Main and jib are both going to have some minor surgery to fine tune them. But they are not far off from where they need to be. The crew is just sailing the boat now and getting a feel for what she can do. There are so many gears with this rig she hasn’t even scratched her potential. It’s true that is is hard to get the trim just right from the winch station, but that only matters when its super windy and you’re scared to cleat the main and look. There are basic marks on the line to indicate where fully sheeted is and you can go off of that, but in windy conditions (it was windier than it looks in the video) where you don't want to lock off the sheet you need someone outboard to call the trim if you want it perfect. There are two small windows above the winch pod that you can see the main and wing through, but you can’t trim while looking at the same time. The video is actually a montage of four different days of sailing. In the three where I was there the breeze was 15-20 for two and 15-25 for one and the seas were pretty big, I’d guess around +/-  5 feet once you got away from land a bit. Uphill it was wet for sure, especially leeward of the winchpod, not to bad from the steering station. Downhill she really glided, enough lift with the c boards that the bows mostly stayed out of the waves and when they did sail into one they punched through without creating a wall of water and we stayed pretty darn dry actually. One of the most impressive things besides blinding speed was actually how well she depowered. With a reef in letting the wing just feather you could really slow her down. The wing has so little drag that you can tune with nuance I hadn’t experienced before (i’ve Never sailed a fully winged boat). Also her manner at anchor was really cool, while all the other cats around were sailing around on their moorings (as cats do, and I’m a cat guy) the eagle was stock still. Tied up stern too with the wing feathered 180” and locked off she held position perfectly. A nice feature really. It will be really exciting to see what she does once outfitted with T-foils. The plan as I understand it is to NOT foil the boat with the c-boards (though you definitely could) and just figure out the hybrid wing for awhile. Then once the crew feels like they have mastered those settings introduce the final element, the articulating t-foils and make the eagle fly. Tommy is being really deliberate in each step of the development on this project. His words are “crawl, walk, run, fly”. I’d guess they are at the slow jog stage of development.

D6700D84-7020-46C4-B88E-10D2F512139B.png

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