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34 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

if Prada have moved to their biggest foils and are now on them ( locked in) for tomorrow’s breeze that could be a bit of a test if it blows through 

Maybe they've worked some fluid magic with their foils...  I first noticed an unusual concave leeward side curve on the trailing area of a sail in some top down pics, but wrote it off as a tight leech. Then again in a pic of LR's foil flap:

image.thumb.png.57ca4ef4abd0e671bd77d0d177877a5f.png

And then again yesterday when I picked up a bird's feather...

image.png.cd8330a7308c3b1baec84f94cfbaa00c.png

Maybe I just have OCD.  :wacko:

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1 hour ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

It seems LR have used a new foil on the port side in racing on Day 2

So the new foil on the port side is used when on starboard, ie when JS is helming.   

I wonder how much of that is just the preference of the Helm, ie are FB's numbers better with one foil and JS's better with the other??? 

Or is it more that they can have a wider range for their foils?   Ie was there one side or the other that they preferred to attempt a takeoff?  I saw a link to a page full of charts of the boat data, but I've lost it.... if somebody can find that for me, I'll try to work it out.

Or is it still just development, and they need more data to compare their foils.    I think they have 1 more set they can build?

In tough conditions like day 2, I think having 2 helms has to help a little as you can decompress and do a mini mental review of your performance before taking it back and going again!   I know I've been in plenty of light/fluky air races when having just 30 seconds to breath, look around and refocus would have helped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Incidentally, in the Italian TV commentary the Persico guy confirmed that foils are steel, machined by another firm nearby. Except for the third set that, if I understood correctly, has been machined in NZ but still under the supervision of the same Italian firm

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On 1/8/2021 at 2:52 PM, chesirecat said:

Will you be continuing with two helmsmen (Jimmy Spithill and Francesco Bruni)?
Yes, certainly, that's the way we work and we're pleased with it. It allows us to be flexible and react quickly in terms of tactics and strategy and in particular in close contact racing. This causes a big challenge communicating with one another, so that the one not on tack, who is in charge of the foil can concentrate on how the boat flies, while having a good idea of what it will be like when he is back at the helm.

Will someone articulate for me why this alternating helms is going to work. pros and cons?

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2 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Will someone articulate for me why this alternating helms is going to work. pros and cons?

IMHO:

Pros,

  • You get kind of 2 boat testing as you can compare side to side. The data and competition will drive performance of both helm and foil control.
  • less running around on the boat. 
  • focus'd helm during manoeuvres.
  • Two minds contribute to strategy and execution
  • Helms get moments to decompress a little and perhaps a little less red mist descends when things go bad. 

Cons

  • Each helm has only half the practise time
  • Less continuity of strategy
  • Jimmy can't understand it when they say "Porca Miseria!"
  • If one helm is better than the other than you end up sub optimal.  But if data showed that consistently, then they would change helms

 

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11 minutes ago, sfigone said:

IMHO:

Pros,

  • You get kind of 2 boat testing as you can compare side to side. The data and competition will drive performance of both helm and foil control.
  • less running around on the boat. 
  • focus'd helm during manoeuvres.
  • Two minds contribute to strategy and execution
  • Helms get moments to decompress a little and perhaps a little less red mist descends when things go bad. 

Cons

  • Each helm has only half the practise time
  • Less continuity of strategy
  • Jimmy can't understand it when they say "Porca Miseria!"
  • If one helm is better than the other than you end up sub optimal.  But if data showed that consistently, then they would change helms

 

I can see the advantage about time running around the boat. First avoids falling over, second continuity of control and observation as things are moving so fast. 

Surely best to just go with the numbers. Look at VMG over several days and then choose the fastest. 

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54 minutes ago, sfigone said:

IMHO:

Pros,

  • You get kind of 2 boat testing as you can compare side to side. The data and competition will drive performance of both helm and foil control. Once they have gathered the data......then should they switch to one as helm and one as tactics?
  • I do see the advantage in building tactical skills because someone who has helmed extensively may make a better tactician because they have a feel for what the boat can do.
  • less running around on the boat. Yes but not sure how significant that is.
  • focus'd helm during manoeuvres.
  • Two minds contribute to strategy and execution Yes. But how is that different from Ben and Giles.Helm and tactician
  • Helms get moments to decompress a little and perhaps a little less red mist descends when things go bad. 

Cons

  • Each helm has only half the practise time
  • Less continuity of strategy
  • Jimmy can't understand it when they say "Porca Miseria!"
  • If one helm is better than the other than you end up sub optimal.  But if data showed that consistently, then they would change helms  If we assume both as good as each other, then the question is simply , would either one of them be better if one of them just helmed and one just did tactics. 

 

They have obviously given it a lot of thought and decided it works.......unless they are both good and didnt want to hurt feelings.

What they may do is study which combo works best and not based on who is better driver.  For example they might decide that Francesco drives , not because e is better driver but because Jimmy has been doing better tactically and they want him looking aroud or vice versa Jimmy may end up driving because FB has better tactical skills.

 

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Listening into the stern cams on LR, FB is calling most of the tactics - with input from Jimmy and the trimmer. I think FB is the Numero Uno on the boat. Jimmy's input seems more suggestive, than commanding - not always, but that's the impression I get. 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Listening into the stern cams on LR, FB is calling most of the tactics - with input from Jimmy and the trimmer. I think FB is the Numero Uno on the boat. Jimmy's input seems more suggestive, than commanding - not always, but that's the impression I get. 

So possibly one reason for the combo is that FB likes the time to look around. They tried it and discovered it works very well. ? 

One of them has to make the final call on tactics. Is it always FB or does it depend who is on the helm?

 

 

 

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L-R: stbd and port foils, taken on Friday.

Look quite similar in shape and area but the port foil has slightly less curved leading edge, smaller, slightly angled, more highly-polished flaps

LR-foils1.jpg

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14 minutes ago, weta27 said:

L-R: stbd and port foils, taken on Friday.

Look quite similar in shape and area but the port foil has smaller, slightly angled flaps and is more highly-polished

LR-foils1.jpg

I love the woolmark.

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6 hours ago, IPLore said:

One of them has to make the final call on tactics. Is it always FB or does it depend who is on the helm?

FB and Jimmy seem to work well together. Decisions do depend on who is steering at the time, but FB is the most vocal on the boat.

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New chapter in the backstays war. I don’t understand what they’re planning. Maybe this last interpretation leave some room to hide them ? Seems a little less categorical on the matter 
 

https://docs.google.com/a/acofficials.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NDUzOGE0N2E1OGM4NWNjYg

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Jimmy has always been a team player and more vocal at pressers than on the boat. Seems like good attributes for a helmsman.

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Its pretty clear he's either learned some humility or had it very clearly spelled out to him by Bertelli/whoever that he tone it down.

Or as I write that, it occurs maybe it was the other way around: the dickwad persona was part of his Orifice employment?

 

With the split helms: is leeward 'off' guy taking over doing foil?

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No mention of software issues on LR, but their early tack away from the left boundary when left was clearly favored, followed by a boundary violation on the right side makes me wonder if their data were skewed. May never know as it would be bad form to bitch about it now.

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LR looked fabulous in the abandoned race and the start of three rerun. But I think the wind moderated a bit (before sqwall) and she looked a little underdone then.  Maybe could have had a touch late jib so she have been more on the edge in pressure, but better in the lulls?

Either way, she doesn't look far off at all.

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4 hours ago, Varan said:

No mention of software issues on LR, but their early tack away from the left boundary when left was clearly favored, followed by a boundary violation on the right side makes me wonder if their data were skewed. May never know as it would be bad form to bitch about it now.

FB confirmed the software issues of last race to ita press and that also impacted their ability to trim boat properly.

He said also at the start they only had a timer

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Max Sirena interview about this first Round Robin:

- They made a lot of mistakes, but the boat performed really well both in light and strong winds. 
- First race against Ineos was really good. In the second race they should cover more, they didn’t do it because they were sailing really fast, they didn’t want to loose speed in order to cover. Lesson learned the hard way.

- In the second race they started without info about the position of the boundaries, They had also some failures, Pietro Sibello (mainsail trimmer) didn’t swap side since one of the mainsail trim console broke 

- They’re happy about the point earned, but they also feel sorry for AM capsize 

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The lack of reliable boundary info is a big deal.  It did not impact the result of any race yet, but easily could.  

If they can call off a race due to a windshift, should they consider calling off a race where a team is "unfairly handicapped" by lack of boundary info? 

Alternately,  should they disable the feed to the other boat, make them rely on the " boundary light" and cut teams slack for close calls on boundaries.

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12 hours ago, Zaal said:

Max Sirena interview about this first Round Robin:

- They made a lot of mistakes, but the boat performed really well both in light and strong winds. 
- First race against Ineos was really good. In the second race they should cover more, they didn’t do it because they were sailing really fast, they didn’t want to loose speed in order to cover. Lesson learned the hard way.

- In the second race they started without info about the position of the boundaries, They had also some failures, Pietro Sibello (mainsail trimmer) didn’t swap side since one of the mainsail trim console broke 

- They’re happy about the point earned, but they also feel sorry for AM capsize 

Wondering if the number of tactical errors made by LR can be related to not having a single person making calls. They claim that the helmsman currently driving makes decisions: it may be against his "instinct" to call a tack to cover and give up the helm. But then again, they did tack too early on one occasion at least...

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16 hours ago, P Flados said:

The lack of reliable boundary info is a big deal.  It did not impact the result of any race yet, but easily could.  

If they can call off a race due to a windshift, should they consider calling off a race where a team is "unfairly handicapped" by lack of boundary info? 

Alternately,  should they disable the feed to the other boat, make them rely on the " boundary light" and cut teams slack for close calls on boundaries.

No. If bits of your boat aren’t working that’s it. 

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On 1/16/2021 at 9:24 AM, MaxHugen said:

Maybe they've worked some fluid magic with their foils...  I first noticed an unusual concave leeward side curve on the trailing area of a sail in some top down pics, but wrote it off as a tight leech. Then again in a pic of LR's foil flap:

image.thumb.png.57ca4ef4abd0e671bd77d0d177877a5f.png

And then again yesterday when I picked up a bird's feather...

image.png.cd8330a7308c3b1baec84f94cfbaa00c.png

Maybe I just have OCD.  :wacko:

Laminar flow airfoils do sometime have a concave shape towards the trailing edge.

fx76L120-64012hybrid.jpg.fefbae9b2ddc1e6ff2d2686e3ad45965.jpg

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59 minutes ago, erdb said:

Laminar flow airfoils do sometime have a concave shape towards the trailing edge.

fx76L120-64012hybrid.jpg.fefbae9b2ddc1e6ff2d2686e3ad45965.jpg

What's the foil ID of that one? I've searched but haven't found any yet...

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Luna Rossa weekend review, including that 'hook or no hook' decision, which, I believe, is kind of a microcosm of their wider issues with their set up. 

Feel free to rip our opinions apart!

 

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Interesting Mozzy.

I hadn't picked up on the chat being that of 2 helms rather than tactician and helm, but I see your point.

On the idea that LR look fast and its easy- it seems to me that they have a nice wide groove, so they found that groove early and find it consistently. Whereas UK designed a boat with a narrower groove, so it take them a while and a few adjustments to get it right, but now they have they are faster (downwind at least). So the UK boat is harder to sail, but faster when they get it spot on.

Make sense?

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Yes, and I think we saw upwind in the waves, INEOS did have good spurts of pace, but struggled to hold that groove as well. 

I do think the LR communications are pretty decent for the majority, it's just those crunch situation, the leeward helm needs to be thinking 'what additional information would I want as a helm', rather than 'what would I be doing if I was helming'. 

I might crunch through the comms on all the boats and do a bit of an analysis of who says what, about what topic and when during the race. Chart the information flow of different boats. 

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On 1/17/2021 at 12:09 PM, Zaal said:

New chapter in the backstays war. I don’t understand what they’re planning. Maybe this last interpretation leave some room to hide them ? Seems a little less categorical on the matter 
 

https://docs.google.com/a/acofficials.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NDUzOGE0N2E1OGM4NWNjYg

Seems that since the backstays must be fitted, someone is trying to see if they can just leave them slack or perhaps tether them out of the way. Similarly if they don't use a code zero (or whatever they're calling the sail set on the bowsprit) then they'd like to remove bobstay. I have no idea why that matters.

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1 minute ago, RobG said:

Seems that since the backstays must be fitted, someone is trying to see if they can just leave them slack or perhaps tether them out of the way. Similarly if they don't use a code zero (or whatever they're calling the sail set on the bowsprit) then they'd like to remove bobstay. I have no idea why that matters.

Just a bit more drag reduction I guess. And a little bit more weight out of the ends.

I do wonder whether we will see a C0 in a race though. Will NZ surprise us in the finals because its not looking like the challengers will

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On 1/17/2021 at 12:24 AM, MaxHugen said:

And then again yesterday when I picked up a bird's feather...

image.png.cd8330a7308c3b1baec84f94cfbaa00c.png

Maybe I just have OCD.  :wacko:

Bird feathers don't do 50 kn underwater. And it's a small part of a wing that fits together with its neighbours a bit like roof tiles, so it's shape isn't necessarily the same as the overall wing. B)

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Interesting Mozzy.

I hadn't picked up on the chat being that of 2 helms rather than tactician and helm, but I see your point.

On the idea that LR look fast and its easy- it seems to me that they have a nice wide groove, so they found that groove early and find it consistently. Whereas UK designed a boat with a narrower groove, so it take them a while and a few adjustments to get it right, but now they have they are faster (downwind at least). So the UK boat is harder to sail, but faster when they get it spot on.

Make sense?

I think this is a good point. How I was thinking about it was LR can be fast in a wider wind range with a given sail setup. In the abandoned race, I think INEOS was similar speeds when the wind was up, but when the wind dropped a bit, LR was faster.

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23 minutes ago, RobG said:

Bird feathers don't do 50 kn underwater. And it's a small part of a wing that fits together with its neighbours a bit like roof tiles, so it's shape isn't necessarily the same as the overall wing. B)

Yes, I wondered how it would fit in with it's neighbours. Just the first time I've seen a feather with such a profile. Curiousity getting the better of me probably.

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Just a bit more drag reduction I guess. And a little bit more weight out of the ends.

I do wonder whether we will see a C0 in a race though. Will NZ surprise us in the finals because its not looking like the challengers will

Dunno,  before this last series it sure seemed like boats were able to foil in the light with a jib, I was pretty certain that we wouldn't see zeroes, but am far less confident now! Does explain why NZ was spending so much time on it while other teams were trying to push the jib limit down. 

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4 hours ago, Marinatrix447 said:

Francesco che uomo adorabile!

Indeed. Years ago, I was fortunate enough to be seated next to him at a dinner, and he is exactly as it transpires in the video, very accessible - the very opposite of BA, whose aggressiveness even on land (Trapani) was palpable

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16 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

No, they’ve found out that there’s a significant VMG advantage in dispensing with mast, sails and rigging and replacing foil bulbs with electric motors/propellers hooked up to the FCS batteries. Expect a request of interpretation soon

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43 minutes ago, Zaal said:

Any news in the backstays war ? 

they keep asking and getting told to fuck off, two requests went in before racing started and they go turned down 

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10 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Anyone found out what the real motive was to head out without a mast? I would have thought foil testing would be better in normal config unless they are doing other mods to the mast and or boom etc and due to time limitations can do the foil testing without these?

P.S. It was said they would be fitting slightly smaller foils so this makes the most sense

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1 minute ago, terrafirma said:

Anyone found out what the real motive was to head out without a mast? I would have thought foil testing would be better in normal config unless they are doing other mods to the mast and or boom etc and due to time limitations can do the foil testing without these?

ETNZ apparently went out today with no mast and tested a foil, so I assume they are Testing one foil and comparing to a current removing all other variables?

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6 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Anyone found out what the real motive was to head out without a mast? I would have thought foil testing would be better in normal config unless they are doing other mods to the mast and or boom etc and due to time limitations can do the foil testing without these?

P.S. It was said they would be fitting slightly smaller foils so this makes the most sense

If they are only testing a foil on one side, and using telemetry to compare with the old foil on the other side then it would be better not to have a mast which would cause different loadings on the 2 foils, either because of lateral wind, or because even small roll in the boat causes the top of the mast to move quite a lot.

Without the mast it will be far more even

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New arbitration 

https://docs.google.com/a/acofficials.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NGQ0MTBjMmQ4NDUyZjkyYQ

So they can add fairings to the mast, but cannot put backstays inside those fairings. Correct ? 

I'm pretty sure this isn't the last chapter though.

 

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So they are resigned to having to use one on each tack under tension but want to hide the slack one in the little fairing, when they tension it it pulls free.

either this is a huge distraction fir something else or they are thinking it’s vital to boat performance and they are desperate to remove/hide the back stays. 

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Picking up on the feathery theme from upthread, I saw this post on gust response in birds' wings on the brilliant blog Fuck Yeah, Fluid Dynamics:
 
"In flight, birds must adjust quickly to wind gusts or risk crashing. Research shows that the structure of birds’ wings enables them to respond faster than their brains can. The wings essentially act like a suspension system, with the shoulder joint allowing them to lift rapidly in response to vertical gusts. This motion keeps the bird’s head and torso steady, so they can focus on more complex tasks like landing, obstacle avoidance, and prey capture." 
 
I have absolutely no idea how you would engineer something like this into an AC75 rig, but it might have helped American Magic in that bearaway.
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41 minutes ago, SeanPurdy said:
Picking up on the feathery theme from upthread, I saw this post on gust response in birds' wings on the brilliant blog Fuck Yeah, Fluid Dynamics:
 
"In flight, birds must adjust quickly to wind gusts or risk crashing. Research shows that the structure of birds’ wings enables them to respond faster than their brains can. The wings essentially act like a suspension system, with the shoulder joint allowing them to lift rapidly in response to vertical gusts. This motion keeps the bird’s head and torso steady, so they can focus on more complex tasks like landing, obstacle avoidance, and prey capture." 
 
I have absolutely no idea how you would engineer something like this into an AC75 rig, but it might have helped American Magic in that bearaway.

Damn clever, those seagulls!

I also read that birds use their wing tip feathers to counter yaw, which is why they aren't born with a vertical stabiliser.

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

So they are resigned to having to use one on each tack under tension but want to hide the slack one in the little fairing, when they tension it it pulls free.

either this is a huge distraction fir something else or they are thinking it’s vital to boat performance and they are desperate to remove/hide the back stays. 

I don't think they are resigned to using one on each tack. They have to be designed so that they could be tightened into use. Hence their comment in that interpretation reuest that if it were in the fairing, and they tightened it, it would come out and go tight. But I think they are without any intention of doing so because getting it back in would be very difficult

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3 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I don't think they are resigned to using one on each tack. They have to be designed so that they could be tightened into use. Hence their comment in that interpretation reuest that if it were in the fairing, and they tightened it, it would come out and go tight. But I think they are without any intention of doing so because getting it back in would be very difficult

Which they aren’t allowed to do as it would be a fairing.. 

so thankfully we get more Italian tantrums :lol:

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57 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Which they aren’t allowed to do as it would be a fairing.. 

so thankfully we get more Italian tantrums :lol:

So, they can put the fairings on the mast, but as soon as they put the backstays behind them, they also becomes backstay fairings (despite not being attached to the backstay). 

I read it as back to square one for the Italians... I hope they're not dedicating too much time to this, as I feel it's a lost cause. Sure, have the coffee boy submit interp requests as a distraction for other teams, but I hope the real design team have refocussed elsewhere. 

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39 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

So, they can put the fairings on the mast, but as soon as they put the backstays behind them, they also becomes backstay fairings (despite not being attached to the backstay). 

I read it as back to square one for the Italians... I hope they're not dedicating too much time to this, as I feel it's a lost cause. Sure, have the coffee boy submit interp requests as a distraction for other teams, but I hope the real design team have refocussed elsewhere. 

I agree, 

given the multiple attempts though I think they are betting big on this and now finding out that they are having the door repeatedly closed. i th9nk it started off as not a big deal, certainly max when asked in a presser (during xmas cup?) I think he kinda shrugged but with the increasing requests I think it carries more weight than he wanted to let on, almost certainly one of the reasons they protested Britania for the hole that wasn't a hole.

 

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Question is why though

1) Drag reduction? Well yes, but they are investing a lot of effort in this, more than would seem warranted, and if they do succeed, others will copy it easily

2) They have a problem with the runner ease and doing away with them or hiding them would cure it? I haven't seen any evidence of that on LR

3) It takes up crew resource during tacks and gybes and they want that person doing something else?

Any other ideas?

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drag, 

sail set up? if the sails have been cut to be tuned and work with a set up that has no runner tension I guess it would be sub optimal to have to tune them differently  in terms of shaping and twist.

if the under deck boom is giving them the leverage to do what they need then why have the runners, if they were using the runners then the under deck set up is carting around a lot of stuff that isn't needed + extra weight and systems

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Could also be that the rear corners of the stern are structurally not built to support runner loads, so if their rig does not need them, and their structure does not even allow them to be used in the normal way, it's perfectly logical to try to find ways to hide them away aerodynamically

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1 minute ago, alphafb552 said:

Could also be that the rear corners of the stern are structurally not built to support runner loads, so if their rig does not need them, and their structure does not even allow them to be used in the normal way, it's perfectly logical to try to find ways to hide them away aerodynamically

If this or other design aspect, then why did they not ask the interpretations before they had built boat 2 and were committed to what is now looking a little like a blind alley

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8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

If this or other design aspect, then why did they not ask the interpretations before they had built boat 2 and were committed to what is now looking a little like a blind alley

Wouldn't be the first time a team got blindsided by seemingly obvious rules...

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30 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Question is why though

1) Drag reduction? Well yes, but they are investing a lot of effort in this, more than would seem warranted, and if they do succeed, others will copy it easily

2) They have a problem with the runner ease and doing away with them or hiding them would cure it? I haven't seen any evidence of that on LR

3) It takes up crew resource during tacks and gybes and they want that person doing something else?

Any other ideas?

4) Mast bend flattens the camber up high too much.  :rolleyes:

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22 minutes ago, Zaal said:

i thinkk it basically is saying, you don't have to have the runnig back stays attached while racing which is what Prada want 

the issue though is that if they are not attached what Prada do with them? they cant hide them in pockets, in-between the sail skins of down either side of the mast as that has already been ruled against.

 

also the attachments to the mast and the back corner must still be present and the system be capable of being connected to comply with the sail plan and supplied rigging directives.

so while theoretically you don't have to have them attached during racing configuration there isn't (at the moment) a way around the rest of the requirements?

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27 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Could also be that the rear corners of the stern are structurally not built to support runner loads, so if their rig does not need them, and their structure does not even allow them to be used in the normal way, it's perfectly logical to try to find ways to hide them away aerodynamically

one can hope ..

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

If that were it they could just leave them there and apply minimal tension

Just kiddin!

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just remembered that LR had several issues on the bear-aways on day 1. I don't think this was caused by the leeward runner, but I wonder if it might be evidence of them needing the crew for something else rather than easing runners (not that they have to be eased far).

But any ideas what LR's problems were?

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8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

just remembered that LR had several issues on the bear-aways on day 1. I don't think this was caused by the leeward runner, but I wonder if it might be evidence of them needing the crew for something else rather than easing runners (not that they have to be eased far).

But any ideas what LR's problems were?

Big fat light air foils/rudder being asked to do tighter radius turns than they want to.

they were splashy on the mark rounding on day three as well 

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6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

just remembered that LR had several issues on the bear-aways on day 1. I don't think this was caused by the leeward runner, but I wonder if it might be evidence of them needing the crew for something else rather than easing runners (not that they have to be eased far).

But any ideas what LR's problems were?

which side was their new foil on? Issues bearing away were all on port tack (so starboard foil)

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According to Vittorio and Pietro LR have new foils indeed. They don't know if they are Version 2 modified or Version 3, but they're a lot smaller. 

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