Jump to content

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Not sure that is correct.  He claims he is just moving internal ballast to external.  

It does bring up the question of whether the bottom of the boat is strong enough to handle the additional weight and heeled torque of the enlarged keel.  It seems like it should be but whether it really is is something for a NA to consider.

Ahhh. That makes sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Why? Leo has referred to this several times over the years. Technology has changed, but this boat is still being made by hand. However, the imperative and motivation back then, was and is no

I think Leo decided he liked the boat with rot, tradition and lineage included. He didn’t like the mangled foundations and decided that if he was going to replace the frames, he wasn’t just gonna copy

Thanks for all your interest and support, all!

Posted Images

He has good relations with the bronze pouring guys. I don't think he's short of resources.

A complete re-do needs a continuous pour - interruptions create weak lines along the joint.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, longy said:

A complete re-do needs a continuous pour - interruptions create weak lines along the joint.

I know that's true for modern keels that hang from embedded bolts

In the case of Tally Ho, I think I remember seeing the keel-boats pounded out through the bottom of the lead, which makes me think the bolts go all the way through.  If that's the case... would weak lines be less important, since the bolts would hold in compression rather than tension?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I know that's true for modern keels that hang from embedded bolts

In the case of Tally Ho, I think I remember seeing the keel-boats pounded out through the bottom of the lead, which makes me think the bolts go all the way through.  If that's the case... would weak lines be less important, since the bolts would hold in compression rather than tension?

It would mean a lot more bolts are needed to prevent a section from cracking and pulling away from the hull.  If you look at the original keel in the video (they are fill up the old bolt holes with lead) it looks like there weren't very many bolts.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My 36 foot boat has 4400 pounds of lead with long bronze rods making up the keel bolts. There are nuts at the bottom of the lead and over the floors. There are 11 bolts spaced every 13 inches across 5+ feet. Most are two bolts side by side with a single at the front. I don't know how much lead he has but it is about as long as the boat. He has lots of room for enough bolts to hold it up.  The keel bolts will definitely be in tension but the lead itself will be in compression and as long as the lower part is solid, it will hold up whatever he would add to the top.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, allene222 said:

My 36 foot boat has 4400 pounds of lead with long bronze rods making up the keel bolts. There are nuts at the bottom of the lead and over the floors. There are 11 bolts spaced every 13 inches across 5+ feet. Most are two bolts side by side with a single at the front. I don't know how much lead he has but it is about as long as the boat. He has lots of room for enough bolts to hold it up.  The keel bolts will definitely be in tension but the lead itself will be in compression and as long as the lower part is solid, it will hold up whatever he would add to the top.

Exactly, and the problem is that the original lower part has cracks, so it isn't solid.  Add in some stress on the lower part from the bolt compression and you have a recipe for crack extension and failure.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Melting the existing keel and re-pouring it will be a major undertaking. Small wonder Leo is dispirited in that video.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I love it how everybody in the comments section of the video in Youtuve doctly recommend: "just" repour the whole thing, the old lead and the new lead, together.

Not having a fucking clue of how much work that is!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Without rewatching the video, isn't the current keel 8 tons and they were going about about adding about two tons to it? So they need to do about four times more melting to re-pour the keel? So you do have to make a complete mould from wood but it's not a factor of ten more melting and pouring.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Laurent said:

I love it how everybody in the comments section of the video in Youtuve doctly recommend: "just" repour the whole thing, the old lead and the new lead, together.

Not having a fucking clue of how much work that is!

Big job, but it's gotta be at least one order of magnitude less work than casting and finishing dozens of floors and knees.

And way better than forever worrying if the wonky keel will fall off.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To be clear, I am not arguing that technically, remelting the whole thing and starting from scratch might be the most sound solution, but man, he has to cut into pieces something like 8 tons of lead, make a mold, re-melt it and pour it in one go. I can understand why he is hesitating about it...  It seems to me that melting and casting so much lead is not something to take lightly... (see what I did, here???)

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Cutting up the old keel sounds like a hazardous proposition by itself. How would you even do that?

I am not sure why people are worrying about the keel falling off. It will have like 20 bolts holding it in. If it broke in half, there would be 10 bolts holding on each half. And it isn't going to break in half because it will be bolted in and can't move. This not some racer with a fin keel and a bulb held on with two rusting bolts. Maybe they call it corrosion instead of rusting in stainless but whatever...  The guy worries too much. Remember how he looked when the guy told him there were no sixteenths in boat building.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They may be able to slide the old keel up with the big Mikita circular saw. It's lead remember. And handling all that solid lead is not really dangerous though you want to control the swarf. Recall that generations of newspaper printers worked with molten lead every day without problems. It's the find dust, and more importantly, dissolved lead, or worse, lead salts, that you really have to worry about. Also, they can pour in stages as once they have a complete mould then they don't have to worry about re-melting the previously poured parts. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

For a group of people who re-cast all the floors, knees etc, why did they even try keeping the old ballast keel and not cast a new one?

Yeah it's huge... but it'd be arguably easier than a lot of work they have already done.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having seen the effort that they put into the floors and knees, I expect Leo will look for, and find, a full repour solution.

And then polish the keel before fitting it. (B))

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Foiling Optimist said:

They may be able to slide the old keel up with the big Mikita circular saw. It's lead remember. And handling all that solid lead is not really dangerous though you want to control the swarf. Recall that generations of newspaper printers worked with molten lead every day without problems. It's the find dust, and more importantly, dissolved lead, or worse, lead salts, that you really have to worry about. Also, they can pour in stages as once they have a complete mould then they don't have to worry about re-melting the previously poured parts. 

Obviously there are many ways you could cut it up but I don't see how they could capture 100% of the lead dust created by the saw. I think they would need to cut it with some monster metal shear.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Black Sox said:

And then polish the keel before fitting it. (B))

Maybe that's the solution - pour the keel in segments, with elegantly-fitted scarf joints.  And then polish it.

:P

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, longy said:

Lead cuts really well with a chain saw. It spits out big hunks of lead sawdust, easily captured with a large plastic tarp.

Yup, have used ye ole chain saw on lead several times.  Quick and effective although with the proviso that a chain saw is an inherently unsafe piece of power equipment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Quick and effective 

Yup.  Once cut a "window" in the keel of a 3/4-tonner as part of a rating optimization program.  Pulled about 200 pounds of lead out at a carefully calculated spot designed to raise the CG (tweak the measured RM) a bit without affecting fore-and-aft trim.

Took far less time to cut out the lead than it did to fill and fair the resulting hole.

Was amused (?) by the owner's comment about the use of a chainsaw... or, as he phrased it, "an amazing amount of destruction in a hand-held package".

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/5/2021 at 1:28 PM, Mambo Kings said:

I dont think a trolley could sustain the weight and it would be very hard to move. 

I think he worries unnecessarily about fairing the keel. Lead is easy to work. That will be the least of his problems.

So on the question of build new keel vs add to existing keel. It will need to be an enormous mold. Melting the existing keel is a very big undertaking.  He will need a massive new pig , even if he pours in sections. If he does build a new keel, he might want to think about shape and weight.

He is adding a lot of weight to TH. Heavier timbers, bigger mast and much heavier keel. I hope she sits on her lines nicely.

 

Except, he basically did build a mold the first time the size of the keel, it just didn't have a bottom. Easy to see the failure mode in hindsight, that lead in the pig generates quite the PSI at the flow end. Maybe some sort of distribution plate under the spigot to flare the lead out?  Stand way back....

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Mid said:

Re cast

Yes. @Cristoforo had it right:

 

On 7/5/2021 at 10:18 AM, Cristoforo said:

He is a perfectionist with OCD, There is no question he will re-pour the entire keel. He is just going thru the rationalization process. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Leo,

Since the beginning of the last video i was wondering why taking such a big job in one go. Excuse me for giving my two pennies worth of thinking.

You and your team admirably put thousands of painstaking hours so far, without rushing any job and cutting any corners. I was thinking why melting all that lead and pouring in one go, instead of continously melting smaller bits where two guys carrying it by hand can pour into the mold without worrying about what can go wrong.

Considering all the time spent for preparation, precautions and what not of handling tons of lead  it might perhaps take a few days longer, but what is it compared to all the work done so far?

The second thought i had was to drill many many holes into the existing keel and place bolts into them to be encapsulated by the new lead. This would help any voids which may exist to be filled by lead and more importantly provide some mechanical fastening between the two layers. 

Good Luck,with your magnificient project.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/5/2021 at 4:33 PM, Rain Man said:

Not sure that is correct.  He claims he is just moving internal ballast to external.  

It does bring up the question of whether the bottom of the boat is strong enough to handle the additional weight and heeled torque of the enlarged keel.  It seems like it should be but whether it really is is something for a NA to consider.

In the video, Leo mentions that he increased the scantlings of the frames in order to take the added forces. He also mentioned speaking with different engineers and NA's about removing the loose lead pig inside ballast and adding lead to the ballast keel instead. Because the external lead is lower down and  more effective, he can reduce the overall weight of ballast and still improve his righting moment.  This should improve performance by making the boat stiffer and lighter at the same time.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, PaulK said:

In the video, Leo mentions that he increased the scantlings of the frames in order to take the added forces. He also mentioned speaking with different engineers and NA's about removing the loose lead pig inside ballast and adding lead to the ballast keel instead. Because the external lead is lower down and  more effective, he can reduce the overall weight of ballast and still improve his righting moment.  This should improve performance by making the boat stiffer and lighter at the same time.

If he built a bit more structural reinforcement, he could add a deep fin with a fashionable torpedo bulb

 

 

Tally-Ho-300x205 with torpedo keel.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great to see the boat moved safely.  But the new shed seems sterile and joyless compared with the magic of the old location with dog and parrot

I expected that the stars of that episode would be the amazing boat movers.  They were of course great, but for me the real standout stars were Raoul & Darlene telling their story, and hearing how the Tally Ho project had helped them find a way forward after too many setbacks.  That had me in tears.

  • Like 11
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Foiling Optimist said:

I'm sure the new site will be less sterile once they move in properly. I hope they can have their wood shop right next to the boat. It will be super productive to be in a warm dry site with everything nearby. 

Oh, I'm sure it will be very productive.  But the old setup with the animals and the kitchen in the workshop had a charm which can't be replicated in the new concrete desert.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

the real standout stars were Raoul & Darlene telling their story, and hearing how the Tally Ho project had helped them find a way forward after too many setbacks.

hear hear

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I expected that the stars of that episode would be the amazing boat movers.  They were of course great, but for me the real standout stars were Raoul & Darlene telling their story, and hearing how the Tally Ho project had helped them find a way forward after too many setbacks.  That had me in tears.

Totally agree of course, up there with the Legless Pete episode which will continue to inspire me for many years yet.

But can we add in an honourable mention for that awesome hydraulic boat trailer!?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Secret Experiment said:

Totally agree of course, up there with the Legless Pete episode which will continue to inspire me for many years yet.

But can we add in an honourable mention for that wonderful hydraulic boat trailer!?

Of course!   That trailer is the most amazing piece of kit, and  was I starstruck by that brilliant driver who moved the whole kaboodle in three dimensions with millimetre precision.  Like keyhole surgery done to perfection, but with a tree trunk as the surgical implement.

Just brilliant.  And then the star was totally upstaged by that wonderful couple.

I rate it as even better than the wonderful Legless Pete episode.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/18/2021 at 8:59 AM, TwoLegged said:

Of course!   That trailer is the most amazing piece of kit, and  was I starstruck by that brilliant driver who moved the whole kaboodle in three dimensions with millimetre precision.  Like keyhole surgery done to perfection, but with a tree trunk as the surgical implement.

Just brilliant.  And then the star was totally upstaged by that wonderful couple.

I rate it as even better than the wonderful Legless Pete episode.

Man, when he went on about hopping trains in that episode, all I could think was "that's how you lose your legs man", not realising he literally lost his legs like that. I don't know if it was mentioned before or what but man, the facepalm when I heard that.

Face Palm Hif GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/17/2021 at 5:59 PM, TwoLegged said:

Of course!   That trailer is the most amazing piece of kit, and  was I starstruck by that brilliant driver who moved the whole kaboodle in three dimensions with millimetre precision.  Like keyhole surgery done to perfection, but with a tree trunk as the surgical implement.

Just brilliant.  And then the star was totally upstaged by that wonderful couple.

I rate it as even better than the wonderful Legless Pete episode.

What’s in that cab as far as GPS/auto drive sensors?    
 

That’s a top pro on the job and bet that rig is state-of-art with onboard comms etc.

This Tally Ho saga just entered a new world.   Pt Townsend is a welcome break in the action.   Go Leo!

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Raoul and Darlene’s story choked me up.  Tally Ho crew, eager to see the project unfold in PT.

The neighbor's objections used to strike me as petty but now that we've heard from Raoul and Darlene, it's crossed the line to despicable. Clearly, having Tally Ho on site was therapeutic for them both and the fact that the neighbor ignored that is just too much. 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cristoforo said:

Did you know the neighbor has an autistic 9 year old and the high pitch sound of the sawmill running  next door sometimes  made it unbearable for her?  

....and yet that neighbor chose to build their house right up against the fence-line, as close as possible to that saw, even though the saw was in use and obviously making noise long before the construction began....

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

....and yet that neighbor chose to build their house right up against the fence-line, as close as possible to that saw, even though the saw was in use and obviously making noise long before the construction began....

Community decides to permit housing construction next to existing airport. People in new houses complain about airplane noise. Community decides to close airport. People complain about lack of local airport...

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, casc27 said:

Community decides to permit housing construction next to existing airport. People in new houses complain about airplane noise. Community decides to close airport. People complain about lack of local airport...

Yup.  There's a shooting range near me that' was there for nearly 100 years.  Community decided to allow housing to grow up around it.  Developers were required to have buyers sign an acknowledgement that the shooting range makes noise.  Buyers sign, then sue the range over noise.  Range is in the process of being sued out of existence (not shut down by community, but likely being forced into insolvency defending against all the lawsuits).

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cristoforo said:

Mama Mia  Of course I cannot document it. Can you prove it’s not true?   Nazi much? How do people pass judgement without hearing both sides of a story?  And stop with the fairytales about airports and shooting ranges.   All of the codes and regulations and laws were in place before Leo arrived.  He is the one that didn’t bother to read them. Because the price to build there  was cheap. 

Dick move, though. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, sledracr said:

....and yet that neighbor chose to build their house right up against the fence-line, as close as possible to that saw, even though the saw was in use and obviously making noise long before the construction began....

I thought Leo stated in an earlier video that though a neighbor had filed complaint, it wasn't the neighbor with the new house nextdoor.

About 24min in.

https://youtu.be/od8YXWpD-dU

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Good video, and glad to see a visit from Pancho.

Leo's quite right.  Although he'd love to get stuck into working on the boat, setting up the shop correctly first is a hugely important element to eventual success.  Such a smart chap.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, allene222 said:

What I would worry about it all the weight Leo put in by making everything thicker and stronger. I think he is smart to add lead and add it low. Worst case he puts it in the water and it just tips over.

The lead he's adding to the keel actually comes from the substantial amount of ballast that was inside the boat originally. So he's not adding weight, just putting it lower to compensate for the heavier scantlings.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

The lead he's adding to the keel actually comes from the substantial amount of ballast that was inside the boat originally. So he's not adding weight, just putting it lower to compensate for the heavier scantlings.

Lowering it will help but not adding any makes it more risky that he added too much weight up high. I would worry about that more than hitting a tree, which seems pretty unlikely ;-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, allene222 said:

Lowering it will help but not adding any makes it more risky that he added too much weight up high. I would worry about that more than hitting a tree, which seems pretty unlikely ;-)

The overall weight will not increase, he will reduce the internal ballast to compensate. The weight up high is balanced by the ballast added at the lowest point of the keel. Righting moment should remain the same

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, casc27 said:

WTF is "Project Binky"? I fear I am missing out on meaningful entertainment...

Two British mechanics rebuilding, redesigning, recreating a mini cooper with a different engine for racing. They also did a low cost Citroen C3 conversion for a local "down to earth" racing class.

Describing them as perfectionists beyond perfectionism does not give it justice. They can be anal in their search of the perfect design for a bracket, a run of hydraulic hoses, or a paint job (the description of the paint job for the mini is just mind boggling; I did not know that type of shit even existed!!!).

 

But God, they are funny!! And they know their stuff (you have to appreciate self deprecating British humor)

 

Search for Project Binky in Youtube...

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, casc27 said:

WTF is "Project Binky"? I fear I am missing out on meaningful entertainment...

Project Binky is the long running endeavour of a couple of Englishmen to squeeze the running gear of a Toyota Celica GT4 into the shell of an old style mini..

https://www.youtube.com/user/badobsessionmsport/videos

Enjoy!

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Project Binky is the long running endeavour of a couple of Englishmen to squeeze the running gear of a Toyota Celica GT4 into the shell of an old style mini..

https://www.youtube.com/user/badobsessionmsport/videos

Enjoy!

A long time ago, like maybe 50 years ago, I test drove a mini that had an Olds V8 in it. The engine didn't really fit but he got it in. My knee was at my chin when my foot was on the accelerator to give you an idea of how tight it was. I decided not to buy it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, allene222 said:

a mini that had an Olds V8 in it. The engine didn't really fit 

Guy I knew in college found a way to fit a built chevy small-block V8 into a Porsche 914.  Looked completely stock on the outside, rumbled like a monster.

License plate was "NOT A 4"

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/9/2021 at 4:13 PM, alphafb552 said:

Project Binky is the long running endeavour of a couple of Englishmen to squeeze the running gear of a Toyota Celica GT4 into the shell of an old style mini..

https://www.youtube.com/user/badobsessionmsport/videos

Enjoy!

Thanks, I have been missing out. Love the intro/music. Brings me back to my childhood TV watching...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice to see Pancho the parrot being a regular visitor at the new boat yard. Parrots are intelligent animals and notoriously needy of stimulation and entertainment - having the whole project leave Sequim could have been very difficult for the bird...

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, allene222 said:

Having a parrot is like having a 2 year old for 30 years. Well, longer for a bird like Pancho. Ours is smaller. Worst decision we ever made, not that I had any say in the matter...

Guy next to a shop I worked in had a cage building biz.   Always a loud bunch of Macaws inside squawking 24/7.  Asked what’s up with the flock & he said they were rescues from customers who bailed on Parrot Life.
 

On a farm outside town about the only place I see them.   The buzz wears off in a couple years.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just posting this here for interest's sake. The restoration of the 1880 smack Fairy by a boatbuilder called Tom Curtis. Just starting. 

image.thumb.png.dfb491617217bb83a6434d162103cf5f.png

The boat's Instagram

His InstagramYoutube

Fans of Swallows and Amazons might recognize the pub. 

No connection, never met him. Just something I saw on IG. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

Just posting this here for interest's sake. The restoration of the 1880 smack Fairy by a boatbuilder called Tom Curtis. Just starting. 

...

No connection, never met him. Just something I saw on IG. 

Great. Another opportunity to spend 30 hours watching someone work on their boat. I think if I can avoid watching the first episode, I might avoid watching others.

I must say I never thought Leo would finish his project. I know they always take way more time than anticipated and I guess in Leo's case it must be 10x as he thought he would be able to do it himself in 2 years and he will end up with at least 20 man years. But I didn't appreciate the power of Youtube to generate revenue and keep the project going. I am in awe of what he has done and for some reason I keep watching although I will admit to just starting to doing some skipping forward in the last few videos.

Allen

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Rubber meeting the road "this is where I will probably live" comments got me thinking about you tubing into the future, I can see patreon  paying for his dream and living vicariously through it. Good for him but I wonder if its performance art, begging, grifting, a job, entertainment... blurred lines. Hes a pretty good wooden boatbuilder, has a nice parrot and can make good vids.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Caecilian said:

I wonder if its performance art, begging, grifting, a job, entertainment... blurred lines

I think the begging/grifting thing is unfair.  People can contribute if they want, or just watch for free like me.

it's a less exploitative way of funding a boat than being a rent-seeker or a bankster.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/25/2021 at 9:19 AM, allene222 said:

Great. Another opportunity to spend 30 hours watching someone work on their boat. I think if I can avoid watching the first episode, I might avoid watching others.

I must say I never thought Leo would finish his project. I know they always take way more time than anticipated and I guess in Leo's case it must be 10x as he thought he would be able to do it himself in 2 years and he will end up with at least 20 man years. But I didn't appreciate the power of Youtube to generate revenue and keep the project going. I am in awe of what he has done and for some reason I keep watching although I will admit to just starting to doing some skipping forward in the last few videos.

Allen

Leo and company have managed to get through some pretty tedious parts of the project, eg the hull and deck beam fairing, as well as the move, and progress should be pretty good from here, at least in terms of the variety of sections they will be building. Assuming the remarkable funding continues, they'll also be able to continue to acquire the subsystems they need like engines and tanks etc, so it should move briskly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they need another Parrot named "Lefty" 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mid said:

 

and now back to our regularly scheduled programming.. well sort of.. 

when you get done with Project Binky ...