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Why? Leo has referred to this several times over the years. Technology has changed, but this boat is still being made by hand. However, the imperative and motivation back then, was and is no

I think Leo decided he liked the boat with rot, tradition and lineage included. He didn’t like the mangled foundations and decided that if he was going to replace the frames, he wasn’t just gonna copy

Thanks for all your interest and support, all!

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Not an expert by any means, as the last time I was involved in building boats was over 10 years ago now.  Perhaps closer to 15.... Anyway, when I was new to the game I was involved in a project very similar to Tally Ho.  It was a new-build, but used essentially the same materials and techniques (Only real difference is that while we had bronze floors, there were no knees or breast hooks.  Thank god).  In this case I’d say that maybe someone got a bit aggressive with the caulk seam bevel, but even just going outside the pencil line rather than inside will make a difference in the outward appearance.  Also, as the plank is in the tuck, and so is a bit extra thick (the back side was rounded to fit the frames but the face is flat, so the plank is the correct thickness at the edges but proud in the middle), which would exaggerate the caulk bevel.  This will get hollowed out in the fairing process.  Even if the caulk bevel is a bit off, if it’s a tight fit  at the frame side (I expect it is, as you can adjust that before fastening the plank), that’s no reason to junk a big and valuable piece of planking stock.  It’ll be fine.  Heck, all four planks in view have different butt seam widths, so whatever.  Carvel planking as a method is by nature fairly imprecise and forgiving of small mistakes.  Heck, there’s a story where they say they’ll never truly re-create the schooner Bluenose, because no one will ever know how closely the builders got to the plans....could be out inches in many measurements.  

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On 1/10/2021 at 12:17 PM, sledracr said:

Not that I could do any better (!) but.... every time it is on screen, I can't help thinking "I'm really surprised that plank made it past Leo's quality-assurance standards...."

 

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That plank is obviously planned for easy removal in case they need to get to the propeller shaft. Everything on Tally-Ho is on purpose. Just like 'Handley Cross or Mr. Jorrocks's Hunt' (which may have graced the shelves aboard Tally-Ho in earlier times) absolute English order in all things, as they have always been. 

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52 minutes ago, PaulK said:

That plank is obviously planned for easy removal in case they need to get to the propeller shaft. 

You mean the shaft that exits in the cut-out a couple of feet above that plank?  Clever!!!  

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7 minutes ago, sledracr said:

You mean the shaft that exits in the cut-out a couple of feet above that plank?  Clever!!!  

You're right.  The big hole I thought was the shaft must be a drift or bolt with its head sunk. The holes look to be about the same diameter.  Good thing I'm not building this.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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One of the other projects like this I watched, maybe the the Western Flyer?, they left a gap of a couple of planks to make it easier to move materials and tools into and out of the boat while working on the internal structures. I wonder if Leo is going to do that.

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One way to increase efficiency and you start to work on the interior and deck is build a working floor surrounding much of the boat at deck level. Moving your table saw/bandsaw etc up there and most of the tools so you don't have to go up and down stairs all day.

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

One way to increase efficiency and you start to work on the interior and deck is build a working floor surrounding much of the boat at deck level. Moving your table saw/bandsaw etc up there and most of the tools so you don't have to go up and down stairs all day.

That would be ideal, Zonk, but does Leo have the space around TH? Or knowing Leo, he'll just knock out a larger tent structure over a weekend or two...Still enjoying this project.

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wonder what's happened to the doubting Thomas's at the start of the fred who did not think Leo would see this through ?

doubt WW# would stop him now :)

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21 hours ago, Zonker said:

One way to increase efficiency and you start to work on the interior and deck is build a working floor surrounding much of the boat at deck level. Moving your table saw/bandsaw etc up there and most of the tools so you don't have to go up and down stairs all day.

Acorn to Arabella has done something like this.

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It doesn't have to be wide - 4' or so with a railing. Have a platform at one end for the big power tools if you need space. Lots of room at the transom or alongside the bow (because people build rectangular covering sheds but boats are pointy at the bow thus more room for a bigger platform at the bow.

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Why not put the tools on the deck itself, or on a hatch cover? No need to build a platform. Much of the interior was taken out and put in storage at the outset, so how much are heavy tools going to be needed anyway?

 

 

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2 hours ago, PaulK said:

Why not put the tools on the deck itself, or on a hatch cover? No need to build a platform. Much of the interior was taken out and put in storage at the outset, so how much are heavy tools going to be needed anyway?

There will be nothing actually left original of the old Talley Ho. These folks are quite enterprising with many facets in this sophisticated social media marketing boat program. There is even an old wood reuse initiative in the works. Get on that donor list, take a piece of the old Ho and personally feel part of this solid program.

Screen Shot 2021-02-15 at 5.04.00 PM.png

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2 hours ago, Black Jack said:

There will be nothing actually left original of the old Talley Ho. These folks are quite enterprising with many facets in this sophisticated social media marketing boat program. There is even an old wood reuse initiative in the works. Get on that donor list, take a piece of the old Ho and personally feel part of this solid program.

Screen Shot 2021-02-15 at 5.04.00 PM.png

Oops- got her confused with Coronet, in Newport. Coronet's interior has been stowed away.  Tally Ho was an empty hull when Leo got her. 

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

German magazine summarises one of Leo's videos: https://floatmagazin.de/leute/das-plankenkleid-der-tally-ho-leo-sampson

I guess it's a cheap way of filling pages

 Possibly a good way for Leo to add to his viewers and supporters as well. After reading the article, English-speaking Germans who hadn't known about Tally Ho are likely to look her up online. Note how they must have gotten his OK to  use his copyrighted photos throughout the article.    

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So what started up as a backyard personal project has now basically mutated into a commercially operated shipyard...

The pitfalls of a disruptive business model, where the product of the endeavor is not considered the economic goal, but the internet content generated along the way.

I guess this is what it will come down to, what is the ultimate aim of Leo's project? For most of us here, I don't think there is much doubt, we all just want to see Tally Ho sailing again. But from a legal and tax point of view, it's hard to dispute the fact that whatever he's doing, he's generating income from it.

Lots of you guys out there are based in the PNW, anyone out there who can reach out to Leo and give him a hand with the county, to ensure at least that Tally Ho can be completed to a moveable condition before being forced out of Sequim?

Of course, he will then need to find a suitable shipyard as well to finish the project...

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“I've already sent an email to the county commissioners protesting his treatment- here's the form for Clallam county's general contact form- you can find the one specifically for their community development office on the same website.”

http://www.clallam.net/features/emailClallam.asp?em=general

YTubers steppin’ up for Leo

 

 

 

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On a smaller scale my boat projects have been subjected to rules, weird neighbors and economics.   I feel for Leo but, as he says, he knew this going forward from the time they first showed up to hassle the shed details.

He’ll prolly lose in a hearing & then relocate to a better spot.   Life will be better in the end for Leo.  

Tally Ho!

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Wherever you go in the world these days, there is a Department of Don't Do Anything Interesting (DODDAI).

DODDAI never dares tackle the abuses of big business (esp the major polluters), because the big guys are lawyered up and politicianed up.   So the bureaucrats go for the soft targets, i.e. the little people who have no lawyers and no compliance department.  Belch crap out the chimney of your factory: no problem.  But make a minor and inconsequential error in the size of your hardstanding or the config of your guttering, and Borg is coming your way.

Around my way, these enforcers are easily identifiable: they drive shiny, newish cars and wear expensive anoraks whilst harassing people in cheap wellies and tired overalls who use 15-year-old vehicles.  We have phone trees and messaging groups to track the movements of DODDAI.

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I'm curious how many of the other neighbors have "home based industry" issues.  I'm gonna guess, for example, that any of them who raise livestock or grow hay or whatever, have both revenue and labor associated with their efforts.  Probably noise (farm equipment) and "air pollution" (odors) as well.

Wonder if Leo can spark some of them to help him, as it helps them too.

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10 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:
2 hours ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious how many of the other neighbors have "home based industry" issues.  I'm gonna guess, for example, that any of them who raise livestock or grow hay or whatever, have both revenue and labor associated with their efforts.  Probably noise (farm equipment) and "air pollution" (odors) as well.

Wonder if Leo can spark some of them to help him, as it helps them too.

Im pretty sure the majority of his neighbors and local government and tax officials are not going to be sympathetic to a kid running a commercial boat building venture out 
of a residence while breaking codes and laws, even if its an historic yacht. (or will have  2 or 3 pieces of a historic yacht left in it). They have to enforce the codes and dont give a shit about Youtuber petitions. Likely he will negotiate a longer extension to move it to a commercial zone. I love old boats but I wouldnt want to be sipping an ice tea out on my deck while listening to a guy next door running a big planer and chainsaws for months on end. So the neighbor might be a dick but even dicks have rights. Arabella guys had similar issues with their shed meeting code and had to beef it up. Lots of folks would like to fund side businesses/hobbies with full time paid employees via youtube. Is 'No Feet Pete' getting 1099s? Paying income tax like the rest of us?   Is Leo giving him medical and dental? Workman's Comp?  401k?

It mitte be me, butte you conserne dose notte semme 'genuine'.  The 'shitt stirreng' seemes genuine................               :)

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27 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

I wouldnt want to be sipping an ice tea out on my deck while listening to a guy next door running a big planer and chainsaws

Might be valid in a neighborhood (although, even in a neighborhood, people run can do things on their own property, even things that might disturb the quiet during daytime hours)

But this isn't a neighborhood, where you're 10 feet away while sitting on that deck.  This is rural farmland.  The nearest neighbor is 100 yards away, the next nearest close to twice that.

(this is not the actual locale, but... similar enough to illustrate the point)  

If Leo's not doing the right paperwork (taxes on income, 1099s to independent contractors, etc) that's one thing, and fixable.  But in an area surrounded by working farms and such, the nuisance complaints are bullshit.  The property owner has every right to have a boat rebuilt on his property.

farm.thumb.JPG.640f8d84bbc4eec2e758b46804cf0409.JPG

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5 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Latest video. Hard to tell if Leo or the neighbor is  being a whiny bitch or not. The neighbor does have a point he basically has a saw mill running next to him for several years. The county does have a point Leo is collecting income and paying employees.  No taxation happening. Building and other codes out of compliance. Everyone appreciates what he is doing (except the neighbor where there is prior bad blood that predates him apparently). 
Is  Leo being cool or homo? 

Here is the video you are referring to:

 

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1 hour ago, Snaggletooth said:

It mitte be me, butte you conserne dose notte semme 'genuine'.  The 'shitt stirreng' seemes genuine................               :)

You don't know Cristoforo very well, do you?  I've had him on ignore for a long time.  A shit stirrer is a polite way of describing him.

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Just now, Grrr... said:
1 hour ago, Snaggletooth said:

It mitte be me, butte you conserne dose notte semme 'genuine'.  The 'shitt stirreng' seemes genuine................               :)

You don't know Cristoforo very well, do you?  I've had him on ignore for a long time.  A shit stirrer is a polite way of describing him.

Thisse made me laffe..................                   :)

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

Might be valid in a neighborhood (although, even in a neighborhood, people run can do things on their own property, even things that might disturb the quiet during daytime hours)

But this isn't a neighborhood, where you're 10 feet away while sitting on that deck.  This is rural farmland.  The nearest neighbor is 100 yards away, the next nearest close to twice that.

(this is not the actual locale, but... similar enough to illustrate the point)  

If Leo's not doing the right paperwork (taxes on income, 1099s to independent contractors, etc) that's one thing, and fixable.  But in an area surrounded by working farms and such, the nuisance complaints are bullshit.  The property owner has every right to have a boat rebuilt on his property.

farm.thumb.JPG.640f8d84bbc4eec2e758b46804cf0409.JPG

I live in a very similar area.  There have been people who have moved in and immediately started complaining about the farmers, their livestock, and the smell of the fields after the raw manure fertilization.

Luckily, there's laws covering that now.

But I've also watched the city try to repeatedly shut down a boat yard.  First for not having proper 'bathroom facilities', then for not having a 'green belt' in front of the property, then for blight (they didn't like the empty cradles) etc.  The boat yard has been around for over 100 years, and predates any of their new 'beautification' rules.  Luckily, the owner is far more determined than them, and just keeps finding new ways of pissing them off while managing to toe the line.

Sometimes I truly understand the guys who carry guns and threaten to shoot any government official that comes near their property.

Unfortunately, as stupid as their rules might be, if Leo's violating them he's going to lose.

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^^

Good post Grrr.

(except for the guns bit)

Having built my own boat in a less population dense region than Leo, I sympathise with his predicament.

Our neighbour over 500 meters away would continually complain to council , and I would recieve regular visits from the council

inspector. I was deemed to be acting in accordance with council regulation and had nothing to fear. 

The situation does create unpleasant pressure and stress in what is at times already a stressful undertaking.

In Australia  Pete would be considered  a subcontractor and hence be  responsible for his  own tax and insurance etc.

Not sure in USA though.

At the end of the day one moves to less populated areas for the peace and open spaces. Years of industrial noise would drive one bonkers. Its not as if this is someone  mowing their lawn once a fortnight type noise.

I'm a little surprised he has had this long a run at it. Surely no one thought a project of this size and notoriety could go on in the outer burbs forever before someone got pissed.

Hopefully Leo can find a solution. At least the boat wont take long to get to a moveable stage (if it comes to this)even if he uses temporary construction ply to stabilize the deck and a couple of bulkheads.

I look forward to his videos and will continue to donate.

PS.

For those familiar with Noakes shipyard and the North Sydney council shit fight, there is probably a few similarities.

PPS

 Hasn't Pete got a workshop down near the water somewhere? Hard standing for Tally Ho available??

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I think Leo should declare Tally Ho his home, ASAP

He could draw up papers with the property owner leasing that part of the property for $1/year or something.  Similar to if they'd allowed him to live on that part of the property in a mobile home.  

Washington State has a no-eviction order going right now, because of COVID, so it'd be impossible for the county to tell him to move the boat, or stop living in it. 

And certainly he'd have the right to work on his "home".  Who could possibly deny him that?

:P

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5 hours ago, Grrr... said:

You don't know Cristoforo very well, do you?  I've had him on ignore for a long time.  A shit stirrer is a polite way of describing him.

He's just a wannabe-shit-stirrer.  His malodorous droppings are more rabbit poop than male bovine excrement, and rarely cause a ripple.

If only he had invested in a copy of Shit Stirring for Dummies.

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14 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

cool and homo are not mutually exclusive. I have lots of gay friends who are super cool!

“Cool or homo” is one of those old, and yes juvenile, SA traditions. I don’t know the exact origin but the usage is generally in the context of looking for an opinion on whether something is, well “cool” or... not cool.

For example, a poll asking, “Leo’s tattoos - cool or homo?”

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2 hours ago, Black Sox said:

“Cool or homo” is one of those old, and yes juvenile, SA traditions. I don’t know the exact origin but the usage is generally in the context of looking for an opinion on whether something is, well “cool” or... not cool.

It is indeed juvenile, but it's also nasty.  This sort of language makes SA a cold place for the the targets of such childishness.

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As of end of August there will be a large open space in a yard in Tulsa, Oklahoma, that is used to a lot of noise, and a shorter route back to England.

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4 hours ago, TheDragon said:

As of end of August there will be a large open space in a yard in Tulsa, Oklahoma, that is used to a lot of noise, and a shorter route back to England.

Waiting for Doug to weigh in on this affair.   He knows more than most folks on getting along with the neighbors.

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Unfortunately it's a real uphill battle for Leo now. All the big wheel and all of its cogs will want to do is swiftly get rid of him so this annoying neighbour stops harassing them.

I would be concerned about fines and additional taxes to the property owner if they consider this a commercial enterprise. Rather than stressing about this hearing I would focus on moving ASAP. He'll lose this live-in workshop he's got now (potentially) but he'll be in a legally compliant. Last thing he needs is to get deported for being a nuisance.

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I dont see how the nuisance caused by hi work is any different than building a house. As for this 'home based industry' claim, this is farmland, they all have that! Sounds like this neighbor is a bit of a nut, complaining about the noise the parrot makes!

Leo said once he gets the rest of the planks and the ballast keel on he can move it. My guess is that is what will happen. 

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“I've already sent an email to the county commissioners protesting his treatment- here's the form for Clallam county's general contact form- you can find the one specifically for their community development office on the same website.”

I'd say don't do this.....  you are just going to annoy and piss off the gov. employees and make things only worse for Leo.

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2 hours ago, Mark Set said:

I dont see how the nuisance caused by hi work is any different than building a house. As for this 'home based industry' claim, this is farmland, they all have that! Sounds like this neighbor is a bit of a nut, complaining about the noise the parrot makes!

Leo said once he gets the rest of the planks and the ballast keel on he can move it. My guess is that is what will happen. 

and deck.

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3 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

 

I like what he’s doing but don’t think he shouldn’t have special rules just for him.  

Even though I think you’re a bit of a cunt, I concur. 

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3 hours ago, solosailor said:

I'd say don't do this.....  you are just going to annoy and piss off the gov. employees and make things only worse for Leo.

Well, if it will hit Leo hard financially to move his boat & shop - why not question the city about this?    They expect him to roll over w/o process?   
 

If he wanted to keep this dispute in-house I believe he would not have gone viral on his channel.  I think he’s clearly reaching out for mediation and/or legal aid.

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 He needs a lawyer. The paper he was asked to sign (promising to leave) to get a permit for the boat cover is/was bullshit. Either permit a building or not, adding usage clauses to it is (I beleive) illegal.

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8 minutes ago, longy said:

 He needs a lawyer. The paper he was asked to sign (promising to leave) to get a permit for the boat cover is/was bullshit. Either permit a building or not, adding usage clauses to it is (I beleive) illegal.

I've (unfortunately) dealt with a lot of AHJs (Authorities having Jurisdiction) for permitting, developments, and rezoning. There is next to no recourse available in the permitting process and extra clauses like that are very common. The only thing that holds weight on an AHJ like this is a loss in revenue for the business moving elsewhere or enough constituents get pissed off that an elected official gets involved. Seeing as how the AHJ wants him gone and the neighbour is causing a huge headache he's pretty fucked.

Money talks and they aren't getting any from Leo.

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3 minutes ago, Antoine31 said:

Interesting thing about his location is that Sequim  has a much better climate than  the surrounding areas.  Some kind of weather shadow I'm told. Much colder and wetter in Port Townsend. 

Not inside a heated shed. 

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47 minutes ago, longy said:

 He needs a lawyer. The paper he was asked to sign (promising to leave) to get a permit for the boat cover is/was bullshit. Either permit a building or not, adding usage clauses to it is (I beleive) illegal.

Hopefully some of his Patreons/fans can come to his aid.  I don't know anything about this stuff other than my brutal experience getting my primary residence remodeled.  It's very frustrating that it's so difficult to do cool stuff in this country with atoms vs. electrons if you're not really well capitalized.  

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1 hour ago, longy said:

 He needs a lawyer. The paper he was asked to sign (promising to leave) to get a permit for the boat cover is/was bullshit. Either permit a building or not, adding usage clauses to it is (I beleive) illegal.

Land use permits are certainly not illegal. Here's a few below.

His best hope is to get a conditional permit with an end date that allows him time to stiffen up the boat for a move.Which sounds like what they were looking for when they asked him to sign papers

Screenshot_20210301-145504.png

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Interesting application of the "Coase Theorem". Is damage inflicted on neighbor by the Tally-Ho project larger or smaller than the damage inflicted on Leo by re-location?

Coase suggests that (in theory) a bargaining solution could be reached.     

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43 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

According to this article the evil boatbuilder is creating unauthorized wooden boat joy in the 600 block of Clark Road in Sequim. 
Google earth is helpful in showing how close the dwellings are in the neighborhood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

645

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6 minutes ago, familysailor said:

Google earth is helpful in showing how close the dwellings are in the neighborhood.

People keep saying there's a "new house" right up next to Tally Ho.  I haven't seen it (google maps, google earth, bing maps, whatever)

Old imagery?  to my eyes it looks like the nearest neighbor's house is a good 100 yards away.

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You can see it in the videos, pretty much right up to the setback line across the driveway fence. The map/earth photos are to old to show it. Leo did say she's not the one complaining though.

Screenshot_20210302-152700.png

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+1

I think Leo is handling this perfectly. Will be interested to see how it goes. Best case is he gets all his other (supportive) neighbors to attend the hearing. If he can make it one neighbor against all the others he will win. The press will probably show up as well.

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1 minute ago, allene222 said:

+1

I think Leo is handling this perfectly. Will be interested to see how it goes. Best case is he gets all his other (supportive) neighbors to attend the hearing. If he can make it one neighbor against all the others he will win. The press will probably show up as well.

  I wouldn't be so sure .

A few years back we had a house redeveloped nearby the was going to be 1 1/2 metres above maximum building height of 9metres .

9 or 10 affected surrounding properties submitted appropriate paper work voicing their dis approval .

Guess what ,house got approved .

They now have awsome views of every ones back yards , pools , etc .

It was guessed that the owner /  architect / builder had some pretty good contacts in local council ?

A case of who you know not what you know .

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On 3/1/2021 at 3:48 AM, Cristoforo said:

No. But the county might. 

Watch the Vid , Leo may need to move BUT the project will be completed .

and if you are interested I'm open to a wager with proceeds to charity of the winners choice , ball in your court .

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I think the issue has become more than just a neighbor complaining about the noise and perceived nuisance.

Instead, the county has latched on the fact that due to his youtube and patreon income, he is effectively running an industrial site, which then means that he needs to comply with all health and safety regulations, taxation, zoning and licensing, etc

If they decide to throw the book at him for that, he may be in very murky waters, at least financially (with back taxes and penalties etc)

 

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Some of you with legal backgrounds can correct me here but from the Peninsula Daily News article Mary Ellen Winborn states that Leo can raise money and that her concerns are with the noise and dust. ("We don’t need boats being built all over the county in residential neighborhoods. It doesn’t belong in a rural residential neighborhood...It belongs in a boat marina.") So, if the issue is not the "commercial" aspect and Leo abides by whatever noise ordinances etc. are in place for that location has Ms. Wound-too-tight not undermined her own arguments against  the project? Tally Ho belongs in a marina when it is completed and Ms. WTT's concern that boats will start being built all over the county is spurious at best. But way to go on the PR for your county. 

I think I will start a go fund me campaign to finance the purchase of a property adjacent to Ms. WTT and then donate it to the Hell's Angels or some similar friendly group...

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12 hours ago, casc27 said:

I think I will start a go fund me campaign to finance the purchase of a property adjacent to Ms. WTT and then donate it to the Hell's Angels or some similar friendly group...

I thick they our 501(c) charritey.                    :)   

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I would submit the permit request and then go to a variance hearing once denied.  Rural area.  4 years in process. Recent new(?) neighbor.  Complies with noise requirements.  Will they prohibit a hobby woodshop, personal collector car repair, etc?  The process for a permit hearing, scheduling a variance hearing, etc. can run 6-8 months.  If it gets denied, request another 6 months to arrange an appropriate place, safely move it, etc.   

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One thought (although not one without ramifications) might be for Leo to sell Tally Ho to his host, for a dollar, with a contract that says he can buy it back for a dollar on some date (two years out?)

Then the county's position gets more complicated.  Instead of a 3rd-party doing "industrial work" on the host's property, Leo would be an independent contractor doing work on the host's boat on the host's property, and the whole concept of "industry in a neighborhood" goes away.

(of course, that doesn't accomplish anything with regard to the Karen in the neighborhood...)

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I understand- but have not seen on any recent overhead imagery - that someone has built a house a lot closer.  There have been a couple of places in the videos where you can see it.

ObNote, I also understand that the new/close neighbor is not the one raising the complaints.

 

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I wonder what timescale he agreed to. A month, six months, a year? Everything takes longer than you had hoped, especially having lost Rosie. Port Townsend would have definite upsides in terms of access to additional skills and advice (although Leo doesn't seem to need much of that), but the weather is not nearly as pleasant for working outside all the time. Leo has 4000+ patrons. He might need a few more to pay the costs of this change.

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Just a wild ass guess. I would assume he set some expectation with his hosts. Two years? He has probably exceeded his host's expectations and has wanted to get out of there as soon as he can so as not to impose on his gracious hosts for any longer.

If he is in Port Townsend, he could also likely work for salary if he had to get more money.  He may not be able to have volunteers as housing would be an expense for unpaid volunteers that they might not be able to deal with although I guess I really don't know if everyone sleeps in the shed.

I guess it depends on how much money he is getting from YouTube and the patrons. The videos are long and I guess they could have a lot of ads. I don't see ads on YouTube because I have a Premium account so I don't know.

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7 hours ago, allene222 said:

I don't see ads on YouTube because I have a Premium account so I don't know.

cheep charlie here and no ads ,perish the thought .

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