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2 minutes ago, Varan said:

Let's hope there are eliminated quickly and profoundly.

Before I was neutral about AM challenge but recently I’ve heard some disquieting facts about them. This extra information if true, makes these guys the worse possible winners. Anyone but these guys 

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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6 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I guess everyone is different, I’ve  watched the same video and have a different reaction. If the yachts had side wings like imoca that wouldn’t be to bad

I can respect the difference of opinion.

My only real beef with them is that a miniscule lead puts the boats in entirely different stretches of water.

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More crap journalism.

American Magic appear a legitimate threat to Team New Zealand. It’s early days in a long summer of racing, but they were impressive at the recent world series regatta, beating the Kiwis once and only losing the rematch through one botched move they credited to a brief systems failure

Te Rehutai had established a legitimate lead at the 3rd gate Duncan Johnstone had better toddle of to Specsavers.

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As interesting as these new boats are to watch, there is a lot of truth to the fact that it takes a great degree of maintenance just to keep them running and a minor failure will cause you to lose the race.  I know these boat are still very early into the design stage, but I doubt that there is another sport that requires this much attention.  It is almost like you ran 3 F1 races three days in a row and you had to rebuild part of the engine every night and on top of that, the fuel injection would just randomly stop working at times during the a race (like the foil cant).

I think that going back to big majestic yachts would not be so bad.  It is the competition that draws the attention.

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16 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

More crap journalism.

American Magic appear a legitimate threat to Team New Zealand. It’s early days in a long summer of racing, but they were impressive at the recent world series regatta, beating the Kiwis once and only losing the rematch through one botched move they credited to a brief systems failure

Te Rehutai had established a legitimate lead at the 3rd gate Duncan Johnstone had better toddle of to Specsavers.

Go back and watch the virtual replay.  NZ had taken the lead during the 3rd leg, but AM had retaken it and was leading when they had the equipment issue.  You could say that NZ had a better course into the gate and would have retaken the lead anyway, but AM was actually leading when the problem happen.

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6 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Go back and watch the virtual replay.  NZ had taken the lead during the 3rd leg, but AM had retaken it and was leading when they had the equipment issue.  You could say that NZ had a better course into the gate and would have retaken the lead anyway, but AM was actually leading when the problem happen.

Ok will do.

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25 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Go back and watch the virtual replay.  NZ had taken the lead during the 3rd leg, but AM had retaken it and was leading when they had the equipment issue.  You could say that NZ had a better course into the gate and would have retaken the lead anyway, but AM was actually leading when the problem happen.

Nope. They were behind when it happened

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The races look almost identical to SailGP   It’s all about getting the speed and handling under control so you can get your head out of the boat and put it in the right place. It would be cool if they converge on OD type performance for all boats and I’m thinking they will. 
 

BTW flight control is more important than helm. That’s why Ben dominated. Nates crew flew it. 

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

I hope there is no truth to this story in the local NZ web paper

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123847523/americas-cup-foiling-future-under-threat

This would be a disaster for the sport. Watching traditional America’s cup boats race is boring as hell. After watching a yacht do over 40 knots you can’t go back to 10 knots it’s a complete zzzzzzzzzz

 

 

Completely disagree.  I cant wait to watch good old sail handling with men grinding winches not generators. It is an abortion. Nothing wrong with these. The future of the AC will have less challengers if  it amounts to putting a rocket on the moon.

Screenshot (1767).png

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32 minutes ago, dullers said:

Completely disagree.  I cant wait to watch good old sail handling with men grinding winches not generators. It is an abortion. Nothing wrong with these. The future of the AC will have less challengers if  it amounts to putting a rocket on the moon.

Screenshot (1767).png

Crikey you go back to lead mines it will be like watching Astro Turf grow.

I used to be a purist but these new fangled flying machines have changed my thinking sure they are complex and expensive but so was the AC50 AC72 IAAC75 12m J .

The ACWS threw up a glimpse of boat on boat engagements of the past not really seen since 2007 bring it on it's going to be two cracker regattas.

Lord Dalton states that the TNZ budget is the same as Valencia hey it is what it is and the loony loot being reputedly tossed about by the Frackers is only a few months income for JR given the boon times for billionaires right now I think the AC75 future is bright.

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J-Boats seemed pretty exciting at the Superyacht Challenge Antigua.... 

FWIW it was amazing to watch them in Newport at the worlds but the racing was terrible for the most part. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey you go back to lead mines it will be like watching Astro Turf grow.

I used to be a purist but these new fangled flying machines have changed my thinking sure they are complex and expensive but so was the AC50 AC72 IAAC75 12m J .

The ACWS threw up a glimpse of boat on boat engagements of the past not really seen since 2007 bring it on it's going to be two cracker regattas.

Lord Dalton states that the TNZ budget is the same as Valencia hey it is what it is and the loony loot being reputedly tossed about by the Frackers is only a few months income for JR given the boon times for billionaires right now I think the AC75 future is bright.

I am not a purist. I think the sail changes including spinnakers and mistakes etc with close engagements and spoiling wind and the boats being close to each other is just more interesting. Where a mistake can be redeemed by pure sailing skill and not decide the race so early. 2 races out of the Christmas regattas were good to watch.  I also think the foilers are great to watch but the races are not so good. The race courses need to be wider for a start.  I also think your view is as valid as mine and time will tell.  We have 3 challengers. How many next time?  No France, No Sweden and no Japan this time. That is a shame.

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2 minutes ago, dullers said:

  I also think your view is as valid as mine and time will tell.  We have 3 challengers. How many next time?  No France, No Sweden and no Japan this time. That is a shame.

2007 Louis Vuitton Cup was impressive to watch happen... 11 Challengers and 2 full round robins. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Louis_Vuitton_Cup

 

 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

16.22 shows Amway dipping Kiwi stern gear problem happens after initial loss of lead.

 

My mistake, yes the lead changed before the dip.  I was looking at the distance difference wrong on the virtual replays.  You were right.

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30 minutes ago, dullers said:

I am not a purist. I think the sail changes including spinnakers and mistakes etc with close engagements and spoiling wind and the boats being close to each other is just more interesting. Where a mistake can be redeemed by pure sailing skill and not decide the race so early. 2 races out of the Christmas regattas were good to watch.  I also think the foilers are great to watch but the races are not so good. The race courses need to be wider for a start.  I also think your view is as valid as mine and time will tell.  We have 3 challengers. How many next time?  No France, No Sweden and no Japan this time. That is a shame.

If you make mistakes at this level, you deserve to lose. 

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If as Lord Dalton says AC37 will take place in two years it leaves little runway to adopt and develop another class of AC yacht.

The history of the Louis Vuitton Cup shows greater numbers of entrants when there is a continuity of design class rather than the three contenders attending this cycle for a green fields concept also it could have attracted less contenders.

Continuing to change the design class rules would hinder not help the AC.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey you go back to lead mines it will be like watching Astro Turf grow.

I used to be a purist but these new fangled flying machines have changed my thinking sure they are complex and expensive but so was the AC50 AC72 IAAC75 12m J .

 

So if it is all about the machine and spectacle why bother with so many crew? Be much more exciting with a power plant to give unlimited hydraulics. Having grinders is just a pathetic throwback and should be dumped. Having tactics called from an office onshore with all the data would also make a better spectacle. Yet another throwback to the boring days. Shit, having the whole thing computer driven and controlled would lead to even more exciting races. Why do we bother keeping these silly anachronisms from the boring days of sail changes and direct drive winches.

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

If as Lord Dalton says AC37 will take place in two years it leaves little runway to adopt and develop another class of AC yacht.

The history of the Louis Vuitton Cup shows greater numbers of entrants when there is a continuity of design rather than the three contenders attending this cycle for a green fields concept also it could have attracted less contenders.

Continuing to change the design rules would hinder not help the AC.

 

 

Dalts has no interest in lots of competitors, makes his life harder. Unless he can sell a previous version that can never win. But who will spend millions just to make up the numbers on such a complex machine.

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

there is a lot of truth to the fact that it takes a great degree of maintenance just to keep them running

 

3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

 I know these boat are still very early into the design stage, but I doubt that there is another sport that requires this much attention.

This is all a bit funny coming from a citizen of the richest most technically advanced nation on the planet. A nation in which winning technology challenges was their bread and butter. 

I love that these boats are a technical challenge, but they also blend the subtlety and nuances of sailing into the equation, which requires considerable human input into the design, and not just raw computer power. To go back to the old style boats, would be a dumbing down of the event, and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen.

Barring major mishaps, I'm pretty confident the Defender will defend. I think there's more additional speed potential left in TR, than in the other three.

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23 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So if it is all about the machine and spectacle why bother with so many crew? Be much more exciting with a power plant to give unlimited hydraulics. Having grinders is just a pathetic throwback and should be dumped. Having tactics called from an office onshore with all the data would also make a better spectacle. Yet another throwback to the boring days. Shit, having the whole thing computer driven and controlled would lead to even more exciting races. Why do we bother keeping these silly anachronisms from the boring days of sail changes and direct drive winches.

You might actually be on to something. If we open up the stored energy to not need grinders, we can have 5-6 crew. Have a max and min crew weight, you end up with a helmsman, flight controller, tactician, and a few trimmers. If we accept that 50% of crew on pretty much every AC class since 1950 have been grinding muscle and rail meat, we can probably accept we are beyond the point to need those crew members anymore.

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55 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So if it is all about the machine and spectacle why bother with so many crew? Be much more exciting with a power plant to give unlimited hydraulics. Having grinders is just a pathetic throwback and should be dumped. Having tactics called from an office onshore with all the data would also make a better spectacle. Yet another throwback to the boring days. Shit, having the whole thing computer driven and controlled would lead to even more exciting races. Why do we bother keeping these silly anachronisms from the boring days of sail changes and direct drive winches.

The technology changes not the event it's called progress the AC is no different do you think there is any interest in remotely run artificial intelligence slot cars replacing Formula 1 drivers or Imoca jockeys.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Dalts has no interest in lots of competitors, makes his life harder. Unless he can sell a previous version that can never win. But who will spend millions just to make up the numbers on such a complex machine.

Maybe if INEOS had bought the design package available, they might have been more competitive.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Dalts has no interest in lots of competitors, makes his life harder. Unless he can sell a previous version that can never win. But who will spend millions just to make up the numbers on such a complex machine.

I think you are off the mark there.

Looking at any AC with relatively plentiful challengers, you usually find one or two challengers that are the real deal and the rest of them are clearly also rans.

Take 1995 as an example. TNZ and Australia One were both very good challengers and the rest were not so much.

Even then, TNZ was a substantial step ahead.

Although I am pretty disappointed with the challenger turnout this time, if you look at the three that ARE in the race there are two that appear (for the moment at least) to be reasonably evenly matched and seemingly INEOS as an "also ran".

If we added 3 more challengers to the mix, I doubt they would be anything more than also rans.

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

I hope there is no truth to this story in the local NZ web paper

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123847523/americas-cup-foiling-future-under-threat

This would be a disaster for the sport. Watching traditional America’s cup boats race is boring as hell. After watching a yacht do over 40 knots you can’t go back to 10 knots it’s a complete zzzzzzzzzz

Feh!  Of course there is truth in the story.

The Deed dictates.  It's winner's choice.

Long may it be so!

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

My mistake, yes the lead changed before the dip.  I was looking at the distance difference wrong on the virtual replays.  You were right.

Anyone who admits to making a mistake is worthy of respect, it’s a trait not often shown in this forum 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

If as Lord Dalton says AC37 will take place in two years it leaves little runway to adopt and develop another class of AC yacht.

The history of the Louis Vuitton Cup shows greater numbers of entrants when there is a continuity of design class rather than the three contenders attending this cycle for a green fields concept also it could have attracted less contenders.

Continuing to change the design class rules would hinder not help the AC.

 

 

Not if they changed it to a class of boat that more clubs would have confidence that they could compete.  It doesn't have to be a boat that is currently sailing.  There are many sponsors and clubs that have no interest in throwing $100 - 200 million towards a campaign on a strange boat that has never sail before.  Even if they keep the AC-75, there will be more of a general idea of what the boat design should look like, but any new entrants will be so far behind in the skills and design.

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15 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Not if they changed it to a class of boat that more clubs would have confidence that they could compete.  It doesn't have to be a boat that is currently sailing.  There are many sponsors and clubs that have no interest in throwing $100 - 200 million towards a campaign on a strange boat that has never sail before.  Even if they keep the AC-75, there will be more of a general idea of what the boat design should look like, but any new entrants will be so far behind in the skills and design.

As it has ALWAYS been. It would've been the same with the Cats. Look at SailGP, Team UK (Ineos Team UK) Australia (Formerly Oracle Team USA) and Japan (Formerly majority of key positions from Artemis Racing) have dominated that series. The IACC Class Team NZ, Alinghi and Luna Rossa (to an extent) dominated that class for a long time.

Yes, the experienced teams will probably dominate, but thats just how it goes unless someone can buy the current winning team as Berterelli did.

 

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I have actually been watching a lot of the old 2003 and 2007 cup races and the racing is compelling, though the races are too long. There's something to be said for a very mature rule where the differences in boat speed are minute and a boat that doesn't penalize maneuvers and requires sail handling.

I like the new boats too, but wouldn't consider it any kind of tragedy if we went back to a displacement boat. The 1987 and 2007 cup cycles are probably the most successful of all time and neither featured a boat that was bleeding edge at the time. What they had were lots of teams, close racing and a mature rule.

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18 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

I have actually been watching a lot of the old 2003 and 2007 cup races and the racing is compelling, though the races are too long. There's something to be said for a very mature rule where the differences in boat speed are minute and a boat that doesn't penalize maneuvers and requires sail handling.

I like the new boats too, but wouldn't consider it any kind of tragedy if we went back to a displacement boat. The 1987 and 2007 cup cycles are probably the most successful of all time and neither featured a boat that was bleeding edge at the time. What they had were lots of teams, close racing and a mature rule.

Exactly.  Boats do not have to be on the edge of disaster to make it exciting.  It makes it less fair of a competition if a team can not make up for minor mistakes or miscalculations.  

Many pro sports that we all watch have plenty of room for back and forth between the teams.  And not all of them keep you on the edge of your set for the whole match/game.  The cats in the last two cups and the AC75's in this cup, have too severe of a disadvantage if you fall off of the foils.  

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

I see that both AM and UK went out today, are still out right now.  

Anyone see what they are up to?

We are anchored in Huruhi Bay Waiheke and both are back and forth off there. AM doing lots more manoeuvres. 

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50 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

As it has ALWAYS been. It would've been the same with the Cats. Look at SailGP, Team UK (Ineos Team UK) Australia (Formerly Oracle Team USA) and Japan (Formerly majority of key positions from Artemis Racing) have dominated that series. The IACC Class Team NZ, Alinghi and Luna Rossa (to an extent) dominated that class for a long time.

Yes, the experienced teams will probably dominate, but thats just how it goes unless someone can buy the current winning team as Berterelli did.

 

The class of boat is not the issue with a new AC team, it is the overall enormity of putting a team together and all the parts and pieces of managing such an effort. Many teams over the years have had decent boats, speed, etc. but do not have the experience of what it takes to mount a successful challenge. Also many tried radical ideas to gain an edge, going too far out of the box and sailing themselves right out of contention. Again that is an issue of managing every aspect of the challenge.

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2 minutes ago, hhn92 said:

The class of boat is not the issue with a new AC team, it is the overall enormity of putting a team together and all the parts and pieces of managing such an effort. Many teams over the years have had decent boats, speed, etc. but do not have the experience of what it takes to mount a successful challenge. Also many tried radical ideas to gain an edge, going too far out of the box and sailing themselves right out of contention. Again that is an issue of managing every aspect of the challenge.

Agreed. The boats are irrelevant, but have been used as the excuse from teams, and/ or their fans as a reason to have issue with the current cycle. But the class of boat is irrelevant. Costs are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what class is used, teams will always find a reason, or a way to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a campaign. It comes down to who manages their resources most efficiently. Financial resource, human resource, hardware and software resource.

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5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Agreed. The boats are irrelevant, but have been used as the excuse from teams, and/ or their fans as a reason to have issue with the current cycle. But the class of boat is irrelevant. Costs are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what class is used, teams will always find a reason, or a way to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a campaign. It comes down to who manages their resources most efficiently. Financial resource, human resource, hardware and software resource.

And can actually work as a team ! 

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1 hour ago, hhn92 said:

The class of boat is not the issue with a new AC team, it is the overall enormity of putting a team together and all the parts and pieces of managing such an effort. Many teams over the years have had decent boats, speed, etc. but do not have the experience of what it takes to mount a successful challenge. Also many tried radical ideas to gain an edge, going too far out of the box and sailing themselves right out of contention. Again that is an issue of managing every aspect of the challenge.

You've explained perfectly how a new team Alinghi were able to win in 2003 first-time up. And you've also articulated why an older team Oracle-BWM would never have won an AC (and would still be trying now) had Bertarelli not handed them the loophole through which Ellison rammed the DoG Challenge.

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10 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

I did say worked as a team.  Not just what Ben wants 

The Frackers in their present state of pre- kick off disarray are the real surprise of this event not constrained by loot nor talent is Basher Ben really the weakest link.

My sources say yes.

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17 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

The Frackers in their present state of pre- kick off disarray are the real surprise of this event not constrained by loot nor talent is Basher Ben really the weakest link.

My sources say yes.

I’d say so too.  He’s a solo sportsmen in his chosen boats and it shows 

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13 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

I think Ben likes to hire the best talent if possible but it’s still his call in the end 

To be CEO and skipper is all me me me 

But where is CEO Grant Simmer in all of this?

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I’m in construction all projects are in summary a reflection of all the personalities involved then there are the megalomaniacs crikey  I’ve met a few.

There is no getting away from Basher Bens successes and achievements which I consider highly as there no greater calling card than multiple Olympic gold however what’s on show from the Frackers efforts at the looming business end of one of the most dynamic sailing regattas of all time in my view is pretty piss poor.

 

 

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Blah, blah, foiling, youth, future....if you build it they will come!

Who are these youths with enough money for a foiling boat? Nothing screams to me that sailing is not for me as much as being shown a cool a.c. boat and then told that the cheap version for kids is £15k.....jump on board...oh and...crash it and your repair bill is £2k. Growing up we had feck all, only ever third hand sails etc. etc. .......guess sailing will be saved by the children of the wealthy, private educations all around......rant over. Not saying I do not live the current boats, I just don't get this parallel between encouraging sailings future and youth/foiling.

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29 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

If Ben needs anything he needed a Toto wolf clone from Mercedes not the Engineers . Lewis drives the car but it’s still Toto’s call 

If Lewis can win, i.e. If car is in anyway capable, he wins. The number of mistakes he makes are very small. Has also driven brilliantly cars that couldn't win that weekend, but he picked up a third, fourth, and then three races later the car had regained its edge. Basically the best driver of the last 40 years. Before that it was a different sport. Just my opinion .

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8 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Blah, blah, foiling, youth, future....if you build it they will come!

Who are these youths with enough money for a foiling boat? Nothing screams to me that sailing is not for me as much as being shown a cool a.c. boat and then told that the cheap version for kids is £15k.....jump on board...oh and...crash it and your repair bill is £2k. Growing up we had feck all, only ever third hand sails etc. etc. .......guess sailing will be saved by the children of the wealthy, private educations all around......rant over. Not saying I do not live the current boats, I just don't get this parallel between encouraging sailings future and youth/foiling.

I don’t think any appreciable aim of the America’s cup is to improve sailings popularity. It’s a technology race were technology does trickle down to the plebs. A bit like formula one technology finds its ways into cars 

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1 hour ago, Zeusproject said:

I think Ben likes to hire the best talent if possible but it’s still his call in the end 

To be CEO and skipper is all me me me 

Actually it’s a task that’s impossible to give 100 % to both roles  and I’ll advised to even try. Takes a certain kind of arrogance by Ben to be trying.

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11 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

If Lewis can win, i.e. If car is in anyway capable, he wins. The number of mistakes he makes are very small. Has also driven brilliantly cars that couldn't win that weekend, but he picked up a third, fourth, and then three races later the car had regained its edge. Basically the best driver of the last 40 years. Before that it was a different sport. Just my opinion .

Best driver in the right car.   Not knocking Lewis but the team is an example of how a team delivers the right car or very close to it  all the time and his superior skill makes it unbeatable.  Lewis dosnt need to know how or why he just drives the wheels of it . Ben needs to do the same 

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5 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The technology changes not the event it's called progress the AC is no different do you think there is any interest in remotely run artificial intelligence slot cars replacing Formula 1 drivers or Imoca jockeys.

The F1 driver has an entire team, not in the car, supporting him/her during the entire race. Making decisions for the driver, telling them what to do. So why not have a driver and onshore team deciding tactics? No need for grinders, tactician, sail control can be automated. Just a driver and a machine. Make it even more exciting...

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Just now, Zeusproject said:

Best driver in the right car.   Not knocking Lewis but the team is an example of how a team delivers the right car or very close to it  all the time and his superior skill makes it unbeatable.  Lewis dosnt need to know how or why he just drives the wheels of it . Ben needs to do the same 

Burling pretty much just drove and Ashby and the boys did the rest . Dalts just drummed up the support and kept everyone on there toes  

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9 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The F1 driver has an entire team, not in the car, supporting him/her during the entire race. Making decisions for the driver, telling them what to do. So why not have a driver and onshore team deciding tactics? No need for grinders, tactician, sail control can be automated. Just a driver and a machine. Make it even more exciting...

Think you are in the wrong forum G the automaton blow up dollies are further down the hall second door on the left.

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

I think you are off the mark there.

Looking at any AC with relatively plentiful challengers, you usually find one or two challengers that are the real deal and the rest of them are clearly also rans.

Take 1995 as an example. TNZ and Australia One were both very good challengers and the rest were not so much.

Even then, TNZ was a substantial step ahead.

Although I am pretty disappointed with the challenger turnout this time, if you look at the three that ARE in the race there are two that appear (for the moment at least) to be reasonably evenly matched and seemingly INEOS as an "also ran".

If we added 3 more challengers to the mix, I doubt they would be anything more than also rans.

I have no interest in the lots of challengers, but it has been a promise for several iterations. Dalts was just the last to claim that lots of challengers is a good thing, yet picked a design to do the opposite.

One serious challenger is all that is needed. A couple is maybe better. Racing before the event is just trying to cash in and takes away the mystic of who has bought the knife to the gun fight.

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Racing before the event is just trying to cash in and takes away the mystic of who has bought the knife to the gun fight.

True dat and the event is a lot poorer with the resulting loss of hype intrigue and anticipation.

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1 hour ago, Chris UK said:

If Lewis can win, i.e. If car is in anyway capable, he wins. The number of mistakes he makes are very small. Has also driven brilliantly cars that couldn't win that weekend, but he picked up a third, fourth, and then three races later the car had regained its edge. Basically the best driver of the last 40 years. Before that it was a different sport. Just my opinion .

And before Lewis it was Michael Schumacher. And before him it was Alain Prost. And before him it it was... and before them it was Juan Manuel Fangio.
All outstanding sportsmen with that certain bit "more":
- deep technical understanding
- the ability to assemble the whole team around them (good leadership)
- ruthless will to win
They all changed F1 profoundly, Lewis is no special case.
(Honorable mentions: Ayrton Senna, Sterling Moss (too gentlemanly), Bruce McLaren, Bernd Rosemeyer and even more successful Rudolf Caracciola (both too Nazi), John Surtees (2 and 4 wheels), and so many more that made a lasting impression on the sport and changed it for good.)

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4 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The Frackers in their present state of pre- kick off disarray are the real surprise of this event not constrained by loot nor talent is Basher Ben really the weakest link.

My sources say yes.

My cat does not speak to your cat. So you dont have a source.

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2 hours ago, mako23 said:

I don’t think any appreciable aim of the America’s cup is to improve sailings popularity. It’s a technology race were technology does trickle down to the plebs. A bit like formula one technology finds its ways into cars 

Fair point. What would you say has trickled down to the ordinary Beneteau on the water?

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9 hours ago, Varan said:

If you make mistakes at this level, you deserve to lose. 

What a dull sport it would be.  Sport is about preassure and mistakes.

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12 minutes ago, dullers said:

Fair point. What would you say has trickled down to the ordinary Beneteau on the water?

I don’t know enough about Beneteau yachts to answer that question. However in 1995  cup 3DL sails became the leading edge that drifted down to less expensive classes of racing yachts. 3DL sails are not an invention of the AC, but the 95 Cup did display there worth to anyone watching. 

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

I don’t know enough about Beneteau yachts to answer that question. However in 1995  cup 3dl sails became the leading edge that drifted down to less expensive classes of racing yachts. 

It does not really appear to be trickling down though does it?

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

It does not really appear to be trickling down though does it?

Dullers using a French company that make cruising yachts is not a valid comparison. The trickle down is to things like International moths and similar boats. I’m aware that Moths were foiling before AC foiling but material technology has been transferred. 

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2 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Dullers using a French company that make cruising yachts is not a valid comparison. The trickle down is to things like International moths and similar boats. I’m aware that Moths were foiling before AC foiling but material technology has been transferred. 

 Ok I used Beneteau to represent the generic boat. I cant think of anything that has trickled down...maybe it will be more to do with materials used?  The link was made between F1 cars and normal cars. So I drew the link between AC and ordinary boats. I followed your example.  I think the trickle down is near to non existent.  

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8 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Agreed. The boats are irrelevant, but have been used as the excuse from teams, and/ or their fans as a reason to have issue with the current cycle. But the class of boat is irrelevant. Costs are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what class is used, teams will always find a reason, or a way to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a campaign. It comes down to who manages their resources most efficiently. Financial resource, human resource, hardware and software resource.

Exactly this. Look at F1. Ferrari manage to spend $400M plus every year on two cars. And they get beaten by better run teams spending one third of that or less. Some fuckwit will always find ways of wasting millions.

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5 hours ago, dullers said:

 Ok I used Beneteau to represent the generic boat. I cant think of anything that has trickled down...maybe it will be more to do with materials used?  The link was made between F1 cars and normal cars. So I drew the link between AC and ordinary boats. I followed your example.  I think the trickle down is near to non existent.  

The trickle down from the AC to normal sailing is historically massive. It’s so pervasive, You don’t even see it! We could start with:

Winches, ropes, halyard locks, rope clutches & jammers, rudder bearings, keel bulb & fin engineering, composite rigging, hydraulics, electronics, VPP programs etc etc. 

Every designer who has ever worked for an Americas Cup team will always retain that knowledge. So even the latest Benetau may have some detail that designer learnt in the 2007 cup. Just about all Harkens product line & winches are direct descendants of equipment designed for the cup.

As to the foiling, that’s for future generation to find out if it trickles down, but the boats are absolute beasts. Can’t wait till we see them line up in 18-22 

EDIT: 3Di is also a a direct “trickle down” from the cup. Developed, but not used by Alinghi in 2007

 

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29 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

The trickle down from the AC to normal sailing is historically massive. It’s so pervasive, You don’t even see it! We could start with:

Winches, ropes, halyard locks, rope clutches & jammers, rudder bearings, keel bulb & fin engineering, composite rigging, hydraulics, electronics, VPP programs etc etc. 

Every designer who has ever worked for an Americas Cup team will always retain that knowledge. So even the latest Benetau may have some detail that designer learnt in the 2007 cup. Just about all Harkens product line & winches are direct descendants of equipment designed for the cup.

As to the foiling, that’s for future generation to find out if it trickles down, but the boats are absolute beasts. Can’t wait till we see them line up in 18-22 

Well lets have the links then? We are talking about the AC not all boat racing. You just gave a list of things that are on boats.

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3 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

I just gave you the list you dull moron

 

You named stuff that mostly came from a chandlery without any links to the AC. You made your statement, now back it up.  Shall i get a list of car parts for you? Going to provide links to all that stuff? Very clever insult by the way. I will put that in my little book to use in future.

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10 minutes ago, dullers said:

You named stuff that mostly came from a chandlery without any links to the AC. You made your statement, now back it up.  Shall i get a list of car parts for you? Going to provide links to all that stuff? Very clever insult by the way. I will put that in my little book to use in future.

Here’s one from 2004....... this would probably cover the most modern thing you’ve ever sailed.......

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/headings-olaf-harken-sounds-off

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14 minutes ago, dullers said:

You named stuff that mostly came from a chandlery without any links to the AC. You made your statement, now back it up.  Shall i get a list of car parts for you? Going to provide links to all that stuff? Very clever insult by the way. I will put that in my little book to use in future.

‘Nother one....

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2016/11/3di-race-featured-in-seahorse-technical-review

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3 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

Here’s one from 2004....... this would probably cover the most modern thing you’ve ever sailed.......

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/headings-olaf-harken-sounds-off

See it was not hard. My last boat was a 1948 racing design.

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5 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

Here’s one from 2004....... this would probably cover the most modern thing you’ve ever sailed.......

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/headings-olaf-harken-sounds-off

Oh, yes.  Being able to use 8 men to grind a genoa through a tack faster is now being done on all of the  olympic dinghies .

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2 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Oh, yes.  Being able to use 8 men to grind a genoa through a tack faster is now being done on all of the  olympic dinghies .

And Beneteaus...

 

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Just now, The_Alchemist said:

Oh, yes.  Being able to use 8 men to grind a genoa through a tack faster is now being done on all of the  olympic dinghies .

The point was more about the materials, design & testing. Whilst the exact product may not trickle to you treacle, the design methodology & materials certainly do....

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3 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

The point was more about the materials, design & testing. Whilst the exact product may not trickle to you treacle, the design methodology & materials certainly do....

If you read the original thread we recognised that there would be material connections to modern yachts.  The generic yacht will receive very little from the AC. Racing yachts certainly will.  Cost is one of the major factors reducing the trickle down because it is exotic stuff.  

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12 minutes ago, dullers said:

If you read the original thread we recognised that there would be material connections to modern yachts.  The generic yacht will receive very little from the AC. Racing yachts certainly will.  Cost is one of the major factors reducing the trickle down because it is exotic stuff.  

C-techs inflatable spinnaker sniffer is a direct result of the C-tech inflatable headsail battens developed for the 07 cup, & yes we find those on “generic” yachts, but most things will only be found on new boats, unless you spend the money to retrofit an old shitter.

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1 minute ago, Onthelock! said:

C-techs inflatable spinnaker sniffer is a direct result of the C-tech inflatable headsail battens developed for the 07 cup, & yes we find those on “generic” yachts, but most things will only be found on new boats, unless you spend the money to retrofit an old shitter.

So well known we will all update our shitters. You seem angry about something. Anarchy is a good place to get it off your chest.

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