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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

In the Live, sail die video of the last practice day, they say the consensus is that AM looks to be the fastest of the challengers.  They think she is the closest to NZ, maybe just a slight click slower.  They though AM was a click faster than LR who was a click faster than UK.

I kinda agree.

But people from Luna rossa (Bruni as well, who is not cocky at all) continue to say that AM has big issues in the light, and goes well only in the breeze.  Not sure if we are missing some performance comparison in the <10knots range and we are just too much focusing in the 10-18 range.

We'll see soon I guess.

 

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

Posted Images

The battens are the measurement points and the fact that the sail "cloth" doesn't go all the way to the end of the batten creates a hollow. The measuring process allows for the measurer to measure the outside dimensions of the sail and to "bridge" any hollows by measuring from one outside point to the next and ignore that there isn't any actual sail there, just battens.

This is done because sails are 3D but are measured on a flat surface, so sometimes you get these hollows. AM have created them intentionally to get a sail that is smaller than the minimum prescribed in the rules.

TL;DR - when measured, the whole outline of the sail including the battens counts towards the area even though the cloth doesn't actually cover that whole area.

The measured area of the sail is larger than the effective area.

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Your scepticism is understandable, but if it is photoshop its quite good. There is distinct disturbance in the water where you would expect, and one of the crew is looking at the foil which would make sense.

It’s also a view that you don’t get in the TV coverage, so at the very least the base image would need to have been sourced through the team.

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

+138511403_10164714464215343_7043147945682249446_n.jpg.e24edf4d8b591d2b678b5bae57fd04c8.jpg

This is doing the rounds on FB. I'm pretty skeptical that it's real. 

My estimate is that it is fake.  There is a white halo around parts fo the shark and the sailor looking over the side.

 436967857_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_22_46PM.png.ae02904395690fc862fe31bf62906fd5.png597612105_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_23_22PM.png.fc1258ec7b796c4195a90e3b043bc9e7.png

I also tried using one of the fake picture testing sites, but it is difficult to use on pictures that are saved on facebook because of the quality reduction.  This test the differences in picture resolution.

165316601_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_05_58PM.thumb.png.f012d75b8d91eba343ed5d3a4b53fca7.png

Plus, the foil bulb doesn't look like the AM foil (as I14Racer points out).

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26 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

My estimate is that it is fake.  There is a white halo around parts fo the shark and the sailor looking over the side.

 436967857_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_22_46PM.png.ae02904395690fc862fe31bf62906fd5.png597612105_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_23_22PM.png.fc1258ec7b796c4195a90e3b043bc9e7.png

I also tried using one of the fake picture testing sites, but it is difficult to use on pictures that are saved on facebook because of the quality reduction.  This test the differences in picture resolution.

165316601_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_05_58PM.thumb.png.f012d75b8d91eba343ed5d3a4b53fca7.png

Plus, the foil bulb doesn't look like the AM foil (as I14Racer points out).

Amway is the only boat running with with all black foil arms it would make for a complicated photoshop to add another foil and a shark.

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22 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

THutch said in a US Sailing interview recorded on Jan 3 that AM had not yet revealed their 3rd set of foils. Have we seen that set yet? 

Not that I'm aware of.

Have we seen ETNZs?

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2 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

The battens are the measurement points and the fact that the sail "cloth" doesn't go all the way to the end of the batten creates a hollow. The measuring process allows for the measurer to measure the outside dimensions of the sail and to "bridge" any hollows by measuring from one outside point to the next and ignore that there isn't any actual sail there, just battens.

This is done because sails are 3D but are measured on a flat surface, so sometimes you get these hollows. AM have created them intentionally to get a sail that is smaller than the minimum prescribed in the rules.

TL;DR - when measured, the whole outline of the sail including the battens counts towards the area even though the cloth doesn't actually cover that whole area.

The measured area of the sail is larger than the effective area.

Thanks for that!

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

My estimate is that it is fake.  There is a white halo around parts fo the shark and the sailor looking over the side.

 436967857_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_22_46PM.png.ae02904395690fc862fe31bf62906fd5.png597612105_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_23_22PM.png.fc1258ec7b796c4195a90e3b043bc9e7.png

I also tried using one of the fake picture testing sites, but it is difficult to use on pictures that are saved on facebook because of the quality reduction.  This test the differences in picture resolution.

165316601_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_05_58PM.thumb.png.f012d75b8d91eba343ed5d3a4b53fca7.png

Plus, the foil bulb doesn't look like the AM foil (as I14Racer points out).

Unless it is foil set 3...

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Could be real. You don't get huge sharks in the harbour and inner gulf, and that guy looks about the right size. They get a bit bigger further out, Bronzies and Mako's hanging around Horn Rock.

there are plenty of "huge" sharks in the inner gulf. I have personal hooked and tagged bronze whaler sharks estimated 150kg+ at music point howick, parks point waiheke and clevedon flats Kawakawa so all surrounding areas of the inner courses (I haven't done it but i understand there is a good population of them off the Chelsea sugar factory hole)

from that picture, it looks to be about 3/4 the length of the foil so say est 1.5m ... that's a small one

if I remember correctly LR hit a seal in San Fran which knocked them off the foil and did some damage

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

+138511403_10164714464215343_7043147945682249446_n.jpg.e24edf4d8b591d2b678b5bae57fd04c8.jpg

This is doing the rounds on FB. I'm pretty skeptical that it's real. 

That exceeds the 20% modification limits. 

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1 hour ago, Lickindip said:

there are plenty of "huge" sharks in the inner gulf. I have personal hooked and tagged bronze whaler sharks estimated 150kg+ at music point howick, parks point waiheke and clevedon flats Kawakawa so all surrounding areas of the inner courses (I haven't done it but i understand there is a good population of them off the Chelsea sugar factory hole)

Interesting. Can't say I've ever fished off Howick, or anywhere around there. 

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On 1/9/2021 at 2:36 PM, Forourselves said:

The F50's are a shit show in any breeze.

Just a "good show" in medium... typical bitter multihull supporter.

We know the F50's, nosedive, capsize, disintegrate, break apart and injure sailors in big breeze and have to limp back to base till the next day.

The AC75 are superior in every way.

He got spat out in another thread for his lame comparison too.   No fuckn idea 

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

That exceeds the 20% modification limits. 

that shark's position defies physics.    

If the head is in the water creating that water disturbance, the fish would flop over and off the foil.    The air resistance above would be nowhere near what was needed to balance the force of the water.

My bet:  Fake

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43 minutes ago, fish7yu said:

 

Good listen.  Couple of key points:

- They have not yet used their third set of foils.  It will be a natural progression from the first two sets of foils.

- NZ has slightly smaller foils than AM, LR are large and UK 's are the largest.  Rumors are that LR is going to smaller foils.

- Have to decide to use small foils for speed or large foils for better take off.  The larger foils give up speed at anything over 10 knots of wind speed.  Small foils mean you need to learn how to stay up on the foils because of the penalty of not being able to get back up as fast.  But he did say that it was interesting that the boat with the smaller foils (NZ) was all to get up better than the boat with larger foils in the races.

- He finds is interesting that NZ has a straight foil (like they started out with on the Mule) because they pay a drag penalty by having the arm about 300 mm longer.

- He says Dean has always stressed that we will never make a slow foil fast, so they have constantly pushed to use smaller foils.

- Gary said that worrying about if you made the foils too small so you couldn't get back up out of the water would keep him awake at night, TH said: yup, that a fact!

- TH says their upwind apparent wind angle is around 18 degrees

- they have been well into the 50's on numerous occasions.  TH said told Gary that they would pass him on US route 50.  By Annapolis the speed limit is 65 mph (56.5 Knots!)

- first area of development has been in aero world and setup, second was in improving the flying shapes of the sails and boat balance the third is tactical racing side...

- Each boat sails differently

- The learning curve is so steep that they are taking huge bites out of the apple each time out.

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10 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

- He finds is interesting that NZ has a straight foil (like they started out with on the Mule) because they pay a drag penalty by having the arm about 300 mm longer.

Interesting, thanks for the summary.

300 mm longer arm means more RM and more drag but flat foils allow the same lift with a smaller span therefore less drag, the tradeoff being probably being less stable.

Anarchist specialists here will do the maths.

 

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35 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

But he did say that it was interesting that the boat with the smaller foils (NZ) was all to get up better than the boat with larger foils in the races.

There was nothing that mysterious about that - they just got the breeze first. That race could've gone either way, as is the case in such fickle conditions.

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From their latest FB post. It does look like what they did was modify the upper and leading portion of the bulbs/blends to the wings. Bottom looks same as before. This may fit the 20% rule and allow them to try tweaks before committing to a final 3rd foil design. Since they haven’t made them yet.

 

 

C60CAB6E-731D-41DC-B234-D57D92409020.jpeg

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2 hours ago, I14RACER said:

Here’s a snapshot from that latest video. The foil bulb-to-wing blend looks more Kiwi like now...

 

6DC34E64-F946-4811-B7CB-EF9C67FAFFD6.jpeg

It does look like a convergence..I'll bet a beer nz foil v3 will be a divergence...

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6 minutes ago, barfy said:

It does look like a convergence..I'll bet a beer nz foil v3 will be a divergence...

You're on!   Always been a fan of NZ's  "BFB"  blended-foil-bulb.   I think they will stay with it.

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the smaller foils are faster and so I think ETNZ who have the smallest now may go one smaller come the final. To go smaller you must master the time to foil and tack and gybe speeds. the 6.5 Knot wind range will be the stuff of nightmares

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30 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

the smaller foils are faster and so I think ETNZ who have the smallest now may go one smaller come the final. To go smaller you must master the time to foil and tack and gybe speeds. the 6.5 Knot wind range will be the stuff of nightmares

Smaller foils are not necessarily faster. Only if the extra drag from higher AOA or more flap use doesn't outweigh the drag reduction from less surface area.

And also remember that foils can be bigger or smaller in 3 dimensions. We have largely assumed that they are all full width, and then judged cord length based on that- which may be valid or not. And we have rarely had any reliable info on their thickness

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3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Smaller foils are not necessarily faster. Only if the extra drag from higher AOA or more flap use doesn't outweigh the drag reduction from less surface area.

And also remember that foils can be bigger or smaller in 3 dimensions. We have largely assumed that they are all full width, and then judged cord length based on that- which may be valid or not. And we have rarely had any reliable info on their thickness

TH specifically mentioned surface area when he discussed which foils were smaller.  

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12 hours ago, I14RACER said:

Here’s a snapshot from that latest video. The foil bulb-to-wing blend looks more Kiwi like now...

 

6DC34E64-F946-4811-B7CB-EF9C67FAFFD6.jpeg

I suspect the new foils will look more like the NZ foils with a blended bulb.  TH seemed to make a big point about how they will be a logical progression from the first two sets.  He must have wanted people to know that it comes from their plan and not that they are copying NZ.

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The foils seem to be moving into two camps, which are the big surface area of LR and Ineos and the blended wing smaller surface area of AM and ETNZ.  Considering that AM  and ETNZ look like the faster boats, it would seem sensible for LR and Ineos to move into this area. There’s nothing stoping these syndicates trimming their wings and staying within the 20% rule. 

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45 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Would be an interesting pre-start maneuver to pull off at the right time

Could be useful at the leeward gate, maybe for getting a split or something.  Luna Rosa's roundings straight into foiling takes were certainly working for them during the ACWS.

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On 1/13/2021 at 5:39 PM, I14RACER said:

Here’s a snapshot from that latest video. The foil bulb-to-wing blend looks more Kiwi like now...

 

6DC34E64-F946-4811-B7CB-EF9C67FAFFD6.jpeg

So that shark sushi pic was more than likely real then...

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14 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Would be an interesting pre-start maneuver to pull off at the right time

This should also be the required penalty maneuver. The subjectively bullshit slow down until the umpires determine that you've fallen back enough to clear it should go away. 

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1 minute ago, I14RACER said:

They said they are still finalizing them in their interview. I’m guessing we won’t see them for a bit unless needed in this series.

Seems a bit arrogant to keep their final set in the bag until after the selection series...

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6 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Seems a bit arrogant to keep their final set in the bag until after the selection series...

Not at all. They can still change foils before anything really matters in the Prada Cup. Why not keep the good kit hidden as long as possible?

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16 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Not at all. They can still change foils before anything really matters in the Prada Cup. Why not keep the good kit hidden as long as possible?

Seems like going in with completely new gear in a win-or-swim situation is a ...worrying proposition. It's not like ETNZ is going to have the time to reverse-engineer their foils in the 50 days until the AC, especially considering they've used their 3 set allotment.

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40 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Seems like going in with completely new gear in a win-or-swim situation is a ...worrying proposition. It's not like ETNZ is going to have the time to reverse-engineer their foils in the 50 days until the AC, especially considering they've used their 3 set allotment.

All the teams will advance to the Semi’s so it’s not win or swim till then. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Ben gave Dean a lesson pre-start.

But what a difference in boat modes/speed/VMG!

I'm stuck with PJM on radio. They said 4kt VMG advantage to INEOS?? At least in one of the earlier legs.

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Seems like the right was windier, and INEOS assiduously avoided the left. I don't think there is any way we can know what it would have been like had they had the same breeze. But yeah. A shellacking.

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Hard to tell anything from the data overlays as they're moving so fast and they never stick on it for more than a few seconds at a time.

The only time we saw them in the same wind/water off the start line Patriot seemed faster.

I think most of the difference was pressure on the favored side of the course and missed laylines that caused them to do a few more tacks.

We shall see as the racing goes on.

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5 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

I think most of the difference was pressure on the favored side of the course and missed laylines that caused them to do a few more tacks.

Pressure, smessher.  They were either smoked or sandbagging.  Place your bets.

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Not unreasonable. Carbon has great (strength,stiffness)/weight ratios but steel is still better for (strength/stiffness)/volume plus is much more forgiving in terms of manufacturing for the rudder shapes/sizes in question. Most likely most of the rudders in the fleet are made from both metal and carbon fiber but it wouldnt surprise me if teams had made shorter lead time foils or more likely elevators from pure metal.

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7 minutes ago, SoCalSlacker said:

Not unreasonable. Carbon has great (strength,stiffness)/weight ratios but steel is still better for (strength/stiffness)/volume plus is much more forgiving in terms of manufacturing for the rudder shapes/sizes in question. Most likely most of the rudders in the fleet are made from both metal and carbon fiber but it wouldnt surprise me if teams had made shorter lead time foils or more likely elevators from pure metal.

I recall that ETNZ switched to milled steel boards in AC35 to get sufficient strength for their narrow thin foils.

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25 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Eh?  How do they delaminate?

I didn't say anything about delaminating.... ???   Have you confused that with "milled" somehow?

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6 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I thought ETNZ foils in AC35 were delaminating during the Match.

Certainly not during the Cup, on their steel foils.  But perhaps they had carbon foils, with delam issues earlier in the series, before deciding they had to switch to steel? I don't know just when they switched.

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13 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I thought ETNZ foils in AC35 were delaminating during the Match.

As far as I remember they were on the last legs with their foils and were worried they could break at any time.  That’s what they said afterwards  anyway.   They were having them scanned for damage every night after racing.

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5 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Certainly not during the Cup, on their steel foils.  But perhaps they had carbon foils, with delam issues earlier in the series, before deciding they had to switch to steel? I don't know just when they switched.

No no no.  During the Match their favoured foils were delaminating. Lots of articles online about this.  Every night they were scanning them to see if they would last.

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

No no no.  During the Match their favoured foils were delaminating. Lots of articles online about this.  Every night they were scanning them to see if they would last.

I don't know if they were technically delaminating - rather the steel was starting to show signs of fatigue and hairline cracking (?) they were able to scan the foils to examine the internal steel to see the hairline cracks... kinda like aeronautical metal fatigue

https://www.zetec.com/blog/metal-fatigue-detection-using-advanced-ndt-to-identify-failing-metals/

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