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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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18 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I forget the exact part you are referring to, wasn’t it more about ETNZ losing a case where they wanted to prevent 2 days of Challs practice racing, unless ETNZ could be in the thick of it? 
 

Anyway, too late to raise the min wind limits at this stage. The promoters (GD, mainly?) are desperate to make the TV shows happen on time, is the only reason. It is about money more than about a proper test of this Class of... FOILERS! 

I was referring to his tease and guessing considering TH views on increasing the wind range. As it was it was about a practice series early next week. Though I am not sure if it is going to happen on the desired days (Monday Tuesday) and whether ACE will release the committee boats and whether TNZ would be allowed to sail (I think not).

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48 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Anyway, too late to raise the min wind limits at this stage. The promoters (GD, mainly?) are desperate to make the TV shows happen on time, is the only reason. It is about money more than about a proper test of this Class of... FOILERS! 

Yes, too late to change the rules, what we know and we don't about the AC75

1) Shit show in light conditions, the F50s are much better

2) Good show in medium

3) We don't know what they fare if they meet strong conditions

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Doing it again:

image.png.82fcaeb1dfd3f8abbb8e848b746cf62a.png

I used to give my dog worming tablets when she dragged her butt like that.

Twice in two days I believe... has Mr Barker got an itch that won't go away?

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13 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Doing it again:

image.png.82fcaeb1dfd3f8abbb8e848b746cf62a.png

I used to give my dog worming tablets when she dragged her butt like that.

Twice in two days I believe... has Mr Barker got an itch that won't go away?

probably just learning to use new kit

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Just now, jaysper said:

probably just learning to use new kit

No doubt... or testing as you must to find the limits - by exceeding them. :)

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, too late to change the rules, what we know and we don't about the AC75

1) Shit show in light conditions, the F50s are much better

2) Good show in medium

3) We don't know what they fare if they meet strong conditions

The F50's are a shit show in any breeze.

Just a "good show" in medium... typical bitter multihull supporter.

We know the F50's, nosedive, capsize, disintegrate, break apart and injure sailors in big breeze and have to limp back to base till the next day.

The AC75 are superior in every way.

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18 hours ago, XPRO said:

. Can we stick to sailing 

In discussing the AC? No. Sailing is one of the less interesting things about it. There are plenty of regattas out there if you want to talk about sailing. Well, usually.

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5 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Doing it again:

image.png.82fcaeb1dfd3f8abbb8e848b746cf62a.png

I used to give my dog worming tablets when she dragged her butt like that.

Twice in two days I believe... has Mr Barker got an itch that won't go away?

INEOS.. 

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7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, too late to change the rules, what we know and we don't about the AC75

1) Shit show in light conditions, the F50s are much better

2) Good show in medium

3) We don't know what they fare if they meet strong conditions

Still waiting for the footage of F50s knocking it out the park in 6-8 kts.. 

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, too late to change the rules, what we know and we don't about the AC75

1) Shit show in light conditions, the F50s are much better like any boat 

2) Good Petfect show in medium

3) We don't know what they fare if they meet strong conditions Probably crash, boom, bang like any of these boats on steroids (see AC50s). 

FIFY

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5 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:
8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, too late to change the rules, what we know and we don't about the AC75

1) Shit show in light conditions, the F50s are much better like any boat 

2) Good Petfect show in medium

3) We don't know what they fare if they meet strong conditions Probably crash, boom, bang like any of these boats on steroids (see AC50s). 

FIFY

This works as well.

 

605-09.jpg

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

probably just learning to use new kit

They mentioned working on "no look" transitions and using alternative crew assignments during such moves, so maybe the new kit is just people.

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35 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

TWS was 7 to 9,8 as indicated in the videos.

Still waiting for F50s to be ripping in that wind too..  and no a screen grab doesnt count for your TWS estimate.  It’s measured by race officer as an average and he confirmed is dropped under the minimum to start a race, which is 6.5kts. 
 

so pick a range and provide the evidence... 

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Terry took a few moments out of his busy schedule to talk with us earlier this week about the progress that American Magic has been making, and to reflect on the challenges that got them to this point.

Can you give your impressions of the recent ACWS?

https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/mark-reid-interviews-american-magics-terry-hutchinson/

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6 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Still waiting for F50s to be ripping in that wind too..  and no a screen grab doesnt count for your TWS estimate.  It’s measured by race officer as an average and he confirmed is dropped under the minimum to start a race, which is 6.5kts. 
 

so pick a range and provide the evidence... 

^^ Logic is not your strength isn't it ?

If you assume that a race officier measurement at a given time is true for the rest of the course then you should assume that the first one was good the race of the course, and it was not, si you evidence is based on a fallacious argument.

So the figures in real time are much better. Now you refuse to consider the TWS figures, I am sure that the kiwis are giving us good figures, however if you don't want to accept it fine, then watch the boat speed figures and try to figure the TWS. Now guess what ? they are about the same. And I still did not get your proof that an AC75 can go at 10 kts downwind archimedian in less than 6 kts. :)

So, the obvious as you still did not figure it out, is that the wind was the TWS indicated, or very close, but that these boats has to foil at 90- 80 degrees of the wind in foiling and that they would fall from the foils when tacking. I should not even explain that to sailors, I do it for non sailors.

 

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ Logic is not your strength isn't it ?

If you assume that a race officier measurement at a given time is true for the rest of the course then you should assume that the first one was good the race of the course, and it was not, si you evidence is based on a fallacious argument.

So the figures in real time are much better. Now you refuse to consider the TWS figures, I am sure that the kiwis are giving us good figures, however if you don't want to accept it fine, then watch the boat speed figures and try to figure the TWS. Now guess what ? they are about the same. And I still did not get your proof that an AC75 can go at 10 kts downwind archimedian in less than 6 kts. :)

So, the obvious as you still did not figure out, is that the wind was the TWS indicated, or very close, but that these boats has to foil at 90- 80 degrees of the wind in foiling and that they would fall from the foils when tacking. I should not even explain that to sailors, I do it for non sailors.

Cute. But still no foiling F50s to show for all your words.. 

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Cute. But still no foiling F50s to show for all your words.. 

^^  You have been commenting a post from Enzedel in another thread where he poste a video of F50s sailing in the wind conditions described above.

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8 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

A, they ain’t F50s

B they had higher wind limits. 

C. Using other people’s homework? Naughty boy, you made the claim so support it.

It was posted by Enzedel, not filmed by him, aren't you able to make the difference ?

The wind was around 8 kts during the race

F50s have a  wing extension thus bigger wing than the AC50s therefore can sail in even lighter conditions. Got it ?

Do you sail ? What is amusing is that the more you argue the wronger you get.

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44 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It was posted by Enzedel, not filmed by him, aren't you able to make the difference ?

The wind was around 8 kts during the race

F50s have a  wing extension thus bigger wing than the AC50s therefore can sail in even lighter conditions. Got it ?

Do you sail ? What is amusing is that the more you argue the wronger you get.

I sail considerably faster than you and my grasp of apparent wind sailing is practical rather than something someone read to you once upon a time from a book

Around 8 kts is still more wind than the level it dropped to in the Xmas cup race that forced the 75s off the foil. 

Make the difference? Wronger you get? Wtf man was mangling the English language something you studied or is a gift? 

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

I sail considerably faster than you and my grasp of apparent wind sailing is practical rather than something someone read to you once upon a time from a book

Around 8 kts is still more wind than the level it dropped to in the Xmas cup race that forced the 75s off the foil. 

Make the difference? Wronger you get? Wtf man was mangling the English language something you studied or is a gift? 

How low do you want to go?  They started in 7.5 knots.  Wind dropped to 5.3 knots and Artemis was doing 18 knots about 10 minutes into the video.  Granted the race was eventually abandoned due to the wind collapsing but an AC or F50 for that matter - has no problems sailing in 6 knots.  
 

https://youtu.be/pVGvYhP_-Lo

 

 

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I don't want to ruin a perfectly fine brawl on whose favorite boat class sucks more, just thought I'd provide some info to add fuel to the fire :D.

We don't have data from the Christmas regatta, but we have data from ACWS race 12 when both ETNZ and LR dropped off the foils for awhile.

First of all, TWS reading from LR was on average 1.5 kts higher than what's shown for ETNZ throughout that race. That just shows the limited accuracy of TWS data you see on the screen. This is calculated back from apparent wind speed, angle and boat speed and it's obviously not perfect. I doubt LR managed to stay in 1.5 kts stronger breeze throughout the race.

At the start the wind speed was around 8-9 kts for ETNZ and 9-10 kts on LR. They managed to pull off multiple tacks upwind no problem, and their top boat speeds were around 26 - 29 kts. Much higher than the AC50s in similar wind.

Then this is how they dropped off the foil. ETNZ had to go into a very high mode to get around the mark. At one point they were sailing less than 30 degrees to the wind. To make things worse, this is when the wind dropped below 7 kts (red arrows). They could only get up on foils once the wind got above 8.5 kts (green arrows).

LR dropped off the foils while jibing in 8 kts of wind (on their scale, which may be ~7 kts on ETNZs instruments). Their TWS jumps up to even 10 kts occasionally, but they can only start foiling again, when wind speed stays above 9 kts continuously for 30 sec (green arrow).

graphs.thumb.png.ef140160274681d21c69db56f49c8751.png

Since LR's instruments may have been measuring a little too high, I'd suggest the minimum wind speed for foiling with jibs is around 8 kts. That's actually the same I got with my VPP model. The code0 would help a little, in the model I could make the boat foil in 7 kts of wind and make pretty good progress both up and downwind, but the problem is that above 8 kts the jib becomes faster, so the range for the code0 is very narrow. It would be awesome if they  could figure out a way to switch between jib and code0 to deal with these situations. Isn't it what LR wished for - seeing the crew switching sails?:)).

In that AC35 LV SWE-NZL playoff match, they show average 7.5 kts wind at the start, but Joey Newton said at the time they had a small rain squall coming through with wind above 8 kts. The cats were struggling to get on the foils and stay on the foils. They did, but they weren't really fast. Even on the reach they stayed below 30 kts of speed. Downwind they had 25-26 kts and upwind less than 20 kts of speed. So yeah, they may have needed a little less wind to get up on the foils, but they weren't really fast. I'd also argue that once in displacement mode, the AC75s actually looked a bit better sailing  downwind than the cats.

BTW I think these light wind races are some of the most exciting. Huge ups-and-downs, big comebacks, interesting tactics. They shouldn't worry about viewers getting bored looking at boats not foiling. First, most of us sail boats like that and 2nd there will be plenty of foiling races, the occasional nail biter just adds to the drama. They should leave the wind limit where it is. Let the teams figure out how to deal with it.

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4 hours ago, Enzedel92 said:

AC or F50 for that matter - has no problems sailing in 6 knots.

The cats can put on a big set of foils to do that. The 75 is more limited in this regard.

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

The cats can put on a big set of foils to do that. The 75 is more limited in this regard.

This is why comparisons and claims between different classes are fucking stupid 

if you wanted to foil in the wind that scupperd the Xmas race with ETNZ and GB  you would be kite foiling with a 21-25m kite foil and a 70kg rider. 
Yet you dont have people saying that’s a better class for racing the AC in do you TC? 

 

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4 hours ago, erdb said:

I don't want to ruin a perfectly fine brawl on whose favorite boat class sucks more, just thought I'd provide some info to add fuel to the fire :D.

We don't have data from the Christmas regatta, but we have data from ACWS race 12 when both ETNZ and LR dropped off the foils for awhile.

First of all, TWS reading from LR was on average 1.5 kts higher than what's shown for ETNZ throughout that race. That just shows the limited accuracy of TWS data you see on the screen. This is calculated back from apparent wind speed, angle and boat speed and it's obviously not perfect. I doubt LR managed to stay in 1.5 kts stronger breeze throughout the race.

At the start the wind speed was around 8-9 kts for ETNZ and 9-10 kts on LR. They managed to pull off multiple tacks upwind no problem, and their top boat speeds were around 26 - 29 kts. Much higher than the AC50s in similar wind.

Then this is how they dropped off the foil. ETNZ had to go into a very high mode to get around the mark. At one point they were sailing less than 30 degrees to the wind. To make things worse, this is when the wind dropped below 7 kts (red arrows). They could only get up on foils once the wind got above 8.5 kts (green arrows).

LR dropped off the foils while jibing in 8 kts of wind (on their scale, which may be ~7 kts on ETNZs instruments). Their TWS jumps up to even 10 kts occasionally, but they can only start foiling again, when wind speed stays above 9 kts continuously for 30 sec (green arrow).

graphs.thumb.png.ef140160274681d21c69db56f49c8751.png

Since LR's instruments may have been measuring a little too high, I'd suggest the minimum wind speed for foiling with jibs is around 8 kts. That's actually the same I got with my VPP model. The code0 would help a little, in the model I could make the boat foil in 7 kts of wind and make pretty good progress both up and downwind, but the problem is that above 8 kts the jib becomes faster, so the range for the code0 is very narrow. It would be awesome if they  could figure out a way to switch between jib and code0 to deal with these situations. Isn't it what LR wished for - seeing the crew switching sails?:)).

In that AC35 LV SWE-NZL playoff match, they show average 7.5 kts wind at the start, but Joey Newton said at the time they had a small rain squall coming through with wind above 8 kts. The cats were struggling to get on the foils and stay on the foils. They did, but they weren't really fast. Even on the reach they stayed below 30 kts of speed. Downwind they had 25-26 kts and upwind less than 20 kts of speed. So yeah, they may have needed a little less wind to get up on the foils, but they weren't really fast. I'd also argue that once in displacement mode, the AC75s actually looked a bit better sailing  downwind than the cats.

BTW I think these light wind races are some of the most exciting. Huge ups-and-downs, big comebacks, interesting tactics. They shouldn't worry about viewers getting bored looking at boats not foiling. First, most of us sail boats like that and 2nd there will be plenty of foiling races, the occasional nail biter just adds to the drama. They should leave the wind limit where it is. Let the teams figure out how to deal with it.

Good analysis. I just add that probably LR came off the foils in a not too marginal gybe, where they were also decently fast at the entry, because they losr the rudder mid-gybe. It is pretty clear from the onboard audio

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Patriot will be tapped out long before the other teams, especially LR. You can bet Max has taken the same approach ETNZ did last cycle, just doing enough to get through the first rounds, then bringing all of their new toys to bear at the end. 

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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

That kinda made my day :) 

Thanks !!!

So great for you, but is this honestly where journalism has landed? 

Quoting SAers impression of a noise made on a video?

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5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Patriot will be tapped out long before the other teams, especially LR. You can bet Max has taken the same approach ETNZ did last cycle, just doing enough to get through the first rounds, then bringing all of their new toys to bear at the end. 

That will depend upon whether they can do that.

They may find out they are looking at the exit door early on and be forced to bring all their toys out earlier.

But yeah, seems unlikely given how poorly INEOS have been.

I know their is a lot of talk if their improvement, but it wasn't a gap before Xmas - it was a chasm.

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11 minutes ago, jaysper said:

So great for you, but is this honestly where journalism has landed? 

Quoting SAers impression of a noise made on a video?

:D yes. 2021 will be great.

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Interesting point form LSD about the smaller mainsail. Sort of scalloped top keeping the full batten length. Full girth for the lower half. They mentioned that maybe the top batten lengths had something to with the requirement for minimal sail area in the rule. So is there a minimum as well as maximum measurement? Also the view that in anything over around 12/14 knots they are overpowered up top.

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

Interesting point form LSD about the smaller mainsail. Sort of scalloped top keeping the full batten length. Full girth for the lower half. They mentioned that maybe the top batten lengths had something to with the requirement for minimal sail area in the rule. So is there a minimum as well as maximum measurement? Also the view that in anything over around 12/14 knots they are overpowered up top.

Maybe avoids having to have any active control up top in breeze, cheap and cheerful way to depower up top, just chop off some of the main. Somewhere I read a 7:1 RM penalty for any weight at the masthead. 

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18 hours ago, Matagi said:

:D yes. 2021 will be great.

As they say. A day is a long time in pitch polling...icks.

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4 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Interesting point form LSD about the smaller mainsail. Sort of scalloped top keeping the full batten length. Full girth for the lower half. They mentioned that maybe the top batten lengths had something to with the requirement for minimal sail area in the rule. So is there a minimum as well as maximum measurement? Also the view that in anything over around 12/14 knots they are overpowered up top.

This is AM's second iteration of the batwing, the new one retains a full area in the lower half of the sail:

image.png.c3b38aaf858c52336f29eeb327b47780.png

And yes, sail size must be 135-145m2, AM found a way to exploit the measuring system.

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13 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

This is AM's second iteration of the batwing, the new one retains a full area in the lower half of the sail:

 

And yes, sail size must be 135-145m2, AM found a way to exploit the measuring system.

Indeed, interpetation 66 is relevant if anyone is interested. Not I would suggest within the intent of the law, but within the letter. Quite clever (albeit unusual to find someone exploiting a rule to get away with a smaller sail)

 

https://docs.google.com/a/acofficials.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NGJhNDExOGVmODc0MDc2YQ

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3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Indeed, interpetation 66 is relevant if anyone is interested. Not I would suggest within the intent of the law, but within the letter. Quite clever (albeit unusual to find someone exploiting a rule to get away with a smaller sail)

 

https://docs.google.com/a/acofficials.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NGJhNDExOGVmODc0MDc2YQ

These boats are all about balance. Perhaps having a scalloped/smaller upper allows changes in how the boards/foils are used giving them greater speed or better VMG.

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31 minutes ago, I14RACER said:

These boats are all about balance. Perhaps having a scalloped/smaller upper allows changes in how the boards/foils are used giving them greater speed or better VMG.

Less upper zone inversion, or at least neutral awa would mean less drag.

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42 minutes ago, I14RACER said:

These boats are all about balance. Perhaps having a scalloped/smaller upper allows changes in how the boards/foils are used giving them greater speed or better VMG.

Exactly. The way it works out, the lower the center of effort of the sails, the farther the foil can be canted out. You can lower center of effort either by twisting the top of the sail out or by reducing sail area up high . A smaller sail with less twist may be more efficient once the boat is up to speed, but having less sail area could be a disadvantage when accelerating / getting on foils.

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14 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Not I would suggest within the intent of the law, but within the letter. Quite clever (albeit unusual to find someone exploiting a rule to get away with a smaller sail) 

In a class that has been full of unexpected innovations/design solutions I find this arguably the most surprising.

Having seen the sails, reading the interpretation you can see they were pushing to do this smaller than measured sail but the MC clearly thought they were doing the more normal attempt to gain area between the battens.

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1 hour ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Unless you over twist the head for righting moment 

Yeah, but that increases drag as well. So for minimum drag and max speed, the smaller sail without excessive twist is probably faster. However, you may pay for the missing sail area when getting on foils or maybe even downwind.

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In the Live, sail die video of the last practice day, they say the consensus is that AM looks to be the fastest of the challengers.  They think she is the closest to NZ, maybe just a slight click slower.  They though AM was a click faster than LR who was a click faster than UK.

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58 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

 

This is doing the rounds on FB. I'm pretty skeptical that it's real. 

Your scepticism is understandable, but if it is photoshop its quite good. There is distinct disturbance in the water where you would expect, and one of the crew is looking at the foil which would make sense.

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Your scepticism is understandable, but if it is photoshop its quite good.

Could be real. You don't get huge sharks in the harbour and inner gulf, and that guy looks about the right size. They get a bit bigger further out, Bronzies and Mako's hanging around Horn Rock.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

In the Live, sail die video of the last practice day, they say the consensus is that AM looks to be the fastest of the challengers.  They think she is the closest to NZ, maybe just a slight click slower.  They though AM was a click faster than LR who was a click faster than UK.

I kinda agree.

But people from Luna rossa (Bruni as well, who is not cocky at all) continue to say that AM has big issues in the light, and goes well only in the breeze.  Not sure if we are missing some performance comparison in the <10knots range and we are just too much focusing in the 10-18 range.

We'll see soon I guess.

 

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Would someone explain the interpretation on main measurement in layman's terms? I'm trying to visualize the hollow, distortion, and how bridging them allows the sail to be cut smaller than measured area. Regardless, it's quite clever.  

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The battens are the measurement points and the fact that the sail "cloth" doesn't go all the way to the end of the batten creates a hollow. The measuring process allows for the measurer to measure the outside dimensions of the sail and to "bridge" any hollows by measuring from one outside point to the next and ignore that there isn't any actual sail there, just battens.

This is done because sails are 3D but are measured on a flat surface, so sometimes you get these hollows. AM have created them intentionally to get a sail that is smaller than the minimum prescribed in the rules.

TL;DR - when measured, the whole outline of the sail including the battens counts towards the area even though the cloth doesn't actually cover that whole area.

The measured area of the sail is larger than the effective area.

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Your scepticism is understandable, but if it is photoshop its quite good. There is distinct disturbance in the water where you would expect, and one of the crew is looking at the foil which would make sense.

It’s also a view that you don’t get in the TV coverage, so at the very least the base image would need to have been sourced through the team.

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

+138511403_10164714464215343_7043147945682249446_n.jpg.e24edf4d8b591d2b678b5bae57fd04c8.jpg

This is doing the rounds on FB. I'm pretty skeptical that it's real. 

My estimate is that it is fake.  There is a white halo around parts fo the shark and the sailor looking over the side.

 436967857_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_22_46PM.png.ae02904395690fc862fe31bf62906fd5.png597612105_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_23_22PM.png.fc1258ec7b796c4195a90e3b043bc9e7.png

I also tried using one of the fake picture testing sites, but it is difficult to use on pictures that are saved on facebook because of the quality reduction.  This test the differences in picture resolution.

165316601_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_05_58PM.thumb.png.f012d75b8d91eba343ed5d3a4b53fca7.png

Plus, the foil bulb doesn't look like the AM foil (as I14Racer points out).

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26 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

My estimate is that it is fake.  There is a white halo around parts fo the shark and the sailor looking over the side.

 436967857_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_22_46PM.png.ae02904395690fc862fe31bf62906fd5.png597612105_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_23_22PM.png.fc1258ec7b796c4195a90e3b043bc9e7.png

I also tried using one of the fake picture testing sites, but it is difficult to use on pictures that are saved on facebook because of the quality reduction.  This test the differences in picture resolution.

165316601_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_05_58PM.thumb.png.f012d75b8d91eba343ed5d3a4b53fca7.png

Plus, the foil bulb doesn't look like the AM foil (as I14Racer points out).

Amway is the only boat running with with all black foil arms it would make for a complicated photoshop to add another foil and a shark.

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22 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

THutch said in a US Sailing interview recorded on Jan 3 that AM had not yet revealed their 3rd set of foils. Have we seen that set yet? 

Not that I'm aware of.

Have we seen ETNZs?

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2 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

The battens are the measurement points and the fact that the sail "cloth" doesn't go all the way to the end of the batten creates a hollow. The measuring process allows for the measurer to measure the outside dimensions of the sail and to "bridge" any hollows by measuring from one outside point to the next and ignore that there isn't any actual sail there, just battens.

This is done because sails are 3D but are measured on a flat surface, so sometimes you get these hollows. AM have created them intentionally to get a sail that is smaller than the minimum prescribed in the rules.

TL;DR - when measured, the whole outline of the sail including the battens counts towards the area even though the cloth doesn't actually cover that whole area.

The measured area of the sail is larger than the effective area.

Thanks for that!

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

My estimate is that it is fake.  There is a white halo around parts fo the shark and the sailor looking over the side.

 436967857_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_22_46PM.png.ae02904395690fc862fe31bf62906fd5.png597612105_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_23_22PM.png.fc1258ec7b796c4195a90e3b043bc9e7.png

I also tried using one of the fake picture testing sites, but it is difficult to use on pictures that are saved on facebook because of the quality reduction.  This test the differences in picture resolution.

165316601_ScreenShot2021-01-12at1_05_58PM.thumb.png.f012d75b8d91eba343ed5d3a4b53fca7.png

Plus, the foil bulb doesn't look like the AM foil (as I14Racer points out).

Unless it is foil set 3...

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Could be real. You don't get huge sharks in the harbour and inner gulf, and that guy looks about the right size. They get a bit bigger further out, Bronzies and Mako's hanging around Horn Rock.

there are plenty of "huge" sharks in the inner gulf. I have personal hooked and tagged bronze whaler sharks estimated 150kg+ at music point howick, parks point waiheke and clevedon flats Kawakawa so all surrounding areas of the inner courses (I haven't done it but i understand there is a good population of them off the Chelsea sugar factory hole)

from that picture, it looks to be about 3/4 the length of the foil so say est 1.5m ... that's a small one

if I remember correctly LR hit a seal in San Fran which knocked them off the foil and did some damage

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

+138511403_10164714464215343_7043147945682249446_n.jpg.e24edf4d8b591d2b678b5bae57fd04c8.jpg

This is doing the rounds on FB. I'm pretty skeptical that it's real. 

That exceeds the 20% modification limits. 

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1 hour ago, Lickindip said:

there are plenty of "huge" sharks in the inner gulf. I have personal hooked and tagged bronze whaler sharks estimated 150kg+ at music point howick, parks point waiheke and clevedon flats Kawakawa so all surrounding areas of the inner courses (I haven't done it but i understand there is a good population of them off the Chelsea sugar factory hole)

Interesting. Can't say I've ever fished off Howick, or anywhere around there. 

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On 1/9/2021 at 2:36 PM, Forourselves said:

The F50's are a shit show in any breeze.

Just a "good show" in medium... typical bitter multihull supporter.

We know the F50's, nosedive, capsize, disintegrate, break apart and injure sailors in big breeze and have to limp back to base till the next day.

The AC75 are superior in every way.

He got spat out in another thread for his lame comparison too.   No fuckn idea 

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

That exceeds the 20% modification limits. 

that shark's position defies physics.    

If the head is in the water creating that water disturbance, the fish would flop over and off the foil.    The air resistance above would be nowhere near what was needed to balance the force of the water.

My bet:  Fake

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43 minutes ago, fish7yu said:

 

Good listen.  Couple of key points:

- They have not yet used their third set of foils.  It will be a natural progression from the first two sets of foils.

- NZ has slightly smaller foils than AM, LR are large and UK 's are the largest.  Rumors are that LR is going to smaller foils.

- Have to decide to use small foils for speed or large foils for better take off.  The larger foils give up speed at anything over 10 knots of wind speed.  Small foils mean you need to learn how to stay up on the foils because of the penalty of not being able to get back up as fast.  But he did say that it was interesting that the boat with the smaller foils (NZ) was all to get up better than the boat with larger foils in the races.

- He finds is interesting that NZ has a straight foil (like they started out with on the Mule) because they pay a drag penalty by having the arm about 300 mm longer.

- He says Dean has always stressed that we will never make a slow foil fast, so they have constantly pushed to use smaller foils.

- Gary said that worrying about if you made the foils too small so you couldn't get back up out of the water would keep him awake at night, TH said: yup, that a fact!

- TH says their upwind apparent wind angle is around 18 degrees

- they have been well into the 50's on numerous occasions.  TH said told Gary that they would pass him on US route 50.  By Annapolis the speed limit is 65 mph (56.5 Knots!)

- first area of development has been in aero world and setup, second was in improving the flying shapes of the sails and boat balance the third is tactical racing side...

- Each boat sails differently

- The learning curve is so steep that they are taking huge bites out of the apple each time out.

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10 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

- He finds is interesting that NZ has a straight foil (like they started out with on the Mule) because they pay a drag penalty by having the arm about 300 mm longer.

Interesting, thanks for the summary.

300 mm longer arm means more RM and more drag but flat foils allow the same lift with a smaller span therefore less drag, the tradeoff being probably being less stable.

Anarchist specialists here will do the maths.