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49 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

The hole, I am told, was caused by the FCS battery dislodging and flying through the hull on splash down. 

My take on the communications: Terry might have liked the left hand side, but if the main trimmer doesn't think they can cope with the power, then you follow his advice (he is after all, a 3 time moth world champion) Dean needs to listen to his crew, they are very good. Ultimately, they had a commanding lead and didn't need to take risks. Could it have worked if the backstay had eased? Maybe, but it was never worth the risk in the context of the racing scenario.  

I really hope they can recover, because they have a good boat and the team rolls / decision making problems are easy to fix. 

 

Goodison was crystal clear that he did not want to tack and bear away.    He is the key  member of the team who added moth foiling experience to the older TP52 guys. Why did the decision making process not absorb his call.  Not a peep out of TH at that moment so Im guessing the call is down to Dean.

The riskier move when in the lead? Who had their head out of the boat seeing the massive puff coming down the course?

Question  Was the runner incorrect for a normal bear away or was it in the right position ? Did somebody screw up, or was it set for downwind but needed to be eased more once the maneuver was in trouble?

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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9 minutes ago, hasmat said:

I’m in agreement on this view. 

 

5 minutes ago, Murphness said:

The problem with TH is that he presumably put his weight behind the decision to hire the skipper who holds the title for what is perhaps the biggest failure in sports history. Good riddance.

It is TH who should be going if anyone from the after guard.

He should be ashore like grant with goodison calling the shots plus a younger foilerist.

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8 minutes ago, sailfly said:

 

Wow.  Hard to see how that boat sails again based on the size of the hole, location and my tiny understanding of the loads the hull goes through during a race.  

Anyway, the person bailing water out of the hole as the boat slides into the shed is a hell of a visual.  Thankfully no one was seriously hurt. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

 

It is TH who should be going if anyone from the after guard.

He should be ashore like grant with goodison calling the shots plus a younger foilerist.

Agree that a foiler has better real world experiences to input into the decision process.  Goodison saw it coming. Deano didn’t. 

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I wondered if they should give Goody the helm or tactician role. 3 time moth world champion. Olympic Gold medal. 

I note that Goody seems to have advisory input language.  They need a tactician who makes the calls and can decide to abort the tack and go for a bear away in a nano second

Terry might be better running the team from off the boat.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

I feel a bit like when Vestas hit the reef. Helpless, disbelieving and sometimes still in denial.

Poor chaps on AM.

This. So sorry to see this happen regardless of how it did. Really hope they can fix but it’s a very tall order.

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

The skipper is TH, DB is the helmsmen.  I think they need to free up Goddison to do a role like Giles.  I am beginning to see that INEOS has played a blinder with their crew set up. The after guard is more important than any other AC race in history.  You get into even the slightest wrong part of the course the opposition can make 500 m.  I was also wondering why they removed a hatch when it was on its side after the capsize...Did that cause the water ingress? Or is it hull damage?  Ah just seen a fridge shaped hole. eddited

Very good point.  There is such devastating penalties when you make the wrong call.  UK has made tremendous changes, but they do not have the fastest boat.  They are 4-0 because they made the right decisions on how to sail a competitive boat.

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Hanging Deano out to dry over this is bullshit, his job was to drive the boat fast which he was doing.

Do you think this team had not done or practiced such a move before?

What made this go pear shaped was someone left a runner on resulting in the main loading up in the bear away.

TH should not have his head down grinding there is  too much shit and puffs that are not being noted and adjusted for,  a tactician has to have his head out of the boat.

 

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I think the hull totaled. You can see the hull flex when the bow impacts the water. There will be more cracks than what meets the eye. 
Same type of failure as PRB in the Vendée 

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Commiserations to US and good luck from Brits that you get it back at least in time for the semi's.

Whatever the cause of the accident that is not the way I would want to see anyone lose.

 

Glad that all the teams helped salvage and the Brits have offered to help fix (others may have too but if so I have missed it amongst so much news).

But most of all I am glad that AFAIK all the sailors are unharmed

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7 minutes ago, heavym210 said:

I think the hull totaled. You can see the hull flex when the bow impacts the water. There will be more cracks than what meets the eye. 
Same type of failure as PRB in the Vendée 

Yes, you could see the forestay sag on impact (ok could be the rig bending) so no doubt there are stress fractures across the bow. Now what gets me is the size and shape of the hole - my first thought was that something inside the boat broke free on impact and punctured the hull from the inside.

This is not a quick fix. 

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

Hanging Deano out to dry over this is bullshit, his job was to drive the boat fast which he was doing.

Do you think this team had not done or practiced such a move before?

What made this go pear shaped was someone left a runner on resulting in the main loading up in the bear away.

TH should not have his head down grinding there is  too much shit and puffs that are not being noted and adjusted for,  a tactician has to have his head out of the boat.

 

Completely agree. Leaving a runner on always has consequences. The bigger the breeze the bigger the consequences. To suggest, as on the front page that on a 'conventional' boat  it would be a 'minor error' is frequently NOT true. 

The main on Patriot loaded up because it couldn't be un-loaded and that is NOT the helmsman's job. Add to that the fact that a tactician cannot really do his job (eyes out of the boat) while hunched over a grinder puffing away. 

Attached is a still from a video (apologies for the quality the original was a VHS tape) of Rothmans (the Whitbread boat) about 30 seconds after a gybe where the runner bunny didn't spin the line off the winch when they should have. That's 40 grand's worth of kite in tatters (at 1980's prices).

Leaving a runner on when it shouldn't be will always affect performance although not always as drastic as Rothmans - or Patriot.

For the record both my boats are fractional, one with runners, the other with runners and checks and I can assure you it can get hairy if someone is dilatory when letting off the old runner.

Here's hoping they can put her back together in time for the semis & I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if help was offered  by the other teams but pride (and need for IP protection) means it would be respectfully turned down. 

Best news of the day though is all on board are safe.

SS

Rothmans Blow 40 grand kite.jpg

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4 minutes ago, kof said:

Yes, you could see the forestay sag on impact (ok could be the rig bending) so no doubt there are stress fractures across the bow. Now what gets me is the size and shape of the hole - my first thought was that something inside the boat broke free on impact and punctured the hull from the inside.

This is not a quick fix. 

You can read it in #11878, that someone heart someone to say, the FCS batterie dropped through the hull... If not „fake news“ this could be a good reason. On impact, these things can fly if not sealed bomb proof. 

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2 minutes ago, Manfred said:

You can read it in #11878, that someone heart someone to say, the FCS batterie dropped through the hull... If not „fake news“ this could be a good reason. On impact, these things can fly if not sealed bomb proof. 

Ah ok.  To me that makes sense - the hole looks wrong for an outside-in impact (you would get more longitudinal stress cracks and tearing)  but just about right for a nice heavy battery breaking free.

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12 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

TH should not have his head down grinding there is  too much shit and puffs that are not being noted and adjusted for,  a tactician has to have his head out of the boat.

 

If you look at the decision making:

-they were on port at the top of the beat

-the wind was hard left.., so the primary concern was to be on starboard as early as possible on the run, after rounding the mark

-two choices; left mark, tack, bear away.., or , right mark, bear away, gybe - both get you on starboard

-with the wind hard left, the right mark is actually the favored mark, from a geometry perspective - it's further down wind

- for most of the beat the pressure had been stronger on the left, so they were thinking left mark to stay in the pressure overrides any small geometric advantage to the right mark.

- but - by the time they got up close, when the decision had to be made, there was _plenty_ of wind across the course, and had they gone to the right mark, they would have had plenty of power to gybe and get back to the left.

- with TH head down, and DB not looking around, i don't think they even realized how well the breeze had filled across the course and that right mark had become an acceptable choice.

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I just think back to just before the mark rounding when voices started going up octaves and wanting to hear what was going on but we couldn’t because Kenny and that McIver dolt wouldn’t stop talking.  Sure it’s their job but...

WetHog  :ph34r:

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29 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Hanging Deano out to dry over this is bullshit, his job was to drive the boat fast which he was doing.

Do you think this team had not done or practiced such a move before?

What made this go pear shaped was someone left a runner on resulting in the main loading up in the bear away.

TH should not have his head down grinding there is  too much shit and puffs that are not being noted and adjusted for,  a tactician has to have his head out of the boat.

 

I’ll hang it on Dean: he had a comfortable lead; he ignored the advice of his main trimmer; he took the high risk choice over the low risk.  Then bad luck pounced - a lefty, a runner left on, and pressure.

if Dean had gone for the low risk path I think it’s likely they would have finished the race in one piece.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I just think back to just before the mark rounding when voices started going up octaves and wanting to hear what was going on but we couldn’t because Kenny and that McIver dolt wouldn’t stop talking.  Sure it’s their job but...

WetHog  :ph34r:

Well said Wethog, for what it's worth totally agree with y'all....

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Ultrasound and thermography (NDT) of the hull structure and rig required, doing this alone and interpretation of results a multi day job. They may be back for the repêchage but I would be amazed if any sooner. 

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4 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I just think back to just before the mark rounding when voices started going up octaves and wanting to hear what was going on but we couldn’t because Kenny and that McIver dolt wouldn’t stop talking.  Sure it’s their job but...

WetHog  :ph34r:

watch the sterncam feed - you can hear everything...

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10 minutes ago, bigorangething said:

if Dean had gone for the low risk path I think it’s likely they would have finished the race in one piece

Hindsight is a useless tool that does nothing but confirm history...... If.... woulda / coulda / shoulda does nothing but get you an audition for a frikkin talk show.....

Gentlemen, those event's happened, if aint fixing that boat..... now lets see what the experts say if Patriot is totaled, do they have a 2nd boat in AKL that could be measured and made ready in the same time?

Regardless this will go down in the books as a real learning experience for a lot of people..... Rightly or wrongly some people will be paying with their livelihoods I guess some into early retirement.... SHIT WILL STICK FROM THIS ONE

Edited by Piet56
spell check failure....
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14 minutes ago, bigorangething said:

I’ll hang it on Dean: he had a comfortable lead; he ignored the advice of his main trimmer; he took the high risk choice over the low risk.  Then bad luck pounced - a lefty, a runner left on, and pressure.

if Dean had gone for the low risk path I think it’s likely they would have finished the race in one piece.

 

 

Who's the Skipper?

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8 hours ago, Zeusproject said:

True but in the end the wheel is turned by who.    The skipper

Wrong, Barker is the helmsman, Hutchinson is the skipper, at least according to the official roster ;)

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5 hours ago, Rushman said:

That looks nothing like the bit that was delivered to the base earlier

If a heavy battery rams through it it might not be straight anymore ;)

 

5 hours ago, james3232 said:

Yeah 100% ram pushing through the hull on touchdown IMO

 

More likely some heavy equipment, like a heavy battery, shoot through the hull (if that hole was not made bigger and square by the divers for whatever reason)

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Plenty of blame to go around in this chain of events. 

  • Someone F'ed up the runners. Could be crew, could be equipment. 
  • Barker chose a risky move over a "safe" move when he had a cushy lead
  • Terry was grinding instead of watching for wind lines
  • Random engineer insufficiently accounted for impact loads upon the battery units at 40 kts. 
  • 100 other possible problems with flight control hardware, software, carbonware, hydraulicware, and computerware. 

Bottom line is that a slower conservative rounding would have gotten the job done.  

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Sailing normal monohulls, where Terry and Dean have most experience, it is often considered safer in extreme conditions to tack and then bear away, rather than bearing away and gybing.  So, they may have been acting instinctually.  Paul was the only one with extensive foiling success and experience.  As in this example, there isn't the time to debate, or even for the tactician to pass the information to the helmsman (Particularly if you leave it to the last minute, as they seemed to have).  Paul, and his foiling instincts, should be driving . 

 

 

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Just in.

 

AMERICAN MAGIC'S AC75 SURVIVES CRASH, DAMAGE AND NEAR-SINKING ON THE HAURAKI GULF

The U.S. Challenger for the America's Cup receives assistance from competitors, race management officials, and local rescue services in the fight to save PATRIOT, the team's racing yacht.

Auckland, New Zealand - After racing into a squall, crashing, capsizing, incurring significant damage and coming close to sinking, American Magic’s AC75 racing yacht, PATRIOT, made it back to shore at 10:45 PM NZDT after a herculean effort to save the boat. 

“First and foremost, we are incredibly grateful and thankful that everybody is safe,” said Terry Hutchinson, Skipper and Executive Director of American Magic, the U.S. Challenger for the America’s Cup. “The team did an incredible job getting PATRIOT back to the dock.”

The arrival of the American AC75 back to the team base in Wynyard Quarter was due not only to the perseverance of the team, which never gave up the fight over many hours, but that of the greater Auckland and America’s Cup communities. The three other Cup teams, the AC36 event management team,  and multiple branches of Auckland’s rescue services came to the aid of American Magic in a moment of urgent need.

“The response from the local community here was incredible, and you can't give enough thanks to the police, fire and local authorities for their quick response,” said Hutchinson shortly after stepping ashore, in darkness, alongside his exhausted but relieved teammates.  

“The response from the other teams was amazing, too. It was certainly heartwarming to see all the support, and obviously we needed it because this was a crisis situation. Huge thanks to Emirates Team New Zealand, to INEOS Team UK, and to Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli for coming out and helping us.”

On the final leg of a race she was leading, a significant puff of wind sent the American AC75 hurtling into the air, followed by a hard re-entry into the water. The shock of the landing tore a hole into the port side of the yacht, which was not immediately apparent to the sailors onboard. PATRIOT capsized sideways into the water, port side down, which temporarily hid the extent of the damage. 

After following well-practiced capsize procedures, and determining that all were safe, American Magic righted the yacht to discover that she was sitting low in the water. It was apparent that this was a much different scenario than the team’s previous AC75 capsize, which occurred with the team’s now-retired first AC75, DEFIANT.


“We knew something was wrong straight away,” said Hutchinson. “When we tipped DEFIANT over, the boat was pretty buoyant and sat pretty high on her side. When we righted DEFIANT, and as we saw with Team New Zealand a few days ago when they righted their boat, the recovery was instantaneous. As soon as you get the breeze underneath the boat, underneath the mainsail, the boat pops back up.”

“Today on PATRIOT, when I was getting out of my cockpit, we were lower in the water. The ‘pop-up’ wasn't happening. So that was kind of the first indication. [Boat Captain] Tyson [Lamond] came through the comms saying ‘I think there's a hole in the boat.’ We spent the next couple of hours securing the platform.”

In terms of how the team will move forward, Hutchinson said the process of damage analysis, repair planning and repair execution would begin tonight and continue nonstop in an effort to get PATRIOT back in action.

“We have to see what the damage is on the inside of the boat, apart from the hole. Fortunately we're here at our base now, they're getting the rig out, and we'll assess the damage and go forward.”

Hutchinson said that this type of incident would certainly be a major challenge to overcome, especially with only 12 days remaining until the Prada Cup semifinals. He also said that the resilience of his team is never in doubt.  

“Time and time again, American Magic has always responded to the adverse situations that we've been faced with, be it COVID-19 or other things we've come across in the last three years,” said Hutchinson. “This one is probably a bit of a larger challenge, but as always, how you get up is more important than how you get knocked down. I'm confident in us. I'm confident in our people.”

 
A race that will be long-remembered for the dramatic events that followed it got off to a challenging start for American Magic. The team was caught out of position in the pre-start and entered the starting box both late and in a vulnerable position. Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli tried to take advantage of the mistake and force a foul, but the umpires waved it off. After this close call, the remainder of the pre-start was an even affair. Both boats charged across the line in sync, with American Magic in the windward position.  
 
Luna Rossa earned the first cross, but the race soon turned in favor of American Magic. Both boats sailed the first beat in 15 to 20 knots of breeze, and the day was a showcase of the immense upwind performance of the AC75 class. The two Challengers charged up the course at nearly 40 knots of boatspeed. Helmsman Dean Barker and Skipper/Tactician Terry Hutchinson took advantage of a favorable lefthand shift in the breeze, and what appeared to be a slight speed advantage, to put American Magic in position to lead Luna Rossa into the top mark. After another unsuccessful penalty request from Luna Rossa, Dean Barker steered PATRIOT through the windward gate 6 seconds ahead of the Italians.  
 
A solid run saw the lead double to 13 seconds. Both boats rounded the lefthand gate in a very fresh breeze. Halfway up the second beat, Luna Rossa incurred a penalty for a boundary violation and dropped a little further behind. The lead doubled to nearly 30 seconds at the top mark and with a big shift to the left, American Magic was able to lay the leeward gate on starboard jibe after just a short stretch on port jibe around the top mark. 

“That squall was moving down the left side of the racetrack, and so we came in around the bottom mark, we trimmed up and sailed 20 seconds to the boundary and tacked,” said Hutchinson. “We tacked in like nine knots of breeze, after having much more than that for most of the race. The breeze was just evaporating all over the place. And so, you know, as we've learned over the last couple of days, you have to be in the pressure or the breeze can evaporate on you.”
 
The final upwind leg was similarly one-sided and American Magic took advantage of the bias to increase its advantage heading into the final mark. This is when disaster struck for the Americans in the form of another left shift and a significant increase in the windspeed due to an oncoming squall. PATRIOT went for the left gate mark, rounded, and then reared up, crashed down and capsized to port. 

“Dean made the correct decision to tack around the left gate, keep us in the pressure and just try to deliver us down to the finish. We got hit by a reasonably big gust. When you're racing the boat, you're racing the boat.”

As the AC75’s are not self-righting, the race against Luna Rossa was over. A second race began almost immediately to save a damaged PATRIOT from sinking. The unfortunate series of events ripped away a much-needed first Prada Cup victory from the U.S. team. Luna Rossa was awarded their second point of the regatta. 

“Obviously it's not exactly the day that we wanted,” said Hutchinson. “We had a good race going and the boat was going really well.”

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

What a job list

pull out all the internals ( Hydraulics and electronics)

fix the hole or holes

fix the internal systems

test the internals

reinstall internals 

test boat

 

And review tactical decision making.

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16 minutes ago, pwormwood said:

Sailing normal monohulls, where Terry and Dean have most experience, it is often considered safer in extreme conditions to tack and then bear away, rather than bearing away and gybing.  So, they may have been acting instinctually.  Paul was the only one with extensive foiling success and experience.  As in this example, there isn't the time to debate, or even for the tactician to pass the information to the helmsman (Particularly if you leave it to the last minute, as they seemed to have).  Paul, and his foiling instincts, should be driving . 

 

 

Dean Barker has as much experience sailing large foiling sailing boats as anyone in the world.  He was at the wheel when the first AC72 started foiling.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Just before Goodison makes his remark, at 2.44.41, DB starts asking a question: 'Would you take the left gate even with a tack to...'

He then gets interrupted by TH (at least that who it sounds like) saying '100 meters'

So DB was not sure about the approach, but did not get any response, then the puff came in and by then it was too late to do anything else...

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3 hours ago, .......................... said:

Chatting with some of the boys, we are thinking through this, all those planning , design, management, shipping logistics and sailing hours for what , three years.  If you do a linear timeline they all stop at the point that the runner failed or someone did not do their job of release as they were looking down course. Also interesting is that they did a tack/bear-away with the main trimmer and helm on the low side...  

And what about TH as tactician?
Does he change sides, or does he watch the race from his grinder hole on the leeward side one moment and then from windward side the next?
And from the leeward side how can he see what's going on?

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Bad day to pick on the afterguard - but.....  as I have said too many too many times - and as we all learned in junior sailing, “it’s all about time in the boat” - Put Glenn Ashby in a foiling A-Cat and he wins the worlds (10 times) and Peter’s and Blair have a shot at the podium.  Put TH or DB in a moth or foiling A and they would crash before the start.  

This is sailboat racing - but it’s isn’t keel boat racing.

Hope they can get her repaired and get back out there - and hire Nathan or Slingsby to be tactician.

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2 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Just before Goodison makes his remark, at 2.44.41, DB starts asking a question: 'Would you take the left gate even with a tack to...'

He then gets interrupted by TH (at least that who it sounds like) saying '100 meters'

So DB was not sure about the approach, but did not get any response and by then it was too late to do anything else...

Yes, we wonder who is the boss on the boat and if orders are clear or not. A key point in strong conditions is limited but very clear communication of what will be done during the next seconds, not comments.

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Doubt it’ll happen. TH is the figurehead of the syndicate that is most associated with rubbing shoulders with American inherited wealth capitalists who pretend they earned every penny. Those folks don’t humble themselves to step off the boat - it’ll undermine the narrative they’re superior ppl. 

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32 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Just in.

 

AMERICAN MAGIC'S AC75 SURVIVES CRASH, DAMAGE AND NEAR-SINKING ON THE HAURAKI GULF

The U.S. Challenger for the America's Cup receives assistance from competitors, race management officials, and local rescue services in the fight to save PATRIOT, the team's racing yacht.

Auckland, New Zealand - After racing into a squall, crashing, capsizing, incurring significant damage and coming close to sinking, American Magic’s AC75 racing yacht, PATRIOT, made it back to shore at 10:45 PM NZDT after a herculean effort to save the boat. 

“First and foremost, we are incredibly grateful and thankful that everybody is safe,” said Terry Hutchinson, Skipper and Executive Director of American Magic, the U.S. Challenger for the America’s Cup. “The team did an incredible job getting PATRIOT back to the dock.”

The arrival of the American AC75 back to the team base in Wynyard Quarter was due not only to the perseverance of the team, which never gave up the fight over many hours, but that of the greater Auckland and America’s Cup communities. The three other Cup teams, the AC36 event management team,  and multiple branches of Auckland’s rescue services came to the aid of American Magic in a moment of urgent need.

“The response from the local community here was incredible, and you can't give enough thanks to the police, fire and local authorities for their quick response,” said Hutchinson shortly after stepping ashore, in darkness, alongside his exhausted but relieved teammates.  

“The response from the other teams was amazing, too. It was certainly heartwarming to see all the support, and obviously we needed it because this was a crisis situation. Huge thanks to Emirates Team New Zealand, to INEOS Team UK, and to Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli for coming out and helping us.”

On the final leg of a race she was leading, a significant puff of wind sent the American AC75 hurtling into the air, followed by a hard re-entry into the water. The shock of the landing tore a hole into the port side of the yacht, which was not immediately apparent to the sailors onboard. PATRIOT capsized sideways into the water, port side down, which temporarily hid the extent of the damage. 

After following well-practiced capsize procedures, and determining that all were safe, American Magic righted the yacht to discover that she was sitting low in the water. It was apparent that this was a much different scenario than the team’s previous AC75 capsize, which occurred with the team’s now-retired first AC75, DEFIANT.


“We knew something was wrong straight away,” said Hutchinson. “When we tipped DEFIANT over, the boat was pretty buoyant and sat pretty high on her side. When we righted DEFIANT, and as we saw with Team New Zealand a few days ago when they righted their boat, the recovery was instantaneous. As soon as you get the breeze underneath the boat, underneath the mainsail, the boat pops back up.”

“Today on PATRIOT, when I was getting out of my cockpit, we were lower in the water. The ‘pop-up’ wasn't happening. So that was kind of the first indication. [Boat Captain] Tyson [Lamond] came through the comms saying ‘I think there's a hole in the boat.’ We spent the next couple of hours securing the platform.”

In terms of how the team will move forward, Hutchinson said the process of damage analysis, repair planning and repair execution would begin tonight and continue nonstop in an effort to get PATRIOT back in action.

“We have to see what the damage is on the inside of the boat, apart from the hole. Fortunately we're here at our base now, they're getting the rig out, and we'll assess the damage and go forward.”

Hutchinson said that this type of incident would certainly be a major challenge to overcome, especially with only 12 days remaining until the Prada Cup semifinals. He also said that the resilience of his team is never in doubt.  

“Time and time again, American Magic has always responded to the adverse situations that we've been faced with, be it COVID-19 or other things we've come across in the last three years,” said Hutchinson. “This one is probably a bit of a larger challenge, but as always, how you get up is more important than how you get knocked down. I'm confident in us. I'm confident in our people.”

 
A race that will be long-remembered for the dramatic events that followed it got off to a challenging start for American Magic. The team was caught out of position in the pre-start and entered the starting box both late and in a vulnerable position. Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli tried to take advantage of the mistake and force a foul, but the umpires waved it off. After this close call, the remainder of the pre-start was an even affair. Both boats charged across the line in sync, with American Magic in the windward position.  
 
Luna Rossa earned the first cross, but the race soon turned in favor of American Magic. Both boats sailed the first beat in 15 to 20 knots of breeze, and the day was a showcase of the immense upwind performance of the AC75 class. The two Challengers charged up the course at nearly 40 knots of boatspeed. Helmsman Dean Barker and Skipper/Tactician Terry Hutchinson took advantage of a favorable lefthand shift in the breeze, and what appeared to be a slight speed advantage, to put American Magic in position to lead Luna Rossa into the top mark. After another unsuccessful penalty request from Luna Rossa, Dean Barker steered PATRIOT through the windward gate 6 seconds ahead of the Italians.  
 
A solid run saw the lead double to 13 seconds. Both boats rounded the lefthand gate in a very fresh breeze. Halfway up the second beat, Luna Rossa incurred a penalty for a boundary violation and dropped a little further behind. The lead doubled to nearly 30 seconds at the top mark and with a big shift to the left, American Magic was able to lay the leeward gate on starboard jibe after just a short stretch on port jibe around the top mark. 

“That squall was moving down the left side of the racetrack, and so we came in around the bottom mark, we trimmed up and sailed 20 seconds to the boundary and tacked,” said Hutchinson. “We tacked in like nine knots of breeze, after having much more than that for most of the race. The breeze was just evaporating all over the place. And so, you know, as we've learned over the last couple of days, you have to be in the pressure or the breeze can evaporate on you.”
 
The final upwind leg was similarly one-sided and American Magic took advantage of the bias to increase its advantage heading into the final mark. This is when disaster struck for the Americans in the form of another left shift and a significant increase in the windspeed due to an oncoming squall. PATRIOT went for the left gate mark, rounded, and then reared up, crashed down and capsized to port. 

“Dean made the correct decision to tack around the left gate, keep us in the pressure and just try to deliver us down to the finish. We got hit by a reasonably big gust. When you're racing the boat, you're racing the boat.”

As the AC75’s are not self-righting, the race against Luna Rossa was over. A second race began almost immediately to save a damaged PATRIOT from sinking. The unfortunate series of events ripped away a much-needed first Prada Cup victory from the U.S. team. Luna Rossa was awarded their second point of the regatta. 

“Obviously it's not exactly the day that we wanted,” said Hutchinson. “We had a good race going and the boat was going really well.”

Interesting call by Casper after the fact

26 minutes ago, hasmat said:

Without a comms set that was working evidently. 

He was wearing 2 sets, the broadcast one was not working, onboard comms seemed to function normally, so he was in the loop.

 

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19 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Doubt it’ll happen. TH is the figurehead of the syndicate that is most associated with rubbing shoulders with American inherited wealth capitalists who pretend they earned every penny. Those folks don’t humble themselves to step off the boat - it’ll undermine the narrative they’re superior ppl. 

TH also was instrumental in bringing bring Hap Fauth (TSI/Bella Mente) to the party. 

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I do have to say that as an American, I’m gutted by this, but good on the Kiwis for being a class act. In the recovery video you can see their whole sailing team out there helping keep Patriot afloat. 
 

Edit:  I should thank Ineos and Prada as well. 

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Does anyone know who was doing what during the bear away? 
 

- Dean on leeward side after tack? Steering? 
- Who takes wheel for a moment after tacks? Goody? 
- whose job is it to let off leeward runner? The old helm or someone on mainsheet? 

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Scotty: “Never tell the captain how long it really takes to run a diagnostic or fix the dilithium crystal converter if you value your reputation as a miracle worker. Always multiply repair efforts by a factor of four!!”

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2 hours ago, us7070 said:

 

If you look at the decision making:

-they were on port at the top of the beat

-the wind was hard left.., so the primary concern was to be on starboard as early as possible on the run, after rounding the mark

-two choices; left mark, tack, bear away.., or , right mark, bear away, gybe - both get you on starboard

-with the wind hard left, the right mark is actually the favored mark, from a geometry perspective - it's further down wind

- for most of the beat the pressure had been stronger on the left, so they were thinking left mark to stay in the pressure overrides any small geometric advantage to the right mark.

- but - by the time they got up close, when the decision had to be made, there was _plenty_ of wind across the course, and had they gone to the right mark, they would have had plenty of power to gybe and get back to the left.

- with TH head down, and DB not looking around, i don't think they even realized how well the breeze had filled across the course and that right mark had become an acceptable choice.

This is spot on. Before the tack is was yelling at the TV, why on earth take the left mark? Take the right gate, just about lay the finish line and have lots of scope to heat up for speed as needed to dodge the wind holes. Left mark forces you into the boundary and a gybe out to the right anyhow at about 90 degrees across the course making 0 VMG. Although easy to say from the sofa but clearly in retrospect it was the wrong call.

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42 minutes ago, Dave S said:

They were carrying some lead beforehand, but it departed through the bottom of the hull...

I actually think it was one of the big magnets that controls camber that caused the hole. 

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31 minutes ago, Varan said:

Are there links to the audio feeds? I would like to hear what the Italians had to say while this was unfolding. 

There is the starboard entry video on AC YouTube. They did not say much when they saw AM capsize. They sound busy trying not to make mistakes themselves. After finishing FB tells JS that he is surprised AM picked the left mark and the difficult manoeuvre.

 

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2 hours ago, us7070 said:

- with TH head down, and DB not looking around, i don't think they even realized how well the breeze had filled across the course and that right mark had become an acceptable choice.

I am sure they realized which makes it even more amazing that they made this call. From the stern camera you can listen the boat accelerate, you even feel the stress in the voices.

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11 minutes ago, R15 said:

This is spot on. Before the tack is was yelling at the TV, why on earth take the left mark? Take the right gate, just about lay the finish line and have lots of scope to heat up for speed as needed to dodge the wind holes. Left mark forces you into the boundary and a gybe out to the right anyhow at about 90 degrees across the course making 0 VMG. Although easy to say from the sofa but clearly in retrospect it was the wrong call.

LR made the same call.

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1 hour ago, Dave S said:

I don't see that they'd necessarily need to pull the hydraulics out

probably need to pull the hydros out in order to properly assess (and repair) the structures.

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2 hours ago, bigorangething said:

I’ll hang it on Dean: he had a comfortable lead; he ignored the advice of his main trimmer; he took the high risk choice over the low risk.  Then bad luck pounced - a lefty, a runner left on, and pressure.

if Dean had gone for the low risk path I think it’s likely they would have finished the race in one piece.

 

 

The tack was the right choice tactically for sure, no one can possibly argue otherwise. 

This was a boat handling issue. 

If the gybe was so much safer, why did LR tack as well?

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Does the NYYC have a Auckland curse?

First time down in 1999 NYYC Young america folds in half. 

2003 Stars & stripes backed by NYYC sinks in the USA. 

They return and we'll yesterday happened... 

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1 hour ago, C. Spackler said:

Plenty of blame to go around in this chain of events. 

  • Someone F'ed up the runners. Could be crew, could be equipment. 
  • Barker chose a risky move over a "safe" move when he had a cushy lead
  • Terry was grinding instead of watching for wind lines
  • Random engineer insufficiently accounted for impact loads upon the battery units at 40 kts. 
  • 100 other possible problems with flight control hardware, software, carbonware, hydraulicware, and computerware. 

Bottom line is that a slower conservative rounding would have gotten the job done.  

Not such a "cushy" lead in an AC75 and in those conditions... 

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electronics on a wet boat...most of the AC foiling heats and other foiling heats with coms, that i have watched had at least one boat having problems with an electrical component...

sometimes it's intermittent, sometimes it ends the heat for them, sometimes they loose because of it, but still finish.

it seems to be part of the game many times.

Ineos didn't seem to know where the boundaries were in the previous heat for example.

p,s, great job getting that boat back to port with that size of hole in it.

Edited by david r
mistake
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I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

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1 minute ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

A second AC75 dead in the water in the vicinity would have been more of a hindrance than help, they wouldn't be able to approach someone in the water with any kind of control, besides they have huge knives hanging several meters out of each side...

The guys on board know that, and know that support boats are never far away, so they concentrate on their own boat and continue to race

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3 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

They would have seen support boats heading to the site immediately. Them trying to help would have made the situation more dangerous, the best thing they could do was get out of the way quickly and safely.

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1 minute ago, alphafb552 said:

A second AC75 dead in the water in the vicinity would have been more of a hindrance than help, they wouldn't be able to approach someone in the water with any kind of control, besides they have huge knives hanging several meters out of each side...

The guys on board know that, and know that support boats are never far away, so they concentrate on their own boat and continue to race

all true, but also surely a Rule 1.1 violation ;-)

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Pretty sure LR got advise as the approached the rounding.  Notice that they continued upwind beyond the mark and into the exclusion zone without penalty - before ultimately heading downwind

7 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

 

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2 minutes ago, cbulger said:

Pretty sure LR got advise as the approached the rounding.  Notice that they continued upwind beyond the mark and into the exclusion zone without penalty - before ultimately heading downwind

 

I thought that was just them handling the gust and knowing there was no rush ..... and big risk!

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

I wondered if they should give Goody the helm or tactician role. 3 time moth world champion. Olympic Gold medal. 

I note that Goody seems to have advisory input language.  They need a tactician who makes the calls and can decide to abort the tack and go for a bear away in a nano second

Terry might be better running the team from off the boat.

Just followed team Brexit round the course with the after guard and no race commentary.  Giles runs the race but Ben sometimes questions a decision and sometimes he over rides Giles but it is rare. Giles feeds the plan into Ben and 9 times out of 10 Ben says copy. Either way they arrive at a decision very quickly. So Giles gives a plan and Ben agrees all in about 5 seconds. If Ben disagrees it all happens within 10 seconds.  Either way the plan is sorted within 5 to 10 seconds. They did dither a couple of times in the last race and you really noticed it when it broke down. You noticed it because of the quality of good advice and reaction is natural on the boat.

Anyway if I was bizillion heir and could chose a team around an AC challenge Giles would be my first pick. BA my second because Giles and Ben are a potent combination. I dont know enough about the Kiwis to follow their after guard.  I wonder if the KIwis will modify their crew structure because of what they have observed on Team Brexit?

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Goodison was correct of course, but my guess is he was looking at the course and the tactical situation, not boat/crew capabilities. This team could handle both maneuvers, and just happened to dick up the one they chose. They’re not the first ones. With the caveat that I know jack about sailing these AC boats, in a foiling multi a tack and bear away is tricky since it is a huge range of trim and wind, but a gybe has at least as good of a chance of sending you swimming because the track and timing need to be exact, or its over. Racing and foiling multis have sent me swimming more times that I can count, and the majority have been gibes. It seems possible they screwed the pooch maneuver-wise, and Goodison was correct about something else entirely.

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34 minutes ago, RMac said:

The tack was the right choice tactically for sure, no one can possibly argue otherwise. 

This was a boat handling issue. 

If the gybe was so much safer, why did LR tack as well?

Left mark was definitely better tactically, but AM were close to port lay so it was a high risk tack bear away. I thought LR had more space to make a similar turn and were doing it in a more conservative mode, so not 100% comparable. 

In context of the lead they had, and the lack of overtaking lanes on the final run, the right hand mark was the better choice. 

You don't risk the win for a 50m gate bias when you've got a 500m lead...

INEOS did a tack bear away mid race when  they were neck and neck with LR, albeit in less breeze. But the context of each dictates which was a good call and which wasn't

Edited by Mozzy Sails
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24 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

The last thing anyone needs is another foiling boat going thru the water hitting people and debris and now you have two broken boats and casualties and bloood in the water. 

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Looking at Mozzy Sails AM video the way AM tack is:

- tack called. Goody dicks around on windward iPad then goes to leeward.

- tack. They straighten up with Dean to leeward. Goody dicks around on new windward iPad.

- after they are steady, Dean changes sides. 
 

Then looking at Stern cam, they did all those apart from the last one. Presumably Goody’s iPad deals with runners and he had it in his hand... 

So initial comms problem with three people (at least) talking at once. Leading to hurried tack but with everyone in the right place and then maybe mechanical. 
 

So a cluster fuck, basically. 

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

The last thing anyone needs is another foiling boat going thru the water hitting people and debris and now you have two broken boats and casualties and bloood in the water. 

Yes WTF. The only thing Jimmy could do is stay the fuck out of the way or they would have had two capsized and crashing AC75s. 

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26 minutes ago, Mr Moab said:

My thinks some at NYYC may be experiencing a little PTSD and wondering why "it always happens to us".

 

From 2003. 

 

12m Young America.....to much weight on the mast | Americas cup yachts,  Classic sailing, Boat

2000 Cup...Technically 1999

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3 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

TH should not have his head down grinding there is  too much shit and puffs that are not being noted and adjusted for,  a tactician has to have his head out of the boat.

4 hours ago, IPLore said:

Terry might be better running the team from off the boat.

1000+, He looks pretty old to be grinding and as a tactician his head should be out of the boat. When I started getting real coaching at the Paralympic level, that was #1. Keep you eyes open.

Someone's head should roll.

 

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4 hours ago, hasmat said:

That’s an illustration of a panic decision making process from Deano. He has no clarity of the situational awareness in these types of events. Do we now know what TH’s call was?(no comms)

Well said. Barker has a major flaw that has been exposed are every AC.

He is not focussed, smart, or tough enough 

His sheltered/ spoilt upbringing has never allowed him to have great personal power.

 

He has decisional and positional power given to him but " in the school if hard Knock's" he has no strength of character or ability to take on the hard stuff ( personal power).

 

When he talks... It's just lame!

 

Compared to Ben, and Jimmy he is still not confident or tough .

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

Goodison was correct of course, but my guess is he was looking at the course and the tactical situation, not boat/crew capabilities. This team could handle both maneuvers, and just happened to dick up the one they chose. They’re not the first ones. With the caveat that I know jack about sailing these AC boats, in a foiling multi a tack and bear away is tricky since it is a huge range of trim and wind, but a gybe has at least as good of a chance of sending you swimming because the track and timing need to be exact, or its over. Racing and foiling multis have sent me swimming more times that I can count, and the majority have been gibes. It seems possible they screwed the pooch maneuver-wise, and Goodison was correct about something else entirely.

Twice he said "hard" referring to the coming planned manoeuvre, not the tactical situation. He would have preferred the simple bearaway. TH should "excuse" himself for a more agile mind and body.