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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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2 hours ago, bigorangething said:

I’ll hang it on Dean: he had a comfortable lead; he ignored the advice of his main trimmer; he took the high risk choice over the low risk.  Then bad luck pounced - a lefty, a runner left on, and pressure.

if Dean had gone for the low risk path I think it’s likely they would have finished the race in one piece.

 

 

The tack was the right choice tactically for sure, no one can possibly argue otherwise. 

This was a boat handling issue. 

If the gybe was so much safer, why did LR tack as well?

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Does the NYYC have a Auckland curse?

First time down in 1999 NYYC Young america folds in half. 

2003 Stars & stripes backed by NYYC sinks in the USA. 

They return and we'll yesterday happened... 

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1 hour ago, C. Spackler said:

Plenty of blame to go around in this chain of events. 

  • Someone F'ed up the runners. Could be crew, could be equipment. 
  • Barker chose a risky move over a "safe" move when he had a cushy lead
  • Terry was grinding instead of watching for wind lines
  • Random engineer insufficiently accounted for impact loads upon the battery units at 40 kts. 
  • 100 other possible problems with flight control hardware, software, carbonware, hydraulicware, and computerware. 

Bottom line is that a slower conservative rounding would have gotten the job done.  

Not such a "cushy" lead in an AC75 and in those conditions... 

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electronics on a wet boat...most of the AC foiling heats and other foiling heats with coms, that i have watched had at least one boat having problems with an electrical component...

sometimes it's intermittent, sometimes it ends the heat for them, sometimes they loose because of it, but still finish.

it seems to be part of the game many times.

Ineos didn't seem to know where the boundaries were in the previous heat for example.

p,s, great job getting that boat back to port with that size of hole in it.

Edited by david r
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I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

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1 minute ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

A second AC75 dead in the water in the vicinity would have been more of a hindrance than help, they wouldn't be able to approach someone in the water with any kind of control, besides they have huge knives hanging several meters out of each side...

The guys on board know that, and know that support boats are never far away, so they concentrate on their own boat and continue to race

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3 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

They would have seen support boats heading to the site immediately. Them trying to help would have made the situation more dangerous, the best thing they could do was get out of the way quickly and safely.

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1 minute ago, alphafb552 said:

A second AC75 dead in the water in the vicinity would have been more of a hindrance than help, they wouldn't be able to approach someone in the water with any kind of control, besides they have huge knives hanging several meters out of each side...

The guys on board know that, and know that support boats are never far away, so they concentrate on their own boat and continue to race

all true, but also surely a Rule 1.1 violation ;-)

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Pretty sure LR got advise as the approached the rounding.  Notice that they continued upwind beyond the mark and into the exclusion zone without penalty - before ultimately heading downwind

7 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

 

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2 minutes ago, cbulger said:

Pretty sure LR got advise as the approached the rounding.  Notice that they continued upwind beyond the mark and into the exclusion zone without penalty - before ultimately heading downwind

 

I thought that was just them handling the gust and knowing there was no rush ..... and big risk!

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

I wondered if they should give Goody the helm or tactician role. 3 time moth world champion. Olympic Gold medal. 

I note that Goody seems to have advisory input language.  They need a tactician who makes the calls and can decide to abort the tack and go for a bear away in a nano second

Terry might be better running the team from off the boat.

Just followed team Brexit round the course with the after guard and no race commentary.  Giles runs the race but Ben sometimes questions a decision and sometimes he over rides Giles but it is rare. Giles feeds the plan into Ben and 9 times out of 10 Ben says copy. Either way they arrive at a decision very quickly. So Giles gives a plan and Ben agrees all in about 5 seconds. If Ben disagrees it all happens within 10 seconds.  Either way the plan is sorted within 5 to 10 seconds. They did dither a couple of times in the last race and you really noticed it when it broke down. You noticed it because of the quality of good advice and reaction is natural on the boat.

Anyway if I was bizillion heir and could chose a team around an AC challenge Giles would be my first pick. BA my second because Giles and Ben are a potent combination. I dont know enough about the Kiwis to follow their after guard.  I wonder if the KIwis will modify their crew structure because of what they have observed on Team Brexit?

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Goodison was correct of course, but my guess is he was looking at the course and the tactical situation, not boat/crew capabilities. This team could handle both maneuvers, and just happened to dick up the one they chose. They’re not the first ones. With the caveat that I know jack about sailing these AC boats, in a foiling multi a tack and bear away is tricky since it is a huge range of trim and wind, but a gybe has at least as good of a chance of sending you swimming because the track and timing need to be exact, or its over. Racing and foiling multis have sent me swimming more times that I can count, and the majority have been gibes. It seems possible they screwed the pooch maneuver-wise, and Goodison was correct about something else entirely.

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34 minutes ago, RMac said:

The tack was the right choice tactically for sure, no one can possibly argue otherwise. 

This was a boat handling issue. 

If the gybe was so much safer, why did LR tack as well?

Left mark was definitely better tactically, but AM were close to port lay so it was a high risk tack bear away. I thought LR had more space to make a similar turn and were doing it in a more conservative mode, so not 100% comparable. 

In context of the lead they had, and the lack of overtaking lanes on the final run, the right hand mark was the better choice. 

You don't risk the win for a 50m gate bias when you've got a 500m lead...

INEOS did a tack bear away mid race when  they were neck and neck with LR, albeit in less breeze. But the context of each dictates which was a good call and which wasn't

Edited by Mozzy Sails
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24 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

The last thing anyone needs is another foiling boat going thru the water hitting people and debris and now you have two broken boats and casualties and bloood in the water. 

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Looking at Mozzy Sails AM video the way AM tack is:

- tack called. Goody dicks around on windward iPad then goes to leeward.

- tack. They straighten up with Dean to leeward. Goody dicks around on new windward iPad.

- after they are steady, Dean changes sides. 
 

Then looking at Stern cam, they did all those apart from the last one. Presumably Goody’s iPad deals with runners and he had it in his hand... 

So initial comms problem with three people (at least) talking at once. Leading to hurried tack but with everyone in the right place and then maybe mechanical. 
 

So a cluster fuck, basically. 

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

The last thing anyone needs is another foiling boat going thru the water hitting people and debris and now you have two broken boats and casualties and bloood in the water. 

Yes WTF. The only thing Jimmy could do is stay the fuck out of the way or they would have had two capsized and crashing AC75s. 

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3 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

TH should not have his head down grinding there is  too much shit and puffs that are not being noted and adjusted for,  a tactician has to have his head out of the boat.

4 hours ago, IPLore said:

Terry might be better running the team from off the boat.

1000+, He looks pretty old to be grinding and as a tactician his head should be out of the boat. When I started getting real coaching at the Paralympic level, that was #1. Keep you eyes open.

Someone's head should roll.

 

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4 hours ago, hasmat said:

That’s an illustration of a panic decision making process from Deano. He has no clarity of the situational awareness in these types of events. Do we now know what TH’s call was?(no comms)

Well said. Barker has a major flaw that has been exposed are every AC.

He is not focussed, smart, or tough enough 

His sheltered/ spoilt upbringing has never allowed him to have great personal power.

 

He has decisional and positional power given to him but " in the school if hard Knock's" he has no strength of character or ability to take on the hard stuff ( personal power).

 

When he talks... It's just lame!

 

Compared to Ben, and Jimmy he is still not confident or tough .

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

Goodison was correct of course, but my guess is he was looking at the course and the tactical situation, not boat/crew capabilities. This team could handle both maneuvers, and just happened to dick up the one they chose. They’re not the first ones. With the caveat that I know jack about sailing these AC boats, in a foiling multi a tack and bear away is tricky since it is a huge range of trim and wind, but a gybe has at least as good of a chance of sending you swimming because the track and timing need to be exact, or its over. Racing and foiling multis have sent me swimming more times that I can count, and the majority have been gibes. It seems possible they screwed the pooch maneuver-wise, and Goodison was correct about something else entirely.

Twice he said "hard" referring to the coming planned manoeuvre, not the tactical situation. He would have preferred the simple bearaway. TH should "excuse" himself for a more agile mind and body. 

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1 minute ago, Baconator said:

His sheltered/ spoilt upbringing has never allowed him to have great personal power.

lol good luck finding anyone in America organized sailing at any level who didn’t have a sheltered upbringing. 

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When the boat was on its side there was no hole in the bottom that I saw , maybe I'm wrong.  

But it seems to me the hole happened when they righted it?  

In the TV footage they opened the hatch and went inside .

Hutchinson said it wasn't until they righted it that they realised a problem.

Well if someone had been inside surely they would have noticed a shit load of water when on its side, and a hole! 

there was plenty of chase boats around them with lots of people on, someone would have seen a hole.

Were the batteries loose and when they righted it they fell through the floor? if that's the case the hull had to be pretty week at that stage and to make a perfect square is very unusual.

So if the hull is that damaged surely game over for that boat?

 

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Punching holes in a carbon hull. 

If as suggested it was a loose, say 35kg battery flying across the boat sailing at 25kts (sack the engineer who installed and the person who signed off the work?), then this would be the equivalent of a local load around 0.5msq hitting the hull of 10,000kg (10 tonnes or 107kn) when the boat stopped.

Not surprising that it tore nice neat hole. 

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33 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

Goodison was correct of course, but my guess is he was looking at the course and the tactical situation, not boat/crew capabilities.

I dont think so because Goody's words were that "I think a bear away gybe is smarter move here"..........This means that he also agreed that the best tactical route was to get to the right downwind on starboard.  It was simply the choice to tack or gybe. Tack would be the traditional choice around the favored mark but Goody saw the pressure and realized....

In his next words he gives his reason  "It is going to be a hard maneuver, a really hard maneuver to tack and bear away".......in other words, he saw the squall and thought it was too risky to execute .  He was unambiguous with his call.  First he said its going to be hard and then he laid it on more, its going to be "really hard"  In the decision window Goody realized the boat handling was too high a hurdle....nano second foiling moth analysis  ......some moves in some conditions cannot be executed.

Dean (probably acting on TH's first call) sticks with decision to tack . Dean says "Standing by Standing by Keep going keep going. Go Goody" .  Those instructions are a little ambiguous.  Did he mean "standing by"  to tack and does "keep going" mean stick with the plan to tack.  Go Goody, meant for Goody to change side. Was goody late with the set up for the tack and bear away because he was setting up for bear away?   Who was on the runner? Was that Goody?

 

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2 minutes ago, Neverwas said:

When the boat was on its side there was no hole in the bottom that I saw , maybe I'm wrong.  

But it seems to me the hole happened when they righted it?  

In the TV footage they opened the hatch and went inside .

Hutchinson said it wasn't until they righted it that they realised a problem.

Well if someone had been inside surely they would have noticed a shit load of water when on its side, and a hole! 

there was plenty of chase boats around them with lots of people on, someone would have seen a hole.

Were the batteries loose and when they righted it they fell through the floor? if that's the case the hull had to be pretty week at that stage and to make a perfect square is very unusual.

So if the hull is that damaged surely game over for that boat?

 

1st shot: no hole

2nd: hole

 

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200453.png

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200609.png

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4 hours ago, IPLore said:

Goodison was crystal clear that he did not want to tack and bear away.    He is the key  member of the team who added moth foiling experience to the older TP52 guys. Why did the decision making process not absorb his call.  Not a peep out of TH at that moment so Im guessing the call is down to Dean.

The riskier move when in the lead? Who had their head out of the boat seeing the massive puff coming down the course?

Question  Was the runner incorrect for a normal bear away or was it in the right position ? Did somebody screw up, or was it set for downwind but needed to be eased more once the maneuver was in trouble?

If they had born away they would have picked up the gust a touch later and been more settled.

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5 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Looking at the whole rounding, it seems to me the tack was rushed, and DB decided to go straight into the bearaway before the boat was totally finished with the tack - hence the runner not being released...

Anyway, some interesting debriefs going on between DB, TH and Goodison I'm sure...

Actually, if you listen to the audio, he talks about “holding it here” as they re-gather after the tack. 
 

I suspect you can’t sail these things half heartedly. 

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2 minutes ago, Neverwas said:

Oh nice work, I stand corrected, however why didn't the guy who went down below notice??

 

I'd guess he did. They must have heard and felt whatever it was crash through the hull, seeing it full of water was just confirmation.

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3 hours ago, Piet56 said:

Hindsight is a useless tool that does nothing but confirm history...... If.... woulda / coulda / shoulda does nothing but get you an audition for a frikkin talk show.....

Gentlemen, those event's happened, if aint fixing that boat..... now lets see what the experts say if Patriot is totaled, do they have a 2nd boat in AKL that could be measured and made ready in the same time?

Regardless this will go down in the books as a real learning experience for a lot of people..... Rightly or wrongly some people will be paying with their livelihoods I guess some into early retirement.... SHIT WILL STICK FROM THIS ONE

But they had never done that maneuver in any of the other races.  You have a lead, you protected it by covering the the other boat and by not taking unnecessary risks!  

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2 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

I'd guess he did. They must have heard and felt whatever it was crash through the hull, seeing it full of water was just confirmation.

Today on PATRIOT, when I was getting out of my cockpit, we were lower in the water. The ‘pop-up’ wasn't happening. So that was kind of the first indication. [Boat Captain] Tyson [Lamond] came through the comms saying ‘I think there's a hole in the boat.’ We spent the next couple of hours securing the platform.”

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2 hours ago, pwormwood said:

Sailing normal monohulls, where Terry and Dean have most experience, it is often considered safer in extreme conditions to tack and then bear away, rather than bearing away and gybing.  So, they may have been acting instinctually.  Paul was the only one with extensive foiling success and experience.  As in this example, there isn't the time to debate, or even for the tactician to pass the information to the helmsman (Particularly if you leave it to the last minute, as they seemed to have).  Paul, and his foiling instincts, should be driving . 

 

 

Dean has experience from the very beginning of foiling in the AC.

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Until the top mark, AM had been looking pretty good for the fist time in a Prada cup race.  Up until the problem, it was also a race where they seemed ok without a lot of any real tactician role.  AM did as well or better than LR in both straight line boat speed and in getting back up to speed after each maneuver.  With the possible exception of light air performance, the performance of the boat was plenty good enough. 

If AM had consistently made the best tactical choices, they were in a position where they could probably loose a few in the light and still come out on top overall.   

Yesterday, LR was no slower than Ineos, but LR mad no attempt to cover and allowed Ineos to grab a winning wind shift.  I would say that the first day of the Prada Cup and the third day of the Prada cup have shown that the Ineos choice for one less grinder and a dedicated tactician is paying off right now.

AM needs to find a reliable source of decision making help for Dean.  Once choice woudl be pretty easy.  If needed (and when he is on the correct side of the boat) Dean needs to be able to ask Terry for help, followed by Terry stopping his grinding, standing up, looking around and providing needed advice.  Someone on the other side of the boat needs to be available for the same function when appropriate.       

The choice at the top mark may have been "OK but not optimum".  The real cause of the disaster was probably more poor execution with a dash of bad luck in "getting caught" with a just wrong wind gust / shift. 

However, the need for change in better tactical decision making is very very obvious.  Hopefully they will get the boat repaired and have some opportunity to try to salvage their campaign.    

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

You can see LR continue way beyond the top gate and almost go out of bounds at the top.  Then someone on the boat reminded them that they are still in a race and have to continue sailing their boat.

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14 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

This idiot has already been pilloried in the national press...


Actually not card carrying Americans David Richwhite of Fay Richwhite notoriety running a nationality theme day  re -lack of AC tourists due to the Communist virus day before it was British with one idiot wearing a Prince Edward mask.

Not exactly classy but what would you expect from one of NZ greatest corporate Fagins.

Top real estate man Ollie Wall apologises for dressing in Capitol rioter costume 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12414533

7453782D-F882-4F3F-8DBB-3576822BC9F9.thumb.jpeg.f24576936160e605fc2dc83aabaea031.jpeg

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On running backstays:

Since these boats never really let the main out, it might be common sail an entire race without touching the backstays. Obviously not smart in this much wind.  But American Magic has done lots of heavy air practice and would/ should know it.

Decision making:

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

On the recovery: The guy has gone down the hole and probably knows the hole is. My instinct  would have been to lay her over the other way to try to get that hole above the water, or closer to the surface.

SHC

 

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2 minutes ago, serialsailor said:

Well we know who funds this challenge.. not a suprise that supporters embrace the same fascist ideology.

How can you tell from a guy in fancy dress what his ideology is?  I think Stalin chose his victims on whims as well. 

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8 hours ago, mako23 said:

What a job list

pull out all the internals ( Hydraulics and electronics)

fix the hole or holes

fix the internal systems

test the internals

reinstall internals 

test boat

 

You forgot one item on the list: Purchase brown underwear/briefs for all crew/shore ops/chase boat personnel to be worn for the reminder of the campaign, if they are to sail again. That was a terrifying thing to watch, and I couldn't imagine being on that boat when it happened.

Sack DB. Sack him now. He's fucking dangerously incompetent, and has been for a long time. Pulling shit like that unnecessary left turn gets people killed. 

And here I thought I was in a dangerous profession all these years.....

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8 minutes ago, RMac said:

Sorry, no one is going to talk me into going to the further mark is better. And either way you've got the bear away to get past. Better would be to tack, stabilize, slow bear away

Was there space to tack, stabilise, accelerate back up to speed and then bear away before the boundary. If you don't get back up to full speed then your AWA is much further aft and that would cause what we have seen and/or make it worse. I haven't checked whether they did get up to full speed before bearing away

But that is with the expertise of hindsight

 

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55 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

1st shot: no hole

2nd: hole

 

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200453.png

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200609.png

First shot is boat coming out of the water.

Second shot is boat having crashed back down. 

Designing for a huge boat to leap out of the water at 40 knots and crash back down was probably more analytical swag than anything else.  Not a lot of historical sensor recordings from a previous / test boat to help them.  The fact that it came down on its side was likely a big factor.  My guess is that the designers did not get the load cases right.  The battery holder may have been adequately strong for up - down and fore - aft loads, but apparently failed due to side loading.  Either that, or there was a build (bad joint, bad assembly) or maintenance problem (restraint not properly re-installed).    

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Having listened to an audio of a TP52 race from Quantum w/ Terry as tactician he talks all the time and makes quick decisions.  He is integral in how the boat is sailed.  Him grinding cripples his strongest attributes in overall race course management.  If he is on the boat he should be free like Giles to actually do the tactician role is so good at.  As for Deano, you can't lay the blame on him, it is team sport.  Not a DeVos fan but hope they can get a boat back on the water to compete.

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From THs interview it sounds like there were some big holes building(we tacked in 9 knots).  50 seconds isn't that big a lead if you hit a big hole and go into displacement mode.  Right move, poor execution.  Sometimes in sailing just executing well is more important than going the right way.  We've all come into a leeward gate and decided to change buoys at the last minute and screwed up the take-down.  If Goodie isn't calling tactics then he should have just kept his mouth shut and helped execute.

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15 minutes ago, Priscilla said:


Actually not card carrying Americans David Richwhite of Fay Richwhite notoriety running a nationality theme day  re -lack of AC tourists due to the Communist virus day before it was British with one idiot wearing a Prince Edward mask.

Not exactly classy but what would you expect from one of NZ greatest corporate Fagans.

Top real estate man Ollie Wall apologises for dressing in Capitol rioter costume 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12414533

7453782D-F882-4F3F-8DBB-3576822BC9F9.thumb.jpeg.f24576936160e605fc2dc83aabaea031.jpeg

He is a fckg idiot if he did not realize the significance of the outfit.  That is as unpatriotic as a person can be.  As a side note, the real "tough guy" terrorist that wore that outfit, lives with his parents and says he can only eat organic food in prison or he will get sick..... his mommy confirmed that he needs only organic food...

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11 minutes ago, dullers said:

How can you tell from a guy in fancy dress what his ideology is?  I think Stalin chose his victims on whims as well.  

I guess you havnt been paying attention to the news, this guy is cosplaying as one of the capitol coup attempt people. The tattoos are neo pagan shit used by some neo nazi groups.

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14 minutes ago, RMac said:

Sorry, no one is going to talk me into going to the further mark is better. And either way you've got the bear away to get past. Better would be to tack, stabilize, slow bear away

No, not a slow bear away with these boats. Way too much mainsail at the Top. Classic sheathing out is impossible. I am sure Dean knew that he had to bear away as quick as possible to get rid of the damn aerodynamic on the big square head main. Am still trying to figure out what exactly makes the boat rise so high. Couldn’t be the Airbus sticker.

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12 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

 

Decision making:

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

 

SHC

 

Exactly and if Goody didn’t like the idea of the tack/bearaway he would have been better off giving useful information such as “going right is much less risky “ assuming he thought that. Stating what he did is unhelpful to someone who is loaded up controlling the boat. It just increases the mental workload as they have to reconsider all the things that lead to their original decision.

 

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The boat landed flat on the port foil. The hole is obviously an impact blow, nice and clean, as opposed to a weight (battery) shifting and the skin could not bear the load. My guess is that upon impact and submersion of the port foil one of the rams or arms for that foil failed and pierced the skin.

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3 minutes ago, Manfred said:

I am sure Dean knew that he had to bear away as quick as possible to get rid of the damn aerodynamic on the big square head main. 

Yeah.  Maybe not directly relevant, but my understanding is that's true of fast cats.... you have to make the turn aggressively to make sure you get through "the death zone" before the bow goes "into the hole".

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There is no doubt that if Goody was driving, in that brief nanosecond decision window, Goody would have overridden the plan to tack around the left gate and would have done the controlled bear away .  

 

 

Doubtless the commentators would have said something like

"American Magic have borne away and rounded the right gate. Bit of a messy rounding, they went wide. "

"Im surprised at that because left gate clearly favored"

"American Magic gave up a couple of boat lengths there rounding the wrong gate. Looks like they have gybed to get over to the right now. Kenny what do you think?"

Kenny  " They still have a good lead. For a moment I thought they would tack and take the other gate  but it might have been an abundance of caution, there was a lot of breeze on "

And we would never have known how Goody saved the day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Yeah.  Maybe not directly relevant, but my understanding is that's true of fast cats.... you have to make the turn aggressively to make sure you get through "the death zone" before the bow goes "into the hole".

Correct, when you are in medium you make a nice curve to keep the pressure and speed, in strong wind you ease the main quickly,, bear away agressively and pray you don't pitchpole.

When watching the video it seems that Dean is going too slowly and cautiously, but only somebody who have driven them could really tell.

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15 minutes ago, Golfinaspen said:

The boat landed flat on the port foil. The hole is obviously an impact blow, nice and clean, as opposed to a weight (battery) shifting and the skin could not bear the load. My guess is that upon impact and submersion of the port foil one of the rams or arms for that foil failed and pierced the skin.

It might be an Idea to have a look at the two photo's above on this thread, one as she goes up and one as she comes down before she hits the water !

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49 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

Decision Making

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

 

SHC

 

The process and protocol of decision making is key.

Yes the plan should be made well in advance but it is key that someone has the "abort" button when something changes because changes happen faster at 35 knots.  Goody made an unambiguous analysis....but the word "option" suggests it was not his call to make and TH had head in boat grinding.

I just have a gut feeling that the conversation might have gone one of these ways on Ineos.

Giles: Abort tack, huge squall, bear away and gybe is the safer option."

Ben : "Copy that, set up for bear away"

 

or

Giles; Abort tack, huge squall, bear away and gybe is the safer option"

Ben : Committed to the tack. Full focus guys. This is going to be hard on the bear away"

Succinct clear communication between driver and tactician. Roles clearly defined. Full confidence in each other. 

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When looking at video replays i see two impacts that caused stress, first was after boat went airborne it fell back down on foils really hard. It doesnt look much but foil arms have a lot of leverage to flex the hull. This first impact might have already caused some cracks and when boat fell on this weakened port side with big impact this caused those cracks to give way to cause opened hull crack, since boat still had some speed water pressure could tear away that huge chunk out of hull. Missing part can be seen on replays from many angles, floating behind the boat. Also consider hull shape of Patriot is relatively flat on part where there was impact (martini glass shaped), it may have buckled inward on impact, that could explain those paralel cracks. Other teams have rounder shaped hulls, which makes them stronger against such impacts.

patriot.jpg

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1 minute ago, DryAxE said:

Missing part can be seen on replays from many angles, floating behind the boat. 

Interesting.  The floating part visible before the hole (apparently) occurred in the flat-ish port bow pane.  The piece seen being taken off the rib back at the base has a pronounced angle to it.  Wonder where it's from?

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Just now, dorydude said:

The laminates on these boats run at all sorts of angles, so an impact hole wouldn't be square(ish).

The torn uni ribbons indicate that something came OUT through the hull, as does the square shape of the hole.

Hopefully this is the case as it will be the easiest fix.

 

Something came out for sure.  

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1 minute ago, dorydude said:

The laminates on these boats run at all sorts of angles, so an impact hole wouldn't be square(ish).

The torn uni ribbons indicate that something came OUT through the hull, as does the square shape of the hole.

Hopefully this is the case as it will be the easiest fix.

 

Present theory is that the FCS battery broke lose and went through hole

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36 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

He is a fckg idiot if he did not realize the significance of the outfit.  That is as unpatriotic as a person can be.  As a side note, the real "tough guy" terrorist that wore that outfit, lives with his parents and says he can only eat organic food in prison or he will get sick..... his mommy confirmed that he needs only organic food...

"Top real estate man" is pretty good code for "fckg idiot' around these parts...

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Just now, mako23 said:

Present theory is that the FCS battery broke lose and went through hole

I think this is likely... to punch through like that, the object would have had to have momentum, so it's unlikely to be a mount just sitting against the hull, it's something that came crashing through...

NZ Herald article quotes TH as saying they hope to be back in two weeks - that sounds like they expect to be able to  patch/repair, and then re-install, re-test, re-comission etc.. 

Somewhat good news :-)

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

Nonsense. An unstable boat riddled with sharp foily bits would be nothing but a hazard. There were support boats everywhere. They came to the rescue. Prada did exactly what they should have. They stayed well clear. 

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1 minute ago, dorydude said:

That's exactly what it looks like. Hopefully the case as the structural damage will be minimal.

Damage is bit more than the hole . I’m tipping the core will destroyed and a smallish hole becomes a massive one before fixing can even begin 

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Nonsense. An unstable boat riddled with sharp foily bits would be nothing but a hazard. There were support boats everywhere. They came to the rescue. Prada did exactly what they should have. They stayed well clear. 

Support boats could be in the scene faster and have all the right gear in most cases . Prada’s first job is to make sure they are safe and clear so the support guys can do there jobs.   Which they did including every other teams boats and support crews 

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:

That's exactly what it looks like. Hopefully the case as the structural damage will be minimal.

Well, when looking at this image and also some video footage, reflections are showing crack lines, this is how I see them. Notice that half circular crack in front of arm reinforcement. Thats structural damage in my opinion.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

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Hopefully they can get Patriot back on the water soon.

I actually think Patriot is a rocket and has lost every race to key tactical errors.

This one is glaringly obvious.

Goodison knew it was going to be tough. They had just got a left shift with increased pressure coming into the top left mark, you can see the big ease on the main and a call to ease the jib, boat speed hits 44 knots. So what was a hard manouvre, tacking and then gybing to do a 180 now became turning through 200 degrees in a strong puff.

As Goodison called it, a really hard manouvre, and proved to be right. 

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7 hours ago, dullers said:

They have some of the best engineers and maint people in the business.  I dont count them out for 3 days either. They wont be working 9 to 5 it will be night and day so you could say that have 6 working days to fix this or 22 if they go the other final playoff route. 

Water ingress into the hull skin might decide whether it's repairable or not. Carbon skins + aluminium honeycomb + salt water = battery .

The entire hull shell could be compromised.

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1 minute ago, NZL3481 said:

Water ingress into the hull skin might decide whether it's repairable or not. Carbon skins + aluminium honeycomb + salt water = battery .

The entire hull shell could be compromised.

Tracking the core sheer alone is a task in itself.  One smallish  hole becomes very big real quick 

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