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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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9 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Well, if they really thought about it, Team NZ has its own purpose built Boat building facility on the shore that specialise in carbon composite race yachts. Maybe get it on a truck, send it to those guys and get the job done. Yes they’re the competition, but surely they’re also boat building professionals. After yesterday the priority should be getting that boat back on the water ASAP.

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

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I dont think they will be able to repair it till friday. What happens if they miss this deadline, could they skip 2nd weekend races but still go to semifinals with whoever is going to be a looser between Luna Rossa and Ineos? Based on points right now they would probably battle Luna Rossa. Skipping next weekend would give them about 12 days to repair boat.

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7 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Hutchinson said it was too early to know just how big a job it would be to get Patriot back on the water, but it was unlikely they would be ready to go for next weekend's racing.

Instead, Hutchinson was hopeful American Magic would be able to sail in the semifinal in two weeks.

Well, exactly what i pointed previously. Means its really bad damage and lots of work to repair.

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1 hour ago, RMac said:

slow bear away

:( 

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of which are the high risk maneuvers in these boats and why.

1) tack bear away

2) bear away

3) gybe head up

4) head up tack

6) head up

5) gybe

6) tack

 

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5 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

Are these guys still in Warkworth.

B34E2F37-3D3C-4711-9FAC-F1AEBFF34DF6.thumb.jpeg.491c921cb805efbed695748ced92ef03.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

Source: your ass

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32 minutes ago, DryAxE said:

Well, when looking at this image and also some video footage, reflections are showing crack lines, this is how I see them. Notice that half circular crack in front of arm reinforcement. Thats structural damage in my opinion.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

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6 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

Well, ETNZ stated it took them 8000hrs to build the hull. So if you have 50 man and 12 days, each man working 16hrs per day its 9600hrs. But this is theoretical, the first issue would be they dont have molds on site, or do they? But then again, many things can be salvaged from this boat, it would have to be only partialy rebuilt. This will be organisational and logistical race with time.

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2 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

It’s not about having builders , it’s time to do the whole job with cure times and the whole list of other parts not the number of builders you throw at it 

They have 11 days ...should be doable 

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

Yep the Gib and a harness were strapped around the bow presumably to seal off the hole.  I imagine a carbon gib with battons wouldn't do the polish much good.

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4 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

It’s not about having builders , it’s time to do the whole job with cure times and the whole list of other parts not the number of builders you throw at it 

Nonsense, if it takes 9 months to make a baby, 9 women can make a baby in 1 month. Same principle for boat builders.

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2 minutes ago, DryAxE said:

Well, ETNZ stated it took them 8000hrs to build the hull. So if you have 50 man and 12 days, each man working 16hrs per day its 9600hrs. But this is theoretical, the first issue would be they dont have molds on site, or do they? But then again, many things can be salvaged from this boat, it would have to be only partialy rebuilt. This will be organisational and logistical race with time.

No where near that simple. The hole can be fixed easy enough. But the complex internal structure is a different case. If they don’t have the prepreg they need ready to go, the lead time on that alone will be 8-12 weeks. They will needs lots of very specific materials. Layup and cure cycles, NDT and processes will take a huge amount of time. It isn’t about the hole.

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America's Cup: American Magic reveal how 83kph crash happened

American Magic have explained how an unexpected gust of wind saw Dean Barker lose control of their AC75 and capsize at 83kph.

The team, backed by the powerful New York Yacht Club, suffered no injuries to their 11-man crew but Patriot has a major hole in the left of its bow, after the dramatic crash turned into a five-hour salvage operation off Auckland’s North Shore on Sunday night.

The accident came in their race against Luna Rossa in the Prada Cup round-robin racing. Barker had Patriot leading into the top mark for the final time and on course for their first victory before disaster struck as he turned down wind.

The bear away is one of the trickiest moves in these high-powered foiling monohulls – effectively a double move of a tack followed by a gybe – and the slingshot effect produces an instant lift in speed. The unexpected gust of wind added to that, loading up the power on the boat and complicating handling as Patriot reared out of control.

Patriot’s speedometer showed the boat going around the mark at 34 knots (63kph) and then getting instantly boosted to 45 knots (83kph).

The boat's rudder – its steering device – lost traction as Patriot’s nose lifted and the AC75 came completely out of the water before crashing down and rolling on to its left side with the crew on that side scrambling to get clear from under the giant wing sail. 

Onboard communication systems suggested some doubts about the tactics employed and there appeared to be a problem in not easing the leeward backstay through the bear away. But skipper Terry Hutchinson backed the move made by Barker as American Magic tried to solidify the healthy lead against the hard-charging Italians in a race where winds were approaching the upper limit set at 21 knots.

“Dean made the correct decision to tack around the left gate, keep us in the pressure and just try to deliver us down to the finish,” Hutchinson said.

“We got hit by a reasonably big gust. When you're racing the boat, you're racing the boat.

“Obviously it's not exactly the day that we wanted. We had a good race going and the boat was going really well.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123975375/americas-cup-american-magic-reveal-how-83kph-crash-happened

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4 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

No where near that simple. The hole can be fixed easy enough. But the complex internal structure is a different case. If they don’t have the prepreg they need ready to go, the lead time on that alone will be 8-12 weeks. They will needs lots of very specific materials. Layup and cure cycles, NDT and processes will take a huge amount of time. It isn’t about the hole.

There's plenty of prepreg in Auckland between Core, Southern, Hall, YDL, and the other teams. just a matter of asking really nicely if they will delay their orders and reallocate stock.

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If TH's on-board comms were down, as Kenny Read mentioned several times, that could explain the disjointed, slightly panicky discussion that took place.

It might also explain why AM were late into the starting box for that race.

Both TH and DB are copping a lot of blame, but if TH couldn't talk to DB they had a serious handicap.

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16 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

Check again this image, you can clearly see half rounded line that is really evenly distanced from arm and suggests this is reinforcement of arm into the hull. Even hole in bottom part isnt square in that corner since this circular crack intersects it. I think this is the biggest structural problem they will have to face. Hole is the least problem, but hull cracked in places where it is supposed to be strongest is a problem.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VI.jpg

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

On running backstays:

Since these boats never really let the main out, it might be common sail an entire race without touching the backstays. Obviously not smart in this much wind.  But American Magic has done lots of heavy air practice and would/ should know it.

Decision making:

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

On the recovery: The guy has gone down the hole and probably knows the hole is. My instinct  would have been to lay her over the other way to try to get that hole above the water, or closer to the surface.

SHC

 

 Key things: The plan was made in lower wind than it was executed, as per the below.

Soon after AM comes onto Port (for the approach to the final mark) and Dean takes the wheel, ~2:44:20.....the key thing is that the wind strength for all of the following is good but not full on i.e. no raised voices, straight forward sailing (for these guys!). Goodison reconfirms what they are all agreeing that they want the left downwind.......

2:44:22 Goodison: Staying high here for pressure"

2:44:25 Terry: "xxxx (unclear) angle"

2:44:27 Deam: "copy that"......whatever Terry said, Dean understood

2:44:29 Goodison "all about just staying to the left here for this pressure".........me: I am not certain, but I understand Goodison to be saying, we want to be going downwind on this lefthand side leaving the top mark, i.e. we want to tack and take the left mark.

2:44:31 Terry "hundred metres better to the right",

Dean "Copy"

2:44:32 Terry "keen to get back on this side of the course though."

Dean "Copy"

Me: So from all of the above, everyone is happy that the best decision is tack and come back on the left hand side of the course. All of this is said in be benign windstrength.  

2:44:44 Dean "would you take the left gate even with tack maneuver?

2:44:45 Terry "100metres" i.e. (my take) the difference in the date isn't worth as much as the pressure, so we need to perform the tack

2:44:50 the gust hits and dean comments on the pressure

2:44:56 wind strength increases again and goodison calls for an ease as the jib isn''t being trimmed

2:45:00 Given the increased wind strength, Goodison starts questioning the tack and bear away maneuver. Boat is going upwind at 43knts.

2:45:07 Goody: "I think there is a smarter move to bear away and gybe, its going to be a hard maneuver, a real hard maneuver to take bear away" boat going 45knts.

etc etc.

Point is, the plan was made in one wind strength, but executed in more wind.

When you watch it back, they get through the tack fine, and are settled on the new angle, the problem came when dean went to turn down and the runner was still on.  I do not know how the runners are controlled.

ps. without visual references it can be hard to register how fast they are going.....just look how quickly the left mark approaches. You can first see it at around 2:45:00....from 2:45:10 its rushing up, at 2:45:18 they pass it. speeds must feel min blowing on the water.

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22 minutes ago, toestrap said:

There's plenty of prepreg in Auckland between Core, Southern, Hall, YDL, and the other teams. just a matter of asking really nicely if they will delay their orders and reallocate stock.

Right Modulus, resin type and  content, weight and fibre type? Not the kind of stuff you keep in stock.

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32 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

There is a much better picture with less reflections:

The only extending crack that I can see is the one from upper left corner forward.

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2 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

2:44:31 Terry "hundred metres better to the right",

 Dean "Copy"

 2:44:32 Terry "keen to get back on this side of the course though."

Dean "Copy"

Me: So from all of the above, everyone is happy that the best decision is tack and come back on the left hand side of the course. All of this is said in be benign windstrength.  

2:44:44 Dean "would you take the left gate even with tack maneuver?

2:44:45 Terry "100metres" i.e. (my take) the difference in the date isn't worth as much as the pressure, so we need to perform the tack

 2:44:50 the gust hits and dean comments on the pressure

 

This communication is vague and has open ended answers.  With one of the participants with his head down in the boat grinding.  Perhaps they should do some reading on CRM (Cockpit Resource Management) and failures in Airliner flight management.    

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Am Magic : 50kg battery pack smashed down onto the frame = big hole + 6 hours rattling loose in the water,
need to do ultrasound see if the hull is safe to rebuild,

replace all hydraulics and electronics/fibre optics,

sort out  the  Afterguard,

its  not all about  the  'fastest  boat' if  there  is    lame  calls
hope they can make the Semis

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6 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

This communication is vague and has open ended answers.  With one of the participants with his head down in the boat grinding.  Perhaps they should do some reading on CRM (Cockpit Resource Management) and failures in Airliner flight management.    

Crews often communicate in their own verbal shorthand. They may have understood the meaning of the words, even if we don't. They are the only ones who can tell us, and they probably aren't talking, at least for now.

One of the great things about the way this event is presented for sailing consumers is the constant crew communication coming off each boat that we get to hear, particularly between Ben and Giles aboard INEOS, but many others as well. Combined with excellent video, it's a close as most of us will ever be to experiencing one of these boats.

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I'm sorry but I am a little shocked that heads arent rolling at American Magic starting with Terry Hutchison.  His blase attitude about AM's piss poor performance and total lack of leadership is infuriating.  Thank God no one got injured yesterday but they sure could of - boy that would have been a story.  

Terry Hutchison is way too old to be on the boat (Dalts figured it out and got off).  Dean needs to shut up and drive and they need a DEDICATED STRONG WILLED DECISIVE TACTICIAN THAT CALLS THE MANUVERS - THE END - NO LEADERSHIP BY COMMITTEE.

Dean and Terry remind me of two spoon fed teenagers that just crashed their rich dad's corvette.  No repercussions of any sorts will be coming from NYYC and Deano Hutch know it.

Crash a $30 million sailboat. Zero fucks given.  Business as usual. 

Compare that to INEOS.  Ben royally torched the entire team and look at them now.  But fear not - none of this will happen at American Magic - mediocrity rules the day.

Go back to the 2007 CUP Hutch / Deano combo.  Hell race 7 alone:

1. engaging in losing tacking duels

2. dialing down Alinghi on port when they could have crossed.

3.  And the best - NOT doing the penalty turn on the finish line.

That was just one race!!!

 

Its absolutely mind boggling.

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48 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

America's Cup: American Magic reveal how 83kph crash happened

American Magic have explained how an unexpected gust of wind saw Dean Barker lose control of their AC75 and capsize at 83kph.

...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123975375/americas-cup-american-magic-reveal-how-83kph-crash-happened

Why unexpected? Was anyone's head outside the boat?

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Just now, Zeusproject said:

That was hardly structural damage was it.   Most was fairings and wing damage not a metre hole in a load zone 

What about the wing? It was shredded.

Also, you are forgetting about all the electronics and hydraulics that were fucked (or fucked adjacent).

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1 hour ago, dorydude said:

It's hard to tell, but in the pics the core looks like an aluminium honeycomb. Moisture can be vacuumed out. Delamination should be worse on the outside where it is easier to fix.

Getting rid of the salt will be the issue. You've got a hull that's a battery if you don't.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

What about the wing? It was shredded.

Also, you are forgetting about all the electronics and hydraulics that were fucked (or fucked adjacent).

They had that yes and as stated wing damage not an enormous hole though plus electrical and sail damage not to mention any internal damage on top of that.   

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3 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Getting rid of the salt will be the issue. You've got a hull that's a battery if you don't.

Alu honeycomb tends to also have holes  in the cell walls to let the pressure stabilise when curing. The down side is that it fills up far beyond the damage and the area needing replacing just keeps on growing, especially when in the water for as long a they were.

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

What caused those red lines?

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1 minute ago, Zeusproject said:

They had that yes and as stated wing damage not an enormous hole though plus electrical and sail damage not to mention any internal damage on top of that.   

Its a massive task that will take hours to even asses what has to be done and how extensive the damage is 

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1 hour ago, DryAxE said:

Well, ETNZ stated it took them 8000hrs to build the hull. So if you have 50 man and 12 days, each man working 16hrs per day its 9600hrs. But this is theoretical, the first issue would be they dont have molds on site, or do they? But then again, many things can be salvaged from this boat, it would have to be only partialy rebuilt. This will be organisational and logistical race with time.

Try 80000 hours...

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

Carbon skins + aluminium honeycomb + salt water = battery .

The entire hull shell could be compromised.

It takes time for water to penetrate far AND for corrosion to have a big effect. Likely it will not compromise the whole hull (though I wouldn't want to buy it in 3 months time :)

WAG - the damaged area + 0.5m around will be compromised. It's a LOCAL impact of something flying through the air and punching out.

Yes, the ribbons you see on the external shots are just torn uni tapes.

When I watched a video of them lifting it out I was watching the hull reflections. Most are very uniform still. There was one area that might have been a fold in the hull shape though.

I would be surprised if the batteries were this far forward; keeping heavy weights centered nearer the loads (big electric motors) means your heavy cables are shorter. Low weight is very important to keep the boat foiling.  So very likely close to the middle of the boat about 2m aft of the hole.

And finally to the poor engineers who designed the battery hold down bracket/box whatever - it's very hard to design for load cases you didn't think about. That is what gets you 80% of the time. "Gee I never thought of a 2G deceleration sideways"...

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3 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Try 80000 hours...

Really? Say a boat building crew of 20 persons, doing typical Kiwi 48 weeks/year of work.

20 persons x 48 weeks x 40 hrs/week = 38,400 hours.

Now I don't think it took them 2 years to build the boat. Maybe 80,000 hours if you add all the engineering, fabrication of custom parts, electronics, etc, etc. But 80,000 hours for a hull is nuts.

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31 minutes ago, dorydude said:

The hull skin shouldn't be all that structural. It's there to keep the structural bits from sinking.

Yes but the skin is thin and its the first one to show where there was structural stress. Judging from those other photos i now only see two crack lines, as drawn in image. Hole seem to be boxed between ribs/bulkheads of the boat, and since there is some carbon tear at the bottom it probably opened like tin can from top to bottom. Maybe something hit it from the inside to start this cracks fail totaly creating loose slab that was ripped away by fast moving water on impact. I added screenshot of ETNZ hull design with bulkheads spacing, im sure Patriot has different spacing but it makes total sense why hole is so square in shape, it only opened between ribs.

1240327-03.thumb.jpeg.8c0819f2c70533db8261555b417682bdb.jpg

1240327-03.thumb.jpeg.8c0819f2c70533db8261555b417682bd.jpg

TNZ1.jpg

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6 hours ago, Marty6 said:

Wrong, Barker is the helmsman, Hutchinson is the skipper, at least according to the official roster ;)

Crazy, isn’t it?

As Hutch wanted the glory of being the skipper, he has to accept the responsibility too.

What good he believed he was doing as a grinder is a mystery. 

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1 hour ago, toestrap said:

Nonsense, if it takes 9 months to make a baby, 9 women can make a baby in 1 month. Same principle for boat builders.

I volunteer to be that one man.

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Yes, the tiny holes in the honeycomb cell walls could be an issue with water penetrating far into the hull. Oh, just checked the dates - AC is late March. That's a bit longer and yes corrosion will occur in that time frame. I don't have any feel for how long a broken panel submerged in 1m of water will take for cells to slowly fill up, then allow water into the next panel and so on. Need to laminate up a panel with one side made of plexiglass and see. Good thesis topic "Water Ingress into Damaged Honeycomb Composite Structures"

They're using aluminum honeycomb since it's the best material for the job, even though it can make a battery and is not good for longevity. These boats are not made to last for years.

Looking at the video where it was lifted out you see these nice uniform reflection curves. The one in lower front is interrupted by carbon uni hanging down. Maybe.

But these reflections suggest the hull damage isn't too bad on the part of the hull I've drawn on. Can't see enough reflections above the hole to judge.

image.png.af9ba8c008ab0d899226d7520a2dda6a.png

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39 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Their communication is on a different level.  They show authority and no indecision particularly with regard to risky moves.

They hesitate sometimes as we saw in race 3 but I agree it is not at crucial times. They only hesitate when there is time to hesitate.

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5 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Really? Say a boat building crew of 20 persons, doing typical Kiwi 48 weeks/year of work.

20 persons x 48 weeks x 40 hrs/week = 38,400 hours.

Now I don't think it took them 2 years to build the boat. Maybe 80,000 hours if you add all the engineering, fabrication of custom parts, electronics, etc, etc. But 80,000 hours for a hull is nuts.

Their build team was around 60 people. 8 months to build the boat less the 5 week forced break for COVID. So say 40 hours per week (I've never seen a boatbuilder do only 40 hours per week) x 35 weeks x 60 people and see where the numbers lay. It's north of 80000 hours.

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This is a unique scenario due to covid you can't just sack crew members and get someone else on a plane with 14 days of quarantine (also must hold an American passport due to nationality rule). 

Stuck with what they have I'm afraid. 

Unless Dennis is in Auckland? 

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25 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Getting rid of the salt will be the issue. You've got a hull that's a battery if you don't.

It only has to last through the end of the event.

Look at the big Cup sloops like Reliance in the early 20th century: bronze bottom plating on steel frames, with aluminium topsides, none galvanically isolated. Sometimes broken up shortly after the event.

Disposable boats bought by disposable income are not new in the AC. Conspicuous consumption at its most conspicuous.

I love it.

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28 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

They had that yes and as stated wing damage not an enormous hole though plus electrical and sail damage not to mention any internal damage on top of that.   

Oh well, just label me hopeful ;)

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31 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Alu honeycomb tends to also have holes  in the cell walls to let the pressure stabilise when curing. The down side is that it fills up far beyond the damage and the area needing replacing just keeps on growing, especially when in the water for as long a they were.

I was wondering if Al honeycomb for marine use was also perforated.

Ugh, what a mess.

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Being on holiday only keeping a loose eye on threads, any speculation about B1s. Who has one and state of readiness. I remember LR saying their B1 is being kept race ready which I thought was sensible but apparently nobody else is/was?

Will anyone offer Amway a boat? Wouldn't win and might bring in some extra cash? 

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1 hour ago, DryAxE said:

Well, ETNZ stated it took them 8000hrs to build the hull. So if you have 50 man and 12 days, each man working 16hrs per day its 9600hrs. But this is theoretical, the first issue would be they dont have molds on site, or do they? But then again, many things can be salvaged from this boat, it would have to be only partialy rebuilt. This will be organisational and logistical race with time.

They are not building a complete AC75 for scratch.  They have laser scanners and design documents that can match the counter of the hull that need repair.  They can print pieces to fill in the voids for the mold.  The boat will not leave the hanger, they can bring in extra help, etc...  If the boat is not too far gone/destroyed , they will have it ready to sail in time.

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2 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Being on holiday only keeping a loose eye on threads, any speculation about B1s. Who has one and state of readiness. I remember LR saying their B1 is being kept race ready which I thought was sensible but apparently nobody else is/was?

Will anyone offer Amway a boat? Wouldn't win and might bring in some extra cash? 

As I understand, they are already in the semi-final as long as they can have the boat ready to sail by the 29th Jan.

It would be nice for the event, and for keeping their race team sharp, getting straight back on the horse etc, etc, but it is not necessary for them to qualify for the SF.

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4 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

They are not building a complete AC75 for scratch.  They have laser scanners and design documents that can match the counter of the hull that need repair.  They can print pieces to fill in the voids for the mold.  The boat will not leave the hanger, they can bring in extra help, etc...  If the boat is not too far gone/destroyed , they will have it ready to sail in time.

Sometimes easier to build from scratch. Just working out what to cut out, prep, decontaminate etc adds time to a repair of  top of building the new parts. And that ignores engineering the grafts etc.

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1 hour ago, DryAxE said:

Check again this image, you can clearly see half rounded line that is really evenly distanced from arm and suggests this is reinforcement of arm into the hull. Even hole in bottom part isnt square in that corner since this circular crack intersects it. I think this is the biggest structural problem they will have to face. Hole is the least problem, but hull cracked in places where it is supposed to be strongest is a problem.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VI.jpg

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

I am not so sure those are cracks.  The surface is made of strands of carbon fiber tape that goes in various directions.  To me, it looks like the object hit the hull and broke most of the carbon fiber strips as it went through, thus the square hole.  But, it did not break all of those carbon fiber strips cleanly and some peeled back and tore off the surface finish of the hull.  It does not make sense that an object would cause those types of cracks in the hull composite.  We are just seeing where those strips peeled back the surface layer.

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2 hours ago, toestrap said:

Nonsense, if it takes 9 months to make a baby, 9 women can make a baby in 1 month. Same principle for boat builders.

I don't think the boat builders will be allowed to keep and impregnate 9 women in the forward hull section:wub:

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15 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

Despite his old age, PJ is still a better commentator than most old AND young farts here on SA. :P

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I've got the Flex-Seal trailer loaded into the Antotov and the Flex-Girls will be joining me when their Sunday afternoon shifts at the titty bar is over! Never fear, help is on the way. We are even bringing the tinny with the screen door bottom for chase boat when the racing resumes.

 

Holy Beeep!!

 

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Sadly the odds are stacked against them even if they get the boat re-built. I think their dream to win the cup is over. They were fast in the breeze but no good in the light and from what I have seen ETNZ can do both. Now ETNZ can focus on being faster than Ineos and Luna Rossa. The after guard has been aweful in the Prada cup and that doesn't make their chances any better. Sad after so much work to go out in these circumstances. The resumes of Dean and Terry are on the line too.

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20 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

I don't think the boat builders will be allowed to keep and impregnate 9 women in the forward hull section:wub:

Jeez, you guys really don't keep up with the times. These days it's all done with pre-preg, minimum fuss!

 

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1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

Alu honeycomb tends to also have holes  in the cell walls to let the pressure stabilise when curing. The down side is that it fills up far beyond the damage and the area needing replacing just keeps on growing, especially when in the water for as long a they were.

How do you know it’s an al cored hull?

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I think there is too much emphasis on a couple of issues.  If Dean had taken the soft-cock option by going around the other gate and lost say 20 secs to LR and then further down the track they had fallen into one of the holes in the wind that had developed.  This may have allowed LR to pass AM before the finish. Then the forum would be lit up with how weak Dean was and it was his fault they lost.  Dean took the racing option and so he should have.

As for the runner that is a furphy. I think you will find the main was eased as far as it could go.  There is no long sheet on the main, it is trimmed hydraulically.  These boats are not set up to reach as displacement boats reach with the main well eased.  The apparent wind is always way forward so no need to be able ease the main and jib right out.  The runner is hardly ever eased away on the leeward side but if it is it is just a small amount.  The runner did not stop the main from easing, the system just doesn't allowing to happen.

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

Their build team was around 60 people. 8 months to build the boat less the 5 week forced break for COVID. So say 40 hours per week (I've never seen a boatbuilder do only 40 hours per week) x 35 weeks x 60 people and see where the numbers lay. It's north of 80000 hours.

Well colour me surprised. That's a lot of folks - I'm guessing a significant amount of those hours account for building mast(s), foil(s), rudders(s)?  Sure they are part of the boat and have to be counted but the hours for the bare hull are likely not much different from any other high end racing boat project of similar size.

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If Hutch had any nuts he would fit out Defiant ASAP and start sailing it.  The crew obviously needs practice, so sitting around with the thumb up their asses isn’t really doing them any good.  And I am not so sure that Defiant is that much slower than Patriot.

Look at InEOS.  It’s less about the hull and more about the setup.

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9 minutes ago, trt131 said:

I think there is too much emphasis on a couple of issues.  If Dean had taken the soft-cock option by going around the other gate and lost say 20 secs to LR and then further down the track they had fallen into one of the holes in the wind that had developed.  This may have allowed LR to pass AM before the finish. Then the forum would be lit up with how weak Dean was and it was his fault they lost.  Dean took the racing option and so he should have.

As for the runner that is a furphy. I think you will find the main was eased as far as it could go.  There is no long sheet on the main, it is trimmed hydraulically.  These boats are not set up to reach as displacement boats reach with the main well eased.  The apparent wind is always way forward so no need to be able ease the main and jib right out.  The runner is hardly ever eased away on the leeward side but if it is it is just a small amount.  The runner did not stop the main from easing, the system just doesn't allowing to happen.

Agreed Barker took the right option.  However they weren't co-ordinated, communicating nor setting it up earlier enough then.  Then the execution wasn't done well nor with force which may have been a product of the lead up failings.

I agree on the runners being a red-herring.  AM of all the boats has the least leeway in easing the main because of their type of boom and a narrower traveller range compared to ETNZ and LR.

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1 hour ago, NZL4EVER said:

This is a unique scenario due to covid you can't just sack crew members and get someone else on a plane with 14 days of quarantine (also must hold an American passport due to nationality rule). 

Stuck with what they have I'm afraid. 

Unless Dennis is in Auckland? 

Dennis? You're kidding, right? The old fucker wouldn't be able to think fast enough.

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5 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

If Hutch had any nuts he would fit out Defiant ASAP and start sailing it.  The crew obviously needs practice, so sitting around with the thumb up their asses isn’t really doing them any good.  And I am not so sure that Defiant is that much slower than Patriot.

Look at InEOS.  It’s less about the hull and more about the setup.

Question is how much was stripped off Defiant to build Patriot, and how much of the electronics/hydraulics left in Defiant are needed to repair Patriot (if that’s’ the call)? I haven’t been following closely so could be off base here-agree that if Defiant is ready to sail, in NZ, and parts aren’t needed, get it on the water!

In terms of materials, typically only the highest modulus uni-carbon is tough to get. I suspect they have that in-house and if not, one of the teams does, and if not Hall/Southern have some they can probably spare if not currently using for a rig build. The extent of core damage is a bigger concern.

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