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2 minutes ago, Neverwas said:

Oh nice work, I stand corrected, however why didn't the guy who went down below notice??

 

I'd guess he did. They must have heard and felt whatever it was crash through the hull, seeing it full of water was just confirmation.

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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3 hours ago, Piet56 said:

Hindsight is a useless tool that does nothing but confirm history...... If.... woulda / coulda / shoulda does nothing but get you an audition for a frikkin talk show.....

Gentlemen, those event's happened, if aint fixing that boat..... now lets see what the experts say if Patriot is totaled, do they have a 2nd boat in AKL that could be measured and made ready in the same time?

Regardless this will go down in the books as a real learning experience for a lot of people..... Rightly or wrongly some people will be paying with their livelihoods I guess some into early retirement.... SHIT WILL STICK FROM THIS ONE

But they had never done that maneuver in any of the other races.  You have a lead, you protected it by covering the the other boat and by not taking unnecessary risks!  

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2 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

I'd guess he did. They must have heard and felt whatever it was crash through the hull, seeing it full of water was just confirmation.

Today on PATRIOT, when I was getting out of my cockpit, we were lower in the water. The ‘pop-up’ wasn't happening. So that was kind of the first indication. [Boat Captain] Tyson [Lamond] came through the comms saying ‘I think there's a hole in the boat.’ We spent the next couple of hours securing the platform.”

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2 hours ago, pwormwood said:

Sailing normal monohulls, where Terry and Dean have most experience, it is often considered safer in extreme conditions to tack and then bear away, rather than bearing away and gybing.  So, they may have been acting instinctually.  Paul was the only one with extensive foiling success and experience.  As in this example, there isn't the time to debate, or even for the tactician to pass the information to the helmsman (Particularly if you leave it to the last minute, as they seemed to have).  Paul, and his foiling instincts, should be driving . 

 

 

Dean has experience from the very beginning of foiling in the AC.

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Until the top mark, AM had been looking pretty good for the fist time in a Prada cup race.  Up until the problem, it was also a race where they seemed ok without a lot of any real tactician role.  AM did as well or better than LR in both straight line boat speed and in getting back up to speed after each maneuver.  With the possible exception of light air performance, the performance of the boat was plenty good enough. 

If AM had consistently made the best tactical choices, they were in a position where they could probably loose a few in the light and still come out on top overall.   

Yesterday, LR was no slower than Ineos, but LR mad no attempt to cover and allowed Ineos to grab a winning wind shift.  I would say that the first day of the Prada Cup and the third day of the Prada cup have shown that the Ineos choice for one less grinder and a dedicated tactician is paying off right now.

AM needs to find a reliable source of decision making help for Dean.  Once choice woudl be pretty easy.  If needed (and when he is on the correct side of the boat) Dean needs to be able to ask Terry for help, followed by Terry stopping his grinding, standing up, looking around and providing needed advice.  Someone on the other side of the boat needs to be available for the same function when appropriate.       

The choice at the top mark may have been "OK but not optimum".  The real cause of the disaster was probably more poor execution with a dash of bad luck in "getting caught" with a just wrong wind gust / shift. 

However, the need for change in better tactical decision making is very very obvious.  Hopefully they will get the boat repaired and have some opportunity to try to salvage their campaign.    

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

You can see LR continue way beyond the top gate and almost go out of bounds at the top.  Then someone on the boat reminded them that they are still in a race and have to continue sailing their boat.

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14 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

This idiot has already been pilloried in the national press...


Actually not card carrying Americans David Richwhite of Fay Richwhite notoriety running a nationality theme day  re -lack of AC tourists due to the Communist virus day before it was British with one idiot wearing a Prince Edward mask.

Not exactly classy but what would you expect from one of NZ greatest corporate Fagins.

Top real estate man Ollie Wall apologises for dressing in Capitol rioter costume 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12414533

7453782D-F882-4F3F-8DBB-3576822BC9F9.thumb.jpeg.f24576936160e605fc2dc83aabaea031.jpeg

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On running backstays:

Since these boats never really let the main out, it might be common sail an entire race without touching the backstays. Obviously not smart in this much wind.  But American Magic has done lots of heavy air practice and would/ should know it.

Decision making:

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

On the recovery: The guy has gone down the hole and probably knows the hole is. My instinct  would have been to lay her over the other way to try to get that hole above the water, or closer to the surface.

SHC

 

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Sorry, no one is going to talk me into going to the further mark is better. And either way you've got the bear away to get past. Better would be to tack, stabilize, slow bear away

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2 minutes ago, serialsailor said:

Well we know who funds this challenge.. not a suprise that supporters embrace the same fascist ideology.

How can you tell from a guy in fancy dress what his ideology is?  I think Stalin chose his victims on whims as well. 

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8 hours ago, mako23 said:

What a job list

pull out all the internals ( Hydraulics and electronics)

fix the hole or holes

fix the internal systems

test the internals

reinstall internals 

test boat

 

You forgot one item on the list: Purchase brown underwear/briefs for all crew/shore ops/chase boat personnel to be worn for the reminder of the campaign, if they are to sail again. That was a terrifying thing to watch, and I couldn't imagine being on that boat when it happened.

Sack DB. Sack him now. He's fucking dangerously incompetent, and has been for a long time. Pulling shit like that unnecessary left turn gets people killed. 

And here I thought I was in a dangerous profession all these years.....

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8 minutes ago, RMac said:

Sorry, no one is going to talk me into going to the further mark is better. And either way you've got the bear away to get past. Better would be to tack, stabilize, slow bear away

Was there space to tack, stabilise, accelerate back up to speed and then bear away before the boundary. If you don't get back up to full speed then your AWA is much further aft and that would cause what we have seen and/or make it worse. I haven't checked whether they did get up to full speed before bearing away

But that is with the expertise of hindsight

 

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55 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

1st shot: no hole

2nd: hole

 

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200453.png

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200609.png

First shot is boat coming out of the water.

Second shot is boat having crashed back down. 

Designing for a huge boat to leap out of the water at 40 knots and crash back down was probably more analytical swag than anything else.  Not a lot of historical sensor recordings from a previous / test boat to help them.  The fact that it came down on its side was likely a big factor.  My guess is that the designers did not get the load cases right.  The battery holder may have been adequately strong for up - down and fore - aft loads, but apparently failed due to side loading.  Either that, or there was a build (bad joint, bad assembly) or maintenance problem (restraint not properly re-installed).    

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Having listened to an audio of a TP52 race from Quantum w/ Terry as tactician he talks all the time and makes quick decisions.  He is integral in how the boat is sailed.  Him grinding cripples his strongest attributes in overall race course management.  If he is on the boat he should be free like Giles to actually do the tactician role is so good at.  As for Deano, you can't lay the blame on him, it is team sport.  Not a DeVos fan but hope they can get a boat back on the water to compete.

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From THs interview it sounds like there were some big holes building(we tacked in 9 knots).  50 seconds isn't that big a lead if you hit a big hole and go into displacement mode.  Right move, poor execution.  Sometimes in sailing just executing well is more important than going the right way.  We've all come into a leeward gate and decided to change buoys at the last minute and screwed up the take-down.  If Goodie isn't calling tactics then he should have just kept his mouth shut and helped execute.

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15 minutes ago, Priscilla said:


Actually not card carrying Americans David Richwhite of Fay Richwhite notoriety running a nationality theme day  re -lack of AC tourists due to the Communist virus day before it was British with one idiot wearing a Prince Edward mask.

Not exactly classy but what would you expect from one of NZ greatest corporate Fagans.

Top real estate man Ollie Wall apologises for dressing in Capitol rioter costume 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12414533

7453782D-F882-4F3F-8DBB-3576822BC9F9.thumb.jpeg.f24576936160e605fc2dc83aabaea031.jpeg

He is a fckg idiot if he did not realize the significance of the outfit.  That is as unpatriotic as a person can be.  As a side note, the real "tough guy" terrorist that wore that outfit, lives with his parents and says he can only eat organic food in prison or he will get sick..... his mommy confirmed that he needs only organic food...

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11 minutes ago, dullers said:

How can you tell from a guy in fancy dress what his ideology is?  I think Stalin chose his victims on whims as well.  

I guess you havnt been paying attention to the news, this guy is cosplaying as one of the capitol coup attempt people. The tattoos are neo pagan shit used by some neo nazi groups.

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14 minutes ago, RMac said:

Sorry, no one is going to talk me into going to the further mark is better. And either way you've got the bear away to get past. Better would be to tack, stabilize, slow bear away

No, not a slow bear away with these boats. Way too much mainsail at the Top. Classic sheathing out is impossible. I am sure Dean knew that he had to bear away as quick as possible to get rid of the damn aerodynamic on the big square head main. Am still trying to figure out what exactly makes the boat rise so high. Couldn’t be the Airbus sticker.

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12 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

 

Decision making:

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

 

SHC

 

Exactly and if Goody didn’t like the idea of the tack/bearaway he would have been better off giving useful information such as “going right is much less risky “ assuming he thought that. Stating what he did is unhelpful to someone who is loaded up controlling the boat. It just increases the mental workload as they have to reconsider all the things that lead to their original decision.

 

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The boat landed flat on the port foil. The hole is obviously an impact blow, nice and clean, as opposed to a weight (battery) shifting and the skin could not bear the load. My guess is that upon impact and submersion of the port foil one of the rams or arms for that foil failed and pierced the skin.

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3 minutes ago, Manfred said:

I am sure Dean knew that he had to bear away as quick as possible to get rid of the damn aerodynamic on the big square head main. 

Yeah.  Maybe not directly relevant, but my understanding is that's true of fast cats.... you have to make the turn aggressively to make sure you get through "the death zone" before the bow goes "into the hole".

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There is no doubt that if Goody was driving, in that brief nanosecond decision window, Goody would have overridden the plan to tack around the left gate and would have done the controlled bear away .  

 

 

Doubtless the commentators would have said something like

"American Magic have borne away and rounded the right gate. Bit of a messy rounding, they went wide. "

"Im surprised at that because left gate clearly favored"

"American Magic gave up a couple of boat lengths there rounding the wrong gate. Looks like they have gybed to get over to the right now. Kenny what do you think?"

Kenny  " They still have a good lead. For a moment I thought they would tack and take the other gate  but it might have been an abundance of caution, there was a lot of breeze on "

And we would never have known how Goody saved the day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Yeah.  Maybe not directly relevant, but my understanding is that's true of fast cats.... you have to make the turn aggressively to make sure you get through "the death zone" before the bow goes "into the hole".

Correct, when you are in medium you make a nice curve to keep the pressure and speed, in strong wind you ease the main quickly,, bear away agressively and pray you don't pitchpole.

When watching the video it seems that Dean is going too slowly and cautiously, but only somebody who have driven them could really tell.

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15 minutes ago, Golfinaspen said:

The boat landed flat on the port foil. The hole is obviously an impact blow, nice and clean, as opposed to a weight (battery) shifting and the skin could not bear the load. My guess is that upon impact and submersion of the port foil one of the rams or arms for that foil failed and pierced the skin.

It might be an Idea to have a look at the two photo's above on this thread, one as she goes up and one as she comes down before she hits the water !

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49 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

Decision Making

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

 

SHC

 

The process and protocol of decision making is key.

Yes the plan should be made well in advance but it is key that someone has the "abort" button when something changes because changes happen faster at 35 knots.  Goody made an unambiguous analysis....but the word "option" suggests it was not his call to make and TH had head in boat grinding.

I just have a gut feeling that the conversation might have gone one of these ways on Ineos.

Giles: Abort tack, huge squall, bear away and gybe is the safer option."

Ben : "Copy that, set up for bear away"

 

or

Giles; Abort tack, huge squall, bear away and gybe is the safer option"

Ben : Committed to the tack. Full focus guys. This is going to be hard on the bear away"

Succinct clear communication between driver and tactician. Roles clearly defined. Full confidence in each other. 

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When looking at video replays i see two impacts that caused stress, first was after boat went airborne it fell back down on foils really hard. It doesnt look much but foil arms have a lot of leverage to flex the hull. This first impact might have already caused some cracks and when boat fell on this weakened port side with big impact this caused those cracks to give way to cause opened hull crack, since boat still had some speed water pressure could tear away that huge chunk out of hull. Missing part can be seen on replays from many angles, floating behind the boat. Also consider hull shape of Patriot is relatively flat on part where there was impact (martini glass shaped), it may have buckled inward on impact, that could explain those paralel cracks. Other teams have rounder shaped hulls, which makes them stronger against such impacts.

patriot.jpg

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1 minute ago, DryAxE said:

Missing part can be seen on replays from many angles, floating behind the boat. 

Interesting.  The floating part visible before the hole (apparently) occurred in the flat-ish port bow pane.  The piece seen being taken off the rib back at the base has a pronounced angle to it.  Wonder where it's from?

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Just now, dorydude said:

The laminates on these boats run at all sorts of angles, so an impact hole wouldn't be square(ish).

The torn uni ribbons indicate that something came OUT through the hull, as does the square shape of the hole.

Hopefully this is the case as it will be the easiest fix.

 

Something came out for sure.  

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1 minute ago, dorydude said:

The laminates on these boats run at all sorts of angles, so an impact hole wouldn't be square(ish).

The torn uni ribbons indicate that something came OUT through the hull, as does the square shape of the hole.

Hopefully this is the case as it will be the easiest fix.

 

Present theory is that the FCS battery broke lose and went through hole

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36 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

He is a fckg idiot if he did not realize the significance of the outfit.  That is as unpatriotic as a person can be.  As a side note, the real "tough guy" terrorist that wore that outfit, lives with his parents and says he can only eat organic food in prison or he will get sick..... his mommy confirmed that he needs only organic food...

"Top real estate man" is pretty good code for "fckg idiot' around these parts...

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Just now, mako23 said:

Present theory is that the FCS battery broke lose and went through hole

I think this is likely... to punch through like that, the object would have had to have momentum, so it's unlikely to be a mount just sitting against the hull, it's something that came crashing through...

NZ Herald article quotes TH as saying they hope to be back in two weeks - that sounds like they expect to be able to  patch/repair, and then re-install, re-test, re-comission etc.. 

Somewhat good news :-)

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

I'm curious.... not that it matters, but did LR somehow know everyone on AM was OK as they foiled past?  Could they hear the headcount on their comms (or through an official) or something?

If I saw that happen in front of me.... I'd think it was proper to at least slow down or stand by in care there was need for assistance.  Yeah, probably really hard to do in those boats in that breeze, but.... I'd hate to hear 5 minutes later that there were bodies in the water and I could have done something to help when it mattered.

Nonsense. An unstable boat riddled with sharp foily bits would be nothing but a hazard. There were support boats everywhere. They came to the rescue. Prada did exactly what they should have. They stayed well clear. 

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1 minute ago, dorydude said:

That's exactly what it looks like. Hopefully the case as the structural damage will be minimal.

Damage is bit more than the hole . I’m tipping the core will destroyed and a smallish hole becomes a massive one before fixing can even begin 

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Nonsense. An unstable boat riddled with sharp foily bits would be nothing but a hazard. There were support boats everywhere. They came to the rescue. Prada did exactly what they should have. They stayed well clear. 

Support boats could be in the scene faster and have all the right gear in most cases . Prada’s first job is to make sure they are safe and clear so the support guys can do there jobs.   Which they did including every other teams boats and support crews 

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:

That's exactly what it looks like. Hopefully the case as the structural damage will be minimal.

Well, when looking at this image and also some video footage, reflections are showing crack lines, this is how I see them. Notice that half circular crack in front of arm reinforcement. Thats structural damage in my opinion.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

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Hopefully they can get Patriot back on the water soon.

I actually think Patriot is a rocket and has lost every race to key tactical errors.

This one is glaringly obvious.

Goodison knew it was going to be tough. They had just got a left shift with increased pressure coming into the top left mark, you can see the big ease on the main and a call to ease the jib, boat speed hits 44 knots. So what was a hard manouvre, tacking and then gybing to do a 180 now became turning through 200 degrees in a strong puff.

As Goodison called it, a really hard manouvre, and proved to be right. 

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7 hours ago, dullers said:

They have some of the best engineers and maint people in the business.  I dont count them out for 3 days either. They wont be working 9 to 5 it will be night and day so you could say that have 6 working days to fix this or 22 if they go the other final playoff route. 

Water ingress into the hull skin might decide whether it's repairable or not. Carbon skins + aluminium honeycomb + salt water = battery .

The entire hull shell could be compromised.

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1 minute ago, NZL3481 said:

Water ingress into the hull skin might decide whether it's repairable or not. Carbon skins + aluminium honeycomb + salt water = battery .

The entire hull shell could be compromised.

Tracking the core sheer alone is a task in itself.  One smallish  hole becomes very big real quick 

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5 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Prada’s first job is to make sure they are safe and clear so the support guys can do there jobs.   

Completely agree.  I'm not for a second thinking Prada should have "hove to" (if that's even a thing) and come alongside.

I'm just thinking that, from a "law of the sea" point of view (or maybe my personal ethic?) foiling away at 35 knots isn't really the same as standing by at a safe and clear distance.  

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15 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Interesting.  The floating part visible before the hole (apparently) occurred in the flat-ish port bow pane.  The piece seen being taken off the rib back at the base has a pronounced angle to it.  Wonder where it's from?

My first idea was that it came of the stern somewhere...

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6 hours ago, Murphness said:

The problem with TH is that he presumably put his weight behind the decision to hire the skipper who holds the title for what is perhaps the biggest failure in sports history. Good riddance.

Dennis Conner is on the team? Who knew?!

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51 minutes ago, serialsailor said:

I guess you havnt been paying attention to the news, this guy is cosplaying as one of the capitol coup attempt people. The tattoos are neo pagan shit used by some neo nazi groups.

I do follow the news and my point still stands.

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Just now, alphafb552 said:

My first idea was that it came of the stern somewhere...

Well at first i thought it must be part of the foil, but it felt strange if foil since its 100% carbon and i doubt it would float. Only logical explanation is that this is missing part that was broken away on impact.

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7 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Water ingress into the hull skin might decide whether it's repairable or not. Carbon skins + aluminium honeycomb + salt water = battery .

The entire hull shell could be compromised.

I doubt it.

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The hole is just a flesh wound. The issue will be the structure that caused it. The foil arm support structure has to be the structure that caused that. So a fundamental structural failure. When it takes thousands of hours to build, it can’t take a few days to repair. I don’t see these guys sailing again this cup.

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Just now, DryAxE said:

Well at first i thought it must be part of the foil, but it felt strange if foil since its 100% carbon and i doubt it would float. Only logical explanation is that this is missing part that was broken away on impact.

The foils are ballasted  so not 100 percent carbon . Apparent have to be 1 to 1.5 tonne

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5 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Completely agree.  I'm not for a second thinking Prada should have "hove to" (if that's even a thing) and come alongside.

I'm just thinking that, from a "law of the sea" point of view (or maybe my personal ethic?) foiling away at 35 knots isn't really the same as standing by at a safe and clear distance.  

You’re asking for an utterly pointless, token gesture. 

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2 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

The hole is just a flesh wound. The issue will be the structure that caused it. The foil arm support structure has to be the structure that caused that. So a fundamental structural failure. When it takes thousands of hours to build, it can’t take a few days to repair. I don’t see these guys sailing again this cup.

Well, if they really thought about it, Team NZ has its own purpose built Boat building facility on the shore that specialise in carbon composite race yachts. Maybe get it on a truck, send it to those guys and get the job done. Yes they’re the competition, but surely they’re also boat building professionals. After yesterday the priority should be getting that boat back on the water ASAP.

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5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

You’re asking for an utterly pointless, token gesture. 

Yes and from a practical point the safest thing to do is ensure you don’t tip as well thereby splitting the rescue resource requirement. 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Well, if they really thought about it, Team NZ has its own purpose built Boat building facility on the shore that specialise in carbon composite race yachts. Maybe get it on a truck, send it to those guys and get the job done. Yes they’re the competition, but surely they’re also boat building professionals. After yesterday the priority should be getting that boat back on the water ASAP.

They also have there boat to look after and optimise . You can only put so many guys on a project at a time and cure times don’t change with more people . This is massive repair not just glue a piece in and paint over 

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America's Cup 2021: American Magic skipper Terry Hutchinson recounts team's Prada Cup capsize

American Magic skipper Terry Hutchinson has admitted he thought his team's AC75, Patriot, was going to sink after capsizing during the Prada Cup on Sunday.

The American yacht led in the final race of the weekend, against Luna Rossa, but was hit by a strong puff of wind when making a manoeuvre around the final gate and was lifted out of the water before slamming back down.

Speaking exclusively to Newstalk ZB Sport's Matt Brown when the team arrived back to their base, Hutchinson said he wasn't sure the yacht would survive the incident.

"When you start attaching things to the top of the mast, you know that's not a good situation. But we'll assess the situation; obviously the boats are highly complicated on the inside. We'll have a good look at her and figure out where we go from here."

While no one on board was injured in the incident, the vessel sustained a large hole in its hull and began taking on water.

American Magic received support on the ocean from all three other America's Cup syndicates - Team New Zealand, Ineos Team UK and Luna Rossa - as well as emergency services. The group worked for more than two and a-half hours to keep the vessel afloat.

Ultimately, they managed to stabilise the vessel, but had to continuously run pumps to siphon the water out of it. Because of the location of the hole, the boat was towed backwards to the team base at just 2-3 knots.

And because Sunday's racing was held on Course A - off the coast of Milford, about 17km away from the team bases - they did not get back to base until after 10.30pm, almost five hours after the initial incident. The boat wasn't lifted out of the water until 11.25pm.

"I think we all saw the same thing, so there was definitely a lot of concern," Hutchinson said.

"I do need to make sure I say thank you to the local authorities - the fire department and the police - and particularly to Team New Zealand, Luna Rossa and Team Ineos for the support they gave us on the water. Team New Zealand in particular helped tow us back to the dock for three and a half hours.

"In these moments, you get the true sense of what competitors can do for you and how we should all treat each other. They showed a great display of sportsmanship."

Hutchinson was full of praise for Team New Zealand in particular, with members of the team staying with the American Magic crew for the full journey to base, with others taking pizzas out for the long trip back.

Hutchinson said it was too early to know just how big a job it would be to get Patriot back on the water, but it was unlikely they would be ready to go for next weekend's racing.

Instead, Hutchinson was hopeful American Magic would be able to sail in the semifinal in two weeks.

"It all felt pretty normal, but through the manoeuvre the boat loaded up and the communication was losing a little bit of the rudder, and I think we got hit by a really big puff and the boat just rolled over.

"We obviously sustained some damage to the bow of the boat. It's too early to really comment on how long it takes or the extent of it. We'll get a better look at it when we get Patriot in the shed and from there we're going to keep our sights set on the semifinal, get our feet back on the ground.

"Things that don't kill you are only going to make you stronger, and I'm exceptionally confident in the team.

"Until you're dead, you're not. I've always been confident in Patriot and the performances she's shown, and I think we'll have to keep it in perspective: we're here, no one was hurt which is a major bonus, and we go forward from there.

"It's the America's Cup; we have to be prepared to fight for it, and we will. From that perspective, we'll just keep approaching it in the same way we have for the past three years. We have a really solid group of people here, we've pushed each other continually for the past three years from the mule to Defiant to Patriot, and I think there's also a lot of support we can probably get from the outside with local boat builders. There's some great craftsmen here in New Zealand that, if we need to reach out, we'll be sure to call them and help boost the economy a little more."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/americas-cup-2021-american-magic-skipper-terry-hutchinson-recounts-teams-prada-cup-capsize/BYBOTXEBUGU7OIJEMPUCDNSJ4Y/

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9 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Well, if they really thought about it, Team NZ has its own purpose built Boat building facility on the shore that specialise in carbon composite race yachts. Maybe get it on a truck, send it to those guys and get the job done. Yes they’re the competition, but surely they’re also boat building professionals. After yesterday the priority should be getting that boat back on the water ASAP.

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

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I dont think they will be able to repair it till friday. What happens if they miss this deadline, could they skip 2nd weekend races but still go to semifinals with whoever is going to be a looser between Luna Rossa and Ineos? Based on points right now they would probably battle Luna Rossa. Skipping next weekend would give them about 12 days to repair boat.

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1 hour ago, RMac said:

Sorry, no one is going to talk me into going to the further mark is better. And either way you've got the bear away to get past. Better would be to tack, stabilize, slow bear away

You've clearly never sailed a foiler

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7 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Hutchinson said it was too early to know just how big a job it would be to get Patriot back on the water, but it was unlikely they would be ready to go for next weekend's racing.

Instead, Hutchinson was hopeful American Magic would be able to sail in the semifinal in two weeks.

Well, exactly what i pointed previously. Means its really bad damage and lots of work to repair.

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1 hour ago, RMac said:

slow bear away

:( 

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of which are the high risk maneuvers in these boats and why.

1) tack bear away

2) bear away

3) gybe head up

4) head up tack

6) head up

5) gybe

6) tack

 

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5 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

Are these guys still in Warkworth.

B34E2F37-3D3C-4711-9FAC-F1AEBFF34DF6.thumb.jpeg.491c921cb805efbed695748ced92ef03.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

Source: your ass

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32 minutes ago, DryAxE said:

Well, when looking at this image and also some video footage, reflections are showing crack lines, this is how I see them. Notice that half circular crack in front of arm reinforcement. Thats structural damage in my opinion.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

Are these guys still in Warkworth.

B34E2F37-3D3C-4711-9FAC-F1AEBFF34DF6.thumb.jpeg.491c921cb805efbed695748ced92ef03.jpeg

It’s not about having builders , it’s time to do the whole job with cure times and the whole list of other parts not the number of builders you throw at it 

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6 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Doesn’t change the simple issue of man hours needed to fix it. 50,000 boat builders can’t build an AC75 in one hour. It doesn’t matter how many people you throw at this, it would take beyond the time this Cup is over to do that fix properly 

Well, ETNZ stated it took them 8000hrs to build the hull. So if you have 50 man and 12 days, each man working 16hrs per day its 9600hrs. But this is theoretical, the first issue would be they dont have molds on site, or do they? But then again, many things can be salvaged from this boat, it would have to be only partialy rebuilt. This will be organisational and logistical race with time.

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2 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

It’s not about having builders , it’s time to do the whole job with cure times and the whole list of other parts not the number of builders you throw at it 

They have 11 days ...should be doable 

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

Yep the Gib and a harness were strapped around the bow presumably to seal off the hole.  I imagine a carbon gib with battons wouldn't do the polish much good.

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4 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

It’s not about having builders , it’s time to do the whole job with cure times and the whole list of other parts not the number of builders you throw at it 

Nonsense, if it takes 9 months to make a baby, 9 women can make a baby in 1 month. Same principle for boat builders.

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2 minutes ago, DryAxE said:

Well, ETNZ stated it took them 8000hrs to build the hull. So if you have 50 man and 12 days, each man working 16hrs per day its 9600hrs. But this is theoretical, the first issue would be they dont have molds on site, or do they? But then again, many things can be salvaged from this boat, it would have to be only partialy rebuilt. This will be organisational and logistical race with time.

No where near that simple. The hole can be fixed easy enough. But the complex internal structure is a different case. If they don’t have the prepreg they need ready to go, the lead time on that alone will be 8-12 weeks. They will needs lots of very specific materials. Layup and cure cycles, NDT and processes will take a huge amount of time. It isn’t about the hole.

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America's Cup: American Magic reveal how 83kph crash happened

American Magic have explained how an unexpected gust of wind saw Dean Barker lose control of their AC75 and capsize at 83kph.

The team, backed by the powerful New York Yacht Club, suffered no injuries to their 11-man crew but Patriot has a major hole in the left of its bow, after the dramatic crash turned into a five-hour salvage operation off Auckland’s North Shore on Sunday night.

The accident came in their race against Luna Rossa in the Prada Cup round-robin racing. Barker had Patriot leading into the top mark for the final time and on course for their first victory before disaster struck as he turned down wind.

The bear away is one of the trickiest moves in these high-powered foiling monohulls – effectively a double move of a tack followed by a gybe – and the slingshot effect produces an instant lift in speed. The unexpected gust of wind added to that, loading up the power on the boat and complicating handling as Patriot reared out of control.

Patriot’s speedometer showed the boat going around the mark at 34 knots (63kph) and then getting instantly boosted to 45 knots (83kph).

The boat's rudder – its steering device – lost traction as Patriot’s nose lifted and the AC75 came completely out of the water before crashing down and rolling on to its left side with the crew on that side scrambling to get clear from under the giant wing sail. 

Onboard communication systems suggested some doubts about the tactics employed and there appeared to be a problem in not easing the leeward backstay through the bear away. But skipper Terry Hutchinson backed the move made by Barker as American Magic tried to solidify the healthy lead against the hard-charging Italians in a race where winds were approaching the upper limit set at 21 knots.

“Dean made the correct decision to tack around the left gate, keep us in the pressure and just try to deliver us down to the finish,” Hutchinson said.

“We got hit by a reasonably big gust. When you're racing the boat, you're racing the boat.

“Obviously it's not exactly the day that we wanted. We had a good race going and the boat was going really well.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123975375/americas-cup-american-magic-reveal-how-83kph-crash-happened

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4 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

No where near that simple. The hole can be fixed easy enough. But the complex internal structure is a different case. If they don’t have the prepreg they need ready to go, the lead time on that alone will be 8-12 weeks. They will needs lots of very specific materials. Layup and cure cycles, NDT and processes will take a huge amount of time. It isn’t about the hole.

There's plenty of prepreg in Auckland between Core, Southern, Hall, YDL, and the other teams. just a matter of asking really nicely if they will delay their orders and reallocate stock.

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If TH's on-board comms were down, as Kenny Read mentioned several times, that could explain the disjointed, slightly panicky discussion that took place.

It might also explain why AM were late into the starting box for that race.

Both TH and DB are copping a lot of blame, but if TH couldn't talk to DB they had a serious handicap.

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16 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

Check again this image, you can clearly see half rounded line that is really evenly distanced from arm and suggests this is reinforcement of arm into the hull. Even hole in bottom part isnt square in that corner since this circular crack intersects it. I think this is the biggest structural problem they will have to face. Hole is the least problem, but hull cracked in places where it is supposed to be strongest is a problem.

Er86l8pUwAAC4VI.jpg

Er86l8pUwAAC4VIb.jpg

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

Maybe the structure had previously been weakened and compromised.

 

That 'maneuver' was nerve wracking to see in the practice footage, not just once either.  

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

On running backstays:

Since these boats never really let the main out, it might be common sail an entire race without touching the backstays. Obviously not smart in this much wind.  But American Magic has done lots of heavy air practice and would/ should know it.

Decision making:

35 knots = 18 meters per second= 1.27 boat lengths.  15 seconds = 270 meters or more than two football fields.  Things happen fast. You should have isolated the plan long before Goody expressed doubt.   I was surprised at the apparent rushed, and urgent tone.   When things get chaotic you try to slow yourself down and check off all the steps.  Cross, tack , cross runner off , sheet out bear away.   Sure the pro move is to do it in one smooth drill, and we would have been awestruck by the brilliance of American Magic and pay them compliments into next week.

On the recovery: The guy has gone down the hole and probably knows the hole is. My instinct  would have been to lay her over the other way to try to get that hole above the water, or closer to the surface.

SHC

 

 Key things: The plan was made in lower wind than it was executed, as per the below.

Soon after AM comes onto Port (for the approach to the final mark) and Dean takes the wheel, ~2:44:20.....the key thing is that the wind strength for all of the following is good but not full on i.e. no raised voices, straight forward sailing (for these guys!). Goodison reconfirms what they are all agreeing that they want the left downwind.......

2:44:22 Goodison: Staying high here for pressure"

2:44:25 Terry: "xxxx (unclear) angle"

2:44:27 Deam: "copy that"......whatever Terry said, Dean understood

2:44:29 Goodison "all about just staying to the left here for this pressure".........me: I am not certain, but I understand Goodison to be saying, we want to be going downwind on this lefthand side leaving the top mark, i.e. we want to tack and take the left mark.

2:44:31 Terry "hundred metres better to the right",

Dean "Copy"

2:44:32 Terry "keen to get back on this side of the course though."

Dean "Copy"

Me: So from all of the above, everyone is happy that the best decision is tack and come back on the left hand side of the course. All of this is said in be benign windstrength.  

2:44:44 Dean "would you take the left gate even with tack maneuver?

2:44:45 Terry "100metres" i.e. (my take) the difference in the date isn't worth as much as the pressure, so we need to perform the tack

2:44:50 the gust hits and dean comments on the pressure

2:44:56 wind strength increases again and goodison calls for an ease as the jib isn''t being trimmed

2:45:00 Given the increased wind strength, Goodison starts questioning the tack and bear away maneuver. Boat is going upwind at 43knts.

2:45:07 Goody: "I think there is a smarter move to bear away and gybe, its going to be a hard maneuver, a real hard maneuver to take bear away" boat going 45knts.

etc etc.

Point is, the plan was made in one wind strength, but executed in more wind.

When you watch it back, they get through the tack fine, and are settled on the new angle, the problem came when dean went to turn down and the runner was still on.  I do not know how the runners are controlled.

ps. without visual references it can be hard to register how fast they are going.....just look how quickly the left mark approaches. You can first see it at around 2:45:00....from 2:45:10 its rushing up, at 2:45:18 they pass it. speeds must feel min blowing on the water.

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22 minutes ago, toestrap said:

There's plenty of prepreg in Auckland between Core, Southern, Hall, YDL, and the other teams. just a matter of asking really nicely if they will delay their orders and reallocate stock.

Right Modulus, resin type and  content, weight and fibre type? Not the kind of stuff you keep in stock.

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32 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m not sure those are cracks...they also might be were the paint has been worn of with all sorts of objects were rammed  against the hull when rescuing the boat 

There is a much better picture with less reflections:

The only extending crack that I can see is