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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Just watched the replay again.  If the hole was made that big solely by the crash wouldn't the boat have taken water on quicker than it did?

It takes some time before boats get there with flotation devices.  For a couple or minutes you can see one of the crew standing on the lower gunwhale  below the rudder with his feet in water.  

I would have thought with that size hole it would have filled up quicker.

The Rule includes language about sealed bulkheads, I forget the details, but maybe that helped. 

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

:( 

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of which are the high risk maneuvers in these boats and why.

1) tack bear away

2) bear away

3) gybe head up

4) head up tack

6) head up

5) gybe

6) tack

 

Retracted! Asked a friend who is a world class foiling champ, he said the gybe would be safer, would have gone for it even worth extra distance apologies for being wrong

 

 

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7 hours ago, nav said:

Interesting call by Casper after the fact

He was wearing 2 sets, the broadcast one was not working, onboard comms seemed to function normally, so he was in the loop.

 

Thanks Nav.  did not know that. Bit of CEO speak which is expected. Much more to filter out. 

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Oh that's worse than the picture I posted. I've circled in red what I *think* is damaged hull skin. The outline in blue is probably what you would cut out to do a repair. For a repair like this you don't do a piecemeal effort. You just cut a nice big rectangular hole and capture all the damaged area. You're minimizing the lap perimeter thus minimizing weight.

Edit - the area on top of the hole circled in red might be the reflection of a ladder!

You can see the frame through the hole that probably supports the foil hardware.

Jan 29th? Sucking air through teeth sound. "Maybe gov'nor, just maybe". But I wouldn't bet on it.

image.thumb.png.1ac018191a1272cc8abb6d97202be481.png

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

I think there is too much emphasis on a couple of issues.  If Dean had taken the soft-cock option by going around the other gate and lost say 20 secs to LR and then further down the track they had fallen into one of the holes in the wind that had developed.  This may have allowed LR to pass AM before the finish. Then the forum would be lit up with how weak Dean was and it was his fault they lost.  Dean took the racing option and so he should have.

As for the runner that is a furphy. I think you will find the main was eased as far as it could go.  There is no long sheet on the main, it is trimmed hydraulically.  These boats are not set up to reach as displacement boats reach with the main well eased.  The apparent wind is always way forward so no need to be able ease the main and jib right out.  The runner is hardly ever eased away on the leeward side but if it is it is just a small amount.  The runner did not stop the main from easing, the system just doesn't allowing to happen.

They wouldnt have lost in that breeze

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This sort of shows the futility of doing composite structure failure analysis based on a shiny reflective surface at night! Looking at it again, a lot of what I think was damage was maybe reflections of stuff on the ground.

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

This sort of shows the futility of doing composite structure failure analysis based on a shiny reflective surface at night! Looking at it again, a lot of what I think was damage was maybe reflections of stuff on the ground.

Wouldn’t be the first boat written off by a pic of a boat  with reflection from something else.    ETNZ boat 1 was a total write off apparently 

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27 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The Rule includes language about sealed bulkheads, I forget the details, but maybe that helped. 

On NZ Radio a person working on the salvage said that it was touch and go and only minutes away from it sinking.  Now if that hole wasn't caused by the crash then the only explanation for the relatively slow fill was that there is other structural damage inside where the water seeped rather than poured.  

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

My guess is that a battery broke off its mounting and crashed through.
 

We’ve seen 5 AC75 sky jump capsizes (3 by ETNZ) but this is the first splashdown that was this much ‘sideways’.

My other guess is that they will be good to go by the 29th. 
 

edit: looking fwd to hearing from TH in about 90 minutes. 

Can you post the link?

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Peter Lester:

"The boat is really vulnerable [at that moment] if there's a gust of wind or a wind change and right at the critical moment where they went around the mark, they got big squirt.

"At that point, they lost the rudder, they lost steerage and the end plate of the rudder cavitated and the cavitation means the rudder isn't working anymore.

"The rudder sinks, the back of the boat sinks, the lead foil gets a lot of elevation and you're off into space and at that point, you're totally out of control."

https://amp.tvnz.co.nz/news/story/JTJGY29udGVudCUyRnR2bnolMkZvbmVuZXdzJTJGc3RvcnklMkYyMDIxJTJGMDElMkYxOCUyRmFuYWx5c2lzLXBldGVyLWxlc3Rlci1icmVha3MtZG93bi1tb21lbnQtYW5kLWFmdGVybWF0aC1vZi1hbWVyaQ==

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8 minutes ago, Midnight Run said:

Can you post the link?

TC, I think you posted it already? edit: unclear to me if it will be available from in the US without using a VPN, am going to dial up TE’s Sailing Illustrated FB page, he will have it live

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54 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Wouldn’t be the first boat written off by a pic of a boat  with reflection from something else.    ETNZ boat 1 was a total write off apparently 

It was, they never sailed it again and never will ;)

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It was the internal structure - as I had been suspecting: cross beams / struts!

I still would be surprised if that hole was the result from that. Because if so, then the design would have been flawed in the very first place, not distributing the force widespread enough.

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1 minute ago, E2nO said:

It was the internal structure - as I had been suspecting: cross beams / struts!

I still would be surprised if that hole was the result from that. Because if so, then the design would have been flawed in the very first place, not distributing the force widespread enough.

The skin just keeps the water out.  The structure is to link the foil and rig forces.  

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

This communication is vague and has open ended answers.  With one of the participants with his head down in the boat grinding.  Perhaps they should do some reading on CRM (Cockpit Resource Management) and failures in Airliner flight management.    

It's not clear that

- Hutchinson doing some grinding had any adverse impact

- there was any significant miscommunication

- the decision to go left necessarily caused the capsize

- the capsize would have been expected to cause any significant damage (for example it looked arguably more gentle than ETNZ's abrupt nosedive last week)

So for all we know it's academic.

Having said that, I'd agree it's a really vivid example of on boat decision making. The on board video of them screaming into the dark weather at the top mark while discussing the options is a cracker. Everyone (who races crewed boats) would know about decisions being second guessed coming into a challenging mark. The speeds and stakes are normally just a tad lower.

For my money it seemed like Hutchinson & Barker were happy enough going left (after Barker sounded out the option earlier). Goodison raised his concerns late in the piece but Barker clearly reiterated they were going ahead then slung them into the tack and bear away at lots of knots helming from the leeward side in a gust. Amazing action. Pity about the outcome, that LSD livestream last night was getting a bit sickening a times. Great to see them get her back up.

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3 minutes ago, TimmyHate said:

Good to hear they can still throw some good natured shit around ('no big macs and fries')

NZL is sponsored by McDonalds but at the request of AM brought pizza to the tow in .... funny to see a good natured sponsorship joke .

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Just now, Tropical Madness said:

Terry doesnt see what everyone outside the boat is seeing - the fact that there isnt a dedicated tactician... so they will continue to lose in shifty and transient conditions.

Also, on his answer about reacting to the shift - "if you look at the graph the wind went from 12 to 20 in 3 seconds"


Hard to react to stuff in real-time by looking at a graph in a race debrief 

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3 minutes ago, .......................... said:

NZL is sponsored by McDonalds but at the request of AM brought pizza to the tow in .... funny to see a good natured sponsorship joke .

Not to mention as a response to a light question if they wished it had been something a bit stronger.

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Hindsight is wonderful.  They were going for the win FFS.

There is no mainsheet, its all hydraulic.  Easing the head open more would not have done anything.

It didn't take hindsight to know they were seriously powered up before they even reached the mark. There were plenty of indications, just need to have your head out of the boat.  Experience bearing off while foiling and overpowered would help.... oh wait, there was one guy on the boat suggesting it was a bad call.  Poor form that he didn't make it more obvious, though no idea what the culture is like on their boat, so no idea how a direct contradiction to the helmsman would go down.

 

Please show me the picture where the hydraulic ram is connected directly to the boom.  Or let me know the name of that soft fiber connection between the ram and the boom.  I'm very interested to learn.

While you're at it, please explain how opening the top of a fat head doesn't spill power.  If there's no power up there, whats the point of a fat head main?

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5 minutes ago, nroose said:

I am watching the presser again. I missed the beginning. Did he address the runners?

Edit - sorry that is -27 minutes or 5 minutes after start.

Yes, at 27 minutes.  Basically, my translation is maybe it wasn't completely eased, he hasn't looked at all the data, but he doesn't feel like that was the issue.

 

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

I think there is too much emphasis on a couple of issues.  If Dean had taken the soft-cock option by going around the other gate and lost say 20 secs to LR and then further down the track they had fallen into one of the holes in the wind that had developed.  This may have allowed LR to pass AM before the finish. Then the forum would be lit up with how weak Dean was and it was his fault they lost.  Dean took the racing option and so he should have.

As for the runner that is a furphy. I think you will find the main was eased as far as it could go.  There is no long sheet on the main, it is trimmed hydraulically.  These boats are not set up to reach as displacement boats reach with the main well eased.  The apparent wind is always way forward so no need to be able ease the main and jib right out.  The runner is hardly ever eased away on the leeward side but if it is it is just a small amount.  The runner did not stop the main from easing, the system just doesn't allowing to happen.

Boat needs a big red button to hit if risk of capsize that instantly eases everything simultaeosly :"That was Easy"  

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3 minutes ago, Lat35sowth said:

So my understanding is that some part of the internal framing/stringer punched the hole due to water pressure on outside of hull as it hit side on?

That's the story.

Not sure I understand how that would result in big ribbons of uni-directional CF hanging outside the hole.

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19 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Boat needs a big red button to hit if risk of capsize that instantly eases everything simultaeosly :"That was Easy"  

Once the foils ain't working (in this case rudder) it don't matter what you do in terms of an ease.  Bye-bye.  Talk to folks who sail multis and foil.  The boards have to be working.  Overload them and its over.  And I may need to withdraw my comments re runners.  Not sure they ever get eased or that the boat is set up such that main can even be eased that far.  Designed and set up for apparent wind sailing only perhaps. The hold after that tack and thus (relatively) slow speed bear away may have doomed them and overloaded the rudder foil.  Says the hick from the sticks who is a wanker hack.  Interesting presser.

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Structural loading and damage could have occurred early on in the speed build coming off the mark causing the foil to angle to change, causing the boat to be unstable. Just a guess. I have seen it happen on fast boats I have sailed on before including mine. TH would be one of the best sailors 99.9% of you would have the privilege of sailing with. The American boat has a hole in it just like American democracy. Both can be fixed but will take some time.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

They popped a panel from what I heard.

That doesn't quite match the evidence.  Why have a "panel" there?

If it was a panel then it wasn't well designed/secured because it should have withstood those forces. 

The foil and foil arm took the brunt of the downward force and  by the time that part of the hull hit the water much of the energy would have been dissipated.

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25 minutes ago, Lat35sowth said:

So my understanding is that some part of the internal framing/stringer punched the hole due to water pressure on outside of hull as it hit side on?

the small irate bull that was being raped down below was a different one to the moaning but docile one they've had as a regular, this one was a fiesty little bugger and kicked his way out, held its breath and didnt stop when it hit the beach

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57 minutes ago, E2nO said:

It was the internal structure - as I had been suspecting: cross beams / struts!

I still would be surprised if that hole was the result from that. Because if so, then the design would have been flawed in the very first place, not distributing the force widespread enough.

I'd say more the case of designing a structure based on slamming load cases that weren't quite that high.  There's always always a risk/reward trade-off between weight and strength in race boats based on expected load cases.  When they've exceeded these all bets are off.  The same thing happens in IMOCAs - recall a few boats having bows rebuilt a few years back.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That doesn't quite match the evidence.  Why have a "panel" there?

If it was a panel then it wasn't well designed/secured because it should have withstood those forces. 

The foil and foil arm took the brunt of the downward force and  by the time that part of the hull hit the water much of the energy would have been dissipated.

Crikey listen to what TH said it's pretty black and white.

If you beg to differ give him a ring and fill him in on your concerns regarding Amways designers and engineers failing in their tasks.

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30 minutes ago, Lat35sowth said:

So my understanding is that some part of the internal framing/stringer punched the hole due to water pressure on outside of hull as it hit side on?

I'd say the panel popped inside out between the frames under extreme slamming load and the strength of the rigid frames sheared the panel along the line of the transverse and longitudinal frames.  That laminate isn't designed to flex, I would imagine, so it just let go.  Chances are that the hull panels around the popped one were also flexed and probably deliaminated.

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So I watched the presser and must admit I'm still none the wiser as to how exactly Patriot got a giant fucking hole.

These pressers remind of the covid ones, where the 'journos' would sooner say something witty about pizzas than ask how the hole got there.

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6 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The foil and foil arm took the brunt of the downward force and  by the time that part of the hull hit the water much of the energy would have been dissipated.

I'm going off what Terry said. 

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey listen to what TH said it's pretty black and white.

If you beg to differ give him a ring and fill him in on your concerns regarding Amways designers and engineers failing in their tasks.

Just making an observation Priscilla.  If the explanation makes perfect sense to you then fine.

However why isn't there wider damage to the hull if water pressure forces were so great?  They weren't directed at one spot like a fire hose were they?

If there is no other hull damage then the "panel" was a weakness.  Or maybe it was a repair from a previous SNAFU.

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey listen to what TH said it's pretty black and white.

If you beg to differ give him a ring and fill him in on your concerns regarding Amways designers and engineers failing in their tasks.

 

Just now, DickDastardly said:

I'd say the panel popped inside out between the frames under extreme slamming load and the strength of the rigid frames sheared the panel along the line of the transverse and longitudinal frames.  That laminate isn't designed to flex, I would imagine, so it just let go.  Chances are that the hull panels around the popped one were also flexed and probably deliaminated.

and here i was thinking it was a battery pack for the foils that just went mother in law and departed through that neat square hole

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1 minute ago, 167149 said:

and here i was thinking it was a battery pack for the foils that just went mother in law and departed through that neat square hole

That stupid rumour did the rounds in here, and on that AC FB group, which is full of idiots.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

However why isn't there wider damage to the hull if water pressure forces were so great?  They weren't directed at one spot like a fire hose were they?

There probably is, and a large area of boat will need to be replaced.  The popped panel was at "Ground Zero" and the loads went over breaking point there while they didn't quite get there in the other panels.

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3 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Chances are that the hull panels around the popped one were also flexed and probably deliaminated.

That's what I'm suggesting.  If the forces were so enormous as Hutchison said then you'd expect other "panels" to have been stressed.

The veracity  of what Hutchison said at the presser has to be taken with a grain of salt.  A bit like thinking that AM will take up the offer of Grant Daltons boat builders crawling all over the boat!

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8 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

So I watched the presser and must admit I'm still none the wiser as to how Patriot got a giant fucking hole.

These pressers remind of the covid ones, where the 'journos' would sooner say something witty about pizzas than ask how the hole got there.

You and KB are starting to sound like the SAAC equivalent of QAnon.

 

7 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Just making an observation Priscilla.  If the explanation makes perfect sense to you then fine.

However why isn't there wider damage to the hull if water pressure forces were so great?  

 

They are called frames and stringers and bulkheads.

Oh and floors and keelsons etc etc

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

You and KB are starting to sound like the SAAC equivalent of QAnon.

 

They are called frames and stringers and bulheads.

I'm not suggesting subterfuge... I just don't understand what happened...

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2 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

There probably is, and a large area of boat will need to be replaced.  The popped panel was at "Ground Zero" and the loads went over breaking point there while they didn't quite get there in the other panels.

And it's possible that section was the largest "panel' ie greatest span between bulkheads and frames - weakest point.

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Just now, DickDastardly said:

There probably is, and a large area of boat will need to be replaced.  The popped panel was at "Ground Zero" and the loads went over breaking point there while they didn't quite get there in the other panels.

Your metaphor of "Ground Zero" is a good one.  In my opinion it is feasible that all the energy was channelled towards that area rather than just the "water pressure."  The foil foot plant on the water surface would have generated considerable forces that would have travelled and the panel ended up being the focal point.  The cause not just being the hull hitting the water!

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

The skin just keeps the water out.  The structure is to link the foil and rig forces.  

Unless you know something that most of us don't know, you're not correct. The skin is an integral part of the structure.

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My take-aways from TH's interview:

  • The skin of the hull was designed to withstand more downwards force, but couldn't cope with landing effectively on it's side. This "guillotined" an area of the hull between the the internal structural members. It is not a "panel" in the full sense of the word.
  • The FCS is kaput. TH did not elaborate. They are transferring the FCS from Defiant.
  • The hull was completely checked using ultra sound during the night, so presumably they have a good idea of where problem areas are.
  • The wiring needs a complete remake. They have spares for all electronic equipment.
  • The closed hydraulics system is OK.

TH sounds cautiously optimist about making it to the finals.

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2 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

My take-aways from TH's interview:

  • The skin of the hull was designed to withstand more downwards force, but couldn't cope with landing effectively on it's side. This "guillotined" an area of the hull between the the internal structural members. It is not a "panel" in the full sense of the word.
  • The FCS is kaput. TH did not elaborate. They are transferring the FCS from Defiant.
  • The hull was completely checked using ultra sound during the night, so presumably they have a good idea of where problem areas are.
  • The wiring needs a complete remake. They have spares for all electronic equipment.
  • The closed hydraulics system is OK.

TH sounds cautiously optimist about making it to the finals.

So they're out of the round robins? That just leaves two races between INEOS and LR, so one day's racing out of 3.

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I need to finish watching the press conference later this eve.  But its a bit brutal to just put Terry up there solo on his office chair. Considering the lack is sleep he's likely dealing with, never mind the stress.  I thought he's handling himself rather well.

Interesting that the portion of the hull that was broken by the force of water was seen floating behind Patriot just moments after the crash.   I would have expected that to be inside the boat, or taken awhile to be sucked out.  Unless it initially cracked and then was torn off and away from the boat, as opposed to one neat panel being punched out. 

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3 minutes ago, RobG said:

So they're out of the round robins? That just leaves two races between INEOS and LR, so one day's racing out of 3.

That's if they reschedule them to the same day.

Also means ironically that AM don't lose much (racing-wise) because the others only get 2 races that they don't. (And the others presumably have to trot out and complete a couple of legs to win the AM no-shows... not that either need to worry about those once INEOS gets win 5 anyway).

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26 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

So I watched the presser and must admit I'm still none the wiser as to how exactly Patriot got a giant fucking hole.

These pressers remind of the covid ones, where the 'journos' would sooner say something witty about pizzas than ask how the hole got there.

TH was quite clear about it. A section of the hull, framed by structural components, was "guillotined" [TH's words]. It was a "panel" only in the sense that it was an area surrounded by frames etc.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't get the guillotine metaphor.

Think of a hydraulic press that "punches" out shapes in a sheet of material like steel.

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7 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

So what is the deal or no deal with the runner? Not eased, never eased, failed, or....?

Sounds like the runner set up has an ease preset which wasn't sufficient in length or run to stop the mid mainsail battens from getting arrested.

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