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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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45 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

how many foiling championships does TH have under his belt?  I haven’t updated myself. 
 

 

As far as I know people other than foilers can spot a gust.

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2 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Those god damn seagulls have been playing havoc with this forum for months now!

True, I'm surprised that they haven't been accused of being responsible for the AM capsize yet. Lets face it a well timed shit from a seagull hitting your face at 40kts might distract you a bit, and Deano was only wearing goggles rather than a full visor

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

True, I'm surprised that they haven't been accused of being responsible for the AM capsize yet. Lets face it a well timed shit from a seagull hitting your face at 40kts might distract you a bit, and Deano was only wearing goggles rather than a full visor

You've got to ask yourself, how many moth worlds has that seagull won?! It's got no fucking place in the America's Cup.

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7 hours ago, Neverwas said:

1477720948_ScreenShot2021-01-18at10_27_59.thumb.png.17504eb6c4f6fbde5ae3bda2e83c7230.pngIs that something popping through the hull? Thats on the way down

Flap from the port foil - is missing in the photos of the boat on the dock in the cradle, the others seem to be there. If I'm right then its getting almost all the weight of the boat exerted upon it at an un-designed-for angle.

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1 minute ago, Ex-yachtie said:

You've got to ask yourself, how many moth worlds has that seagull won?! It's got no fucking place in the America's Cup.

sod that. If he hit Deano in the face with a 40kt crossing speed, give him a job as a sniper 

 

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

The helmsmen responds to the information coming in. Spotting that gust should have been THs job. Goody gave good info but it was not definitive. Up until that capsize AM was flying a good 4 knots faster than prada. DB had the boat going fast. Your problem is TH being skipper and grinding. It is a dumb set up and will solve many of the problems. 

Competence is one point but when you listen to LR communications Jimmy is the boss and is very clear with what he will do, on AM I still wonder who decides and for what.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The fuck does “first to do it” have to do with performance? Goodie is one of the most talented 3 foiling helmsman on earth yet the aged guy who has never won a foiling event as a helmsman is driving. 

should a hired Bora... ;)

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

how many foiling championships does TH have under his belt?  I haven’t updated myself. 
 

 

same number as Ben. Grant, Max..based on the inclusion of TH you are going for skipper role suitability? 

by some weird logic you should only drive an AC boat if you have won a foiling championship*

 

 

*moth only or at a push A class ;)

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

The helmsmen responds to the information coming in. Spotting that gust should have been THs job. Goody gave good info but it was not definitive. Up until that capsize AM was flying a good 4 knots faster than prada. DB had the boat going fast. Your problem is TH being skipper and grinding. It is a dumb set up and will solve many of the problems. 

I can't think of another boat with a full crew and any of the brain trust grinding.  To be honest I assumed they either have a design issue and need all the power they can get or it was a way to quietly put TH in a box so was on board but had limited decision making... it just seems weird.

 

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Competence is one point but when you listen to LR communications Jimmy is the boss and is very clear with what he will do, on AM I still wonder who decides and for what.

I have listened to INEOS using the back camera and a bit of AM from the last race. Very good on INEOS but quiet on AM. I did read that THs coms were down but only with the outside world. Inter boat coms was fine. I just get the feeling that it is a bit quiet on AM. If TH is looking down all the time while grinding it must have an effect. If i was on board and with what scanty info I have, I would make Goody tactician, keep DB on the wheel and replace TH with someone else and let TH organise from ashore. I would give DB the final say but if he overrides Goody to much I would kick DB off the boat and bring in the reserve helmsman. BA can override GS but he very rarely does. BA seems to understand that GS with time to look around the course has the big picture in more detail than BA has. The other thing is that BA is looking all around as well. Driving INEOS seems to require less driving skills which means he can think more about the info from GS. It maybe because (unless I am mistaken ) INEOS has a lee side and windward side controller doing the flaps and flying if you know what i mean. It is why their boat flies so smoothly.  I mean INEOS improvement in 3 weeks is spectacular.  One of the crew said and i heard it somewhere on one of the blogs reckoned that if INEOS is equal to every other competitors boat  they know they would win with GS and BA driving it. High praise. They are that confident in the pairing. I am beginning to feel it as well. The Kiwis are still going to be superb in the final.

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4 minutes ago, tDot said:

I can't think of another boat with a full crew and any of the brain trust grinding.  To be honest I assumed they either have a design issue and need all the power they can get or it was a way to quietly put TH in a box so was on board but had limited decision making... it just seems weird.

 

Someone correct me if i am wrong but INEOS has 6 grinders and 5 driving it. I think that is unique amongst all the teams. I wonder if Team Middle East will look at INEOS and change as well.  Whatever INEOS has done it seems that 6 grinders are enough but boy do they have to grind all the time. I agree the brains need time to look and assess. This AC 75 thing is about 30% match making and the rest is fastest way round the cse. I like how INEOS manage their races.  I think the AC 75 is closer to dinghy sailing than to big yacht racing. A lot of the time INEOS are looking up the course. They dont tend to follow the opposition much. They decide on the quickest way up the course and then try to stop the other team using their route up the course. I think they have got the balance perfect.  I thought some of their success was down to winning the starts but they have lost a couple of starts now and have still won by just sailing better.  I think the difference between Prada and INEOS is not the boats but the sailors on each boat at the moment. I am not sure what to make of AM yet. Having Goody on board for AM is a plus. I think he needs to be elevated more.

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2 minutes ago, dullers said:

Someone correct me if i am wrong but INEOS has 6 grinders and 5 driving it. I think that is unique amongst all the teams. I wonder if Team Middle East will look at INEOS and change as well.  Whatever INEOS has done it seems that 6 grinders are enough but boy do they have to grind all the time. I agree the brains need time to look and assess. This AC 75 thing is about 30% match making and the rest is fastest way round the cse. I like how INEOS manage their races.  I think the AC 75 is closer to dinghy sailing than to big yacht racing. A lot of the time INEOS are looking up the course. They dont tend to follow the opposition much. They decide on the quickest way up the course and then try to stop the other team using their route up the course. I think they have got the balance perfect.  I thought some of their success was down to winning the starts but they have lost a couple of starts now and have still won by just sailing better.  I think the difference between Prada and INEOS is not the boats but the sailors on each boat at the moment. I am not sure what to make of AM yet. Having Goody on board for AM is a plus. I think he needs to be elevated more.

Great video here from @Mozzy Sails, if you haven’t already seen it  compares AM and IUK

 

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

Someone correct me if i am wrong ... Team Middle East 

Seeing as you asked, you have a spelling mistake. It is Emirates Team New Zealand, or Team NZ for short.

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Kinda stating the obvious here, but grinding is physically demanding and fatiguing.  How the heck can Hutch possibly have all his faculties intact, whilst being fatigured?!  Don't hand me that BS that these are the best sailors on the planet, etc.  Fatigue affects any and everyone.  I agree with either Hutch coming off the pedestals and being the tactician full time, or make Goodie tactician or make Goodie the driver.

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10 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Great video here from @Mozzy Sails, if you haven’t already seen it  compares AM and IUK

 

Thanks Ex Yachty that was very informative. 

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8 minutes ago, dullers said:

I have listened to INEOS using the back camera and a bit of AM from the last race. Very good on INEOS but quiet on AM. I did read that THs coms were down but only with the outside world. Inter boat coms was fine. I just get the feeling that it is a bit quiet on AM. If TH is looking down all the time while grinding it must have an effect. If i was on board and with what scanty info I have, I would make Goody tactician, keep DB on the wheel and replace TH with someone else and let TH organise from ashore. I would give DB the final say but if he overrides Goody to much I would kick DB off the boat and bring in the reserve helmsman. BA can override GS but he very rarely does. BA seems to understand that GS with time to look around the course has the big picture in more detail than BA has. The other thing is that BA is looking all around as well. Driving INEOS seems to require less driving skills which means he can think more about the info from GS. It maybe because (unless I am mistaken ) INEOS has a lee side and windward side controller doing the flaps and flying if you know what i mean. It is why their boat flies so smoothly.  I mean INEOS improvement in 3 weeks is spectacular.  One of the crew said and i heard it somewhere on one of the blogs reckoned that if INEOS is equal to every other competitors boat  they know they would win with GS and BA driving it. High praise. They are that confident in the pairing. I am beginning to feel it as well. The Kiwis are still going to be superb in the final.

Agreed that Giles and Ben are a very well matched team.   Ben makes final call but mostly they are so much in synch it is hard to tell. I hear Ben saying he sees more pressure on left and Giles saying copy, we'll tack in 5 boat lengths....almost as if Ben is spotter for Giles rather than vice versa.  It is how synchronized they are that gives them an edge that will excel if the boat is fast.

Burling and Ashby and Tuke are also well synchronized and Burling is an enormous talent in his own right.

AM does not have the same number of giants of talent on board. Goodison is probably their strongest talent and is a talent giant but less convinced that DN and TH are in their prime.. Speaking to friends who have sailed with Goody, they say his tactical sense is among the very very best in the world. However put Goody , Ainslie and Burling in 3 identical boats, Ainslie and Burling would be where the money is placed. If the boat was a foiling dinghy then Burling would probably be the favorite. Add a tactician to the team and 3 identical boats then Ainslie/Scott might tip the balance back to Ainslie. Add a strong boat and Goody could be right up there.  Magic had a strong boat but the sheeer team raw talent is not in same league as ineos and ETNZ, and they are not harnessing the talent to its best ability.

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3 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Now that the battery theory has been dispelled, any theories on what the big "bang" noise is on the video about a half-second after the boat crashes down?

INEOS lunch box.

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2 minutes ago, Ripclaw said:

Hutch coming off the pedestals and being the tactician full time

I'm also of the opinion that's the change they have to make.  Deano's driving is fine, but the decision-making on the boat is cluttered, and really how could it be otherwise with the "tactician" heads-down on handles and stuck with a limited view of the racecourse.

Pulling him off the pedestal seems like the easiest and fastest way to solve that problem.

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8 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Now that the battery theory has been dispelled, any theories on what the big "bang" noise is on the video about a half-second after the boat crashes down?

Hearts sinking to the floor?

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9 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Seeing as you asked, you have a spelling mistake. It is Emirates Team New Zealand, or Team NZ for short.

Emirates Team New Zealand takes too long to write out and N and Z are to far apart on my keyboard to span. With China on board you may become "Team Take Away". I get where you are coming from and in future if I am talking to you I will use the correct names.

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42 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

same number as Ben. Grant, Max..based on the inclusion of TH you are going for skipper role suitability? 

by some weird logic you should only drive an AC boat if you have won a foiling championship*

 

 

*moth only or at a push A class ;)

I’m not disparaging any of their bona fides at winning sailboat races. I merely point out my longtime mantra when forecasting future performance: its best indicator is past performance.  Luna Rossa selected their “skipper” and unique driver setup for branding and political reasons. Magic, Ineos for trust and ego reasons. I know which team my money is on, though I’d be equally happy for ineos or NZ to win it. 

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16 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Might be all a moot point now!

He certainly was elevated higher than most on Sunday!

I think they will be back soon but I agree with you in that will they think about the after guard stuff in their down time? You must admit Goody did try to warn about the possible elevation!

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I’m not disparaging any of their bona fides at winning sailboat races. I merely point out my longtime mantra when forecasting future performance: its best indicator is past performance.  Luna Rossa selected their “skipper” and unique driver setup for branding and political reasons. Magic, Ineos for trust and ego reasons. I know which team my money is on, though I’d be equally happy for ineos or NZ to win it. 

I dont know enough about the Kiwis to really comment but whatever reason you have for INEOS it seems to be working for them. BA and GS have done a load of stuff together. If it was not about ego what other pairing could you have that beats the INEOS one?

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15 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Agreed that Giles and Ben are a very well matched team.   Ben makes final call but mostly they are so much in synch it is hard to tell. I hear Ben saying he sees more pressure on left and Giles saying copy, we'll tack in 5 boat lengths....almost as if Ben is spotter for Giles rather than vice versa.  It is how synchronized they are that gives them an edge that will excel if the boat is fast.

Burling and Ashby and Tuke are also well synchronized and Burling is an enormous talent in his own right.

AM does not have the same number of giants of talent on board. Goodison is probably their strongest talent and is a talent giant but less convinced that DN and TH are in their prime.. Speaking to friends who have sailed with Goody, they say his tactical sense is among the very very best in the world. However put Goody , Ainslie and Burling in 3 identical boats, Ainslie and Burling would be where the money is placed. If the boat was a foiling dinghy then Burling would probably be the favorite. Add a tactician to the team and 3 identical boats then Ainslie/Scott might tip the balance back to Ainslie. Add a strong boat and Goody could be right up there.  Magic had a strong boat but the sheeer team raw talent is not in same league as ineos and ETNZ, and they are not harnessing the talent to its best ability.

Good points. I need to look up more info on the Kiwi team as they are an unknown to me.(Of course I have heard of them). It is just that in the present cup cycle I can only listen in on the challengers.

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EYESAILOR  "Agreed that Giles and Ben are a very well matched team.   Ben makes final call but mostly they are so much in synch it is hard to tell. I hear Ben saying he sees more pressure on left and Giles saying copy, we'll tack in 5 boat lengths....almost as if Ben is spotter for Giles rather than vice versa.  It is how synchronized they are that gives them an edge that will excel if the boat is fast."

Very well put.

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19 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I’m not disparaging any of their bona fides at winning sailboat races. I merely point out my longtime mantra when forecasting future performance: its best indicator is past performance.  Luna Rossa selected their “skipper” and unique driver setup for branding and political reasons. Magic, Ineos for trust and ego reasons. I know which team my money is on, though I’d be equally happy for ineos or NZ to win it. 

It is interesting how different each set up is

 

LR  :  Dual Helms. No dedicated tactician. Skipper onshore

AM:  Dedicated Helm . Team leader/skipper/ team manager is on board as tactician and grinder. 

Ineos :  Dedicated helm + Dedicated Tactician.  Team Leader is helm

ETNZ :  Dedicated helm + Dedicated Tactician.  Team leader is ashore.

Looked at irrespective of talent and experience the AM structure is the most confusing. ETNZ is the cleanest. ETNZ learnt from San Fran. The team leader stays ashore and picks the best talent he has access to for each role

In terms of helming talent I would score Ineos and ETNZ as having the higher raw talent but these are not single handed boats so the whole team package is key.

TH has a lot on his plate each and every day. Maybe he is a great tactician but he has too many other roles as well.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Neverwas said:

Has anyone the expertise to measure the deflection in the foil arm as it hit down? is that a lot further aft than normal? Possible this defection load on the arm popped the skin in front of the foil arm off the structure and then the impact and the water pushed it back against the structure caused the Guillotine effect TH talked about?

 

Screen Shot 2021-01-18 at 12.42.37.png

That seems like it is just the angles. That board is down, and the boat is tilted away from the camera a bit.

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Ok for simplicity. If TH is grinding and looking down sometimes he only has to miss one puff on the water to put his boat 200ms behind. INEOS try not to miss any as they realise that in this class of boat it is puffs that gives you the lead, not match racing. INEOS has a better relationship with the puffs than AM does. INEOS tend to focus very little on the opposition compared to the other 2 boats with AM being the least puff orientated. 

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9 minutes ago, dullers said:

Good points. I need to look up more info on the Kiwi team as they are an unknown to me.(Of course I have heard of them). It is just that in the present cup cycle I can only listen in on the challengers.

Burling, Tuke and Ashby with Josh Junior on assist.

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1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said:

It is interesting how different each set up is

Ineos :  Dedicated helm + Dedicated Tactician.  Team Leader is helm

Is BA best described as team leader or (off the water) as team figurehead/spokesman/fund-raiser? People assume the first, I'm not so sure. The team has a CEO, it isn't BA.

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

Ok for simplicity. If TH is grinding and looking down sometimes he only has to miss one puff on the water to put his boat 200ms behind. INEOS try not to miss any as they realise that in this class of boat it is puffs that gives you the lead, not match racing. INEOS has a better relationship with the puffs than AM does. INEOS tend to focus very little on the opposition compared to the other 2 boats with AM being the least puff orientated. 

Giles looks at the opposition quite a lot......but he doesnt bet against their moves until he sees a competitive advanatge. He will say for example, follow them around to left side of course , pressure or he will say split at gates. But you point is correct he is entirely focused on where the boat should be two tacks from now, he is not skating towards the puck, but skating towards where the puck will be,

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6 hours ago, Neverwas said:

Has anyone the expertise to measure the deflection in the foil arm as it hit down? is that a lot further aft than normal? Possible this defection load on the arm popped the skin in front of the foil arm off the structure and then the impact and the water pushed it back against the structure caused the Guillotine effect TH talked about?

 

Screen Shot 2021-01-18 at 12.42.37.png

That's the money shot for me.  If you go back a couple or three frames you will see the foil foot plant.  It starts to plane and then wham it digs in and is forced back plus the whole boat pivots on that point.  The kinetic energy must dissipate somewhere and in my opinion that focus point was where the "panel" popped.  That pop was "outwards" not inwards from the force of water on touchdown.

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6 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Will AM be able to get back in the game ??

Yes and be on the water earlier than we think.

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Just now, dogwatch said:

Is BA best described as team leader or (off the water) as team figurehead/spokesman/fund-raiser? People assume the first, I'm not so sure. The team has a CEO, it isn't BA.

Agreed he has CEO.  However Ben has a role beyond that of the driver. He is the team leader, allocates roles, has a lot of important decisions unrelated to tactics or driving . But he wisely hired a CEO and he doesnt have to do any fund raising.

I guess I was merely trying to distinguish his role from the other two dedicated helms; Burling and Barker. I think Burlings job is to drive. same with Barker.  Ainslie has some more jobs on top of that. I think he manages them well and delegates well but there seems to me that he has more to do beyond driving the boat than compared to Burling and Barker.  Alll three doubtless give lots of feedback and do lots to motivate the team etc......but Ainslie has a management/leadership role that the other two do not have.  Its a matter of degree.  Same with Hutch.

Its a slight difference. Clearly Ben does not let it impact his driving when on the water.

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6 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Is BA best described as team leader or (off the water) as team figurehead/spokesman/fund-raiser? People assume the first, I'm not so sure. The team has a CEO, it isn't BA.

Is it publicity? At the moment who is the worlds most famous sailor? If it is no BA he is close.

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

Yes and be on the water earlier than we think.

I don't doubt that they will be which is testament to the design of the boat.  But will they be able to drive it as hard?  Will there be in the back of their mind that the hull is compromised and their rudder and their foils and their mast?   

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Just now, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't doubt that they will be which is testament to the design of the boat.  But will they be able to drive it as hard?  Will there be in the back of their mind that the hull is compromised and their rudder and their foils and their mast?   

With millions of dollars on the line and each race (other than the semi-finals) meaning ABSOLUTELY NOTHING they won't risk it.
There is absolutely zero point in them racing this weekend other than to get much needed time on the water.  If there is a question about strength, they will stay in the shed.

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13 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't doubt that they will be which is testament to the design of the boat.  But will they be able to drive it as hard?  Will there be in the back of their mind that the hull is compromised and their rudder and their foils and their mast?   

I dont know much about carbon boats and repairs. My last boat was steel and when we repaired it(replaced a plate) I knew it was as good as it was on the day she was launched. We all understand steel. Carbon repairs I have no idea about as it is an exotic material for me. I presume all the main people involved would have some understanding of the repairs and will worry accordingly. Hopefully an anarchist versed in Carbon will enlighten us?

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3 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

For reference, the entire rudder can be compared using the logo on it, which appears to indicate that the stabilator is still low enough to assert control. Despite the angle, it is still roughly proportional.

You are not accounting enough for the angle of the rudder.  As the boat leans over the angle of the rudder is going from vertical to horizontal - it would lose its effectiveness very quickly.

If you listen to the audio Barker says quite calmly - "I've lost the rudder".  You can hear that clearly in the video from the on board stern camera.  I think it was before you have identified in your frame shots.

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16 minutes ago, dullers said:

Ok for simplicity. If TH is grinding and looking down sometimes he only has to miss one puff on the water to put his boat 200ms behind. INEOS try not to miss any as they realise that in this class of boat it is puffs that gives you the lead, not match racing. INEOS has a better relationship with the puffs than AM does. INEOS tend to focus very little on the opposition compared to the other 2 boats with AM being the least puff orientated. 

He did miss one and almost put his boat 100m below.

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9 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That's the money shot for me.  If you go back a couple or three frames you will see the foil foot plant.  It starts to plane and then wham it digs in and is forced back plus the whole boat pivots on that point.  The kinetic energy must dissipate somewhere and in my opinion that focus point was where the "panel" popped.  That pop was "outwards" not inwards from the force of water on touchdown.

That pic showing a boat that isn’t about to capsize ;-) 

 

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Just now, Varan said:

He did miss one and almost put his boat 100m below.

I wish I had thought of that. It is a great illustration.

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15 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Giles looks at the opposition quite a lot......but he doesnt bet against their moves until he sees a competitive advanatge. He will say for example, follow them around to left side of course , pressure or he will say split at gates. But you point is correct he is entirely focused on where the boat should be two tacks from now, he is not skating towards the puck, but skating towards where the puck will be,

Giles always takes his time to get around the back of the boat. He runs to the back of the main and then stops for a bit. In spite of the windage his body provides it seems to pay dividends. Both he BA and the boat controllers sit very high up. They must have worked out that the extra windage caused by them is offset by the benefits.  Nice observation about the puck...You are good at painting the pictures with your word craft.

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1 hour ago, Gritpipe said:

Flap from the port foil - is missing in the photos of the boat on the dock in the cradle, the others seem to be there. If I'm right then its getting almost all the weight of the boat exerted upon it at an un-designed-for angle.

Is this true for sure? 
 

The possibility that the port foil (and FCS structure supporting it) got f’d by a severely strong and badly angled torque has me wondering how safe that boat will ever get. Yikes 

edit: had the same thought about how catastrophic it might been to TR, had PB hit that top mark in the ACWS. 

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Just now, sosoomii said:

Percy and Slingsby?  Rashley & Styles? 

We are living in a golden age of British sailing!

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Agreed that Giles and Ben are a very well matched team.   Ben makes final call but mostly they are so much in synch it is hard to tell. I hear Ben saying he sees more pressure on left and Giles saying copy, we'll tack in 5 boat lengths....almost as if Ben is spotter for Giles rather than vice versa.  It is how synchronized they are that gives them an edge that will excel if the boat is fast.

Burling and Ashby and Tuke are also well synchronized and Burling is an enormous talent in his own right.

AM does not have the same number of giants of talent on board. Goodison is probably their strongest talent and is a talent giant but less convinced that DN and TH are in their prime.. Speaking to friends who have sailed with Goody, they say his tactical sense is among the very very best in the world. However put Goody , Ainslie and Burling in 3 identical boats, Ainslie and Burling would be where the money is placed. If the boat was a foiling dinghy then Burling would probably be the favorite. Add a tactician to the team and 3 identical boats then Ainslie/Scott might tip the balance back to Ainslie. Add a strong boat and Goody could be right up there.  Magic had a strong boat but the sheeer team raw talent is not in same league as ineos and ETNZ, and they are not harnessing the talent to its best ability.

Burling, Tuke and Ashby do line up on the same foiling boat - A Class Cats.   A boat that happens to bronco exactly like AM did.  The winner when those 3 line-up is Ashby, but all 3 are world-class.  Other teams afterguard would have trouble getting to the starting line in over 15 knots.

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10 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Still below seems to show a tubular framework to support the loads, covered by a relatively thin outside shell

Sigh. That single strut is probably an isolated foil connection mount diagonal brace, leading to a transverse frame. It is not part of some mythical tubular space frame.

Designers long ago realized that monocoques are lighter than an external skin surrounding a space frame. Well Ron Holland seemed to take some time to come around. For boats, for race cars, for aircraft. The outer skin is a primary part of the structure. If you have a space frame carrying all the loads and the skin is "just to keep out the water" the skin is really parasitic weight. 

Space frames were also easier to analyse. Everything was in compression or tension. With modern FEA tools we can understand loads a lot better.

If you are designing a boat, you start with a hull shape. Now if it had zero internal framing it would require a very thick hull thickness (see Bent Splain ideas). So you decide you will fit some sort of internal structure to support the hull skin.

Typically on a boat you use bulkheads or ring frames in the transverse direction and some form of long'l structure (stringers/frames whatever you call them) as well. This breaks the hull skin into panels, often rectangular. Sometimes the local loads are diagonal - in this case they are trying to keep the foil control arm pivot supported both transversely and long'ly. This means they used a diagonal strut down to the hull framing (think of something tripod like I would guess).  In a boat this size there are global loads (tending to deform the whole structure such as forestay, mast support, rudder and foil arms. There are also local loads (pressure on hull panels)

In this case the slam load pressure exceeded the strength of the panel (stop putting panel in quotes please) and it failed. Yes, the panel was supported by framing internally. But not a framework or space frame.  

In most cases engineers worry about the stresses in the middle of a supported panel, where they tend to be higher (higher deflection). Typically they don't worry too much about that sort of guillotine effect at the edges of the supported panel. At least I don't. Also - slam loads tend to be very concentrated in a small patch of hull as the boat re-enters the water. The boat slows down fast and the pressure dissipates. A 1-2m patch of peak loading is sort of normal. So that might be why the boat's skin didn't (visibly) get damaged in the next panel over.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Zonker said:

In most cases engineers worry about the stresses in the middle of a supported panel, where they tend to be higher (higher deflection). Typically they don't worry too much about that sort of guillotine effect at the edges of the supported panel. At least I don't. Also - slam loads tend to be very concentrated in a small patch of hull as the boat re-enters the water. The boat slows down fast and the pressure dissipates. A 1-2m patch of peak loading is sort of normal. So that might be why the boat's skin didn't (visibly) get damaged in the next panel over.

Could the clearly evident extreme forces on the foil and foil arm be transferred to a focal point on the hull - distorting that panel outwards (a localised bulge) stressing and weakening it to the point where the impact with the water sheared it off?

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

I have listened to INEOS using the back camera and a bit of AM from the last race. Very good on INEOS but quiet on AM. I did read that THs coms were down but only with the outside world. Inter boat coms was fine. I just get the feeling that it is a bit quiet on AM. If TH is looking down all the time while grinding it must have an effect. If i was on board and with what scanty info I have, I would make Goody tactician, keep DB on the wheel and replace TH with someone else and let TH organise from ashore. I would give DB the final say but if he overrides Goody to much I would kick DB off the boat and bring in the reserve helmsman. BA can override GS but he very rarely does. BA seems to understand that GS with time to look around the course has the big picture in more detail than BA has. The other thing is that BA is looking all around as well. Driving INEOS seems to require less driving skills which means he can think more about the info from GS. It maybe because (unless I am mistaken ) INEOS has a lee side and windward side controller doing the flaps and flying if you know what i mean. It is why their boat flies so smoothly.  I mean INEOS improvement in 3 weeks is spectacular.  One of the crew said and i heard it somewhere on one of the blogs reckoned that if INEOS is equal to every other competitors boat  they know they would win with GS and BA driving it. High praise. They are that confident in the pairing. I am beginning to feel it as well. The Kiwis are still going to be superb in the final.

I agree with pretty much everything.

I have no doubt that DB is one of the top racer and excellent at the helm, however there has to be a leader on the boat, like Jimmy or Ben are  on their boat, yes Dean has to be able to override Goody, but can he be the leader the boat needs ?

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44 minutes ago, dullers said:

Carbon repairs I have no idea about as it is an exotic material for me. I presume all the main people involved would have some understanding of the repairs and will worry accordingly. Hopefully an anarchist versed in Carbon will enlighten us?

So long as you understand exactly what's damaged, you can generally repair it to be as strong as it was originally, and with the same stiffness characteristics and negligible weight increase; you can also increase the stiffness or strength if required (generally at a weight penalty). The repair may or may not be cost effective (obviously a very minor consideration here). You can also trade off repair time against quality (I suspect that won't be done here, except that they may not put much effort into the paint job).

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Great idea! Then just hit the "Mirror" button on the CAD workstation to make the opposite side...

Actually if you don't have hull shape data, you can make closely spaced templates from the good side. Then just flip the order to create the shape for the bad side.

But in this case you have excellent CAD shape of the hull. So you CNC yourself a new mold. I'd also want a laser scan of the existing hull to see how closely the hull matches the design shape you have on your computer.

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10 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Could the clearly evident extreme forces on the foil and foil arm be transferred to a focal point on the hull - distorting that panel outwards (a localised bulge) stressing and weakening it to the point where the impact with the water sheared it off?

Yes - but the panel failure looks like it is too far away from the supports for the foil arm. If your idea was correct you'd expect to see it fail just fwd of the arm framing only (like a crack), but not at the front or sides of the panel. 

In this case we didn't get the core shear failure that is typical of slamming. We got the skins failing. So a very sharp transition between the panel and the internal framing and very thin skins. They may have found a failure mode that isn't typically well known or experienced :)

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25 minutes ago, cbulger said:

Burling, Tuke and Ashby do line up on the same foiling boat - A Class Cats.   A boat that happens to bronco exactly like AM did.  The winner when those 3 line-up is Ashby, but all 3 are world-class.  Other teams afterguard would have trouble getting to the starting line in over 15 knots.

And all three are together on one boat.  Ashby has tons of A cat experience so he carries the edge there. 

Ainslie and Scott have tons of talent as well while admittedly not the same origins in foiling smaller boats. 

I feel the other two teams just havent got quite the same depth of bench strength in the afterguard.

On American Magic, Terry has been an amazing sailor in J24s and then TP52 etc, but he was never an Olympic level sailor.  Dean, was recognized by Russell Coutts as a great talent and he is but the reality is that he was replaced by Burling in the new age of foiling boats.  They are incredible sailors both of them but I question whether they are as good as the ETNZ and Ineos talent.  Ben won the gold medal in the Finn class in 2004 . Dean finished 13th in the same event.  Head to head in one design, Ben was in a different league.

 

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2 hours ago, Gritpipe said:

Flap from the port foil - is missing in the photos of the boat on the dock in the cradle, the others seem to be there. If I'm right then its getting almost all the weight of the boat exerted upon it at an un-designed-for angle.

The things popping through the bottom of the boat in that shot have to be the cockpit drains opening on impact. 

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3 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Yes - but the panel failure looks like it is too far away from the supports for the foil arm. If your idea was correct you'd expect to see it fail just fwd of the arm framing only (like a crack), but not at the front or sides of the panel. 

But it isn't that far away when you consider the size of the foil as a lever.  The force on that lever is towards the stern.  So on the stern side of the foil arm the force is inwards on the bow side it is outwards.  I liken it to pulling the leg off a turkey - you depress the turkey's body in the direction of the pull but it rips outwards in the other direction. Assuming no knife or guillotine is involved.

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45 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Note that the panel failed in shear, in which carbon is only slightly better than fiberglass 

Yep it is really the core that has shear strength in a flat panel. 

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Am pretty concerned about if they will ever get ‘right’ but: Trying to imagine-up the best possible scenario for AM here: 

They don’t have to measure in a freeze of their configuration this week. And don’t have to race this week. And with the coming shed time, it’s possible that instead of ‘putting her back the way she was’ that they could actually load up on systems improvements since they will be up to their elbows doing replacements anyway? 

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Hopefully this isn't a re-post (I did have a quick scan) : this latest video on America Magic's FB page (Episode 2) shows some new angles/footage of the carnage after the capsize. Hopefully this link will work - although am not that confident. 

https://www.facebook.com/NYYCAmericanMagic/videos/1621038081419950

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

same number as Ben. Grant, Max..based on the inclusion of TH you are going for skipper role suitability? 

by some weird logic you should only drive an AC boat if you have won a foiling championship*

 

 

*moth only or at a push A class ;)

Though Ben did win sailgp which is probably closer.

And there a few people with stronger records in foiling dinghies than any of the helms who aren't even at the event

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14 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I agree with pretty much everything.

I have no doubt that DB is one of the top racer and excellent at the helm, however there has to be a leader on the boat, like Jimmy or Ben are  on their boat, yes Dean has to be able to override Goody, but can he be the leader the boat needs ?

I think the psychological compatibility is important.  It seems very clear that both Ben and Jimmy are in charge. Eyesore put it very well when he said that GS and BA were in unison. If Giles says something it just compliments what Ben was thinking. So 99 times out of a hundred they were both thinking the same thing. GS knows Ben has the final say but Ben very rarely has the final say if you get my gist. Sort of Torvill and Dean. I think Ben knows he is getting great information from Giles so does not have to spend much time thinking about it.  The other thing is there use of the language to communicate. It is very brief but concentrated.  No grey conversations. The info is black and white.  I know Jimmy is good but I have not followed the after guard routine with them as it is not the boat i support.  When Goody on AM was hinting that the manoeuvre pre the capsize was not on he stated it in away that was not conclusive. The message was there but the communication was poor.  I think if Giles was advising Dean it may have come out more concise. Maybe along the lines  of "We have a 500m lead we should use the right exit. " I suspect Ben would have said "copy".  ( I also think they would have spotted the gust) (Heads up approach)

Another thing that caught my ear is the countdown to a manoeuvre.  INEOS counts down form 3. The others from 5.(might be my imagination)  I think that tells us that INEOS are on top of their manoeuvres. INEOS do by far the best roundings of any challenger.  BA has confidence in the crew they will be ready. A far cry as to how they were going 3 weeks ago. Yet even 3 weeks ago when things were going bad there seemed to be no strain between the team on the boat. I think they have gelled well.  The accusations made that Ben was not a suitable team player seem unhinged now.  I will add that in true British tradition we could lose the next 10 wickets in 10 balls.

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1 hour ago, cbulger said:

Burling, Tuke and Ashby do line up on the same foiling boat - A Class Cats.   A boat that happens to bronco exactly like AM did.  The winner when those 3 line-up is Ashby, but all 3 are world-class.  Other teams afterguard would have trouble getting to the starting line in over 15 knots.

Both Prada and INEOS did fine in the strong winds in the abandoned race. They were getting round the cse no problems. both Prada and INEOS are foiling boats. It was over 15 knots.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Competence is one point but when you listen to LR communications Jimmy is the boss and is very clear with what he will do, on AM I still wonder who decides and for what.

The AM comms ARE very chaotic with no clear plan or hierarchy. They need to work on that. It’s critical to state what you’re going to do, how your going to do it, and why - with time for feedback. And no, they’re not going too fast. If I can do it in a jet formation going 500 knots, they can do it in a boat going 40 knots. It’s not easy, but it’s not THAT hard, either. If they can’t think ahead of a 40 knot boat, they’re in the wrong game. Goodison can obviously do it.

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34 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Am pretty concerned about if they will ever get ‘right’ but: Trying to imagine-up the best possible scenario for AM here: 

They don’t have to measure in a freeze of their configuration this week. And don’t have to race this week. And with the coming shed time, it’s possible that instead of ‘putting her back the way she was’ that they could actually load up on systems improvements since they will be up to their elbows doing replacements anyway? 

I am expecting to see their third set of foils when it comes out of the shed again.

They've got nothing to lose at this point by piling on whatever gear they have been holding back. They had sailors from all the other teams crawling all over their boat, I'm sure they took note of a feature or two.

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1 minute ago, mookiesurfs said:

The AM comms ARE very chaotic with no clear plan or hierarchy. They need to work on that. It’s critical to state what you’re going to do, how your going to do it, and why - with time for feedback. And no, they’re not going too fast. If I can do it in a jet formation going 500 knots, they can do it in a boat going 40 knots. It’s not THAT hard. If they can’t think ahead of a 40 knot boat, they’re in the wrong game. Goodison can obviously do it.

What I heard on their comms was Dean trying to defer to Terry, but then not getting an answer and making the call at the last minute.

If Terry is going to be the one who decides, he has to be available to make those decisions at all times and instantaneously. He can't have his head in the boat grinding.

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21 minutes ago, dullers said:

Both Prada and INEOS did fine in the strong winds in the abandoned race. They were getting round the cse no problems. both Prada and INEOS are foiling boats. It was over 15 knots.

The A-Cat is a one man foiling catamaran and the development class that has been the proving/training ground for great foiling sailors - along with the Moth.  The comment about getting to the starting line referred to the A class.  My point is that sailing foilers is different, experience and proven exceptional skill helps.  If everyone in your afterguard is a world class foiling sailor - you have a better chance of winning a foiling regatta.

Pretty simple point.

Most great foiling sailors are young -  they are the future but they dont have the relationships with the billionaires who like to play in the AC.  So the syndicates that are run by billionaires often stick with the sailors they know from the keel boat world.   The syndicate that is run by a national org - NZ - gets the best foiling sailors they can.  Of course, UK is a hybrid - billionaire plus a strong national org.

Sometimes you can win a gun fight with a really good knife - but its not generally the best approach.

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1 hour ago, Dave S said:

So long as you understand exactly what's damaged, you can generally repair it to be as strong as it was originally, and with the same stiffness characteristics and negligible weight increase; you can also increase the stiffness or strength if required (generally at a weight penalty). The repair may or may not be cost effective (obviously a very minor consideration here). You can also trade off repair time against quality (I suspect that won't be done here, except that they may not put much effort into the paint job).

Thanks for that. Do you know enough to estimate the repair of that panel time wise? I think TH said that repairing the boat would be quick, it was the internal electrics and systems that would take time.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Actually if you don't have hull shape data, you can make closely spaced templates from the good side. Then just flip the order to create the shape for the bad side.

But in this case you have excellent CAD shape of the hull. So you CNC yourself a new mold. I'd also want a laser scan of the existing hull to see how closely the hull matches the design shape you have on your computer.

Does it really have to be that perfect? If the hull is in the water ya got bigger problems than a little unfairness in the hull.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Status quo said:

Terry was clear no battery came out. But I ask you to have a think if every thing that you are told is true ? Wile I dont know the true answer , it would not be great PR for the cup if they at dumped a battery in the Gulf. What is more likly is the battery did brake lose and did punch out the hole but remained inside. Ive not  watched anything since the race but it seamed strange at the time that they were not able to lower the starbord foil to help right her. And then they opened the hatch up which makes me think they thought there might be an internal conection problem that was stoping the foil moving. No one in that posishion would chouse to open a sealled hatch when on there side unless they thought it was the best was to solve the problem. 

Of course I don’t believe everything I am told.  But Terry said they had both batteries and they had been removed from the boat.  You can believe anything you want, but that doesn’t mean it is true.  There is no reason for them to lie about what happened or if they lost a battery. 

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2 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Does it really have to be that perfect? If the hull is in the water ya got bigger problems than a little unfairness.

 

 

 

The hull has to match its declared IGS file within rule-state tolerances in order to be rule-legal. Most of these rule-controlled parts are shape-controlled via the IGS file. There is no shortage of precision data concerning shape.

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22 minutes ago, cbulger said:

The A-Cat is a one man foiling catamaran and the development class that has been the proving/training ground for great foiling sailors - along with the Moth.  The comment about getting to the starting line referred to the A class.  My point is that sailing foilers is different, experience and proven exceptional skill helps.  If everyone in your afterguard is a world class foiling sailor - you have a better chance of winning a foiling regatta.

Pretty simple point.

Most great foiling sailors are young -  they are the future but they dont have the relationships with the billionaires who like to play in the AC.  So the syndicates that are run by billionaires often stick with the sailors they know from the keel boat world.   The syndicate that is run by a national org - NZ - gets the best foiling sailors they can.  Of course, UK is a hybrid - billionaire plus a strong national org.

Sometimes you can win a gun fight with a really good knife - but its not generally the best approach.

I understand. I went down a different road to the one you meant me to go down. I think that the skill set is still well covered in these AC75s. Ben, Jimmy et al have all been on these foiling large boats for a fair while now.  You also have to have people who can handle a large crew as well. A skill set still in the developmental stage in their 20s. Burling being the exception. Was he a skipper or helmsman in 17?

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11 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Does it really have to be that perfect? 

Well you want the new part to match very closely so you don't have a bump. Bumps are slow. The people involved are at the top of their game and at that level, no bumpy allowed.

I was talking with a colleague who thought that the ring frame aft of the hole might have been very overloaded as the foil came back into the water. Could have contributed to the panel failure. I'm not so sure. 

Wonder if there is any internal structure damage too?

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