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1 hour ago, alphafb552 said:

Anyone else notice that Goodison was doing the countdown to the maneuvers instead of DB?

Seems like he has been demoted in the afterguard...

I think it is the opposite.

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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8 hours ago, starlyte said:

Something I did notice with AM - I have not seen with the other boats..

During some of the zoomed in shots from the side of AM, I noticed the foil arm bouncing while it was in the water.

Example:

 

its been pointed out a few times. the bit i found nice was the hydraulic noise followed by the foil arm raising up by one "notch".

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Americans are a funny bunch... blame it al on Barker!:D

From where I stand the boat isn't fast enough (designers to blame), the mainsail choice was wrong (sailmakers) and their way of communication definitely isn't up to standard (TH ??).  Also the boat seems very hard to control. Barker is just helming the thing. Even he cannot make a racehorse out of a (USA build)donkey. 

More embarrassing is that this team is in the top 2 budget wise and has been on the water the longest and they probably go home without a single race win.

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On 1/28/2021 at 11:27 AM, shebeen said:

Really impressive we have a race this weekend. It is not unthinkable that they beat Prada in the semis. It would probably require that the roles between TH, PG and DB are a bit more solidified, but they have had 10 days off water to dial that in theory.

They could be fast enough to shake off Ineos in the finals.

Who knows how 2 months off from racing has helped ETNZ.?

 

would be one crazy comeback, and some vocal commentators slating DB here would have some words to swallow.

Funny to read this now...

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Maybe it was simply AM sailing in different breeze when this happened in the ACWS/Xmas ditty, but weren't they able to sail noticeably lower and faster DW than other boats on several occasions? 

If it wasn't the wind and indeed was the boat, where did this advantage go?

Also, regarding TH's comment on the rudder being bent, then having it "straightened".........at this point, with the absolute shitload of money that was likely thrown at the boat getting it back in the water, would a new rudder break the bank? I myself have "straightened" many things - nails, screws, various suspension components, the occasional moto brake lever, etc- many metal parts where you mutter under your breath on your way out back to the vise in the shed, "Ok, everybody cross your fingers", but that is a universe and the GDP of a small island nation away from the inner workings of an AC team. Perhaps it was a matter of prioritizing actions and this was lower/lowest on the list, but I really can't see how, as the rudder, you know, steers the boat.......

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I suspect it's as simple as not having the tools / staff on site to build a new rudder, so there is more lead time in getting a replacement rather than a repair. Any of our resident foil watchers think that the old rudder off Defiant would work?

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32 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

I suspect it's as simple as not having the tools / staff on site to build a new rudder, so there is more lead time in getting a replacement rather than a repair. Any of our resident foil watchers think that the old rudder off Defiant would work?

Might be wrong but I think this is Patriot’s second rudder.

id guess the problem is more with the control system than the foil section itself. Curious what Terry said “bent”

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1 hour ago, underperformer said:

Americans are a funny bunch... blame it al on Barker!:D

From where I stand the boat isn't fast enough (designers to blame), the mainsail choice was wrong (sailmakers) and their way of communication definitely isn't up to standard (TH ??).  Also the boat seems very hard to control. Barker is just helming the thing. Even he cannot make a racehorse out of a (USA build)donkey. 

More embarrassing is that this team is in the top 2 budget wise and has been on the water the longest and they probably go home without a single race win.

Well that’s a hot take. Clearly it is not 100% on Barker, but the boat absolutely is fast enough to win races. They are clearly having control issues since the crash. Agreed on the sail choice too. Faster in heavy air straight line? Maybe, but what good is that if you can’t maneuver. It just doesn’t work in practicality.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

What’s the reasoning behind the step in the leach of AM main? I’d have thought if anything it should be a step out rather than in.

Maximising sail area and power in the lower half, minimising in top half to reduce heeling force and drag when twisted.

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42 minutes ago, blottodiablo74 said:

Maybe it was simply AM sailing in different breeze when this happened in the ACWS/Xmas ditty, but weren't they able to sail noticeably lower and faster DW than other boats on several occasions? 

If it wasn't the wind and indeed was the boat, where did this advantage go?

Also, regarding TH's comment on the rudder being bent, then having it "straightened".........at this point, with the absolute shitload of money that was likely thrown at the boat getting it back in the water, would a new rudder break the bank? I myself have "straightened" many things - nails, screws, various suspension components, the occasional moto brake lever, etc- many metal parts where you mutter under your breath on your way out back to the vise in the shed, "Ok, everybody cross your fingers", but that is a universe and the GDP of a small island nation away from the inner workings of an AC team. Perhaps it was a matter of prioritizing actions and this was lower/lowest on the list, but I really can't see how, as the rudder, you know, steers the boat.......

I’m guessing the rudder was either a prioritization issue or that they simply didn’t believe the damage to it was that bad. I don’t think anyone expected these guys to be 100% yesterday and they did should substantial speed at times, but they just didn’t seem like they had full control of the boat. 

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5 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

Concept seems to be effective but not practical 

Seems OK in theory, but perhaps they just aren't developing enough power in that lower section via camber etc, or for some reason they are struggling to balance the boat?

I did some rough measurements of LR's mainsail from overhead shots, and they are getting something like ~7.8% camber at the top of the Pirelli strip, and ~11.9% at the draft stripe above that.  Haven't looked at AM yet.

image.png.aa8eb41d337920259335904342f7acdc.png

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23 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

Well that’s a hot take. Clearly it is not 100% on Barker, but the boat absolutely is fast enough to win races. They are clearly having control issues since the crash. Agreed on the sail choice too. Faster in heavy air straight line? Maybe, but what good is that if you can’t maneuver. It just doesn’t work in practicality.

Classic American muscle car - pretty good in a straight line, just don't try going around a corner!

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22 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Maximising sail area and power in the lower half, minimising in top half to reduce heeling force and drag when twisted.

That doesn’t need a step though, that’s a standard requirement for nearly all rigs (yet nearly all rigs don’t look like that). 

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Amazing how a team that was so strong in the ACWS, has failed to fire in the PC. 

<cough> sandbagging <cough>

AM always looked like they were sailing their boat hard, and on the edge.  There's been a lot of commentary about LR having plenty up their sleeves.  AM didn't look good out there yesterday, but LR will have taken the handbrake off too. 

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AM exploited the way in which the mainsail is measured within the Rules, to achieve a sail that is lower than the minimum 135m2. Basically, there are measurement points on the leech, the "50%" and "75%" spots I think, and they have battens meet the leech at those points.

 

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8 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

We don't know.  It wasn't during a race.

OK.  Seems like rather a pointless "headline" number doesn't it.  Still, the AC75s are genuinely reaching 48-49 knots for periods on a course.

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41 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

OK.  Seems like rather a pointless "headline" number doesn't it.  Still, the AC75s are genuinely reaching 48-49 knots for periods on a course.

Not sure max speed is "pointless" - it does seem to be an indicator of instability. We see it happen as they hit beam reach during mark roundings and if that number hits high 40's or above, then that appears to be the dangerous cavitation point for rudders.  LRPP hit that point at 1st leeward gate and wiped out - AM seems to get stuck halfway thru bare-away, accelerate and then cavitate and crash.  Watch the speedo for coming excitement!

 

See GA's comments about speed limit on rudders approx. 4 mins in 

 

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35 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

OK.  Seems like rather a pointless "headline" number doesn't it.  Still, the AC75s are genuinely reaching 48-49 knots for periods on a course.

Particularly pointless because it's not what they're trying to achieve. If you have two very different boats, both being sailed in a way that optimises their respective VMGs, they're probably sailing different angles; what does it actually mean that one of them is or isn't travelling faster through the water than the other?

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It is funny how so many are now criticizing all of the features of AM after these races.  I Still think that AM has one if the best designs and they know what they are doing. 

I think that AM went into the race with the exact setup that they wanted for the conditions and fully expected to do better.  The commentators want to criticize the sail, but TH said that in the higher winds they get just as much power with less aero drag.  AM has been sailing with it for months and has the data and they have looked very stable using it in before.

I think the problems arise from a boat that was damaged much more than we all thought.  TH has said that they have had stability problems with the rudder in the training since the relaunch.  I know that I didn't tend to see it at first, but they have not been sailing on rails since they put it back on the water.  The boat typically gets more stable as they go faster, AM got squirrelly.  AM said that the rudder was bent in the crash and you can go back and see pictures of them sticking a Knife in the rudder indicating some de-lamination:

140154436_821072425116218_3974388967997786675_o.jpg.2344cb65949c152e5fa492d21955dd10.jpg

Depending upon how they fixed/replaced the rudder, it could cause some weakness that could give less control.  

The questions from the press said that it was even shakier in Dean's hands then before.  TH said that is based upon the speed when you develop some harmonics in the rudder (I do not notice that with the other teams) that causes it to shake.

Unfortunately, I do not think that AM has enough time to correct the problem and get competitive with LR.  It is a shame, they had a good boat and a good crew.

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58 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Seems OK in theory, but perhaps they just aren't developing enough power in that lower section via camber etc, or for some reason they are struggling to balance the boat?

I did some rough measurements of LR's mainsail from overhead shots, and they are getting something like ~7.8% camber at the top of the Pirelli strip, and ~11.9% at the draft stripe above that.  Haven't looked at AM yet.

image.png.aa8eb41d337920259335904342f7acdc.png

I'd imagine it will be substantially less. That sail seemed much much flatter which could make those bear aways very difficult. Clearly this wasn't their only problem yesterday. Their controls are certainly not as refined as they were a few weeks ago when they were favored to win this event. I seriously hope they will be back if they get sent home and this isn't a one time effort.

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12 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

It is funny how so many are now criticizing all of the features of AM after these races.  I Still think that AM has one if the best designs and they know what they are doing. 

I think that AM went into the race with the exact setup that they wanted for the conditions and fully expected to do better.  The commentators want to criticize the sail, but TH said that in the higher winds they get just as much power with less aero drag.  AM has been sailing with it for months and has the data and they have looked very stable using it in before.

I think the problems arise from a boat that was damaged much more than we all thought.  TH has said that they have had stability problems with the rudder in the training since the relaunch.  I know that I didn't tend to see it at first, but they have not been sailing on rails since they put it back on the water.  The boat typically gets more stable as they go faster, AM got squirrelly.  AM said that the rudder was bent in the crash and you can go back and see pictures of them sticking a Knife in the rudder indicating some de-lamination:

140154436_821072425116218_3974388967997786675_o.jpg.2344cb65949c152e5fa492d21955dd10.jpg

Depending upon how they fixed/replaced the rudder, it could cause some weakness that could give less control.  

The questions from the press said that it was even shakier in Dean's hands then before.  TH said that is based upon the speed when you develop some harmonics in the rudder (I do not notice that with the other teams) that causes it to shake.

Unfortunately, I do not think that AM has enough time to correct the problem and get competitive with LR.  It is a shame, they had a good boat and a good crew.

I don't think that is what's happening here, but who knows. I'd love to know where it "bent". I havent seen too many sections like this "bend" and not just fail outright, especially if it bent fore and aft. Wonder if he is talking close to the bearings.

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3 minutes ago, cbulger said:

Not sure max speed is "pointless" - it does seem to be an indicator of instability. We see it happen as they hit beam reach during mark roundings and if that number hits high 40's or above, then that appears to be the dangerous cavitation point for rudders.

But that's not max speed at all; apart from being bigger and scarier it's no different to the issues you get in skiffs. The bear-away is always the most hazardous part of the operation, and any time you park the boat downwind (for instance by stuffing it into a wave) things get messy. Hence today's tack on the downwind leg because AM didn't have enough speed to gybe safely. Anyone who's sailed skiffs will have abandoned a gybe, at one time or another, because the boat slowed down at the wrong time...

I doubt their rudder is cavitating; it's either stalling, ventilating, or a combination of the two, and it's caused by asking more of the rudder than it's able to give. Whether that's not being able to bear away round the windward mark in your dinghy because it's not flat, or because you have a massive sailplan and a tiny rudder, the principles are the same.

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I think the real problem for them is they have tried to improve but without the time to test it. I have always thought they had the boat with the most potential.

 

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I must admit I find the idea of composites bending a bit odd too.

But I'm not so convinced the accident has caused the speed issues. I just don't think they have improved when GB and LR have.

I don’t think the incident has caused speed issues either. They are still quite fast, but it doesn’t matter if you are out of control.

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10 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I must admit I find the idea of composites bending a bit odd too.

But I'm not so convinced the accident has caused the speed issues. I just don't think they have improved when GB and LR have.

Not so much the rudder but would not the rudder stock be steel or an alloy of some sort?

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2 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

I don’t think the incident has caused speed issues either. They are still quite fast, but it doesn’t matter if you are out of control.

Very similar to some things that were said about LR after the last race against GB. In wind are these boats getting close enough to the maximums that it is control and tactics that will make the difference now. Seems surprising this early on and with such design differences, but with the sophisticated simulation it is possible I guess

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

Probably, and if anything was bent that would be it. I was referring to Alchemists suggestion of delamination causing ben

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

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It's karma.  NYYC but in effect the DeVos et al syndicate were going to restore the Cup from the tawdry spectacle it had become, etc. They were going to stimulate American sailing, engage the grassroots. https://nyyc.org/news/-/blogs/new-york-yc-and-bella-ment https://apnews.com/article/d1ad5ae7a36f40639daf29bcf08c71cf

They did a bunch of "outreach" to mighty white yacht clubs, hired a talented bunch of foreign mercenaries to sail it. And I leave it to PA to explain why DeVos has own bad karma.

Not my team. 

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If the fittings are bent but are built into composites then it may not it be repairable. And if they have a limit of 4 they would have to go back to earlier one. Which may not be consistent with other changes to get balance but still seems the best bet

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4 minutes ago, dullers said:

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

If it was a design issue, why wasn’t this happening before the crash?

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20 minutes ago, dullers said:

I think the real problem for them is they have tried to improve but without the time to test it. I have always thought they had the boat with the most potential.

 

This whole AC foiling design needs more time and testing. There should have been a longer road and more racing. 

And why does barker look like he has a white knuckle death grip on the wheel. Is he shaking or is the wheel? Other drivers seem much more relaxed.

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12 minutes ago, dullers said:

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

First pic is the stress strain curve of titanium. In the linear portion, the material will return to its original shape before loading, the curved portion is permanent deformation, and the drop of is failure. The second curve is carbon, notice that there is only a linear portion. (These are generalized and just grabbed on google image search)

E8DB0566-66B8-4BB9-AB9F-96B207E73409.png.b26df7634f877debf67e1955ead680b1.png2F400A76-37E4-4AB6-982E-EEE5D1379BAE.png.74794dd879d8452bae2b0a4709cc4b05.png

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9 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

It's karma.  NYYC but in effect the DeVos et al syndicate were going to restore the Cup from the tawdry spectacle it had become, etc. They were going to stimulate American sailing, engage the grassroots. https://nyyc.org/news/-/blogs/new-york-yc-and-bella-ment https://apnews.com/article/d1ad5ae7a36f40639daf29bcf08c71cf

They did a bunch of "outreach" to mighty white yacht clubs, hired a talented bunch of foreign mercenaries to sail it. And I leave it to PA to explain why DeVos has own bad karma.

Not my team. 

What is a mighty white yacht club and why bring a false race card into this? 

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11 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

If it was a design issue, why wasn’t this happening before the crash?

They have never been steady and DBs knuckles have been vibrating since the start.

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18 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

If it was a design issue, why wasn’t this happening before the crash?

Amway II has always had the shakes boat one didn’t.
The proof must lay with the shaking from the upper portion of the rudder stock to the wheel I have seen in the past a cable control system how does the vibration get transferred.

If it is not a manual system but a hydraulic one that feedback wouldn’t exist.

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4 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

The shaking certainly existed (not to its current extent, but they were not out of control? Did you not watch the December racing? 

True but if i remember it was in the lower wind ranges but you have a point. Maybe this issue has become apparent as they have increased speed with other improvements.

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13 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Amway II has always had the shakes boat one didn’t.
The proof must lay with the shaking from the upper portion of the rudder stock to the wheel I have seen in the past a cable control system how does the vibration get transferred.

If it is not a manual system but a hydraulic one that feedback wouldn’t exist.

Shaking is cavitation/stall issue. 
The bear away video from Friday, you see the rudder turn quickly to the end stop. That is not helm induced, that is cavitation inducing a flow separation on one side of the rudder. Added cavitation induced drag forcing the rudder to turn toward that side. 
If the steering was hydraulic control the rudder would not turn, but the added force would bend the blade, or cause some other failure in the rudder, or linkage. 
The cavitation probably is caused by a poor choice of foil cross section, as in max chord too far from the leading edge.

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30 minutes ago, dullers said:

What is a mighty white yacht club and why bring a false race card into this? 

American Magic talked about grassroots outreach to inspire the next generation of American sailing. On social media one saw pictures of these events at yacht clubs.. The audiences appeared predominantly Caucasian. Mostly white. "MIGHTY" IS A SLANG SYNONYM FOR VERY. It was a comment on the diversity of their outreach to the next generation of American sailing.  

The failure to fulfill their stated goals, or hypocrisy in fulfilling them, imo contributes to bad karma.

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It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

When it comes AC matters of race you struggle to find a dark skinned crew member apart from Team Shosholoza.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

AM said that the rudder was bent in the crash

Huh. Maybe they have a metal stock (you do that where minimum diameter more important than minimum weight) with carbon foil.

You don't really bend carbon. It either flexes up to the yield point and then goes bang or not. It does not bend and stay bent like a metal.

1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

The questions from the press said that it was even shakier in Dean's hands then before.  TH said that is based upon the speed when you develop some harmonics in the rudder (I do not notice that with the other teams) that causes it to shake.

Harmonics from the rudder foil or the inverted T foil I wonder? You'd only get harmonics if there is something creating the forcing - like vortex shedding off the trailing edge. I'd be very surprised if it was cavitation and they were just ignoring it. 

Whenever I saw Dean holding the wheel in the deathgrip of a teenager on their first drive it heavy traffic, it looked like there was vibration.

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4 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

When it comes AC matters of race you struggle to find a dark skinned crew member apart from Team Shosholoza.

There are plenty of places you dont find white people either. 100 m in the Olympics for a start. Should we force other groups to sail?  Should the next 100 ms in the Olympics contain the correct amount of diversity? Cant you see the madness and where it ends? Sailing in boats for racing or leisure is part of my culture. The race has been going on without the correct quotas for 150 years. If you note the Japanese  who are a wealthy first world country who on the whole dont sail much. Equality of opportunity is fine but equality of outcome is a fruitless and bloody waste of time. It would be nice to enjoy the sport just for the pure bloody fun.

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Feel sad for AM, looked so good during Christmas Cup, but you also have to question the limited opportunity to bed in the repaired boat. The lighter winds today might give them a bit more confidence to sail more aggressively, and they need to find something in the start box and at least keep it close and put some pressure back onto LR. Alas, I can see tears by 6pm NZT as the crew rolls into base and the cameras zoom in on the emotional looks on the team and their supporters faces....all over way to soon!

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1 hour ago, EastCoastHustle said:

The shaking certainly existed (not to its current extent, but they were not out of control? Did you not watch the December racing? 

Anyone who's flown small aircraft will recognise this as buffet; it's what happens when a wing gets close to the stall. It's actually a good feature, because it lets you know you're on the edge. In an aircraft, you can just back off a little, but that's not really an option in a sketchy bear-away. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't wishing the rudder was a tad larger...

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

There should have been a longer road and more racing.

To be fair, there was supposed to be more racing, but Covid put paid to that.

Give this another cycle or two, assuming the rule doesn't change, and I suspect the boats will be a lot closer (in design and speed).

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1 hour ago, EastCoastHustle said:

The shaking certainly existed (not to its current extent, but they were not out of control? Did you not watch the December racing? 

Is there any video, from any time, that shows Patriot doing controlled manoeuvres at speed?  (i.e. comparable to the other teams)

 

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

No carbon laminates don’t “bend” like that-they behave almost 100%elastically until they fail -normally with a Big Bang. So if you take them to 95% of their ultimate strength and then take the load of they are just return to just like they were before -no bend!

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

There are non-white Americans who sail, including children in community sailing organizations. If America's Cup outreach in America wants to inspire the future of American sailing, not including them says something.  Cultures change. Fortunes change. Rich people own the AC syndicate but people become well off by sailing for them. Outreach imo should extend past "people like us" or "good cultural fit" when you are talking about grade schoollers, ffs!

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17 minutes ago, TLA said:

Is there any video, from any time, that shows Patriot doing controlled manoeuvres at speed?  (i.e. comparable to the other teams)

 

you can do the research yourself, but the answer is absolutely yes. The shaking may have existed but the boat was much smoother. At the beginning of ACWS, AM was considered to have the best maneuvers.

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

True but if i remember it was in the lower wind ranges but you have a point. Maybe this issue has become apparent as they have increased speed with other improvements.

Barker has always looked like he was holding onto a wheel which was stopping the thing from shaking itself apart. 

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36 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

There are non-white Americans who sail, including children in community sailing organizations. If America's Cup outreach in America wants to inspire the future of American sailing, not including them says something.  Cultures change. Fortunes change. Rich people own the AC syndicate but people become well off by sailing for them. Outreach imo should extend past "people like us" or "good cultural fit" when you are talking about grade schoollers, ffs!

So how did they exclude them?

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29 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Barker has always looked like he was holding onto a wheel which was stopping the thing from shaking itself apart. 

Yes - his posture has always been hunched and very tense which I don't think is good news for performance when there is no physical outlet for that tension like in a dinghy. He is generally shaking like a shitting whippet, from which I have taken that he either had repeatedly underdressed (unlikely), had early onset alzheimers (unlikely), hadn't had a morning pick me up (unlikley) or was constantly really nervous (maybe). He always looked like that in the early Prada cup, but the boat was a lot more stable in yaw, pitch and heave when flying and seemed to go well esp uprange. It has seemed less so since the crash - I'm inclined to think that is something hardware or software related in foil control rather than the guys. Then last race I noticed that Goodisons hands were also like Muhhamed Ali's on the wheel when handing over, so I think its feeding back from vibrations (1-10Hz region) in the rudder system, which isn't good. Barker probably choppier on the helm today as well which is understandable if the boat is skittish. I don't think it has anythig to do with mainsail unlike some other commentators - they would know if the main is gash and would not use it.

I think that from racing cars to luges and skeleton bobs, a lot of efforts are made by engineers to make a racing vehicle place as few demands as possible on the pilot - really good machines are often a bit "twitchy" which can be conflated as "responsive" depending on capability of driver, but in a predicatble progressive way, and don't shake the occupant to pieces.

By contrast I couldn't tell if Spithill was ever steering he may as well have hung his arm out the window. By the same token its easy if you aren't under pressure and only sailing the course rather than getting antagonised by another boat.

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Data from yesterday's races show that while AM certainly had control issues, they were actually close to the performance they had in the RR before they capsized. It's LR who leapfrogged them in the meantime.

The only major issue that jumps out for AM is that they were pointing the boat all over the place downwind. Their downwind TWA was highly variable (130 - 165 degrees) compared to LR, which had a fairly narrow range between TWA 140 - 158. But on average, AM still pointed a little bit lower (dotted lines):

541161188_dwtwa.png.13a2b95aa476aeb9cd4fdece807302dc.png

Comparing VMG to the capsize race (wind speed was ~ 1.5 kts higher yesterday)

Upwind, RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

887448988_uwvmg.png.55ab53b7a2c5027cab10c03a7f4c5d59.png    1790294664_uwvmg.png.ce8390c3ccb20051bce661c45cccd3d5.png

AM had better upwind VMG yesterday than in the RR race, but that's expected since the wind was stronger. However, they've clearly lost their advantage in VMG relative to LR.

 

Downwind RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

842140442_dwvmg.png.438134efe3eea48bd6452574e5c561f5.png   1550705879_dwvmg.png.88a88cea8a0a93df92b996db979e64a8.png

Downwind, it seems AM is still able to sail with a higher VMG than LR at least some of the time, but due to their control issues, they can't keep that consistently, so the average VMG was a little lower than LR's, while in the RR they had a clear advantage in downwind VMG.

In terms of tactics, in Race-1, they were OK, but LR did a better job picking the shifts. In Race-2, they were identical (AM basically followed LR around the course):

favtack.png.959d89e0e131dc752e46861f8d6ec58c.png     favtack.png.30ec1643ecd31e3de6972d42926e15f7.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

It's karma.  NYYC but in effect the DeVos et al syndicate were going to restore the Cup from the tawdry spectacle it had become, etc. They were going to stimulate American sailing, engage the grassroots. https://nyyc.org/news/-/blogs/new-york-yc-and-bella-ment https://apnews.com/article/d1ad5ae7a36f40639daf29bcf08c71cf

They did a bunch of "outreach" to mighty white yacht clubs, hired a talented bunch of foreign mercenaries to sail it. And I leave it to PA to explain why DeVos has own bad karma.

Not my team. 

So precious.  

I’m sorry this happened to you. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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23 minutes ago, erdb said:

Data from yesterday's races show that while AM certainly had control issues, they were actually close to the performance they had in the RR before they capsized. It's LR who leapfrogged them in the meantime.

The only major issue that jumps out for AM is that they were pointing the boat all over the place downwind. Their downwind TWA was highly variable (130 - 165 degrees) compared to LR, which had a fairly narrow range between TWA 140 - 158. But on average, AM still pointed a little bit lower (dotted lines):

541161188_dwtwa.png.13a2b95aa476aeb9cd4fdece807302dc.png

Comparing VMG to the capsize race (wind speed was ~ 1.5 kts higher yesterday)

Upwind, RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

887448988_uwvmg.png.55ab53b7a2c5027cab10c03a7f4c5d59.png    1790294664_uwvmg.png.ce8390c3ccb20051bce661c45cccd3d5.png

AM had better upwind VMG yesterday than in the RR race, but that's expected since the wind was stronger. However, they've clearly lost their advantage in VMG relative to LR.

 

Downwind RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

842140442_dwvmg.png.438134efe3eea48bd6452574e5c561f5.png   1550705879_dwvmg.png.88a88cea8a0a93df92b996db979e64a8.png

Downwind, it seems AM is still able to sail with a higher VMG than LR at least some of the time, but due to their control issues, they can't keep that consistently, so the average VMG was a little lower than LR's, while in the RR they had a clear advantage in downwind VMG.

In terms of tactics, in Race-1, they were OK, but LR did a better job picking the shifts. In Race-2, they were identical (AM basically followed LR around the course):

favtack.png.959d89e0e131dc752e46861f8d6ec58c.png     favtack.png.30ec1643ecd31e3de6972d42926e15f7.png

 

 

Brilliant 

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

 

Well, then let's all take a look at the annual NYYC member dinner, and let's count the african american members .... 

PRO TIP:  the waiters are NOT members !!!!

 

AAD2018-Feature-Image2-landscape.jpg

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23 minutes ago, Norberto said:

 

Well, then let's all take a look at the annual NYYC member dinner, and let's count the african american members .... 

PRO TIP:  the waiters are NOT members !!!!

 

AAD2018-Feature-Image2-landscape.jpg

Lovely venue

 

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