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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

Probably, and if anything was bent that would be it. I was referring to Alchemists suggestion of delamination causing ben

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

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It's karma.  NYYC but in effect the DeVos et al syndicate were going to restore the Cup from the tawdry spectacle it had become, etc. They were going to stimulate American sailing, engage the grassroots. https://nyyc.org/news/-/blogs/new-york-yc-and-bella-ment https://apnews.com/article/d1ad5ae7a36f40639daf29bcf08c71cf

They did a bunch of "outreach" to mighty white yacht clubs, hired a talented bunch of foreign mercenaries to sail it. And I leave it to PA to explain why DeVos has own bad karma.

Not my team. 

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If the fittings are bent but are built into composites then it may not it be repairable. And if they have a limit of 4 they would have to go back to earlier one. Which may not be consistent with other changes to get balance but still seems the best bet

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4 minutes ago, dullers said:

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

If it was a design issue, why wasn’t this happening before the crash?

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20 minutes ago, dullers said:

I think the real problem for them is they have tried to improve but without the time to test it. I have always thought they had the boat with the most potential.

 

This whole AC foiling design needs more time and testing. There should have been a longer road and more racing. 

And why does barker look like he has a white knuckle death grip on the wheel. Is he shaking or is the wheel? Other drivers seem much more relaxed.

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12 minutes ago, dullers said:

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

First pic is the stress strain curve of titanium. In the linear portion, the material will return to its original shape before loading, the curved portion is permanent deformation, and the drop of is failure. The second curve is carbon, notice that there is only a linear portion. (These are generalized and just grabbed on google image search)

E8DB0566-66B8-4BB9-AB9F-96B207E73409.png.b26df7634f877debf67e1955ead680b1.png2F400A76-37E4-4AB6-982E-EEE5D1379BAE.png.74794dd879d8452bae2b0a4709cc4b05.png

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9 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

It's karma.  NYYC but in effect the DeVos et al syndicate were going to restore the Cup from the tawdry spectacle it had become, etc. They were going to stimulate American sailing, engage the grassroots. https://nyyc.org/news/-/blogs/new-york-yc-and-bella-ment https://apnews.com/article/d1ad5ae7a36f40639daf29bcf08c71cf

They did a bunch of "outreach" to mighty white yacht clubs, hired a talented bunch of foreign mercenaries to sail it. And I leave it to PA to explain why DeVos has own bad karma.

Not my team. 

What is a mighty white yacht club and why bring a false race card into this? 

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11 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

If it was a design issue, why wasn’t this happening before the crash?

They have never been steady and DBs knuckles have been vibrating since the start.

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18 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

If it was a design issue, why wasn’t this happening before the crash?

Amway II has always had the shakes boat one didn’t.
The proof must lay with the shaking from the upper portion of the rudder stock to the wheel I have seen in the past a cable control system how does the vibration get transferred.

If it is not a manual system but a hydraulic one that feedback wouldn’t exist.

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4 minutes ago, EastCoastHustle said:

The shaking certainly existed (not to its current extent, but they were not out of control? Did you not watch the December racing? 

True but if i remember it was in the lower wind ranges but you have a point. Maybe this issue has become apparent as they have increased speed with other improvements.

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13 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Amway II has always had the shakes boat one didn’t.
The proof must lay with the shaking from the upper portion of the rudder stock to the wheel I have seen in the past a cable control system how does the vibration get transferred.

If it is not a manual system but a hydraulic one that feedback wouldn’t exist.

Shaking is cavitation/stall issue. 
The bear away video from Friday, you see the rudder turn quickly to the end stop. That is not helm induced, that is cavitation inducing a flow separation on one side of the rudder. Added cavitation induced drag forcing the rudder to turn toward that side. 
If the steering was hydraulic control the rudder would not turn, but the added force would bend the blade, or cause some other failure in the rudder, or linkage. 
The cavitation probably is caused by a poor choice of foil cross section, as in max chord too far from the leading edge.

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30 minutes ago, dullers said:

What is a mighty white yacht club and why bring a false race card into this? 

American Magic talked about grassroots outreach to inspire the next generation of American sailing. On social media one saw pictures of these events at yacht clubs.. The audiences appeared predominantly Caucasian. Mostly white. "MIGHTY" IS A SLANG SYNONYM FOR VERY. It was a comment on the diversity of their outreach to the next generation of American sailing.  

The failure to fulfill their stated goals, or hypocrisy in fulfilling them, imo contributes to bad karma.

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It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

When it comes AC matters of race you struggle to find a dark skinned crew member apart from Team Shosholoza.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

AM said that the rudder was bent in the crash

Huh. Maybe they have a metal stock (you do that where minimum diameter more important than minimum weight) with carbon foil.

You don't really bend carbon. It either flexes up to the yield point and then goes bang or not. It does not bend and stay bent like a metal.

1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

The questions from the press said that it was even shakier in Dean's hands then before.  TH said that is based upon the speed when you develop some harmonics in the rudder (I do not notice that with the other teams) that causes it to shake.

Harmonics from the rudder foil or the inverted T foil I wonder? You'd only get harmonics if there is something creating the forcing - like vortex shedding off the trailing edge. I'd be very surprised if it was cavitation and they were just ignoring it. 

Whenever I saw Dean holding the wheel in the deathgrip of a teenager on their first drive it heavy traffic, it looked like there was vibration.

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4 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

When it comes AC matters of race you struggle to find a dark skinned crew member apart from Team Shosholoza.

There are plenty of places you dont find white people either. 100 m in the Olympics for a start. Should we force other groups to sail?  Should the next 100 ms in the Olympics contain the correct amount of diversity? Cant you see the madness and where it ends? Sailing in boats for racing or leisure is part of my culture. The race has been going on without the correct quotas for 150 years. If you note the Japanese  who are a wealthy first world country who on the whole dont sail much. Equality of opportunity is fine but equality of outcome is a fruitless and bloody waste of time. It would be nice to enjoy the sport just for the pure bloody fun.

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Feel sad for AM, looked so good during Christmas Cup, but you also have to question the limited opportunity to bed in the repaired boat. The lighter winds today might give them a bit more confidence to sail more aggressively, and they need to find something in the start box and at least keep it close and put some pressure back onto LR. Alas, I can see tears by 6pm NZT as the crew rolls into base and the cameras zoom in on the emotional looks on the team and their supporters faces....all over way to soon!

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1 hour ago, EastCoastHustle said:

The shaking certainly existed (not to its current extent, but they were not out of control? Did you not watch the December racing? 

Anyone who's flown small aircraft will recognise this as buffet; it's what happens when a wing gets close to the stall. It's actually a good feature, because it lets you know you're on the edge. In an aircraft, you can just back off a little, but that's not really an option in a sketchy bear-away. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't wishing the rudder was a tad larger...

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

There should have been a longer road and more racing.

To be fair, there was supposed to be more racing, but Covid put paid to that.

Give this another cycle or two, assuming the rule doesn't change, and I suspect the boats will be a lot closer (in design and speed).

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1 hour ago, EastCoastHustle said:

The shaking certainly existed (not to its current extent, but they were not out of control? Did you not watch the December racing? 

Is there any video, from any time, that shows Patriot doing controlled manoeuvres at speed?  (i.e. comparable to the other teams)

 

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

ah ok. I think carbon can flex but am not sure about it bending without returning to original shape. I must admit the only carbon on my boat was when the engine was on so i have no real experience of it in a boaty environment. I am pretty sure if it was bent they could have fixed it. I think they have a design issue and wont admit it. 

No carbon laminates don’t “bend” like that-they behave almost 100%elastically until they fail -normally with a Big Bang. So if you take them to 95% of their ultimate strength and then take the load of they are just return to just like they were before -no bend!

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

There are non-white Americans who sail, including children in community sailing organizations. If America's Cup outreach in America wants to inspire the future of American sailing, not including them says something.  Cultures change. Fortunes change. Rich people own the AC syndicate but people become well off by sailing for them. Outreach imo should extend past "people like us" or "good cultural fit" when you are talking about grade schoollers, ffs!

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17 minutes ago, TLA said:

Is there any video, from any time, that shows Patriot doing controlled manoeuvres at speed?  (i.e. comparable to the other teams)

 

you can do the research yourself, but the answer is absolutely yes. The shaking may have existed but the boat was much smoother. At the beginning of ACWS, AM was considered to have the best maneuvers.

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

True but if i remember it was in the lower wind ranges but you have a point. Maybe this issue has become apparent as they have increased speed with other improvements.

Barker has always looked like he was holding onto a wheel which was stopping the thing from shaking itself apart. 

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36 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

There are non-white Americans who sail, including children in community sailing organizations. If America's Cup outreach in America wants to inspire the future of American sailing, not including them says something.  Cultures change. Fortunes change. Rich people own the AC syndicate but people become well off by sailing for them. Outreach imo should extend past "people like us" or "good cultural fit" when you are talking about grade schoollers, ffs!

So how did they exclude them?

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29 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Barker has always looked like he was holding onto a wheel which was stopping the thing from shaking itself apart. 

Yes - his posture has always been hunched and very tense which I don't think is good news for performance when there is no physical outlet for that tension like in a dinghy. He is generally shaking like a shitting whippet, from which I have taken that he either had repeatedly underdressed (unlikely), had early onset alzheimers (unlikely), hadn't had a morning pick me up (unlikley) or was constantly really nervous (maybe). He always looked like that in the early Prada cup, but the boat was a lot more stable in yaw, pitch and heave when flying and seemed to go well esp uprange. It has seemed less so since the crash - I'm inclined to think that is something hardware or software related in foil control rather than the guys. Then last race I noticed that Goodisons hands were also like Muhhamed Ali's on the wheel when handing over, so I think its feeding back from vibrations (1-10Hz region) in the rudder system, which isn't good. Barker probably choppier on the helm today as well which is understandable if the boat is skittish. I don't think it has anythig to do with mainsail unlike some other commentators - they would know if the main is gash and would not use it.

I think that from racing cars to luges and skeleton bobs, a lot of efforts are made by engineers to make a racing vehicle place as few demands as possible on the pilot - really good machines are often a bit "twitchy" which can be conflated as "responsive" depending on capability of driver, but in a predicatble progressive way, and don't shake the occupant to pieces.

By contrast I couldn't tell if Spithill was ever steering he may as well have hung his arm out the window. By the same token its easy if you aren't under pressure and only sailing the course rather than getting antagonised by another boat.

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Data from yesterday's races show that while AM certainly had control issues, they were actually close to the performance they had in the RR before they capsized. It's LR who leapfrogged them in the meantime.

The only major issue that jumps out for AM is that they were pointing the boat all over the place downwind. Their downwind TWA was highly variable (130 - 165 degrees) compared to LR, which had a fairly narrow range between TWA 140 - 158. But on average, AM still pointed a little bit lower (dotted lines):

541161188_dwtwa.png.13a2b95aa476aeb9cd4fdece807302dc.png

Comparing VMG to the capsize race (wind speed was ~ 1.5 kts higher yesterday)

Upwind, RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

887448988_uwvmg.png.55ab53b7a2c5027cab10c03a7f4c5d59.png    1790294664_uwvmg.png.ce8390c3ccb20051bce661c45cccd3d5.png

AM had better upwind VMG yesterday than in the RR race, but that's expected since the wind was stronger. However, they've clearly lost their advantage in VMG relative to LR.

 

Downwind RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

842140442_dwvmg.png.438134efe3eea48bd6452574e5c561f5.png   1550705879_dwvmg.png.88a88cea8a0a93df92b996db979e64a8.png

Downwind, it seems AM is still able to sail with a higher VMG than LR at least some of the time, but due to their control issues, they can't keep that consistently, so the average VMG was a little lower than LR's, while in the RR they had a clear advantage in downwind VMG.

In terms of tactics, in Race-1, they were OK, but LR did a better job picking the shifts. In Race-2, they were identical (AM basically followed LR around the course):

favtack.png.959d89e0e131dc752e46861f8d6ec58c.png     favtack.png.30ec1643ecd31e3de6972d42926e15f7.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

It's karma.  NYYC but in effect the DeVos et al syndicate were going to restore the Cup from the tawdry spectacle it had become, etc. They were going to stimulate American sailing, engage the grassroots. https://nyyc.org/news/-/blogs/new-york-yc-and-bella-ment https://apnews.com/article/d1ad5ae7a36f40639daf29bcf08c71cf

They did a bunch of "outreach" to mighty white yacht clubs, hired a talented bunch of foreign mercenaries to sail it. And I leave it to PA to explain why DeVos has own bad karma.

Not my team. 

So precious.  

I’m sorry this happened to you. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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23 minutes ago, erdb said:

Data from yesterday's races show that while AM certainly had control issues, they were actually close to the performance they had in the RR before they capsized. It's LR who leapfrogged them in the meantime.

The only major issue that jumps out for AM is that they were pointing the boat all over the place downwind. Their downwind TWA was highly variable (130 - 165 degrees) compared to LR, which had a fairly narrow range between TWA 140 - 158. But on average, AM still pointed a little bit lower (dotted lines):

541161188_dwtwa.png.13a2b95aa476aeb9cd4fdece807302dc.png

Comparing VMG to the capsize race (wind speed was ~ 1.5 kts higher yesterday)

Upwind, RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

887448988_uwvmg.png.55ab53b7a2c5027cab10c03a7f4c5d59.png    1790294664_uwvmg.png.ce8390c3ccb20051bce661c45cccd3d5.png

AM had better upwind VMG yesterday than in the RR race, but that's expected since the wind was stronger. However, they've clearly lost their advantage in VMG relative to LR.

 

Downwind RR Race 6 vs Semi final Race 1:

842140442_dwvmg.png.438134efe3eea48bd6452574e5c561f5.png   1550705879_dwvmg.png.88a88cea8a0a93df92b996db979e64a8.png

Downwind, it seems AM is still able to sail with a higher VMG than LR at least some of the time, but due to their control issues, they can't keep that consistently, so the average VMG was a little lower than LR's, while in the RR they had a clear advantage in downwind VMG.

In terms of tactics, in Race-1, they were OK, but LR did a better job picking the shifts. In Race-2, they were identical (AM basically followed LR around the course):

favtack.png.959d89e0e131dc752e46861f8d6ec58c.png     favtack.png.30ec1643ecd31e3de6972d42926e15f7.png

 

 

Brilliant 

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

It is not black or white sport it is a rich mans sport. Have you thought that sailing in races is a cultural thing? When I went through the Suez canal i only saw dark skinned people sailing the work boats. It did not occur to me to question the quota. 

 

Well, then let's all take a look at the annual NYYC member dinner, and let's count the african american members .... 

PRO TIP:  the waiters are NOT members !!!!

 

AAD2018-Feature-Image2-landscape.jpg

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23 minutes ago, Norberto said:

 

Well, then let's all take a look at the annual NYYC member dinner, and let's count the african american members .... 

PRO TIP:  the waiters are NOT members !!!!

 

AAD2018-Feature-Image2-landscape.jpg

Lovely venue

 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I have an invitation to the bar one floor below, the Member has even selected the two-person booth. God I hope I can make it some day, gorgeous is right. 

Their standards must be slipping? 8)

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

Not so sure sailing aggressively in the light is the ideal tactic if you are having manoeuvrability issues.

Without sugar coating it, they looked completely clueless yesterday. I doubt they'll have fixed that overnight. It'll be match point to LRPP today, in race 3, if that race gets away.

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I have an invitation to the bar one floor below, the Member has even selected the two-person booth. God I hope I can make it some day, gorgeous is right. 

The bar below is very cool. I’ve had plenty of days there where “lunch” ends up being the whole day lol

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5 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

It is funny how so many are now criticizing all of the features of AM after these races.  I Still think that AM has one if the best designs and they know what they are doing. 

I think that AM went into the race with the exact setup that they wanted for the conditions and fully expected to do better.  The commentators want to criticize the sail, but TH said that in the higher winds they get just as much power with less aero drag.  AM has been sailing with it for months and has the data and they have looked very stable using it in before.

I think the problems arise from a boat that was damaged much more than we all thought.  TH has said that they have had stability problems with the rudder in the training since the relaunch.  I know that I didn't tend to see it at first, but they have not been sailing on rails since they put it back on the water.  The boat typically gets more stable as they go faster, AM got squirrelly.  AM said that the rudder was bent in the crash and you can go back and see pictures of them sticking a Knife in the rudder indicating some de-lamination:

140154436_821072425116218_3974388967997786675_o.jpg.2344cb65949c152e5fa492d21955dd10.jpg

Depending upon how they fixed/replaced the rudder, it could cause some weakness that could give less control.  

The questions from the press said that it was even shakier in Dean's hands then before.  TH said that is based upon the speed when you develop some harmonics in the rudder (I do not notice that with the other teams) that causes it to shake.

Unfortunately, I do not think that AM has enough time to correct the problem and get competitive with LR.  It is a shame, they had a good boat and a good crew.

In the video of the haulout after the crash there are 3 people in an inflatable behind the boat looking very intently at something on or around the rudder. Appears they knew there was something wrong back there 

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48 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Their standards must be slipping? 8)

Obviously! 
Got a virtual tour of the place with him, we  focused especially on the Model Room and lingered on certain Models, it was f’ing brilliant. My enthusiasm is what must have gotten me the lunch invitation. :) 

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34 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Yeah! Just like this racist team! Not one white guy!  And the coach makes one third of what the players make! 
 

 

 

Untitled.jpg

Thats' because they suck a basketball and since the ther countries send pro's USA needs to out the team out there 

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32 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

If the American team was made up of Americans, they might have more people of color representing their crew.
They dont even have an American main sponsor  

New Zealand’s main sponsor isn’t from New Zealand. Many teams have had non-national sponsors over the years.

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According to Magnus - the reliable fount of AC knowledge, AM has a new set of foils on. Hard to tell with them as all their foils look the same. These are supposedly "light air" foils, so I assume they're a little bigger in area. This might explain their control issues.

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I can’t believe the pass that Terry Hutchison gets.  Going 0-10 in the Prada Cup is shocking.  You can bet the high rollers at the NYYC are not happy with the result.  An absolute embarrassment for USA and maybe the most disappointing challenger of all time except Oracle BMW in 2007.  This was Terry’s baby.  He had all the leeway and resources necessary to be competitive.  What a total cock up.

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15 minutes ago, Xlot said:

On Italian TV, Gianni  Cariboni was asked about AM’s foil arms oscillation yesterday. He said it’s due to electrovalves being intolerant of even minor oil impurities

 

11 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Disaster for AM...FCS issues.....

Today as well, apparently 

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Very sad after 3,5 years, they had an incredible courage, amazing class, they finished with a limping boat. The beginning of the end was their boat under water, even though they could not really come back they decided to fight to the end. Some insults here have been disgusting. They have to be proud of their courage and obstination. They are a lesson of first class behaviour, true gentlemen.

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4 in a row... gackkkkkk.  that was hard to watch

 

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Very sad after 3,5 years, they had an incredible courage, amazing class, they finished with a limping boat. The beginning of the end was their boat under water, even though they could not really come back they decided to fight to the end. Some insults here have been disgusting. They have to be proud of their courage and obstination. They are a lesson of first class behaviour, true gentlemen.

I agree. True Gentlemen and obstinate

In a true Corinthian spirit they chose to sail with friends and in genuine display of loyalty, they stuck with that team of friends, even when others of a less benevolent nature might have made changes.. Winning is not everything. There is much to like and admire about Magic (unless you wanted to win)

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6 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Foils? Foils my ass  

they lost  another start! That’s 3 in a row  

TH just said they wanted the right side ( plan a ) with an 8 degree favored  line and LR executed their start better and AM had to go left. ( plan B ) he basically admitted the race was over then. 
 

they are getting schooled at the starts. 

Given the FCS issues that eventuated, maybe they didn't have any options to push for winning the start? Worried they'd not get a foil up/down in tight situation, no trust in the boat post repair?

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I hope American Magic come back again. Would be a shame to throw away everything they have achieved. They have petabytes of data, two whole boats to use. Experienced design team etc etc

Even Team New Zealand loses just as often as they win 

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I really feel for AM team, Dean and TH. Unfortunately regaining all that was lost in that unlucky capsize was impossible. Respect for the whole crew, and shore team for trying everything.

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2 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Dennis was NOT a gentleman. But he was a winner.

Dennis was not a winner all the time either. If you discount the big boat challenge which was not a match

He win in 1980 and 1987

He lost in 1983, 92, 95, 2000, 2003 

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Next time, they should let teams develop their own FCS. Given how new everything was this time, a supplied part made sense from a safety standpoint, until it didn't work. Imagine trying to plant a tight lee bow and, oh sorry, the board won't go down.

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9 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

It is funny how so many are now criticizing all of the features of AM after these races.  I Still think that AM has one if the best designs and they know what they are doing. 

 

Unfortunately, I do not think that AM has enough time to correct the problem and get competitive with LR.  It is a shame, they had a good boat and a good crew.

FIFY

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Just now, Varan said:

Hopefully S+S finds funding and give it a go too.

Without a friendly billionaire or two it’s going to be hard. Corporate America is not exactly full of cash at the moment with COVID doing damage to the American economy

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9 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Amway II has always had the shakes boat one didn’t.
The proof must lay with the shaking from the upper portion of the rudder stock to the wheel I have seen in the past a cable control system how does the vibration get transferred.

If it is not a manual system but a hydraulic one that feedback wouldn’t exist.

Terry said the shaking in the wheel is caused by harmonic vibrations in the rudder when it reaches a certain speed.  I never see it with the other teams, maybe they have it dampened from the wheel.  Seem strange that AM would be the only ones to not be able to figure it out.

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4 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Terry said the shaking in the wheel is caused by harmonic vibrations in the rudder when it reaches a certain speed.  I never see it with the other teams, maybe they have it dampened from the wheel.  Seem strange that AM would be the only ones to not be able to figure it out.

Prada stated that they found another 10% speed. If that’s true and AM had not crashed, they still would of been losing 

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