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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

Mind games winners maybe, but I think the frackers are still vulnerable in light airs and upwind and were only a bit faster downwind. Agreed that handbags not 10% faster, but fast enough to force some pretty aggressive tactics on BA which might not work out so easily next time with Jimmy sailing with more confidence after four straight wins.

A first to seven series is most likely to go with the faster boat. 

 

Remember that in the last race between them GB had no Cunningham, so with that fixed they would have been a bit faster. And will have got faster in the meantime too. So I have hopes for GB (but will freely admit to absolute bias)

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Why o why did Terry Hutchison think it was a good idea to be a grinder / tactician????????

Think about all the inner workings of an Americas Cup campaign.  The hundreds of personnel and contractors who Terry was responsible for.

Terry is good but he aint that good.  

And why did no one at NYYC say anything to Terry about this setup??? the hundreds of millions of dollars expended.

Terry should have NEVER been on that boat.  Dean was questionable but I like Deano as long as he has a STRONG TACTICIAN.  

And while Terry is a great guy personally, professionally he is going downhill, nothing against him but its a young mans game now.

And what if this would have been Ben Ainslie doing this and Ineos went down in flames 0-10????

 

Yall would have his head on a stick.

 

And the even bigger cock up is who are the young guys on AM that are going to carry the torch?????

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AM is a big organization - I'm sure there are plenty of people who should share responsibility for the outcome.

There's a lot we don't know yet, but probably a good bit will leak out over the next year or so, as the people go their own ways.

 

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9 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

A boat called Model S would be even more scary because you just know it would leave no barriers in the way of innovation.

I would like to see the "SailX" syndicate compete for USA.  Elon Musk has a lot of good controls systems engineering talent at Tesla, SpaceX, probably Boring Co., too. And he's got money. 

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I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite fascinating.

Certainly a shame to see them go down in straight sets but that’s the game.

A shame for Dean and some of the comments on this forum are disgusting, even for Anarchy.

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Ouch. That's a profoundly demoralizing way to end a campaign. The crew busts ass for nine days to get the boat back on the water, only to lose every race. For a cornucopia of reasons I hope this syndicate stays together. One most obvious reason at this moment is that the team that sticks together after this is a hardened team with the exceptionalism convincingly beaten out of them. This definitely seems to have worked for Ainslie's team over two campaigns. 

Speaking personally, I'm bummed. That boat was built a half mile from my shop. Boo hoo!

Now that the campaign is over and we do get to discuss major changes, I'm shifting gears back to where I was at the outset. LETS. HAVE. GOD. DAMN. TRYOUTS. Bust out the mule right now and let Gulari, Struble, CanfieldKotoun, Kirby, and all the other fast Americans with relevant non-keelboat experience steer for a hot minute. There's a two time moth world champion, engineer and professional sailor living in goddamn Detroit. And that's one guy! If terry doesn't like him, ignore terry for at least a month. If the boats are going to remain similar in the next edition (think AC72-AC50) the emphasis need not be on veterans who have a solid track record of leading a team through the process of ironing out a new boat (Barker on the AC72, Spithill on the AC72) and skippers can be recruited on different criteria. The kiwis picking Burling in 2017 looked pretty ballsy at the time, but it definitely didn't blow the guaranteed win that came from remembering that bicycles exist. The next American team needs to be faster than the team that wins this edition, not simply faster than the American team that just lost. 

DRC

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4 hours ago, sailfly said:

The purpose of grassroots outreach is to ensure equality of opportunity.....

 

I agree but it seems to me it is not an opportunity taken up by all. Should we force them to sail?  How about compulsory opportunity?

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10 hours ago, mako23 said:

Dennis was not a winner all the time either. If you discount the big boat challenge which was not a match

He win in 1980 and 1987

He lost in 1983, 92, 95, 2000, 2003 

He was a winner with Courageous in 1974, starting helmsman and main trimmer with Hood after they pulled Bavier. Evens it out a little.

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41 minutes ago, Swanno said:

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite fascinating.

Certainly a shame to see them go down in straight sets but that’s the game.

A shame for Dean and some of the comments on this forum are disgusting, even for Anarchy.

This. 

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10 hours ago, weta27 said:

Sad to see them go, especially after such early promise.

They were hard workers and decent guys, TH is a real class act. 

I hope NYYC comes back.

DSC_5721.JPG

And they have the coolest looking pair of AC75's in the field. Althout Prada b2 comes close.

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5 hours ago, winchfodder said:

I cant see the three NYYC financiers coming back unless they can find an after guard up to the job. At the moment there doesn't appear to be any US candidates at all in the fast foiling classes.

They definitely spent the money to win and AM sure looked like the best boat at Christmas but the issues came out with more racing. So I can’t  blame the money, even though the DeVos family is the Antichrist.

I also don’t blame Dean. He was not going to best Ainslie or Spithill without a significant edge in other areas. He was selected knowing that and the team didn’t give him an edge. The boat looked hot at Christmas but it was flawed - rudder, foil control, software. Terry selected him and the rest because they were his guys. Sometimes your guys aren’t the best guys.

And the tactics weren’t great, or the sail choices since Christmas.

Terry is most at fault. 

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1 hour ago, Rando said:

I would like to see the "SailX" syndicate compete for USA.  Elon Musk has a lot of good controls systems engineering talent at Tesla, SpaceX, probably Boring Co., too. And he's got money. 

I don't know much about Musk.., but I think his aim is to change the world, and I can only imagine that he would view the AC as much ado about nothing

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1 hour ago, loneshark64 said:

They definitely spent the money to win and AM sure looked like the best boat at Christmas but the issues came out with more racing. So I can’t  blame the money, even though the DeVos family is the Antichrist.

I also don’t blame Dean. He was not going to best Ainslie or Spithill without a significant edge in other areas. He was selected knowing that and the team didn’t give him an edge. The boat looked hot at Christmas but it was flawed - rudder, foil control, software. Terry selected him and the rest because they were his guys. Sometimes your guys aren’t the best guys.

And the tactics weren’t great, or the sail choices since Christmas.

Terry is most at fault. 

My view is that AM never thought they could win this cycle of the cup. Dean may not be the best helm/skipper, but he has 20+ years of cup knowledge and AM wanted to mine it. 

Assuming AM is back in the next cup, I doubt Dean will be there. Sad, but true.

 

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Having built and sailed two AC75's, AM have a lot of experience, and IP - flight control, twin mains, foil design etc......It's a solid foundation in which to go forward with another campaign. They wouldn't be starting from scratch, assuming the rule doesn't change much. It would be a pity to let that knowledge base go to waste. Terry should probably go into a management role like Dalts. Dean could coach/mentor, like Ray Davies. Rolling forward with your accumulated knowledge has been the key to NZ's success. Ben realises it. Iain Percy spoke of it in his interview with Shirley.

I hope the backers of AM do commit to another go. Having the NYYC participate is great for the event - but you do have to see it as a long game. Heck if Trump can raise 200 million in a matter of weeks for a phoney PAC, surely the richest country on earth can find a couple hundred mill for another crack at the Auld mug.

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Having time to get over the utter ass whoopin put on AM I fear, based on Casper getting emotional in the interview on the boat, that AM continuing on for AC 37 is far from a sure thing.  Or if they do continue it will be without Casper in charge.  Fingers crossed the NYYC is not one and done. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Having time to get over the utter ass whoopin put on AM I fear, based on Casper getting emotional in the interview on the boat, that AM continuing on for AC 37 is far from a sure thing.  Or if they do continue it will be without Casper in charge.  Fingers crossed the NYYC is not one and done. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

Hopefully it is so I won’t have to watch this crap again.

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2 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Ouch. That's a profoundly demoralizing way to end a campaign. The crew busts ass for nine days to get the boat back on the water, only to lose every race. For a cornucopia of reasons I hope this syndicate stays together. One most obvious reason at this moment is that the team that sticks together after this is a hardened team with the exceptionalism convincingly beaten out of them. This definitely seems to have worked for Ainslie's team over two campaigns. 

Speaking personally, I'm bummed. That boat was built a half mile from my shop. Boo hoo!

Now that the campaign is over and we do get to discuss major changes, I'm shifting gears back to where I was at the outset. LETS. HAVE. GOD. DAMN. TRYOUTS. Bust out the mule right now and let Gulari, Struble, CanfieldKotoun, Kirby, and all the other fast Americans with relevant non-keelboat experience steer for a hot minute. There's a two time moth world champion, engineer and professional sailor living in goddamn Detroit. And that's one guy! If terry doesn't like him, ignore terry for at least a month. If the boats are going to remain similar in the next edition (think AC72-AC50) the emphasis need not be on veterans who have a solid track record of leading a team through the process of ironing out a new boat (Barker on the AC72, Spithill on the AC72) and skippers can be recruited on different criteria. The kiwis picking Burling in 2017 looked pretty ballsy at the time, but it definitely didn't blow the guaranteed win that came from remembering that bicycles exist. The next American team needs to be faster than the team that wins this edition, not simply faster than the American team that just lost. 

DRC

Ps. fire quantum. All the other sails are norths made from different materials.

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1 hour ago, loneshark64 said:

They definitely spent the money to win and AM sure looked like the best boat at Christmas but the issues came out with more racing. So I can’t  blame the money, even though the DeVos family is the Antichrist.

I also don’t blame Dean. He was not going to best Ainslie or Spithill without a significant edge in other areas. He was selected knowing that and the team didn’t give him an edge. The boat looked hot at Christmas but it was flawed - rudder, foil control, software. Terry selected him and the rest because they were his guys. Sometimes your guys aren’t the best guys.

And the tactics weren’t great, or the sail choices since Christmas.

Terry is most at fault. 

I think the boat was fine. In my view after seeing the sails and sail trim, of UK and ITA, the US had very flat sails, which in the narrow range are fast. But over a wide range they do not develop the power and speed needed for a smooth fast boat (weather foiling or not). Flat sails have a narrow grove but when in that groove they are fast and it is difficult to maintain that narrow groove. And the difference between a full and flat sail on a high speed craft is not that great.

Having made many of my own sails and done my share of high speed sailing from windsurfing to land sailing. I am blaming the power unit, aka the sails and trim, on the US not being able to have the range needed for racing.

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2 hours ago, us7070 said:

I don't know much about Musk.., but I think his aim is to change the world, and I can only imagine that he would view the AC as much ado about nothing

Yes as much as Team Tesla would be an awesome challenge effort for many reasons, I agree that Musk would likely view the AC as a pointless waste of money. 

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4 hours ago, Rando said:

I would like to see the "SailX" syndicate compete for USA.  Elon Musk has a lot of good controls systems engineering talent at Tesla, SpaceX, probably Boring Co., too. And he's got money. 

People have too much of a god complex with Elon Musk.  I think you could pump his ego to get him to go for it, but they would need a lot of outside help to get up to speed.  He has succeeded because of his perseverance to make his visions come true, but they are not necessarily engineering marvels.  

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Didn’t think LR hit 50 ?

Pretty sure they did (on VE) several times, but happy to be proved wrong.

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5 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So for this cup, who will the yanks now be cheering for?

Where would you rather spend a summer? England or Sardegna?

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Where would you rather spend a summer? England or Sardegna?

Haha, my thinking. Especially since Italy has the Euro and no travel restrictions for EU citizens (assumed that C19 is no issue anymore). So, if the next Cup holder is not NZ, I'd prefer ITA - out of selfish convenience.

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I wonder if the NYYC's  DEFENDER trials didn't contribute to their historical dominance. Given boat costs now, at least crew tryouts seem in order. 

Edited by NeedAClew
Defender not challenger ooops
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Just now, NeedAClew said:

I wonder if the NYYC's challenger trials didn't contribute to their historical dominance. Given boat costs now, at least crew tryouts seem in order. 

They can have trials in mules all across the East and West coasts - and in Hawai'i

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I think the boat was fine. In my view after seeing the sails and sail trim, of UK and ITA, the US had very flat sails, which in the narrow range are fast. But over a wide range they do not develop the power and speed needed for a smooth fast boat (weather foiling or not). Flat sails have a narrow grove but when in that groove they are fast and it is difficult to maintain that narrow groove. And the difference between a full and flat sail on a high speed craft is not that great.

Having made many of my own sails and done my share of high speed sailing from windsurfing to land sailing. I am blaming the power unit, aka the sails and trim, on the US not being able to have the range needed for racing.

I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to these things, but the boom on AM looked so damn clunky compared to everybody else, particularly the boomless setups of LR and ETNZ. AM kept banging the end of the traveler like they needed an extra foot on each end. 

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On 1/29/2021 at 9:00 AM, underperformer said:

Americans are a funny bunch... blame it al on Barker!:D

From where I stand the boat isn't fast enough (designers to blame), the mainsail choice was wrong (sailmakers) and their way of communication definitely isn't up to standard (TH ??).  Also the boat seems very hard to control. Barker is just helming the thing. Even he cannot make a racehorse out of a (USA build)donkey. 

More embarrassing is that this team is in the top 2 budget wise and has been on the water the longest and they probably go home without a single race win.

I’m calling bullshit on this post. I’m an American and I think Dean did just fine. AM got smoked by a puff and they cratered the boat. It’s happened to all of us. If it hasn’t, you don’t race very much with boats that sail on the edge. 
 

Please don’t think I mean all of you, but I have no problem calling bullshit on the Kiwi cunts who just talk shit for no reason. 

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American Magic was a bitter sweet arrangement.  

- I detested most of the major sponsors and how they got their money (I settled on the idea that at least the money was going for a good cause).

- Part of the sponsorship caused them to not use North Sails, which I think gave them a disadvantage.

- I hated the frequently misused name of Patriot (if you have to call yourself one, you might not really be one...)

- I was disappointed that they didn't give good young American talent more prominent spots on the crew (except for basically grinders)

- I think TH did a very classy job of managing the program and in general did a very good job (i could see him managing the next campaign, but with changes in the crew).

- I though they designed and built a very good and beautiful boat (but I do think they were too conservative in some areas).  

- I was happy with the NYYC affiliation (this may come in contrast to my first point, but I like the history)

- It was a chance to return the cup to the US.  

Many people tend to over estimate the strength of a US based team because of the size and power of the country.  Remember that each team is only as good as the 100-200 people you assemble together.  In these times of international collaboration, each team is only as strong as the visions they have and the ability to get the correct people to work on it.  NZ has had tremendous success because they have had a group of leaders that have the vision to see what is needed and the confidence to do it.

I would like to see NASA be a partner next time....  Now that is some powerful engineering help!

etc...etc... 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

American Magic was a bitter sweet arrangement.  

- I detested most of the major sponsors and how they got their money (I settled on the idea that at least the money was going for a good cause).

- Part of the sponsorship caused them to not use North Sails, which I think gave them a disadvantage.

- I hated the frequently misused name of Patriot (if you have to call yourself one, you might not really be one...)

- I was disappointed that they didn't give good young American talent more prominent spots on the crew (except for basically grinders)

- I think TH did a very classy job of managing the program and in general did a very good job (i could see him managing the next campaign, but with changes in the crew).

- I though they designed and built a very good and beautiful boat (but I do think they were too conservative in some areas).  

- I was happy with the NYYC affiliation (this may come in contrast to my first point, but I like the history)

- It was a chance to return the cup to the US.  

Many people tend to over estimate the strength of a US based team because of the size and power of the country.  Remember that each team is only as good as the 100-200 people you assemble together.  In these times of international collaboration, each team is only as strong as the visions they have and the ability to get the correct people to work on it.  NZ has had tremendous success because they have had a group of leaders that have the vision to see what is needed and the confidence to do it.

I would like to see NASA be a partner next time....  Now that is some powerful engineering help!

etc...etc... 

 

 

All this plus they are a likeable team altogether.

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This is going to be a hot take, but this forum wouldn't be any fun without any hot takes. AM put up a good challenge and felt more like that a yacht club challenge than the corporate entity that Oracle was. When you look at how their Prada cup went, it seems the AM expected a design contest and instead found a sailing regatta. The one thing the ACWS and now Prada cup has shown is these boats are close, and just boat speed was not going to be good enough. The competitive attitude portrayed by the team just seemed lacking compared to the cut-throat nature of Ainslie and Jimmy. Two main things stood out to me:

  • Not owning mistakes:
    • After the first day of the Prada cup, the statement was "It was a bit of a lottery" instead of "We clearly missed some puffs"
    • After the capsize it was "We got unlucky because of a surprise puff" as opposed to "We made a mistake, easy to do, but we need strive to be better"
  • Lack of aggressiveness:
    • After the first race yesterday. Ken asked Terry "What do you need to do to get Plan A on the line?". Terry's response was "If they [Prada] get their timing right, we can't". I was shocked by that statement, if anyone enters a match racing start with that attitude you will never win the race. AM was so outclassed in the pre-start, they lost the races before even starting.

This team built a fast boat and were a gracious and likeable challenger, but they didn't show up with the fight and aggressiveness to win it on the racecourse.

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1 minute ago, sailer99 said:

This is going to be a hot take, but this forum wouldn't be any fun without any hot takes. AM put up a good challenge and felt more like that a yacht club challenge than the corporate entity that Oracle was. When you look at how their Prada cup went, it seems the AM expected a design contest and instead found a sailing regatta. The one thing the ACWS and now Prada cup has shown is these boats are close, and just boat speed was not going to be good enough. The competitive attitude portrayed by the team just seemed lacking compared to the cut-throat nature of Ainslie and Jimmy. Two main things stood out to me:

  • Not owning mistakes:
    • After the first day of the Prada cup, the statement was "It was a bit of a lottery" instead of "We clearly missed some puffs"
    • After the capsize it was "We got unlucky because of a surprise puff" as opposed to "We made a mistake, easy to do, but we need strive to be better"
  • Lack of aggressiveness:
    • After the first race yesterday. Ken asked Terry "What do you need to do to get Plan A on the line?". Terry's response was "If they [Prada] get their timing right, we can't". I was shocked by that statement, if anyone enters a match racing start with that attitude you will never win the race. AM was so outclassed in the pre-start, they lost the races before even starting.

This team built a fast boat and were a gracious and likeable challenger, but they didn't show up with the fight and aggressiveness to win it on the racecourse.

Sailer - 100% correct. The boats are very close in speed so tactics and boat handling made the difference. Prada owned the tactical side with good starts and then always covering when necessary. Prada also showed great boat handling skills. They rarely were off the foils and every maneuver was skillful.

The US team seemed ragged and lacked real aggression through this whole series.

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8 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

Terry's response was "If they [Prada] get their timing right, we can't". I was shocked by that statement

I was too.

Pre-start is all about making the moves that gain you control, and making the counter-moves that keep you from losing control.  AM allowed themselves to be maneuvered - 4 times in a row - into a position where they had no control and no options except to follow LR to the line.

That was hard to watch.

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4 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I think the boat was fine. In my view after seeing the sails and sail trim, of UK and ITA, the US had very flat sails, which in the narrow range are fast. But over a wide range they do not develop the power and speed needed for a smooth fast boat (weather foiling or not). Flat sails have a narrow grove but when in that groove they are fast and it is difficult to maintain that narrow groove. And the difference between a full and flat sail on a high speed craft is not that great.

Having made many of my own sails and done my share of high speed sailing from windsurfing to land sailing. I am blaming the power unit, aka the sails and trim, on the US not being able to have the range needed for racing.

Thanks. I wasn’t blaming the sails, what looked like problems to me we’re some problem with the rudder causing the shakes, software issues, and it looked like they had difficulty getting the foil up and down

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10 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Sailer - 100% correct. The boats are very close in speed so tactics and boat handling made the difference. Prada owned the tactical side with good starts and then always covering when necessary. Prada also showed great boat handling skills. They rarely were off the foils and every maneuver was skillful.

The US team seemed ragged and lacked real aggression through this whole series.

Agree. It falls on Terry H. The assessment seems to he is such a great guy. Well he’s a great guy who came in 4th out of 4.

I don’t understand the “they didn’t expect to win in this cycle” thing. That’s ridiculous. Next “cycle” it will be a different ballgame again. 

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51 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Is AM the only boat not flying North 3Di?

yup. I hate to say it but that's basically like saying that they were the only boat not using carbon fiber to build the hull.

DRC

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Having built and sailed two AC75's, AM have a lot of experience, and IP - flight control, twin mains, foil design etc......It's a solid foundation in which to go forward with another campaign. They wouldn't be starting from scratch, assuming the rule doesn't change much. It would be a pity to let that knowledge base go to waste. Terry should probably go into a management role like Dalts. Dean could coach/mentor, like Ray Davies. Rolling forward with your accumulated knowledge has been the key to NZ's success. Ben realises it. Iain Percy spoke of it in his interview with Shirley.

I hope the backers of AM do commit to another go. Having the NYYC participate is great for the event - but you do have to see it as a long game. Heck if Trump can raise 200 million in a matter of weeks for a phoney PAC, surely the richest country on earth can find a couple hundred mill for another crack at the Auld mug.

The team has lots going for it, they will come back.

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12 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

yup. I hate to say it but that's basically like saying that they were the only boat not using carbon fiber to build the hull.

DRC

I’m sorry, I find that hard to believe. I know North have a patent, but is there really no equivalent alternative. 

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9 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I’m sorry, I find that hard to believe. I know North have a patent, but is there really no equivalent alternative. 

For an america's cup which also requires teams to resurrect a previously badly failed soft-wing technology? YES. The development ground for all wing technology was the C-class from around 1968 through to getting pretty much eclipsed by the AC by 2016 or so. A bunch of sydicates tried soft wings and a lot of the reasons for failure come back to the materials just not being there yet. "We'll just make a twin skin soft wing" is already a highly daring design directive. "We'll just build a twin skin soft wing with sail material that we need to actively assert is just as good as 3di when selling it" is insanity. Magic made the most profound differentiating choice of the campaign right there. They were the first to lose. Chocking that up to personalities is misguided.

DRC

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16 minutes ago, barfy said:

The team has lots going for it, they will come back.

That will depend on whether their tame billionaire is happy to go another round after a pretty disastrous campaign.

I doubt there was an expectation to win, but am sure they expected a better outcome than they got.

I for one hope they are back, but I ain't cutting the cheques.

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4 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

At least AM's homegrown (Offshore Spars) mast did its job. I think the rest were all Southern Spars and how many failures and replacements were there of those? 

Nobody has a patent on prepreg.

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6 hours ago, us7070 said:

I don't know much about Musk.., but I think his aim is to change the world, and I can only imagine that he would view the AC as much ado about nothing

I disagree. He is very patriotic, regularly talking about the unique opportunities that America presents. I'm part, the space programme provides a platform to revitalise American confidence, and the A.C. Would also provide this. also likes tech for techs sake.

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1 minute ago, Chris UK said:

I disagree. He is very patriotic, regularly talking about the unique opportunities that America presents. I'm part, the space programme provides a platform to revitalise American confidence, and the A.C. Would also provide this. also likes tech for techs sake.

The space program has an actual purpose..., unlike the AC

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56 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I was too.

Pre-start is all about making the moves that gain you control, and making the counter-moves that keep you from losing control.  AM allowed themselves to be maneuvered - 4 times in a row - into a position where they had no control and no options except to follow LR to the line.

That was hard to watch.

What a bitch ass comment by TH.  You think Russell Coutts would ever say that???

 

How about Ben Ainslie???

 

Fuck no.

 

That was the culture at AM.  What ever happens happens but we are all nice guys so its ok.

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

People have too much of a god complex with Elon Musk.  I think you could pump his ego to get him to go for it, but they would need a lot of outside help to get up to speed.  He has succeeded because of his perseverance to make his visions come true, but they are not necessarily engineering marvels.  

Starlink is pretty cool. Upped my uplink and downlink speeds considerably with sub 30ms latencies. 

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17 hours ago, Barnyb said:

Since Perth?

Including Perth. NYYC went home early there too!

(Dennis was San Diego)

Yes, but the point was that the NYYC has not been successful in quite a long time, as aspiring defender or challenger, even within the smaller scope of its own country.

8 hours ago, us7070 said:

I don't know much about Musk.., but I think his aim is to change the world, and I can only imagine that he would view the AC as much ado about nothing

I could see Musk doing it under one circumstance -- if Bezos got involved.  Those two are having a tête-à-tête in the space race, with the veiled contentiousness bubbling to the surface more and more frequently.  Space is the first love for both.  The AC could offer some of the ego stroking he thrives on, but he already receives plenty of that, and the rigid ways in which the AC is governed would chafe him to no end.  And with SpaceX and Tesla already consuming all of his time, it would be a novelty side project, like the Boring Company, which, under more scrutiny isn't on par with his two main ventures.

But as far as SpaceX not being an "engineering marvel?"  The space community would disagree with that.  He's even got the Russians taking bitter potshots at it.

And, with respect to one of AM's three-comma-club members, Roger Penske, things have changed for him since the campaign was established, now that he has acquired his first love, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the IndyCar series.  I'm not clear on how involved he's been with AM, and he could certainly continue, but he's a car racer first, and that is his focus.  He''s a spry 83, but also a transplant patient.

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I think Terry is a good team boss, but he needs to get off the boat and gear his afterguard towards apparent wind sailing experts. 

 

It's hard to tell how much of it was shielding his team publicly, but there wasn't much that suggested he was honestly/accurately assessing their on the water gaps.

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Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

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9 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

I am sure Dean Barker is not the ass hole you are sure he is.

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It seemed to me that American Magic did not have reliable racing software.  In Thor Prada Cup they only turned back toward the starting line on time once. It seemed they didn’t know where the starting line was, like they didn’t have a stop watch....

They also seemed less than crisp on laylines, which also indicate lack of confidence in the race software. This could have been a software compatibility  issue with Race Management.  No one will tell you.

Finally, American Magic had a very aggressive small sail program.  They were almost always set up with the smallest sails, and they didn’t seem to have the ability to camber up as much as ETNZ and Prada. It one of the things we will never know is how the VPP program determined that this was the right direction.  Every VPP has it’s own formulas for analyzing the design trade offs.  The Protocol of this Cup restricted on the water testing in favor of simulation and virtual design tools.  Given the restrictions and the loss of boat on boat sailing ( canceled by Covid) there was almost no chance to reverse course based on real world results.

In the past, Competitors were able significantly alter their boats during the event. In Bermuda and Auckland the trials have been two weekend regattas.  And the chances to modify boats has been further restricted by Protocol.  If you have a problem, you have little chance to correct it.  This makes the Ineos turn around even more remarkable.

SHC

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46 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

I can assure you that confidentiality provisions are taken very seriously under the laws of the United States, which no doubt govern Dean’s contract with AM. All of that aside, you can say whatever you want about Dean as a sailor, but he certainly seems to be a decent person who wouldn’t do something so dickish to his teammates.

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52 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

I'm shocked and disgusted  at the things you guys are saying about Dean... do any of you guys even know him?

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American Magic out this week, another team in 2 weeks time, and then the challenger will lose the Americas Cup against ETNZ IMO.  NYYC need to start looking for the next Burling & Tuke, get the best designer brains together and build a team that can win. It can be done but it seems ETNZ have a monopoly on design ingenuity? I don't think any of the challengers can beat ETNZ but the 2 remaining boats have pedigree for 2 different reasons. Ineos have Grant Simmer who has been around a long time and has won and lost the cup. Luna Rossa have always been in the cup but have always been a fair way away from winning IMO. For the Italians they need to find what they always couldn't, that last 5-8% of boat speed. With Ineos it's hard to judge if they were sand bagging to a point early, I think they were but to what extent it's hard to tell. Simmer knows what it takes to win but he should have learned a lesson in the AC35. question is did he? ETNZ have had 6-9 months more development time and they already have the best team so it's very very hard to believe they let their foot of the pedal but time will tell. I'm tipping they'll comfortably win the Cup. Not the end of the world for the challengers if they can't beat the Kiwis as long as they learn from it.

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51 minutes ago, porthos said:

I can assure you that confidentiality provisions are taken very seriously under the laws of the United States, which no doubt govern Dean’s contract with AM. All of that aside, you can say whatever you want about Dean as a sailor, but he certainly seems to be a decent person who wouldn’t do something so dickish to his teammates.

USA law means jake shit here mate. He’s in another country at the moment. Americans need to understand that their laws only cover the USA. This is a problem that accompanies Americans when traveling overseas. 

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

American Magic was a bitter sweet arrangement.  

- I detested most of the major sponsors and how they got their money (I settled on the idea that at least the money was going for a good cause).

- Part of the sponsorship caused them to not use North Sails, which I think gave them a disadvantage.

- I hated the frequently misused name of Patriot (if you have to call yourself one, you might not really be one...)

- I was disappointed that they didn't give good young American talent more prominent spots on the crew (except for basically grinders)

- I think TH did a very classy job of managing the program and in general did a very good job (i could see him managing the next campaign, but with changes in the crew).

- I though they designed and built a very good and beautiful boat (but I do think they were too conservative in some areas).  

- I was happy with the NYYC affiliation (this may come in contrast to my first point, but I like the history)

- It was a chance to return the cup to the US.  

Many people tend to over estimate the strength of a US based team because of the size and power of the country.  Remember that each team is only as good as the 100-200 people you assemble together.  In these times of international collaboration, each team is only as strong as the visions they have and the ability to get the correct people to work on it.  NZ has had tremendous success because they have had a group of leaders that have the vision to see what is needed and the confidence to do it.

I would like to see NASA be a partner next time....  Now that is some powerful engineering help!

etc...etc... 

 

 

I don't think they'd call the boat Challenger.

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2 minutes ago, snaerk said:

Too soon, mayt

Surely not. It's also be a frosty day in hell before they let a woman drive it...

Edit: there was talk in TV coverage about rule changes because gender diversity yesterday. Really??

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51 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I'm shocked and disgusted  at the things you guys are saying about Dean... do any of you guys even know him?

Of course he will want his country of birth to win the cup if his syndicate loses. You think only Americans have a concept of patriotism?.

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4 minutes ago, mako23 said:

USA law means jake shit here mate. He’s in another country at the moment. Americans need to understand that their laws only cover the USA. This is a problem that accompanies Americans when traveling overseas. 

Yeah, that's not how that works. This wouldn't be a criminal case and NZ wouldn't be extraditing him. But he could get sued in the United States and absolutely served papers while in NZ. He could choose not to show up in court, in which case AM would get a galactically large default judgment against him and take all of his money.

Turns out I know exactly what I'm talking about.

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AM's sail wardrobe was geared around really flat mains, and smaller jibs than the rest. Along with their smallish foils, they targeted straight line speed in a fairly narrow wind range. It worked for a while in ACWS, and part of one race in the Prada Cup, but they got exposed in the light – being unable to induce the large camber needed to get up in minimal breeze. Their after guard was unable to contend with a light, puffy, shifty course.

The light wind races were long affairs – tough on the grinders. So just when you needed your tactician scanning for puffs, Terry had his head buried, grinding away. Their whole approach was flawed – they didn't produce a good all around boat – which is needed in Auckland, and thus they exited first. The capsize obviously didn't help either, but 10 straight losses in the Prada cup is a pretty damning stat.

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