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5 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So for this cup, who will the yanks now be cheering for?

Where would you rather spend a summer? England or Sardegna?

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Where would you rather spend a summer? England or Sardegna?

Haha, my thinking. Especially since Italy has the Euro and no travel restrictions for EU citizens (assumed that C19 is no issue anymore). So, if the next Cup holder is not NZ, I'd prefer ITA - out of selfish convenience.

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I wonder if the NYYC's  DEFENDER trials didn't contribute to their historical dominance. Given boat costs now, at least crew tryouts seem in order. 

Edited by NeedAClew
Defender not challenger ooops
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Just now, NeedAClew said:

I wonder if the NYYC's challenger trials didn't contribute to their historical dominance. Given boat costs now, at least crew tryouts seem in order. 

They can have trials in mules all across the East and West coasts - and in Hawai'i

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I think the boat was fine. In my view after seeing the sails and sail trim, of UK and ITA, the US had very flat sails, which in the narrow range are fast. But over a wide range they do not develop the power and speed needed for a smooth fast boat (weather foiling or not). Flat sails have a narrow grove but when in that groove they are fast and it is difficult to maintain that narrow groove. And the difference between a full and flat sail on a high speed craft is not that great.

Having made many of my own sails and done my share of high speed sailing from windsurfing to land sailing. I am blaming the power unit, aka the sails and trim, on the US not being able to have the range needed for racing.

I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to these things, but the boom on AM looked so damn clunky compared to everybody else, particularly the boomless setups of LR and ETNZ. AM kept banging the end of the traveler like they needed an extra foot on each end. 

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On 1/29/2021 at 9:00 AM, underperformer said:

Americans are a funny bunch... blame it al on Barker!:D

From where I stand the boat isn't fast enough (designers to blame), the mainsail choice was wrong (sailmakers) and their way of communication definitely isn't up to standard (TH ??).  Also the boat seems very hard to control. Barker is just helming the thing. Even he cannot make a racehorse out of a (USA build)donkey. 

More embarrassing is that this team is in the top 2 budget wise and has been on the water the longest and they probably go home without a single race win.

I’m calling bullshit on this post. I’m an American and I think Dean did just fine. AM got smoked by a puff and they cratered the boat. It’s happened to all of us. If it hasn’t, you don’t race very much with boats that sail on the edge. 
 

Please don’t think I mean all of you, but I have no problem calling bullshit on the Kiwi cunts who just talk shit for no reason. 

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American Magic was a bitter sweet arrangement.  

- I detested most of the major sponsors and how they got their money (I settled on the idea that at least the money was going for a good cause).

- Part of the sponsorship caused them to not use North Sails, which I think gave them a disadvantage.

- I hated the frequently misused name of Patriot (if you have to call yourself one, you might not really be one...)

- I was disappointed that they didn't give good young American talent more prominent spots on the crew (except for basically grinders)

- I think TH did a very classy job of managing the program and in general did a very good job (i could see him managing the next campaign, but with changes in the crew).

- I though they designed and built a very good and beautiful boat (but I do think they were too conservative in some areas).  

- I was happy with the NYYC affiliation (this may come in contrast to my first point, but I like the history)

- It was a chance to return the cup to the US.  

Many people tend to over estimate the strength of a US based team because of the size and power of the country.  Remember that each team is only as good as the 100-200 people you assemble together.  In these times of international collaboration, each team is only as strong as the visions they have and the ability to get the correct people to work on it.  NZ has had tremendous success because they have had a group of leaders that have the vision to see what is needed and the confidence to do it.

I would like to see NASA be a partner next time....  Now that is some powerful engineering help!

etc...etc... 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

American Magic was a bitter sweet arrangement.  

- I detested most of the major sponsors and how they got their money (I settled on the idea that at least the money was going for a good cause).

- Part of the sponsorship caused them to not use North Sails, which I think gave them a disadvantage.

- I hated the frequently misused name of Patriot (if you have to call yourself one, you might not really be one...)

- I was disappointed that they didn't give good young American talent more prominent spots on the crew (except for basically grinders)

- I think TH did a very classy job of managing the program and in general did a very good job (i could see him managing the next campaign, but with changes in the crew).

- I though they designed and built a very good and beautiful boat (but I do think they were too conservative in some areas).  

- I was happy with the NYYC affiliation (this may come in contrast to my first point, but I like the history)

- It was a chance to return the cup to the US.  

Many people tend to over estimate the strength of a US based team because of the size and power of the country.  Remember that each team is only as good as the 100-200 people you assemble together.  In these times of international collaboration, each team is only as strong as the visions they have and the ability to get the correct people to work on it.  NZ has had tremendous success because they have had a group of leaders that have the vision to see what is needed and the confidence to do it.

I would like to see NASA be a partner next time....  Now that is some powerful engineering help!

etc...etc... 

 

 

All this plus they are a likeable team altogether.

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This is going to be a hot take, but this forum wouldn't be any fun without any hot takes. AM put up a good challenge and felt more like that a yacht club challenge than the corporate entity that Oracle was. When you look at how their Prada cup went, it seems the AM expected a design contest and instead found a sailing regatta. The one thing the ACWS and now Prada cup has shown is these boats are close, and just boat speed was not going to be good enough. The competitive attitude portrayed by the team just seemed lacking compared to the cut-throat nature of Ainslie and Jimmy. Two main things stood out to me:

  • Not owning mistakes:
    • After the first day of the Prada cup, the statement was "It was a bit of a lottery" instead of "We clearly missed some puffs"
    • After the capsize it was "We got unlucky because of a surprise puff" as opposed to "We made a mistake, easy to do, but we need strive to be better"
  • Lack of aggressiveness:
    • After the first race yesterday. Ken asked Terry "What do you need to do to get Plan A on the line?". Terry's response was "If they [Prada] get their timing right, we can't". I was shocked by that statement, if anyone enters a match racing start with that attitude you will never win the race. AM was so outclassed in the pre-start, they lost the races before even starting.

This team built a fast boat and were a gracious and likeable challenger, but they didn't show up with the fight and aggressiveness to win it on the racecourse.

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1 minute ago, sailer99 said:

This is going to be a hot take, but this forum wouldn't be any fun without any hot takes. AM put up a good challenge and felt more like that a yacht club challenge than the corporate entity that Oracle was. When you look at how their Prada cup went, it seems the AM expected a design contest and instead found a sailing regatta. The one thing the ACWS and now Prada cup has shown is these boats are close, and just boat speed was not going to be good enough. The competitive attitude portrayed by the team just seemed lacking compared to the cut-throat nature of Ainslie and Jimmy. Two main things stood out to me:

  • Not owning mistakes:
    • After the first day of the Prada cup, the statement was "It was a bit of a lottery" instead of "We clearly missed some puffs"
    • After the capsize it was "We got unlucky because of a surprise puff" as opposed to "We made a mistake, easy to do, but we need strive to be better"
  • Lack of aggressiveness:
    • After the first race yesterday. Ken asked Terry "What do you need to do to get Plan A on the line?". Terry's response was "If they [Prada] get their timing right, we can't". I was shocked by that statement, if anyone enters a match racing start with that attitude you will never win the race. AM was so outclassed in the pre-start, they lost the races before even starting.

This team built a fast boat and were a gracious and likeable challenger, but they didn't show up with the fight and aggressiveness to win it on the racecourse.

Sailer - 100% correct. The boats are very close in speed so tactics and boat handling made the difference. Prada owned the tactical side with good starts and then always covering when necessary. Prada also showed great boat handling skills. They rarely were off the foils and every maneuver was skillful.

The US team seemed ragged and lacked real aggression through this whole series.

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8 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

Terry's response was "If they [Prada] get their timing right, we can't". I was shocked by that statement

I was too.

Pre-start is all about making the moves that gain you control, and making the counter-moves that keep you from losing control.  AM allowed themselves to be maneuvered - 4 times in a row - into a position where they had no control and no options except to follow LR to the line.

That was hard to watch.

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4 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I think the boat was fine. In my view after seeing the sails and sail trim, of UK and ITA, the US had very flat sails, which in the narrow range are fast. But over a wide range they do not develop the power and speed needed for a smooth fast boat (weather foiling or not). Flat sails have a narrow grove but when in that groove they are fast and it is difficult to maintain that narrow groove. And the difference between a full and flat sail on a high speed craft is not that great.

Having made many of my own sails and done my share of high speed sailing from windsurfing to land sailing. I am blaming the power unit, aka the sails and trim, on the US not being able to have the range needed for racing.

Thanks. I wasn’t blaming the sails, what looked like problems to me we’re some problem with the rudder causing the shakes, software issues, and it looked like they had difficulty getting the foil up and down

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10 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Sailer - 100% correct. The boats are very close in speed so tactics and boat handling made the difference. Prada owned the tactical side with good starts and then always covering when necessary. Prada also showed great boat handling skills. They rarely were off the foils and every maneuver was skillful.

The US team seemed ragged and lacked real aggression through this whole series.

Agree. It falls on Terry H. The assessment seems to he is such a great guy. Well he’s a great guy who came in 4th out of 4.

I don’t understand the “they didn’t expect to win in this cycle” thing. That’s ridiculous. Next “cycle” it will be a different ballgame again. 

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51 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Is AM the only boat not flying North 3Di?

yup. I hate to say it but that's basically like saying that they were the only boat not using carbon fiber to build the hull.

DRC

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Having built and sailed two AC75's, AM have a lot of experience, and IP - flight control, twin mains, foil design etc......It's a solid foundation in which to go forward with another campaign. They wouldn't be starting from scratch, assuming the rule doesn't change much. It would be a pity to let that knowledge base go to waste. Terry should probably go into a management role like Dalts. Dean could coach/mentor, like Ray Davies. Rolling forward with your accumulated knowledge has been the key to NZ's success. Ben realises it. Iain Percy spoke of it in his interview with Shirley.

I hope the backers of AM do commit to another go. Having the NYYC participate is great for the event - but you do have to see it as a long game. Heck if Trump can raise 200 million in a matter of weeks for a phoney PAC, surely the richest country on earth can find a couple hundred mill for another crack at the Auld mug.

The team has lots going for it, they will come back.

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12 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

yup. I hate to say it but that's basically like saying that they were the only boat not using carbon fiber to build the hull.

DRC

I’m sorry, I find that hard to believe. I know North have a patent, but is there really no equivalent alternative. 

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9 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I’m sorry, I find that hard to believe. I know North have a patent, but is there really no equivalent alternative. 

For an america's cup which also requires teams to resurrect a previously badly failed soft-wing technology? YES. The development ground for all wing technology was the C-class from around 1968 through to getting pretty much eclipsed by the AC by 2016 or so. A bunch of sydicates tried soft wings and a lot of the reasons for failure come back to the materials just not being there yet. "We'll just make a twin skin soft wing" is already a highly daring design directive. "We'll just build a twin skin soft wing with sail material that we need to actively assert is just as good as 3di when selling it" is insanity. Magic made the most profound differentiating choice of the campaign right there. They were the first to lose. Chocking that up to personalities is misguided.

DRC

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16 minutes ago, barfy said:

The team has lots going for it, they will come back.

That will depend on whether their tame billionaire is happy to go another round after a pretty disastrous campaign.

I doubt there was an expectation to win, but am sure they expected a better outcome than they got.

I for one hope they are back, but I ain't cutting the cheques.

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4 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

At least AM's homegrown (Offshore Spars) mast did its job. I think the rest were all Southern Spars and how many failures and replacements were there of those? 

Nobody has a patent on prepreg.

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6 hours ago, us7070 said:

I don't know much about Musk.., but I think his aim is to change the world, and I can only imagine that he would view the AC as much ado about nothing

I disagree. He is very patriotic, regularly talking about the unique opportunities that America presents. I'm part, the space programme provides a platform to revitalise American confidence, and the A.C. Would also provide this. also likes tech for techs sake.

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1 minute ago, Chris UK said:

I disagree. He is very patriotic, regularly talking about the unique opportunities that America presents. I'm part, the space programme provides a platform to revitalise American confidence, and the A.C. Would also provide this. also likes tech for techs sake.

The space program has an actual purpose..., unlike the AC

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56 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I was too.

Pre-start is all about making the moves that gain you control, and making the counter-moves that keep you from losing control.  AM allowed themselves to be maneuvered - 4 times in a row - into a position where they had no control and no options except to follow LR to the line.

That was hard to watch.

What a bitch ass comment by TH.  You think Russell Coutts would ever say that???

 

How about Ben Ainslie???

 

Fuck no.

 

That was the culture at AM.  What ever happens happens but we are all nice guys so its ok.

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

People have too much of a god complex with Elon Musk.  I think you could pump his ego to get him to go for it, but they would need a lot of outside help to get up to speed.  He has succeeded because of his perseverance to make his visions come true, but they are not necessarily engineering marvels.  

Starlink is pretty cool. Upped my uplink and downlink speeds considerably with sub 30ms latencies. 

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17 hours ago, Barnyb said:

Since Perth?

Including Perth. NYYC went home early there too!

(Dennis was San Diego)

Yes, but the point was that the NYYC has not been successful in quite a long time, as aspiring defender or challenger, even within the smaller scope of its own country.

8 hours ago, us7070 said:

I don't know much about Musk.., but I think his aim is to change the world, and I can only imagine that he would view the AC as much ado about nothing

I could see Musk doing it under one circumstance -- if Bezos got involved.  Those two are having a tête-à-tête in the space race, with the veiled contentiousness bubbling to the surface more and more frequently.  Space is the first love for both.  The AC could offer some of the ego stroking he thrives on, but he already receives plenty of that, and the rigid ways in which the AC is governed would chafe him to no end.  And with SpaceX and Tesla already consuming all of his time, it would be a novelty side project, like the Boring Company, which, under more scrutiny isn't on par with his two main ventures.

But as far as SpaceX not being an "engineering marvel?"  The space community would disagree with that.  He's even got the Russians taking bitter potshots at it.

And, with respect to one of AM's three-comma-club members, Roger Penske, things have changed for him since the campaign was established, now that he has acquired his first love, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the IndyCar series.  I'm not clear on how involved he's been with AM, and he could certainly continue, but he's a car racer first, and that is his focus.  He''s a spry 83, but also a transplant patient.

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I think Terry is a good team boss, but he needs to get off the boat and gear his afterguard towards apparent wind sailing experts. 

 

It's hard to tell how much of it was shielding his team publicly, but there wasn't much that suggested he was honestly/accurately assessing their on the water gaps.

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Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

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9 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

I am sure Dean Barker is not the ass hole you are sure he is.

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It seemed to me that American Magic did not have reliable racing software.  In Thor Prada Cup they only turned back toward the starting line on time once. It seemed they didn’t know where the starting line was, like they didn’t have a stop watch....

They also seemed less than crisp on laylines, which also indicate lack of confidence in the race software. This could have been a software compatibility  issue with Race Management.  No one will tell you.

Finally, American Magic had a very aggressive small sail program.  They were almost always set up with the smallest sails, and they didn’t seem to have the ability to camber up as much as ETNZ and Prada. It one of the things we will never know is how the VPP program determined that this was the right direction.  Every VPP has it’s own formulas for analyzing the design trade offs.  The Protocol of this Cup restricted on the water testing in favor of simulation and virtual design tools.  Given the restrictions and the loss of boat on boat sailing ( canceled by Covid) there was almost no chance to reverse course based on real world results.

In the past, Competitors were able significantly alter their boats during the event. In Bermuda and Auckland the trials have been two weekend regattas.  And the chances to modify boats has been further restricted by Protocol.  If you have a problem, you have little chance to correct it.  This makes the Ineos turn around even more remarkable.

SHC

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46 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

I can assure you that confidentiality provisions are taken very seriously under the laws of the United States, which no doubt govern Dean’s contract with AM. All of that aside, you can say whatever you want about Dean as a sailor, but he certainly seems to be a decent person who wouldn’t do something so dickish to his teammates.

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52 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Unlike the AM team I’m sure Dean Barker would want the Kiwis to successfully defend the AC.  Since he’s sort of unemployed I wonder if there’s anything to stop him taking a walk into ETNZ and have a chat about what worked for the AM team in regards to performance. I guess there might be some non disclosure rules, but they don’t have a lot of strength in NZ 

I'm shocked and disgusted  at the things you guys are saying about Dean... do any of you guys even know him?

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American Magic out this week, another team in 2 weeks time, and then the challenger will lose the Americas Cup against ETNZ IMO.  NYYC need to start looking for the next Burling & Tuke, get the best designer brains together and build a team that can win. It can be done but it seems ETNZ have a monopoly on design ingenuity? I don't think any of the challengers can beat ETNZ but the 2 remaining boats have pedigree for 2 different reasons. Ineos have Grant Simmer who has been around a long time and has won and lost the cup. Luna Rossa have always been in the cup but have always been a fair way away from winning IMO. For the Italians they need to find what they always couldn't, that last 5-8% of boat speed. With Ineos it's hard to judge if they were sand bagging to a point early, I think they were but to what extent it's hard to tell. Simmer knows what it takes to win but he should have learned a lesson in the AC35. question is did he? ETNZ have had 6-9 months more development time and they already have the best team so it's very very hard to believe they let their foot of the pedal but time will tell. I'm tipping they'll comfortably win the Cup. Not the end of the world for the challengers if they can't beat the Kiwis as long as they learn from it.

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51 minutes ago, porthos said:

I can assure you that confidentiality provisions are taken very seriously under the laws of the United States, which no doubt govern Dean’s contract with AM. All of that aside, you can say whatever you want about Dean as a sailor, but he certainly seems to be a decent person who wouldn’t do something so dickish to his teammates.

USA law means jake shit here mate. He’s in another country at the moment. Americans need to understand that their laws only cover the USA. This is a problem that accompanies Americans when traveling overseas. 

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

American Magic was a bitter sweet arrangement.  

- I detested most of the major sponsors and how they got their money (I settled on the idea that at least the money was going for a good cause).

- Part of the sponsorship caused them to not use North Sails, which I think gave them a disadvantage.

- I hated the frequently misused name of Patriot (if you have to call yourself one, you might not really be one...)

- I was disappointed that they didn't give good young American talent more prominent spots on the crew (except for basically grinders)

- I think TH did a very classy job of managing the program and in general did a very good job (i could see him managing the next campaign, but with changes in the crew).

- I though they designed and built a very good and beautiful boat (but I do think they were too conservative in some areas).  

- I was happy with the NYYC affiliation (this may come in contrast to my first point, but I like the history)

- It was a chance to return the cup to the US.  

Many people tend to over estimate the strength of a US based team because of the size and power of the country.  Remember that each team is only as good as the 100-200 people you assemble together.  In these times of international collaboration, each team is only as strong as the visions they have and the ability to get the correct people to work on it.  NZ has had tremendous success because they have had a group of leaders that have the vision to see what is needed and the confidence to do it.

I would like to see NASA be a partner next time....  Now that is some powerful engineering help!

etc...etc... 

 

 

I don't think they'd call the boat Challenger.

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2 minutes ago, snaerk said:

Too soon, mayt

Surely not. It's also be a frosty day in hell before they let a woman drive it...

Edit: there was talk in TV coverage about rule changes because gender diversity yesterday. Really??

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51 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I'm shocked and disgusted  at the things you guys are saying about Dean... do any of you guys even know him?

Of course he will want his country of birth to win the cup if his syndicate loses. You think only Americans have a concept of patriotism?.

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4 minutes ago, mako23 said:

USA law means jake shit here mate. He’s in another country at the moment. Americans need to understand that their laws only cover the USA. This is a problem that accompanies Americans when traveling overseas. 

Yeah, that's not how that works. This wouldn't be a criminal case and NZ wouldn't be extraditing him. But he could get sued in the United States and absolutely served papers while in NZ. He could choose not to show up in court, in which case AM would get a galactically large default judgment against him and take all of his money.

Turns out I know exactly what I'm talking about.

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AM's sail wardrobe was geared around really flat mains, and smaller jibs than the rest. Along with their smallish foils, they targeted straight line speed in a fairly narrow wind range. It worked for a while in ACWS, and part of one race in the Prada Cup, but they got exposed in the light – being unable to induce the large camber needed to get up in minimal breeze. Their after guard was unable to contend with a light, puffy, shifty course.

The light wind races were long affairs – tough on the grinders. So just when you needed your tactician scanning for puffs, Terry had his head buried, grinding away. Their whole approach was flawed – they didn't produce a good all around boat – which is needed in Auckland, and thus they exited first. The capsize obviously didn't help either, but 10 straight losses in the Prada cup is a pretty damning stat.

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AM chances of winning the cup and challenger series went out the window the day they capsized. To do what they did and turn things around to even compete in the semi's is incredible and hats off to them for that, but after that capsize the writing was on the wall. Never regained the confidence they had prior to the capsize which is understandable and after seeing the issues they had yesterday, justified. 

Personally I would love to see NYYC challenge again next time around and I think they they will. TH & DB are very likeable and the campaign was definitely stronger then the scorecard showed. In terms of finance for another stab at it, It's not like the club members are short of the $$$.  Even if DeVos and Hap decide they are fed up, I am sure they could find another billionaire to throw $200m or $300m their way. That being said, the current backers are smart people, they would 100 percent have known that the chances of winning the cup on your first go at it are extremely slim, especially so in this case with the head start LR & TNZ would have had which such a radical new design and the only other challenger, INEOS, being in their second cycle and the IP that comes with that time. The one common problem every new team has, no matter the size of the budget, is that money cant buy time! 

 TH seems like a top guy, he is an outstanding sailor & by the looks of things, a great leader and I think will continue on as a team principal or CEO. Maybe not necessarily as part of the sailing team. That said, it's hard to fully evaluate his ability as a tactician on hese boats given that he was grinding 50% of the time. He seems to have a good working relationship with the club & the $$ so for sure he is their guy to lead the campaign going forward.

 I think one of AM key mistakes, which could have ultimately prevented their capsize & the resulting downfall was not giving Goodie, as a world champion moth sailor, more responsibility. Would love to see him on the wheel or as tactician the next time around. The tactical decision making on these boats is so much more similar to the quick decision making thats seen so regularly in Moths, 49ers or other fast, apparent wind sailing classes which would play into Goodies hands.

Hopefully Deano will stay involved in the cup, he has a lot of years of experience which would be very valuable to any challenger campaign. If AM do continue, it will be interesting to see if he remains as helm or if they look elsewhere for someone to drive the boat, as I already said, Goody could be an option, Spithill could also qualify as American. TH isn't stupid though so i am sure that in the event that Dean is no longer helming for AM that he will still be offered a role as a coach or advisor, similar to what TNZ offered him when they hired Burling.

The teams starting software seemed a bit off imo so I don't think DB can take all the blame for their poor starts. I think this issue was then exaggerated post capsize when DB and the crew simply did not have the confidence in the Patriot 2.0 boat handling. It remains to be seen if he wants to do another cup cycle as a helm but with the amount of experience he has I am sure he won't go stuck for a drive and would be a valuable asset to any syndicate.

Also, bit of a side note, by all accounts DB is a top guy and some of the comments on these forums are despicable. The guy is a shit hot sailor and those comments are probably coming from the type of guys who come reaching in at the boat end of the start screaming for room and then rant in the bar about how nobody has any respect for the rules anymore.  Get a grip

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6 minutes ago, porthos said:

Yeah, that's not how that works. This wouldn't be a criminal case and NZ wouldn't be extraditing him. But he could get sued in the United States and absolutely served papers while in NZ. He could choose not to show up in court, in which case AM would get a galactically large default judgment against him and take all of his money.

Turns out I know exactly what I'm talking about.

It’s one thing to win a case in the USA getting him to pay while he’s in NZ ....not going to happen 

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5 minutes ago, mako23 said:

USA court ruling have no validity here

New Zealand has a process (via the Reciprocal Enforcement of Judgements Act of 1934 and some court rules) by which you can basically register a foreign judgment in New Zealand and enforce it there. In other words, yes, you can enforce a judgment from a court in the United States in New Zealand.

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10 minutes ago, porthos said:

New Zealand has a process (via a handful of laws and rules) by which you can basically register a foreign judgment in New Zealand and enforce it there. In other words, yes, you can enforce a judgment from a court in the United States in New Zealand.

Nope it’s basically Australia and the UK and commonwealth countries

https://www.wilsonharle.com/legal-information/nz-legal-guides/enforcing-foreign-judgments-in-new-zealand

this article at the bottom states that USA is not enforceable

 

You have to sue under NZ common law......good luck with that one 

 

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7 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Nope it’s basically Australia and the UK 

Australia has it's own reciprocal law with NZ and the Commonwealth countries have their own reciprocal law. But you can absolutely enforce a judgment from a US court in NZ. To be clear, the NZ court would have to agree to it, but there are defined principles a court would apply. In this case, which would be a simple breach of contract, there wouldn't be too many barriers to getting a NZ court to register the judgment.

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The legalities are irrelevant even though I suspect porthos is right. Dean will not sell out his employers for the duration of this cycle because he's not a douche bag and what fucking reason would he have to help ETNZ, anyway? He got kicked to the curb by ETNZ and has been treated like shit by plenty of Kiwi fans.

You all are a dense lot. 

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23 minutes ago, DJ4374 said:

AM chances of winning the cup and challenger series went out the window the day they capsized. To do what they did and turn things around to even compete in the semi's is incredible and hats off to them for that, but after that capsize the writing was on the wall. Never regained the confidence they had prior to the capsize which is understandable and after seeing the issues they had yesterday, justified. 

Personally I would love to see NYYC challenge again next time around and I think they they will. TH & DB are very likeable and the campaign was definitely stronger then the scorecard showed. In terms of finance for another stab at it, It's not like the club members are short of the $$$.  Even if DeVos and Hap decide they are fed up, I am sure they could find another billionaire to throw $200m or $300m their way. That being said, the current backers are smart people, they would 100 percent have known that the chances of winning the cup on your first go at it are extremely slim, especially so in this case with the head start LR & TNZ would have had which such a radical new design and the only other challenger, INEOS, being in their second cycle and the IP that comes with that time. The one common problem every new team has, no matter the size of the budget, is that money cant buy time! 

 TH seems like a top guy, he is an outstanding sailor & by the looks of things, a great leader and I think will continue on as a team principal or CEO. Maybe not necessarily as part of the sailing team. That said, it's hard to fully evaluate his ability as a tactician on hese boats given that he was grinding 50% of the time. He seems to have a good working relationship with the club & the $$ so for sure he is their guy to lead the campaign going forward.

 I think one of AM key mistakes, which could have ultimately prevented their capsize & the resulting downfall was not giving Goodie, as a world champion moth sailor, more responsibility. Would love to see him on the wheel or as tactician the next time around. The tactical decision making on these boats is so much more similar to the quick decision making thats seen so regularly in Moths, 49ers or other fast, apparent wind sailing classes which would play into Goodies hands.

Hopefully Deano will stay involved in the cup, he has a lot of years of experience which would be very valuable to any challenger campaign. If AM do continue, it will be interesting to see if he remains as helm or if they look elsewhere for someone to drive the boat, as I already said, Goody could be an option, Spithill could also qualify as American. TH isn't stupid though so i am sure that in the event that Dean is no longer helming for AM that he will still be offered a role as a coach or advisor, similar to what TNZ offered him when they hired Burling.

The teams starting software seemed a bit off imo so I don't think DB can take all the blame for their poor starts. I think this issue was then exaggerated post capsize when DB and the crew simply did not have the confidence in the Patriot 2.0 boat handling. It remains to be seen if he wants to do another cup cycle as a helm but with the amount of experience he has I am sure he won't go stuck for a drive and would be a valuable asset to any syndicate.

Also, bit of a side note, by all accounts DB is a top guy and some of the comments on these forums are despicable. The guy is a shit hot sailor and those comments are probably coming from the type of guys who come reaching in at the boat end of the start screaming for room and then rant in the bar about how nobody has any respect for the rules anymore.  Get a grip

I also hope that NYYC come back.

They have demonstrated they can assemble the technical component. 

TH's role will be reviewed by the syndicate. These are business folk from a country of innovation and technical know how who believe that they can win .  There is a lot TH got right but at the end of the day he and Devos are accountable for selecting a friends and family team rather than the best that money can buy.

 

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1 minute ago, porthos said:

Australia has it's own reciprocal law with NZ. But you can absolutely enforce a judgment from a US court in NZ. To be clear, the NZ court would have to agree to it, but there are defined principles a court would apply. In this case, which would be a simple breach of contract, there wouldn't be too many barriers to getting a NZ court to register the judgment.

Read the link I sent you in the other message

I use to work for the Justice Department if New Zealand, in the area of company law. No I’m not a lawyer but I have some experience in the law area. New Zealand courts have been rather summary with Americans bringing ill prepared cases into NZ. I remember a extradition case lasting five minutes and the plaintiff being held in contempt. 

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4 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Read the link I sent you in the other message

I use to work for the Justice Department if New Zealand, in the area of company law. No I’m not a lawyer but I have some experience in the law area. New Zealand courts have been rather summary with Americans bringing ill prepared cases into NZ. I remember a extradition case lasting five minutes and the plaintiff being held in contempt. 

I did and it confirms exactly what I said. AM would have to sue Dean in a NZ court and file a motion for summary judgment based on the US judgment. This wouldn't be an extradition case. It would be a money judgment, which your link confirms can be enforced by NZ courts. And, yes, I am a lawyer.

In any event, this is a stupid conversation and we should get back to talking about sailing.

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5 minutes ago, porthos said:

 

I did and it confirms exactly what I said. AM would have to sue Dean in a NZ court and file a motion for summary judgment based on the US judgment. This wouldn't be an extradition case. It would be a money judgment, which your link confirms can be enforced by NZ courts. And, yes, I am a lawyer.

Who doesn’t know NZ common law 

Also being a lawyer in the USA means nothing here....it might surprise we have our own legal system, as incredible as that sounds. We are a British legal system, which means its done correctly. 
 

Also suing in NZ for breach of confidentiality in NZ is a lot harder than USA. We have this concept that you use to have but don’t now, called freedom of speech. 

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4 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Who doesn’t know NZ common law 

Also being a lawyer in the USA means nothing here....it might surprise we have our own legal system, as incredible as that sounds. We are a British legal system, which means its done correctly. 

I have nothing but respect for New Zealand, and while I haven't been involved in litigation in NZ (I have in Australia), I'm sure your legal system is top notch. You're good people, which is why Dean wouldn't do what you posited to begin with.

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6 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Haha, my thinking. Especially since Italy has the Euro and no travel restrictions for EU citizens (assumed that C19 is no issue anymore). So, if the next Cup holder is not NZ, I'd prefer ITA - out of selfish convenience.

It's all about the money. Where do the sponsors come from?  Airbus, BMW, INEOS, Prada, Pirelli...the event wants to be in a European venue with a Euro time zone that works for the maximum potential viewership where people follow the sport. When 25% of the challengers go down in a crash and come back 2 weeks later hobbled and lackluster you have a problem. You need more participants. Not to mention the fact that a 6 leg, 25min (avg leg 4.25 mins) race that's over within the first 2 minutes is pathetically unwatchable. We waited 3 years for this sh*t??? Really? It was over in an instant for the US literally and, what, they raced 8-10 25 minute races at 2am in the morning US time? No sponsor will put up with that going forward not even with a friendly billionaire to underwrite a portion of it. So far there's been 1 race that had any sort of interesting lead changes so watching a parade of two boats 500 meters apart is a complete waste of time even despite how much the announcers pretend to keep the audience interested. How many times do you hear the sort of drivel from announcers that the race hangs in the balance of a complete disaster on the leader's part in Formula 1 or NASCAR which the AC aspires to be and where you need to invest $150M over 3 years with little to no return on your investment in the end?  

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22 minutes ago, porthos said:

I have nothing but respect for New Zealand, and while I haven't been involved in litigation in NZ (I have in Australia), I'm sure your legal system is top notch. You're good people, which is why Dean wouldn't do what you posited to begin with.

My family business tried to sue for a breach of trade on two former employees in NZ. I’d didn’t even get to court, the contracts they had signed were worthless in regards to litigation. We found out the hard way. Just like The USA the courts are governed by legal precedents. In fact judicial precedents governs our freedoms and rights more than any legislation. We have no real Bill of rights like the USA. However the protection they provide is very strong. So just like the USA case law is super critical. Our courts in reality are just as independent as American. We also do not allow elected judges who are not impartial. Also for the common citizen it’s easier to get redress against the state than the USA.  There are no circuit courts to drag things out 

Nor do we have Pfizer courts to crush citizens 

 

Also I have no grudge against the USA at all. I have visited your country many times and have enjoyed my time there. I also have respect for the many talented people of the USA. 

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2 minutes ago, mako23 said:

My family business tried to sue for a breach of trade on two former employees in NZ. I’d didn’t even get to court, the contracts they had signed were worthless in regards to litigation. We found out the hard way. Just like The USA the courts are governed by legal precedents. In fact judicial precedents governs our freedoms and rights more than any legislation. We have no real Bill of rights like the USA. However the protection they provide is very strong. So just like the USA case law is super critical. Our courts in reality are just as independent as American. We also do not allow elected judges who are not impartial. Also for the common citizen it’s easier to get redress against the state than the USA.  There are no circuit courts to drag things out 

Just in case you were wondering, most rights or claims available to an aggrieved party here in the US are governed more often by common law rather than any statute. Any claim, be it one based on common law or one based on a statute are always subject to prior precedents (i.e., how courts considering such claims have ruled previously).  And you may also be interested to know that being able to sue an employee for breach of trade (which we call "noncompetition" agreements here) depends on the state. Some states allow it, some don't.  Our bill of rights only addresses the relationship between the government and a citizen and has nothing to do with disputes between private parties.

In any event, cheers.

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On 1/30/2021 at 5:34 AM, enigmatically2 said:

I must admit I find the idea of composites bending a bit odd too.

But I'm not so convinced the accident has caused the speed issues. I just don't think they have improved when GB and LR have.

You're assuming they're only made from carbon. You might find more than a few of them are steel with a carbon skin. 

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14 minutes ago, shearwater said:

It's all about the money. Where do the sponsors come from?  Airbus, BMW, INEOS, Prada, Pirelli...the event wants to be in a European venue with a Euro time zone that works for the maximum potential viewership where people follow the sport. When 25% of the challengers go down in a crash and come back 2 weeks later hobbled and lackluster you have a problem. You need more participants. Not to mention the fact that a 6 leg, 25min (avg leg 4.25 mins) race that's over within the first 2 minutes is pathetically unwatchable. We waited 3 years for this sh*t??? Really? It was over in an instant for the US literally and, what, they raced 8-10 25 minute races at 2am in the morning US time? No sponsor will put up with that going forward not even with a friendly billionaire to underwrite a portion of it. So far there's been 1 race that had any sort of interesting lead changes so watching a parade of two boats 500 meters apart is a complete waste of time even despite how much the announcers pretend to keep the audience interested. How many times do you hear the sort of drivel from announcers that the race hangs in the balance of a complete disaster on the leader's part in Formula 1 or NASCAR which the AC aspires to be and where you need to invest $150M over 3 years with little to no return on your investment in the end?  

Ok shall we in NZ just hand the cup to Europe without a fight. We in NZ don’t care about northern hemisphere viewing figures. Nor do we care about Norther Hemisphere companies.  If you want the cup come and get it. If it’s too hard for you then go away and do something else. 

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11 minutes ago, porthos said:

Just in case you were wondering, most rights or claims available to an aggrieved party here in the US are governed more often by common law rather than any statute. Any claim, be it one based on common law or one based on a statute are always subject to prior precedents (i.e., how courts considering such claims have ruled previously).  And you may also be interested to know that being able to sue an employee for breach of trade (which we call "noncompetition" agreements here) depends on the state. Some states allow it, some don't.  Our bill of rights only addresses the relationship between the government and a citizen and has nothing to do with disputes between private parties.

In any event, cheers.

Yes definitely cheers. 
I was aware common law was important in the USA but not to the degree as you state. Always happy to learn something 

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well in hindsight I think patriot was built too light,  IMHO  both the observed "cant flapping" , "rudder judder" are  the result of excessive hull movement.  This movement was the ultimate cause of the breakup of the skin in the crash and also was the reason why they were in the habit of not releasing the backstays under load.  The rudder judder was there from the beginning and should have been fixable/fixed if the problem was just in the rudder or its controls. the reason they couldn't/didn't was because the root cause was she was wiggling her arse......  If airbus cannot fix a control surface flutter the problem must be fairly major!

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4 minutes ago, breezie said:

well in hindsight I think patriot was built too light,  IMHO  both the observed "cant flapping" , "rudder judder" are  the result of excessive hull movement.  This movement was the ultimate cause of the breakup of the skin in the crash and also was the reason why they were in the habit of not releasing the backstays under load.  The rudder judder was there from the beginning and should have been fixable/fixed if the problem was just in the rudder or its controls. the reason they couldn't/didn't was because the root cause was she was wiggling her arse......  If airbus cannot fix a control surface flutter the problem must be fairly major!

In the America’s Cup in 92 the NZ boat nzl-20 was so flimsy that it started to buckle when under load. When asked what to do if they saw a bulge forming...the reply was ...go and sit on it

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Old boat builder saying;

“If it breaks its too light 

If it doesn’t break it’s too heavy “

 

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19 minutes ago, breezie said:

well in hindsight I think patriot was built too light,  IMHO  both the observed "cant flapping" , "rudder judder" are  the result of excessive hull movement.  This movement was the ultimate cause of the breakup of the skin in the crash and also was the reason why they were in the habit of not releasing the backstays under load.  The rudder judder was there from the beginning and should have been fixable/fixed if the problem was just in the rudder or its controls. the reason they couldn't/didn't was because the root cause was she was wiggling her arse......  If airbus cannot fix a control surface flutter the problem must be fairly major!

There was minimum and maximum weight. The boats are all incredibly close in weight, even in terms of distribution. So while they may have been light in some parts, overall it was not a “light boat”.

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36 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Ok shall we in NZ just hand the cup to Europe without a fight. We in NZ don’t care about northern hemisphere viewing figures. Nor do we care about Norther Hemisphere companies.  If you want the cup come and get it. If it’s too hard for you then go away and do something else. 

No.....you should fight to keep the Cup....and probably will win this time.....but if Europe and USA didn't show up....it would lose all significance....it bodes well for New Zealand on their efforts to help Patriot.....you could never imagine the NYYC doing this on their 132 year run....quite the opposite....they bent the rules to keep the Cup

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11 minutes ago, Redreuben said:

Old boat builder saying;

“If it breaks its too light 

If it doesn’t break it’s too heavy “

 

ahh i think thats a YOUNG boatbuilder saying ..  an old boatbuilder would say if its not too heavy its not heavy enough

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3 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

There was minimum and maximum weight. The boats are all incredibly close in weight, even in terms of distribution. So while they may have been light in some parts, overall it was not a “light boat”.

yes i meant "light" in terms of where they put the weight not overall weight

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2 minutes ago, breezie said:

ahh i think thats a YOUNG boatbuilder saying ..  an old boatbuilder's grandfather would say if its not too heavy its not heavy enough

Time's have changed since the Cal 40 and Merlin hit the water.

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45 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

You're assuming they're only made from carbon. You might find more than a few of them are steel with a carbon skin. 

Wtf? If you know anything about engineering ( composite ) conventional) you would understand there is NO benefit from having steel as a core sandwiched in carbon.

 

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Just now, Baconator said:

Wtf? If you know anything about engineering ( composite ) conventional) you would understand there is NO benefit from having steel as a core sandwiched in carbon.

 

Well you better tell ETNZ that there wrong, because that’s what there doing. Also airbus use a aluminum carbon composite  on the A380 skin. 

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3 minutes ago, Baconator said:

Wtf? If you know anything about engineering ( composite ) conventional) you would understand there is NO benefit from having steel as a core sandwiched in carbon.

 

You expose yourself there buddy. In actual fact, it's common practice to do so. 

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5 minutes ago, Baconator said:

Wtf? If you know anything about engineering ( composite ) conventional) you would understand there is NO benefit from having steel as a core sandwiched in carbon.

 

Actually there are a few. Steel has properties that carbon doesn’t.  Combining the two can give you the best of both worlds 

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17 minutes ago, AVALANINIA said:

No.....you should fight to keep the Cup....and probably will win this time.....but if Europe and USA didn't show up....it would lose all significance....it bodes well for New Zealand on their efforts to help Patriot.....you could never imagine the NYYC doing this on their 132 year run....quite the opposite....they bent the rules to keep the Cup

As long as one syndicate turns up we’re not to fussed. Eventually a Billionaires ego will get the better of him and challenge

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1 hour ago, shearwater said:

It's all about the money. Where do the sponsors come from?  Airbus, BMW, INEOS, Prada, Pirelli...the event wants to be in a European venue with a Euro time zone that works for the maximum potential viewership where people follow the sport. When 25% of the challengers go down in a crash and come back 2 weeks later hobbled and lackluster you have a problem. You need more participants. Not to mention the fact that a 6 leg, 25min (avg leg 4.25 mins) race that's over within the first 2 minutes is pathetically unwatchable. We waited 3 years for this sh*t??? Really? It was over in an instant for the US literally and, what, they raced 8-10 25 minute races at 2am in the morning US time? No sponsor will put up with that going forward not even with a friendly billionaire to underwrite a portion of it. So far there's been 1 race that had any sort of interesting lead changes so watching a parade of two boats 500 meters apart is a complete waste of time even despite how much the announcers pretend to keep the audience interested. How many times do you hear the sort of drivel from announcers that the race hangs in the balance of a complete disaster on the leader's part in Formula 1 or NASCAR which the AC aspires to be and where you need to invest $150M over 3 years with little to no return on your investment in the end?  

Welcome to the America’s Cup, it has always been thus and yet it seems to endure regardless. 

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

As long as one syndicate turns up we’re not to fussed. Eventually a Billionaires ego will get the better of him and challenge

I just read an interesting article by someone who has lived in both countries and saying the sport in each nation couldn't be more different....sailing in the US is seen as a past time for the rich....interesting the since the Cup changed hands in 83....the USA has won 5 times ..lost 6....won twice as a challenger....NZ  had won 3 times....lost 6 times...won twice as Challenger

 

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21 minutes ago, Baconator said:

Wtf? If you know anything about engineering ( composite ) conventional) you would understand there is NO benefit from having steel as a core sandwiched in carbon.

 

Are you still here, you trolling little turd?  STFU and listen to the wisdom of those who have a clue.

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15 minutes ago, mako23 said:

As long as one syndicate turns up we’re not to fussed. Eventually a Billionaires ego will get the better of him and challenge

Good point.....it is better with more challengers.....the 2000-2003 Cup's were great....no matter what they do in USA....it will never be a popular spectator sport...before I started sailing.....all I knew about yachting was that Errol Flynn had one

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