cbulger 164 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 10 hours ago, pusslicker said: This is kind of bullshit. Americans have won the cup more than you since you have been involved while not even giving a shit. That combined with the Kiwi's sublime ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and it may not be so long. You cocky, insecure fucks will lose it sooner than you think. We win a lotta Cups, but can’t live in the past. We won the last 2 cups by hiring kiwis and aussies to run our campaigns and drive our boats. And we won by outspending the competition and by running extra long series so we could copy kiwi technologies. Afraid we need a bit more #8 wire attitude before we will be able to mount a proper American challenge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
terrafirma 1,341 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Sounds like NYYC Club will be back. That's great news... https://fb.watch/4rFBw7IOkQ/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Enzedel92 139 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 25 minutes ago, terrafirma said: Sounds like NYYC Club will be back. That's great news... https://fb.watch/4rFBw7IOkQ/ Where in the interview did they say NYYC will participate in the 37AC ? I must have missed it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
terrafirma 1,341 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said: Where in the interview did they say NYYC will participate in the 37AC ? I must have missed it. Yes you missed it. Watch it again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Alchemist 1,433 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/23/2021 at 8:53 PM, terrafirma said: Sadly for Americans who are passionate about the "Americas Cup" that America as a country are unlikely to ever win the Cup for a long time. They made it very hard for the challengers in so many ways for over 100 years until Australia came along and broke the stranglehold. And now we have one of the smallest countries in the world appear seemingly unbeatable. I wonder, we will see America challenge again after some would review as a disastrous campaign? And now I believe we may have Country of citizenship what does America have in it's wardrobe to be a threat once again? No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others. NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups.. NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire. A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ. Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered. After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR. They may never be able to get a sponsor. It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup. AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement. UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 20 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said: No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others. NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups.. NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire. A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ. Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered. After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR. They may never be able to get a sponsor. It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup. AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement. UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement. Ok, so I'm not sure if this is a troll or not since some of this is wrong and some is right. But here goes my view. 1. NZ didn't have 1 year's advantage - more like 6 months but less over Prada. 2. I'm not sure why it is a ransom or fictitious. We don't know if it will go ahead for sure as it is one of many options floated (I for one consider it more of a bargaining chip against the Government, but fuck knows). If anyone pays for it to be held in the UK, I don't understand how it could be considered ransom since it is a willing exchange of money for hosting rights which is what happens all the time. 3. I agree that NZ's days in the cup are numbered (shrug). However, I don't see their actions as being afraid, but rather trying to leverage (VERY HARD) their position as cup holder for cash. 4. So I'm not sure that ETNZ have EVERY been selected as the Challenger of Record, but yes I agree that they have not showered themselves in glory. 5. If ETNZ and INEOS reach an agreement to host the subsequent AC in Auckland, as porthos has pointed out it will be unenforceable but will surely be backed up with a contract that carries HEAVY financial penalties (think $100 Million PLUS) for non-performance. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mako23 632 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 36 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said: No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others. NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups.. NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire. A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ. Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered. After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR. They may never be able to get a sponsor. It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup. AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement. UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement. Another anti NZ rant from the alchemist 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marlowe 218 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 3 hours ago, jaysper said: ........ 4. So I'm not sure that ETNZ have EVERY been selected as the Challenger of Record, but yes I agree that they have not showered themselves in glory. ........ Pretty sure ETNZ have never been CoR. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rennmaus 3,064 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 5 hours ago, The_Alchemist said: No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others. NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups.. NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire. A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ. Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered. After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR. They may never be able to get a sponsor. It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup. AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement. UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement. Bold: This is the danger. Taking into account that most of the Defender/CoR relationships fall foul during their first Cup together, even huge fines in a side agreement may not help. Usually these contracts have loopholes and ambiguities, and need renegotiations when they should come into effect. Ready for some more litigation? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 46 minutes ago, Rennmaus said: Ready for some more litigation? Ummm, no? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marlowe 218 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Rennmaus said: .......... Taking into account that most of the Defender/CoR relationships fall foul during their first Cup together .............. Only once has the same club been CoR for two consecutive cycles - YC d'Hyeres from France in 1977 and 1980. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WetHog 581 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 9 hours ago, terrafirma said: Sounds like NYYC Club will be back. That's great news... https://fb.watch/4rFBw7IOkQ/ From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”. Still some wiggle room in that quote. I hope they come back for my sake. I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out. WetHog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 hour ago, WetHog said: From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”. Still some wiggle room in that quote. I hope they come back for my sake. I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out. WetHog You're not thinking laterally Hoggie. If they quit, it becomes more collectible. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
idontwan2know 230 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 If 1 of the big 3 sponsors is already in, that's big. Money attracts more money and the first big fish is always the hardest to land. The rest feel more comfortable joining something that already looks like it's going to be successful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NZK 591 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 @jaysper Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle?? 55 minutes ago, idontwan2know said: If 1 of the big 3 sponsors is already in, that's big. Money attracts more money and the first big fish is always the hardest to land. The rest feel more comfortable joining something that already looks like it's going to be successful. Yep - sounds like DeVos is in again (heard some positive feedback from crew members). Even if the other 2 bail then he should be able to gather some more cash - I wonder if just having a team again has gotten a lot of more of the NYYC members all excited and wanting to be part of the next one.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, NZK said: Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle?? Did they actually have merch? If so, absolutely! And if you can find any merch from 1995 (?) Russian Challenge when they tried to build a timber IACC you are RICH! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EYESAILOR 1,653 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 27 minutes ago, NZK said: @jaysper Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle?? Yep - sounds like DeVos is in again (heard some positive feedback from crew members). Even if the other 2 bail then he should be able to gather some more cash - I wonder if just having a team again has gotten a lot of more of the NYYC members all excited and wanting to be part of the next one.... Money will not really start rolling in until an event is announced that they can challenge for. "If and when there is the next AC , would you like to contribute?" is way less compelling than "Are you in for 'Bring Back the Cup 2024' ?" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Stuck between a rock and a hard place, out of the frying pan and into the fire. Cup seems to either have been in the hands of a billionaire who was a narcissistic person with sharp business scruples or probably decent people who start compromising in an endless scramble for cash for a good end but the means aren't good. Maybe JR isn't a narcissist. That world be good. . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 23 minutes ago, NeedAClew said: probably decent people who start compromising in an endless scramble for cash for a good end but the means aren't good. If you start down the road of means justifying the ends, there is almost no place you can't find yourself if you're not careful. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
accnick 1,747 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 58 minutes ago, jaysper said: Did they actually have merch? If so, absolutely! And if you can find any merch from 1995 (?) Russian Challenge when they tried to build a timber IACC you are RICH! The timber boat was from Yugoslavia, and was never finished. The Russian boats were both carbon. One was built in an old missile factory, and had the most beautiful titanium mast fittings I had ever seen, although they were on an agricultural, overweight carbon mast. At one point, memorabilia from the Russian team representing the Leningrad Yacht Club was available (It was still called Leningrad Yacht Club in 1992, not St. Petersburg Yacht Club). I had one of their team jackets, which was cool. Unfortunately, I gave it to to my rabidly anti-Communist brother-in-law as a joke. I suspect he burned it. Wish I had it now! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 minute ago, accnick said: The timber boat was from Yugoslavia, and was never finished. The Russian boats were both carbon. One was built in an old missile factory, and had the most beautiful titanium mast fittings I had ever seen, although they were on an agricultural, overweight carbon mast. At one point, memorabilia from the Russian team representing the Leningrad Yacht Club was available (It was still called Leningrad Yacht Club in 1992, not St. Petersburg Yacht Club). I had one of their team jackets, which was cool. Unfortunately, I gave it to to my rabidly anti-Communist brother-in-law as a joke. I suspect he burned it. Wish I had it now! Ah! Thanks for the correction. I have no problem with people being rabidly anti-communist, but to the point of burning a nice jacket? Pfft! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
terrafirma 1,341 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 12 hours ago, jaysper said: 13 hours ago, WetHog said: From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”. Still some wiggle room in that quote. I hope they come back for my sake. I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out. WetHog You're not thinking laterally Hoggie. If they quit, it becomes more collectibl The fact that the boats are staying there is a good sign. I think Terry knows more but is doing the right thing until there is some certainty around the next event? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 39 minutes ago, terrafirma said: The fact that the boats are staying there is a good sign. I think Terry knows more but is doing the right thing until there is some certainty around the next event? I think on the whole they were a good team. I would even go so far as to say that without the accident, their boat might have been faster than LR. I don't think they would have beaten LR however as Deano and Hutch were obvious weaknesses IMO and at the pointy end of the regatta, Francesco and Jimmy would have put them to the sword. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Alchemist 1,433 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 2 hours ago, jaysper said: I think on the whole they were a good team. I would even go so far as to say that without the accident, their boat might have been faster than LR. I don't think they would have beaten LR however as Deano and Hutch were obvious weaknesses IMO and at the pointy end of the regatta, Francesco and Jimmy would have put them to the sword. You never know. I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Alchemist 1,433 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/24/2021 at 10:16 PM, jaysper said: Ok, so I'm not sure if this is a troll or not since some of this is wrong and some is right. But here goes my view. 1. NZ didn't have 1 year's advantage - more like 6 months but less over Prada. 2. I'm not sure why it is a ransom or fictitious. We don't know if it will go ahead for sure as it is one of many options floated (I for one consider it more of a bargaining chip against the Government, but fuck knows). If anyone pays for it to be held in the UK, I don't understand how it could be considered ransom since it is a willing exchange of money for hosting rights which is what happens all the time. 3. I agree that NZ's days in the cup are numbered (shrug). However, I don't see their actions as being afraid, but rather trying to leverage (VERY HARD) their position as cup holder for cash. 4. So I'm not sure that ETNZ have EVERY been selected as the Challenger of Record, but yes I agree that they have not showered themselves in glory. 5. If ETNZ and INEOS reach an agreement to host the subsequent AC in Auckland, as porthos has pointed out it will be unenforceable but will surely be backed up with a contract that carries HEAVY financial penalties (think $100 Million PLUS) for non-performance. Those are fair answers. 1) We really do not know how much of a lead NZ had because they had been working on the concept for quite a while before it was disclosed to the other challengers. We also had the foil arm problems that delayed teams like AM from launching for months. No real world validation of the brand new simulation models is very significant. 2) I am being a little harsh because of my disdain for a 1:1 match. It just violates the current principles of the AM and the only reason you would do that is to raise money or to artificially hang onto the cup as long as possible. Neither shows good sportsmanship and indicates some "fear" of participating in a cup without those unprecedented restrictions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 39 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said: You never know. I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed. Looking at Deanos past performances and how he and Hutch performed as a team in Auckland, do you HONESTLY think they could have won? I don't. I am on record here in about October or November picking them as the challengers but after their appalling tactical decision making, it became obvious to me that a good boat was being let down by poor crew. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 34 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said: Those are fair answers. 1) We really do not know how much of a lead NZ had because they had been working on the concept for quite a while before it was disclosed to the other challengers. We also had the foil arm problems that delayed teams like AM from launching for months. No real world validation of the brand new simulation models is very significant. 2) I am being a little harsh because of my disdain for a 1:1 match. It just violates the current principles of the AM and the only reason you would do that is to raise money or to artificially hang onto the cup as long as possible. Neither shows good sportsmanship and indicates some "fear" of participating in a cup without those unprecedented restrictions. I personally think the whole Isle if Wight and 1:1 is a negotiating ploy with the government. However you don't need to look far on these boards to see how disappointed I am with their behaviour generally and in particular the suggestion that they want to impose the class of boat for the subsequent cup cycle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
strider470 2,142 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said: You never know. I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed. AM were very unlucky. I hope they and LR will be invited for AC37. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
idontwan2know 230 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Have we heard more about potential rudder issues on Patriot? Deano certainly looked like he was hanging on for dear life and being shaken to death by the wheel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zaal 694 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 From what I understood Max Sirena, in a recent interview, told that TH will be again in charge, and that AM is ready to start. It will be interesting to see if he'll keep DB at the helm, or maybe put there PG. I'm expecting also a great synergy between AM and the Usa Olympic sailing team, now led by Paul Cayard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mako23 632 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 If they rumours are true and AM are coming back, all I can say is that they will be gladly accepted back here in NZ. TH struck me as a really decent guy and the whole crew conducted themselves well. They were good ambassadors for the AC. I do feel that they were also good team that suffered a lot of bad luck. Their boat was good, but hindered by some sort of balance issue that lead to rudder shaking. As for Deano and TH being on the boat in the next AC, that is a question that AM need to answer. What I’d love to see is the DOG matched canned and everyone come back in 2003 with one new boat each 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
strider470 2,142 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 23 minutes ago, mako23 said: What I’d love to see is the DOG matched canned and everyone come back in 2003 with one new boat each Back to the future Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Zaal said: From what I understood Max Sirena, in a recent interview, told that TH will be again in charge, and that AM is ready to start. It will be interesting to see if he'll keep DB at the helm, or maybe put there PG. I'm expecting also a great synergy between AM and the Usa Olympic sailing team, now led by Paul Cayard. Deano needs to realize what he couldn't after San Francisco, which is that he no longer belongs on an AC boat in any capacity. Hutch too, although Hutch is clearly more valuable in a shore role than Deano is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stingray~ 2,283 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Seems to me that the proposed one-on-one ‘AC37’ option is fraught with potential problems and uncertainty, legal and otherwise. By far the safest, smartest move is to hold a multi-Chall event in Auckland, in 2024. If Grant can’t make Auckland or the Govt pay for more than some ‘running the event fee’ (which he did agree to last time), well then he simply needs to go get his team campaign funding from elsewhere, again. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tornado-Cat 1,082 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 I think an AC37 next year around Isle of Wight would be awsome, but everybody should be invited and the Deed should be respected, which means excluding the obligation to sign an AC38 protocol or any kind of binding. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 29 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said: I think an AC37 next year around Isle of Wight would be awsome, but everybody should be invited and the Deed should be respected, which means excluding the obligation to sign an AC38 protocol or any kind of binding. Yep, especially the deed being respected part. Anything else is disgraceful. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EYESAILOR 1,653 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said: I think an AC37 next year around Isle of Wight would be awsome, but everybody should be invited and the Deed should be respected, which means excluding the obligation to sign an AC38 protocol or any kind of binding. +1 I think an AC 37 in 2022 hosted at the site of the original race would be great. But where we differ is that I think there should be a plan for 2024. New teams will never be competitive for a 2022 event announced this year and nor will they be competitive for a 2024 event announced late in 2022. We want new teams to contemplate challenging for the AC in 2024. I realize the ambiguous language of the DoG puts some hurdles in the way. However if there is a 2022 event then smart people sharing the same goals should be able to overcome that hurdle. We've talked about side agreements etc. The level of debate has highlighted some of the ambiguities of a century old deed being held up to a modern cup....I think and hope the ambiguities can be overcome. If the cannot, then I think a 2024 event announced late in 2022 will not be good for growing the cup and it would be better to just wait. Again, I prefer that the problems in the D0G can be overcome and the participants in 2022 could announce a 2024 class of yacht, then (and only then) it would be very exciting to look foward to seeing the 75' beasts sooner than 2024. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tornado-Cat 1,082 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 9 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said: +1 I think an AC 37 in 2022 hosted at the site of the original race would be great. But where we differ is that I think there should be a plan for 2024. New teams will never be competitive for a 2022 event announced this year and nor will they be competitive for a 2024 event announced late in 2022. We want new teams to contemplate challenging for the AC in 2024. I realize the ambiguous language of the DoG puts some hurdles in the way. However if there is a 2022 event then smart people sharing the same goals should be able to overcome that hurdle. We've talked about side agreements etc. The level of debate has highlighted some of the ambiguities of a century old deed being held up to a modern cup....I think and hope the ambiguities can be overcome. If the cannot, then I think a 2024 event announced late in 2022 will not be good for growing the cup and it would be better to just wait. Again, I prefer that the problems in the D0G can be overcome and the participants in 2022 could announce a 2024 class of yacht, then (and only then) it would be very exciting to look foward to seeing the 75' beasts sooner than 2024. I understand your objective but I think we can fullfill it by respecting the Deed. If you have a 2022 event open to everybody we will have the present teams + new ones buying the old B1 boats or copying the B2s. I can even see Cammas doing it, and the event in UK diminishes transport costs. Obviously their participation is for training and prepare for AC38. Then let's allow the AC37 winner to chose the boat, it could be an improved AC75 or a multi. And that would be for the best of the AC event, if we chose now the boat for AC38 it could be obsolete in 2024. Other possibility could be pre CSS in 2022 but it would not be as attractive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EYESAILOR 1,653 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 48 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said: I understand your objective but I think we can fullfill it by respecting the Deed. If you have a 2022 event open to everybody we will have the present teams + new ones buying the old B1 boats or copying the B2s. I can even see Cammas doing it, and the event in UK diminishes transport costs. Obviously their participation is for training and prepare for AC38. Then let's allow the AC37 winner to chose the boat, it could be an improved AC75 or a multi, or a traditional keel boat ranging from 40' to 90' . And that would be for the best of the AC event, if we chose now the boat for AC38 it could be obsolete in 2024 (which is why serious new challenges may not want to commit to a program which will be obsolete in 15 months time ). Other possibility could be pre CSS in 2022 but it would not be as attractive. Unless there is a commitment to a class/design in 2024, then I think an event in 2022 is not going to attract new entrants for 2022 or 2024. Nobody wants to embark on a serious 2+ year development plan in a class which might be obsolete in 15 months time You can tell the new entrants that you cannot consider a challenge for 2024 until 2022. They will shrug. They are not asking you to consider their challenge or anyone else's challenge but merely specify the class of boat that the defender and all challengers have agreed to for 2024. If the lawyers cant figure out how to draft such a side agreement, then either wait to 2024 or acknowledge the hurdle for new teams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? The whole ACWS circus and CSS started in part as an attempt to keep sailors sailing and make the Cup financially more sustainable, no? A two boat Cup is relatively inexpensive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Alchemist 1,433 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 The idea of a 2022 event is just a shame to get funds to keep ETNZ team members in place. There is no possible way that any new teams could mount a winnable challenge in the short of time. Only the teams from the last cup could get a competitive boat in the water in that timeframe. If they really want to do something, then call it a Pre-AC regatta and allow all boats to race together at the same time. Do not denigrate the Americas Cup by calling it an AC race. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 I know it's a ploy to get money, but in the old days we're there challenger selection series to pick who would race against NYYC? I don't think so but may be wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 26 minutes ago, NeedAClew said: I know it's a ploy to get money, but in the old days we're there challenger selection series to pick who would race against NYYC? I don't think so but may be wrong. Challengers series didn't start until the 70s. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tornado-Cat 1,082 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said: Unless there is a commitment to a class/design in 2024, then I think an event in 2022 is not going to attract new entrants for 2022 or 2024. Nobody wants to embark on a serious 2+ year development plan in a class which might be obsolete in 15 months time You can tell the new entrants that you cannot consider a challenge for 2024 until 2022. They will shrug. They are not asking you to consider their challenge or anyone else's challenge but merely specify the class of boat that the defender and all challengers have agreed to for 2024. If the lawyers cant figure out how to draft such a side agreement, then either wait to 2024 or acknowledge the hurdle for new teams You would get 4 teams + probably 2 new ones if they can buy boats for a good price, so 6 teams for 2022 and perhaps 2 more for 2024 = 8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rennmaus 3,064 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 6 hours ago, NeedAClew said: Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? The whole ACWS circus and CSS started in part as an attempt to keep sailors sailing and make the Cup financially more sustainable, no? A two boat Cup is relatively inexpensive. It is Deed compliant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 412 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 8 hours ago, NeedAClew said: Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? The whole ACWS circus and CSS started in part as an attempt to keep sailors sailing and make the Cup financially more sustainable, no? A two boat Cup is relatively inexpensive. How is keeping a campaign overhead budget running continuously between Cups financially more sustainable? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IPLore 1,116 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said: You would get 4 teams + probably 2 new ones if they can buy boats for a good price, so 6 teams for 2022 and perhaps 2 more for 2024 = 8. I suspect that any new teams that would be interested in investing in a program and boat for 2022 to gain experience for their teams would only be doing that as part of a 3 year plan to be competitive in 2024. It is unavoidable that these programs cost 10s of millions of dollars . Without a roadmap to 2024, or at least a definition of the boat , I dont think we will see new teams appear. So I think there are 2 alternatives: 1, The next AC is in 2024 (hopefully in AC75s), with possibly ACWS events in 2022 and 2023. 2. The next AC is in 2022 accompanied by a side agreement, willingly entered into by the participating teams, that the 2024 event will be hosted in AC75s (or whatever boat is chosen) The third alternative of defining that class of boat with only 15 month notice is not going to bring in new teams. I agree 6-8 teams is doable but they will need a suitable lead time to raise funds and prepare a program Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IPLore 1,116 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 10 hours ago, NeedAClew said: Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? In the strict sense, every Cup has only been a 2 boat event. The Defender series and Challenger series define the 2 boats. The Challenger series has evolved into what makes the modern day AC so exciting and a true international test of "best in the world". The DoG doesnt contemplate a Challenger series or mention it. I find it ironic that some on these threads talk about "respecting the deed". In a pure sense that would be just a 1 vs 1 event between 2 clubs. I question whether their strict interpretation of the phrase in deed referring to "when a challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided." allows for a challenger series. I ask the "strict interpretation" advocates If a challenge from the HYC has been received, how can a substitute challenge from RNZYC be considered merely because they won a series called the Luis Vuitton Cup? The answer would be because Defender and Challenger mutually consented to overriding that provision. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 5 hours ago, sailman said: How is keeping a campaign overhead budget running continuously between Cups financially more sustainable? I dunno but eg the AC45 series went on for years for some reason. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 If the Challenger series does all that now why does everyone want 2007 or whatever? Boring CS or one C and the D, novelty might be an exciting change. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Alchemist 1,433 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 18 hours ago, mako23 said: If they rumours are true and AM are coming back, all I can say is that they will be gladly accepted back here in NZ. TH struck me as a really decent guy and the whole crew conducted themselves well. They were good ambassadors for the AC. I do feel that they were also good team that suffered a lot of bad luck. Their boat was good, but hindered by some sort of balance issue that lead to rudder shaking. As for Deano and TH being on the boat in the next AC, that is a question that AM need to answer. What I’d love to see is the DOG matched canned and everyone come back in 2003 with one new boat each It seems like all of the teams want to sail the next cup in NZ, except for ETNZ....lol 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EYESAILOR 1,653 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said: It seems like all of the teams want to sail the next cup in NZ, except for ETNZ....lol Sir Rat made it clear that as far as Ineos is concerned, the final decision will be down to NZ. NZ have dangled the possibility of an event in the Solent in front of them and he ahs told them he would be very excited to do that...but the decision would be down to NZ. FWIW, the DoG leaves the location to the defender as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stingray~ 2,283 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said: FWIW, the DoG leaves the location to the defender as well. Only under strict DoG default rules. Location is among the MCable items. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xlot 1,162 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 One thing’s obvious: GD/TNZ shouldn’t try to emulate some movie and plan to raise cash in a poker tournament - their bluff is so transparent! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 6 minutes ago, Xlot said: One thing’s obvious: GD/TNZ shouldn’t try to emulate some movie and plan to raise cash in a poker tournament - their bluff is so ransparent! Yep, it's always the same and always bullshit. However I think this time they might actually be financially fucked and if that is the case, then they run a real risk if suffering the same fate as every other boy who cried Wolf. That said, NZ governments in general are pretty hopeless with the current one being exceptionally so. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stingray~ 2,283 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Since the ETNZ paid-for Economic Impact Study promised revenues to the tune of ridiculous numbers like $600M to $1B and NZ is instead still in the hole waiting for that payback, well.. Funding ETNZ is going to be a pretty hard-sell to voter-sensitive politicos. GD needs a different funding model! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amc 101 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 According to a quick google search NZ tourism generated 16.2 billion dollars, so $600 million was probably not overly optimistic. Covid has trashed that though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 13 minutes ago, amc said: According to a quick google search NZ tourism generated 16.2 billion dollars, so $600 million was probably not overly optimistic. Covid has trashed that though. The problem is it used things like thousands of hotel rooms being filled and all the ancillary spending. The thing is, prior to covid, the hotels were full, finding rooms was not easy. So for every AC visitor we had to lose a normal visitor. But like all numbers used to justify public expenditure, fluff and misdirection is standard. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, Gissie said: But like all numbers used to justify public expenditure, fluff and misdirection is standard. I've never seen any of these cost benefit analysis from any county for any event that smelled anything less than putrid. Funny how none of them ever seem to say it's a bad idea. I guess it's cos politicians are just so damned good at picking winning ideas. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
coercivity 6 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 For NZ its about spin of industries. Boat building repairs and rockets, skis etc. it is simply amazing what has come from it. Rugby world cup a lot of fun but economics tricky. Is the AC worth it well the Netherlands has a boat building industry 20X bigger than here so plenty of upside. If I was government I would look for leveraged outcomes if money goes in. Film industry has had massive input it looks quite well spent in hindsight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mako23 632 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 4 hours ago, jaysper said: I've never seen any of these cost benefit analysis from any county for any event that smelled anything less than putrid. Funny how none of them ever seem to say it's a bad idea. I guess it's cos politicians are just so damned good at picking winning ideas. I think the cost benefit analysis is tricky. I think of it as more of a branding exercise. The AC can promote NZ as a high tech country and not a bunch of sheep shagging farmers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, mako23 said: I think the cost benefit analysis is tricky. I think of it as more of a branding exercise. The AC can promote NZ as a high tech country and not a bunch of sheep shagging farmers. What's wrong with loving yourself some sheep? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scassani 6 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 Iplore tels us: The answer would be because Defender and Challenger mutually consented to overriding that provision. No. Mutual consent is available for the purpose of setting the terms of the match. It treats of such subjects that, were they to remain in dispute, a match could not be held. This includes the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match. Compare the breadth of these subjects with those the Deed prescribes in the event the competing teams are unable to come to mutually agreeable terms of the match. You will find the extent of their applications is identical or, in less legalistic terms, the subjects that are open to mutual consent and those the Deed prescribes in its absence are terms of a match. The Deed makes clear that provisions accepted through mutual consent have the duration of the coming match. Other provisions of the Deed are treated as timeless. These provisions are not subject to change by the partys to a competition. Only the trustee of the Cup has the authority to amend the Deed to permit racing in the Southern hemisphere or to remove from the Deed the provision requiring boats to sail "on their own bottom to the port where the contest is to take place." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barnyb 637 Posted March 28, 2021 Author Share Posted March 28, 2021 5 hours ago, Stingray~ said: Since the ETNZ paid-for Economic Impact Study promised revenues to the tune of ridiculous numbers like $600M to $1B and NZ is instead still in the hole waiting for that payback, well.. Funding ETNZ is going to be a pretty hard-sell to voter-sensitive politicos. GD needs a different funding model! GD is working on another funding model that does NOT include Govt money. This is not a case of the Govt reluctant to give TNZ money. It is a case of TNZ not wanting Govt money or any Govt involvement in AC37. (ps. we should be discussing this in the TNZ thread!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Barnyb said: GD is working on another funding model that does NOT include Govt money. This is not a case of the Govt reluctant to give TNZ money. It is a case of TNZ not wanting Govt money or any Govt involvement in AC37. (ps. we should be discussing this in the TNZ thread!) Sell the team to Ratcliffe? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Alchemist 1,433 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 14 hours ago, Barnyb said: GD is working on another funding model that does NOT include Govt money. This is not a case of the Govt reluctant to give TNZ money. It is a case of TNZ not wanting Govt money or any Govt involvement in AC37. (ps. we should be discussing this in the TNZ thread!) But it makes a mockery out of the AC and insults all other competitors. He is just trying to fund himself, hold onto the cup for two more cycles without having to win it, and prevent any NZ sailors from working for anyone else. He needs to find another sponsor instead of holding the cup hostage. He has admitted that he can not pay his sailors the going rate, so he writes rules that forces them to work for him or not at all. He is counting on the sailors and team to show loyalty to NZ when he doesn't. The cold hard facts of the matter is if you can not afford to compete for the AC, then give it up. Do not treat it like carnival side show. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said: But it makes a mockery out of the AC and insults all other competitors. He is just trying to fund himself, hold onto the cup for two more cycles without having to win it, and prevent any NZ sailors from working for anyone else. He needs to find another sponsor instead of holding the cup hostage. He has admitted that he can not pay his sailors the going rate, so he writes rules that forces them to work for him or not at all. He is counting on the sailors and team to show loyalty to NZ when he doesn't. The cold hard facts of the matter is if you can not afford to compete for the AC, then give it up. Do not treat it like carnival side show. ^ This. He his doing things that would have brought the wrath of the kiwi fan boys if it was any other team. Instead most have gone quiet or making vague excuses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
strider470 2,142 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 44 minutes ago, NeedAClew said: One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. LR could as well , and AM also 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Gissie said: ^ This. He his doing things that would have brought the wrath of the kiwi fan boys if it was any other team. Instead most have gone quiet or making vague excuses. In fact I would argue that if the rumours about locking the AC75 for 2 cycles is true, it is worse that what Orifice did in Bermuda. At least Orifice didn't bar competitors from entry if they didn't sign up for the AC75. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 hour ago, NeedAClew said: One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. I was behind Prada. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pickeringsv 8 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 6 hours ago, The_Alchemist said: But it makes a mockery out of the AC and insults all other competitors. He is just trying to fund himself, hold onto the cup for two more cycles without having to win it, and prevent any NZ sailors from working for anyone else. He needs to find another sponsor instead of holding the cup hostage. He has admitted that he can not pay his sailors the going rate, so he writes rules that forces them to work for him or not at all. He is counting on the sailors and team to show loyalty to NZ when he doesn't. The cold hard facts of the matter is if you can not afford to compete for the AC, then give it up. Do not treat it like carnival side show. Mean while he has a new power catamaran in build in CHINA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sailbydate 3,619 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Gissie said: ^ This. He his doing things that would have brought the wrath of the kiwi fan boys if it was any other team. Instead most have gone quiet or making vague excuses. It's called survival, Gissie. No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said: It's called survival, Gissie. No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest. Doesn't matter SBD. It all comes down to principles. If you abandon your principles as soon as the shit hits the fan, then they were not really your principles in the first place. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sailbydate said: It's called survival, Gissie. No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest. Sorry, I forgot that trying to save a private sports team, in a super expensive boat you insisted on, excused being a total cunt. Will keep it in mind. Or not. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sailbydate 3,619 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, jaysper said: Doesn't matter SBD. It all comes down to principles. If you abandon your principles as soon as the shit hits the fan, then they were not really your principles in the first place. Principles are all well and good while your alive. If your dead, who gives a fuck. Certainly not the corpse. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sailbydate 3,619 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gissie said: Sorry, I forgot that trying to save a private sports team, in a super expensive boat you insisted on, excused being a total cunt. Will keep it in mind. Or not. So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Sailbydate said: So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place? Personally fella, I'd either find a way without doing this stuff or let the team fold. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Just now, Sailbydate said: So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place? Who knows, but I would prefer to fold the team than behave the way he is. Prostitution the cup for his own ego and bullshit, just an asshole. Unfortunately the diehard Kiwi fans make Canterbury supporters look like they have 20/20 vision. Prepared to cast all morals aside for another shot at the chalice. Just as much assholes as Dalts. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sailbydate 3,619 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gissie said: Who knows, but I would prefer to fold the team than behave the way he is. Prostitution the cup for his own ego and bullshit, just an asshole. Unfortunately the diehard Kiwi fans make Canterbury supporters look like they have 20/20 vision. Prepared to cast all morals aside for another shot at the chalice. Just as much assholes as Dalts. C'mon, Gissie. "Who knows?". That's a pretty lofty pedestal you're tiptoeing on. 14 minutes ago, jaysper said: Personally fella, I'd either find a way without doing this stuff or let the team fold. What are your suggestions, Jays? Obviously, you think GD needs help. Let's hear what you would do to overcome this Team funding crisis. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jaysper 1,264 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Just now, Sailbydate said: What are your suggestions, Jays? Obviously, you think GD needs help. Let's hear what you would do to overcome this Team funding crisis. Well, I think he has (as he always has) been clear they need funds. Normally I call bullshit on it, but with the loss of Emirates I suspect this time its for real. Aside from his normal extortion attempts of the Government, I have no idea what (if anything) he can do to fund the team which is why I offered letting the team fold as an alternative. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XPRO 213 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Maybe time for TNZ to call on prodigal son Chris Liddell to go get some of the Trump money, maybe GM or Microsoft... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amc 101 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 hour ago, jaysper said: In fact I would argue that if the rumours about locking the AC75 for 2 cycles is true, it is worse that what Orifice did in Bermuda. At least Orifice didn't bar competitors from entry if they didn't sign up for the AC75. To be fair the London framework agreement thing had a few other stinky parts to it like the defender sailing in the challenger series. I suspect there were a few things ETNZ might have gone for in that agreement but overall as a package no. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,762 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said: C'mon, Gissie. "Who knows?". That's a pretty lofty pedestal you're tiptoeing on. Never having been in the position he is probably in, note we are all guessing and he has played the woe is me I have no money card for years, I don't really know the options open to him. Sorry if I can't be bothered to make stuff up to sound amazingly erudite. What I do know is I would not want to tarnish my team, or the event, in a desperate move to stay semi-viable. Maybe if he hadn't shat all over Prada and kept them as CoR going forward he may have had some more options. Maybe he did that at the behest of Ineos on vague promises of help. Maybe it was, is just the lashing out of a large ego watching his legacy turn to custard. What he seems to not realise is his great legacy is in danger of turning into a mockery of what it should be. Lots of folk have had shit smeared all over their lives in the last year. Lots without both family money and a multi million dollar salary for some years to fall back on. Sorry, but sympathy can be found in the dictionary somewhere between shit and syphilis. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mako23 632 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 48 minutes ago, jaysper said: Personally fella, I'd either find a way without doing this stuff or let the team fold. It’s this just a GD decision or do the other 100 people at ETNZ have a say in losing their job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mako23 632 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 3 hours ago, NeedAClew said: One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. So winning is all about money, you shouldn’t compete unless you have a friendly billionaire or two. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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