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6 minutes ago, Will_Co said:

If I'm NYYC, and I am aggrieved by the absence of a multi-challenger event, and I am concerned about standing, wouldn't the lesson from GGYC v. SNG be this: submit a challenge with a CSS and argue that the ITUK challenge, which does not provide for a multi-challenger event and that seeks to impose the AC75 on future cups, is not DoG compliant?

Top map the roles onto the GGYC litigation, NYYC would be GGYC (the rebuffed challenger), ETNZ would be SNG (the defender) and ITUK would be CNEV (the accepted challenger whose status/challenge is being questioned in court).  

But a multi-chall AC is not at all content of the DoG.
A 1:1 match is the race the DoG is regulating.

Have I understood you correctly?

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4 minutes ago, Will_Co said:

If I'm NYYC, and I am aggrieved by the absence of a multi-challenger event, and I am concerned about standing, wouldn't the lesson from GGYC v. SNG be this: submit a challenge with a CSS and argue that the ITUK challenge, which does not provide for a multi-challenger event and that seeks to impose the AC75 on future cups, is not DoG compliant?

Top map the roles onto the GGYC litigation, NYYC would be GGYC (the rebuffed challenger), ETNZ would be SNG (the defender) and ITUK would be CNEV (the accepted challenger whose status/challenge is being questioned in court).  

Two different outcomes. I have always said that NYYC would have standing to challenge any attempt by RNZYS/RYS to control AC38 through AC37. Doing so violates the Deed and NYYC would have standing to complain as a potential challenger for AC38.

NYYC has no right under the Deed to a multi-challenger event. In fact, the Deed contemplates only a 1v1 match. So NYYC would not have standing to complain about not being included in a 1v1 match. 

The analogous situation to the 2009 GGYC/SNG scenario would be this (which I don't think anyone is suggesting will be possible): RNZYS (SNG) selected RYS (CNEV).  RYS (CNEV) is not a Deed-compliant yacht club (having never held a regatta).  NYYC (GGYC) issues a challenge and sues claiming that RNZYS violated the Deed by selecting an non-Deed compliant challenger. Court concludes RYS (CNEV) is not a valid challenger, sees that NYYC (GGYC) is a valid challenger and was next in line, and orders that NYYC (GGYC) is the proper challenger.

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9 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Parallels to the CNEV challenge are weak.

Weak perhaps, but relevant.  My point is that unlike SDYC v. Mercury Bay where the two litigants were COR/D, the GGYC v. SNG case involves the Defender and an DoG beneficiary that is not the Challenger.  That is the relevance to the current situation. 

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33 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

Ironically, Tommy Lipton was denied membership of the RYS until shortly before his death. Despite building a very successful businessman, he was not considered upper class.

Sir Tommy was brilliant in many respects and rose from genuine poverty to great success. He also lived with his assistant William Love for 30 odd years.  In those days it was hard to come out. I dont think he minded one way or another about RYS membership but it was nice and appropriate that he was finally invited to join.

You dont apply to RYS, you want untilinvited.

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32 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

But a multi-chall AC is not at all content of the DoG.
A 1:1 match is the race the DoG is regulating.

Have I understood you correctly? 

No, but that's my fault. The basis of the complaint by NYYC would imposing the AC75 on future events. In other words, it would be a complaint based on the "no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided" clause. 

The goal of the litigation would be to open it up to a multi-challenger event; the means to get there would be to say that the ITUK challenge is not DoG compliant. 

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34 minutes ago, porthos said:

Two different outcomes. I have always said that NYYC would have standing to challenge any attempt by RNZYS/RYS to control AC38 through AC37. Doing so violates the Deed and NYYC would have standing to complain as a potential challenger for AC38. Agreed. That would be the basis of the NYYC complaint. They may not need to submit a challenge to have standing to make that argument, but if they were concerned about standing, then the litigation strategy from GGYC would be to submit a challenge and argue that ITUK's is not DoG compliant. 

NYYC has no right under the Deed to a multi-challenger event. In fact, the Deed contemplates only a 1v1 match. So NYYC would not have standing to complain about not being included in a 1v1 match. Agreed. The goal, not the means, of litigating the ITUK challenge would be to bring about the result of a multi-challenger event. 

The analogous situation to the 2009 GGYC/SNG scenario would be this (which I don't think anyone is suggesting will be possible): RNZYS (SNG) selected RYS (CNEV).  RYS (CNEV) is not a Deed-compliant yacht club (having never held a regatta).  NYYC (GGYC) issues a challenge and sues claiming that RNZYS violated the Deed by selecting an non-Deed compliant challenger. Court concludes RYS (CNEV) is not a valid challenger, sees that NYYC (GGYC) is a valid challenger and was next in line, and orders that NYYC (GGYC) is the proper challenger. Yes, that is what I was suggesting, though perhaps it wasn't clear. The only clarification I would add that the complaint against RYS would be as you noted above, i.e., about the AC75 for AC37-38, not about having held a regatta.  

 

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Since this is now the court case forum, I'd like to ask the amassed memory of SAAC whether the Blue Arrow Challenge ever made it to NYSC with their bid to enter the '88 Big Boat V's Cat challenge or was it just rejected out of hand like what seems to be occurring for AC37?

It would seem to me that this would have more relevance to the current proceedings than some of the other claims, in relation to being excluded from AC37 anyway?

I seem to remember that Iain Murry had a boat in development if Blue Arrow was let in to a CSS but it never proceeded.

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12 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Since this is now the court case forum, I'd like to ask the amassed memory of SAAC whether the Blue Arrow Challenge ever made it to NYSC with their bid to enter the '88 Big Boat V's Cat challenge or was it just rejected out of hand like what seems to be occurring for AC37?

It would seem to me that this would have more relevance to the current proceedings than some of the other claims, in relation to being excluded from AC37 anyway?

I seem to remember that Iain Murry had a boat in development if Blue Arrow was let in to a CSS but it never proceeded.

IIRC no it didn't. NYSC told Fay and Connor to go at it which left Blue Arrow out. Then they killed it at 30 knots sending it down the mine. Interesting boat though, well ahead of its time.

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Actually if you read the first volume of Fisher's tome, at least as far as challengers were concerned, it was always that way, right from the beginning. Owners (now teams) were the movers and shakers, clubs a necessary appendage. Not what the DoG envisaged but how it actually played out.

No surprise surely, that the money does all the talking.

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20 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Is it possible to have the Mods change the thread title to "Judge Porthos' Court"?  He does seem to be the resident expert.

Don't worry -- I will shortly and thankfully go back to being irrelevant.

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

 

I hope volume 3 that he apparently had in progress somehow makes its way into print.

 

I am told there are people working to make that happen. The YJA can earn its keep!

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39 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

I have complete faith and confidence that the actual and potential legal shenanigans will continue long into the future!

I sure hope so. I’m about to move about 3 hrs from the court and would love to go sit in like in the glory days of SA

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

The early NYYC were a fairly racy set if you read their history. They had a club house on the New Jersey shore and their principal interest seemed to have been wagering on the outcomes of races between their yachts.

The early challengers were club members but the challenge clearly came from the owner and the challenging YC was the club they happened to be members of.

Earl Dunraven was a member of RYS (of course)

Tommy Lipton was a member of several clubs and  chose to challenge via Royal Ulster.

If you're talking about Monmouth Hills and the Water Witch gambling clubhouse (from the lawn of which they would watch the AC races off Sandy Hook), I grew up in one of the original houses. The club house was not officially NYYC, but members were definitely well represented, and the wagers were serious money from what we were told.

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Maybe I have missed it among all the bullshit and over reaction, but it seems to me that the NYYC statement contains a major flaw. It refers to a DoG match. Even in the wildest conspiracy theories about the next edition, I have not seen any suggestion that there will be a DoG match. What everybody says might happen is a mutually agreed 1 on 1 match, just like we saw for 18 out of 26 NYYC defences. A DoG match is what happens when the defender and challenger cannot agree terms.

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3 minutes ago, SimonN said:

Maybe I have missed it among all the bullshit and over reaction, but it seems to me that the NYYC statement contains a major flaw. It refers to a DoG match. Even in the wildest conspiracy theories about the next edition, I have not seen any suggestion that there will be a DoG match. What everybody says might happen is a mutually agreed 1 on 1 match, just like we saw for 18 out of 26 NYYC defences. A DoG match is what happens when the defender and challenger cannot agree terms.

No, it is definitely not a DoG match. People are calling it that because in recent history the only time there has been 1 v 1 is in a DoG match.

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

No, it is definitely not a DoG match. People are calling it that because in recent history the only time there has been 1 v 1 is in a DoG match.

But what's so strange about what NYYC says is that they are incorrectly likening the rumour to the 2 DoG matches there have been, even though it is not like them and is like the 19 single challenger mutual consent matches that NYYC ran. I expect people on here to get confused between the differences between the 2 but the NYYC? That's almost unbelievable and shows how far out of touch they must be.

 

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1 minute ago, SimonN said:

But what's so strange about what NYYC says is that they are incorrectly likening the rumour to the 2 DoG matches there have been, even though it is not like them and is like the 19 single challenger mutual consent matches that NYYC ran. I expect people on here to get confused between the differences between the 2 but the NYYC? That's almost unbelievable and shows how far out of touch they must be.

 

So the NYYC have their knickers in a twist because they want to play and the next AC is looking likely to be a private party only. However, there is fuck all they can do about that cos nothing in that contradicts the DoG.

 

Where ETNZ COULD get into strife is if they go ahead with their signalled plan to attempt to force the AC75 in the subsequent cup.

For me however, the big confusion is that they are saying that AC37 is 1 vs 1 but are also indicating entry will be conditional on acceptance of AC75s for the following cup. So why are they doing this if INEOS are the only ones who can enter and are clearly of like minds regarding the AC75?

All too bizarre. The handling of the optics of this have been appalling.

 

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

So the NYYC have their knickers in a twist because they want to play and the next AC is looking likely to be a private party only. However, there is fuck all they can do about that cos nothing in that contradicts the DoG.

 

Where ETNZ COULD get into strife is if they go ahead with their signalled plan to attempt to force the AC75 in the subsequent cup.

For me however, the big confusion is that they are saying that AC37 is 1 vs 1 but are also indicating entry will be conditional on acceptance of AC75s for the following cup. So why are they doing this if INEOS are the only ones who can enter and are clearly of like minds regarding the AC75?

All too bizarre. The handling of the optics of this have been appalling.

 

Not bizarre at all in my opinion.

On 3/21/2021 at 10:17 PM, strider470 said:

ETNZ and INEOS desperately need to put the conditions for AC38, already in the AC37 protocol, to give assurance of continuity to possible teams interested in challenging in AC38, since no team would find any sponsor willing to invest in an event that cannot be yet planned and whose class of boats is yet to be confirmed.
But if they do, they will prone to be brought to the NYSC for trying to bend the Deed of Gift in a way different from the original intent.

 

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12 minutes ago, SimonN said:

But what's so strange about what NYYC says is that they are incorrectly likening the rumour to the 2 DoG matches there have been, even though it is not like them and is like the 19 single challenger mutual consent matches that NYYC ran. I expect people on here to get confused between the differences between the 2 but the NYYC? That's almost unbelievable and shows how far out of touch they must be.

 

What is not strange is that you are not properly informed.

"The New York Yacht Club will not support a Deed of Gift match or an America's Cup competition that...is effectively open to only the defender and Challenger of Record."

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Sadly for Americans who are passionate about the "Americas Cup" that America as a country are unlikely to ever win the Cup for a long time. They made it very hard for the challengers in so many ways for over 100 years until Australia came along and broke the stranglehold. And now we have one of the smallest countries in the world appear seemingly unbeatable. I wonder, we will see America challenge again after some would review as a disastrous campaign? And now I believe we may have Country of citizenship what does America have in it's wardrobe to be a threat once again?

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43 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What is not strange is that you are not properly informed.

"The New York Yacht Club will not support a Deed of Gift match or an America's Cup competition that...is effectively open to only the defender and Challenger of Record."

Whether they support it or not is irrelevant - since they are powerless to prevent it, using the provisions in the DoG. An IoW challenge would be DoG compliant.

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Even though it’s months before anyone will know for sure, presuming that there is an attempt to turn AC37 into a one on one game, for NYYC, Oracle (only because they like doing these kinds of things) or anyone else that might want to play the next time around (and has the resources to approach the NYSC), the functional phrasing of the DOG is this: “Any organized Yacht Club.......SHALL ALWAYS be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup...” (Emphasis mine).  Kearney could walk into court and say “my guy wants to sail in AC37.  The Deed says he shall always have the right to sail and RNZYS/INEOS says he can’t.  We would like to have our ticket punched.”  Seems about as equally compelling as the CNEV case.  Assuming that if more than one party wanted to sail in AC37, in no way is a one on one match DOG compliant.

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11 minutes ago, classfve said:

Even though it’s months before anyone will know for sure, presuming that there is an attempt to turn AC37 into a one on one game, for NYYC, Oracle (only because they like doing these kinds of things) or anyone else that might want to play the next time around (and has the resources to approach the NYSC), the functional phrasing of the DOG is this: “Any organized Yacht Club.......SHALL ALWAYS be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup...” (Emphasis mine).  Kearney could walk into court and say “my guy wants to sail in AC37.  The Deed says he shall always have the right to sail and RNZYS/INEOS says he can’t.  We would like to have our ticket punched.”  Seems about as equally compelling as the CNEV case.  Assuming that if more than one party wanted to sail in AC37, in no way is a one on one match DOG compliant.

The Deed does not specify a particular challenge (eg: AC37) where any qualifying club must be allowed to participate. But any qualifying club is always entitled to challenge. But they must wait their turn if a challenge has already been accepted (eg AC38).

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12 hours ago, NZK said:

Apparently Jimmy has US citizenship and it's his primary residence so he should qualify - bigger question is whether they could offer him enough to leave Prada? My gut says no....  

I think it is setting up for Jimmy to be at the helm for the next American challenge.  Jimmy is committed to helm the US entry in SailGp this year.  Prada has experience at helm from this year and do not need him for the next cup.

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Don’t know if I’d agree with that.  It seems to maybe tie in with the “hip pocket challenge” idea.  Line enough of these up ahead of time and you’d be standing in line forever.  It’s the whole concept of “unfair dealing”.  The “hip pocket challenge” thing is something that I think will have to be dealt with in the future.  Hopefully not litigated but who knows.

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

 what does America have in it's wardrobe to be a threat once again?

Money.

Lots and lots of it.

Innovation

Lots and lots of it

Technology

lots and lots of it

Experienced and talented AC helms and tacticians?  Not so much. But refer to #1 above and  the fast track citizenship process for athletes

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1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said:

Money.

Lots and lots of it.

Innovation

Lots and lots of it

Technology

lots and lots of it

Experienced and talented AC helms and tacticians?  Not so much. But refer to #1 above and  the fast track citizenship process for athletes

Whilst I absolutely don't agree with Terrafirma's outlook on the US' chances in the cup, just a couple of points:

* Too late to fast track the citizenship under the proposed nationality rules.

* Whilst American Magic have shown up with some cash, I'm not sure if there are any other money belts out there with sufficient passion for yachting to stump up a spare $100 Million

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Whilst I absolutely don't agree with Terrafirma's outlook on the US' chances in the cup, just a couple of points:

* Too late to fast track the citizenship under the proposed nationality rules.

* Whilst American Magic have shown up with some cash, I'm not sure if there are any other money belts out there with sufficient passion for yachting to stump up a spare $100 Million

Maybe Ratcliffe could fund a third team then ;)

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Whether they support it or not is irrelevant - since they are powerless to prevent it, using the provisions in the DoG. An IoW challenge would be DoG compliant.

Isn't the first AC where a hip pocket prevents other YCs to sail ? What if the were testing this concept to the court ?

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The NZ Herald published an article where Hutchinson claims

"Team New Zealand will struggle with Challengers"

Unfortunately it's behind a Paywall.

I think its a regurge of this:

 

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/terry-hutchinson-warns-rising-costs-could-keep-future-challengers-america-s-cup

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17 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The NZ Herald published an article where Hutchinson claims

"Team New Zealand will struggle with Challengers"

Unfortunately it's behind a Paywall.

 Pssst:  Firefox plus add-on "Bypass Paywalls".  Other browsers no doubt have similar.  ;)

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11 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

 Pssst:  Firefox plus add-on "Bypass Paywalls".  Other browsers no doubt have similar.  ;)

Only seems to work for WindBlows and I try to keep my WindBlows machine free from anything sketchy cos its where I do a lot of work.

Any chance of a copy & paste?

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Only seems to work for WindBlows and I try to keep my WindBlows machine free from anything sketchy cos its where I do a lot of work.

Any chance of a copy & paste?

Sure, got the NZH url?  Save me trying to find it. :P

ps: been using the bypass for some time, I've had no issues.

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9 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Only seems to work for WindBlows and I try to keep my WindBlows machine free from anything sketchy cos its where I do a lot of work.

Any chance of a copy & paste?

Found it...

American Magic skipper and CEO Terry Hutchinson thinks a Deed of Gift challenge in the United Kingdom next year for the 37th America's Cup would be a "massive step backwards" for the competition.

It's understood IneosTeam UK owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton are entertaining the idea of a Deed of Gift challenge on the Isle of Wight in 18 months with a guarantee that whoever wins would then defend the Cup in Auckland in 2024.

That would generate European time zone exposure for the AC75s and it's also thought financial security for Team New Zealand, by effectively selling the Cup venue to the UK billionaire.

On the eve of his departure to his home in Annapolis, Maryland, after nine months in Auckland, Hutchinson has raised concerns about the idea.

"From a sporting perspective [a Deed of Gift match] would be disappointing and a regatta in England in 18 months is a logistical challenge," Hutchinson told the Herald.

American Magic skipper Terry Hutchinson. Photo / Photosport American Magic skipper Terry Hutchinson. Photo / Photosport

Hutchinson felt the New York Yacht Club would be keen to continue with the American Magic programme even if the Cup went in the direction of a match between the Challenger of Record and the defender in the UK next year.

"If the competition goes that way then it's disappointing, but that's out of our control and that's the America's Cup - you have to look at it with all the optics of it. If it went in that direction you have to see what the landscape is for what is being proposed [in Auckland] in 2024 and make a decision on the viability to win the regatta."

However Hutchinson is sceptical about the viability of such a regatta, saying it would be "fraught with logistical challenges".

"You are talking about a boat that is 80,000 man hours to build," Hutchinson said. "Both teams have to go back to England and set up the infrastructure they have to build the boats, they have to sea-trial the boats and go through all that. We know that if its 18 months from today you have three more months of fluff because there is still negotiations going on between Team NZ and the Government here, nothing is set in stone and the only thing that is happening is the time gets shortened."

Team New Zealand and American Magic in action during a practice session earlier this year. Photo / Photosport Team New Zealand and American Magic in action during a practice session earlier this year. Photo / Photosport

Hutchinson leaves New Zealand with mixed feelings. The pain of American Magic's catastrophic capsize still burns and there is a genuine feeling of 'what if?' Hutchinson firmly believes Patriot was the best boat among the challengers, but the fact the boat only raced eight times has left Hutchinson with a sense of unfinished business.

"Given the opportunity we would definitely want to come back. It's one of those situations where if it doesn't kill you it's only going to make you stronger."

One of the three team principals, Doug DeVos is still holidaying in New Zealand with his family and is thought to be blown away by the AC75s and Hutchinson is optimistic DeVos, and fellow team principals Hap Fauth and Roger Penske, will be keen for another crack.

"I'm really confident they want to be involved. When we went into the 36th America's Cup our eyes were open, but now they are more open to the whole picture. As a team we did a really good job navigating through the challenges we had. The mistake would be not to build on those things we did well and at the same thing not to learn from the things we did poorly, so it's definitely unfinished business."

Hutchinson, who was the public face of American Magic for weeks after their on-water disaster, looks back on his time in Auckland with tremendous gratitude.

"Our time in New Zealand has been phenomenal when you think about what has been going on in the world. We have been incredibly fortunate to be here. Obviously the regatta did not go anywhere near how we planned, and I think in retrospect we had planned for a lot of things to happen but the one thing we didn't plan for is capsizing and putting a hole in the boat. In saying that I think the way our team responded to the situation was phenomenal and spoke volumes about the people inside and spoke volumes about our competitors and how they helped us out to get back on the water."

For the most part Hutchinson is in favour of the new class rules that have been drawn up between Team New Zealand and Ineos Team UK. He says the move to make 100 per cent of the sailing team passport holders of the country they represent or having been resident there for the past three years is "a logical progression for the competition".

"The original guiding principle of the Deed of Gift was this competition amongst nations and what has happened there is they've turned the sporting side back to a competition between nations. It's hard not to favour that. That's a great opportunity from a US sailing perspective to develop talent and continue to showcase our sailors."

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

I think it is setting up for Jimmy to be at the helm for the next American challenge.  Jimmy is committed to helm the US entry in SailGp this year.  Prada has experience at helm from this year and do not need him for the next cup.

I don't think the US-ficiation of Jimmy's SGP activity means much about national preference in AC, it's basically a removable decal on a random AC50 as far as he is concerned.

He appears to be quite smitten with his Italian relationship... might have been the pinot kicking in tho...

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9 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

No surprise surely, that the money does all the talking.

Agreed. I just smile at the DoGmatists who insist on the centrality of clubs. With the exception of NYYC in the era of defender trials, I'm not sure it has ever been so.

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Terry says they would have to build new boats, but would they? Only LR would have to build a new boat right? Or use their first boat (unlikely but possible) as it has been defeated in the cup match? 

Obviously any new teams are going to struggle to get involved in 18 months time. But for new teams I think it's more about security of the AC75 being the class in 2024(ish) that is a important, and whether or not there is another cup next year or not is probably of less importance. 

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16 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Terry says they would have to build new boats, but would they? Only LR would have to build a new boat right? Or use their first boat (unlikely but possible) as it has been defeated in the cup match? 

Obviously any new teams are going to struggle to get involved in 18 months time. But for new teams I think it's more about security of the AC75 being the class in 2024(ish) that is a important, and whether or not there is another cup next year or not is probably of less importance. 

I believe LR could use B2 in Cowes.

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8 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

I believe LR could use B2 in Cowes.

I dont think so. It lost the match and cannot be in another match for a period of 2 years per DoG

No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any
Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened,
or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat.

 

Again..Im not a lawyer but I think I understand this to be the case.

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1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said:

I dont think so. It lost the match and cannot be in another match for a period of 2 years per DoG

No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any
Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened,
or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat.

Ah yes, you are probably correct, I misremembered the clause. I recalled it as challenging again rather than competing.

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25 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Terry says they would have to build new boats, but would they? Only LR would have to build a new boat right? Or use their first boat (unlikely but possible) as it has been defeated in the cup match? 

Obviously any new teams are going to struggle to get involved in 18 months time. But for new teams I think it's more about security of the AC75 being the class in 2024(ish) that is a important, and whether or not there is another cup next year or not is probably of less importance. 

I think that would be an interesting DoG clause to try to have removed from the DoG.  I get that 150 years ago they didn't want the loser to continually rechallenge in the same losing yacht.   

But these days, in the age of sophisticated boats that are literally changed daily, and multiple challengers in a CSS, it makes no sense that the best of the losers can't reuse their boat, but the worst of the losers can. 

Also, 150 years ago, the "same vessel" was fairly easy to define. But today?  Couldn't you argue that the foils are as significant as hull shape?  So, might new foils equate to it being a "new" boat?  Plus add in an updated computer and control system...  couldn't that make it a "new" boat?  

I think there is a case to be made to the NYSC. 

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An AC75 is defined by it's measurement certificate for a competition, so could it not be argued that new foils = new measurement certificate = new boat?

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6 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

I think that would be an interesting DoG clause to try to have removed from the DoG.  I get that 150 years ago they didn't want the loser to continually rechallenge in the same losing yacht.   

But these days, in the age of sophisticated boats that are literally changed daily, and multiple challengers in a CSS, it makes no sense that the best of the losers can't reuse their boat, but the worst of the losers can. 

Also, 150 years ago, the "same vessel" was fairly easy to define. But today?  Couldn't you argue that the foils are as significant as hull shape?  So, might new foils equate to it being a "new" boat?  Plus add in an updated computer and control system...  couldn't that make it a "new" boat?  

I think there is a case to be made to the NYSC. 

Agree, as I noted earlier with the definition of vessel.

 

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31 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

An AC75 is defined by it's measurement certificate for a competition, so could it not be argued that new foils = new measurement certificate = new boat?

A very easy fix of the issue. Great.

Edit: All it needs then is a protocol that allows more than one or two boats per campaign... And a respective clause in the challenge document.  Hmmmm... Maybe not so easy after all?

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47 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I dont think so. It lost the match and cannot be in another match for a period of 2 years per DoG

No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any
Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened,
or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat.

 

Again..Im not a lawyer but I think I understand this to be the case.

Is that maybe one of those things that can be decided in the protocol with mutual consent?

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36 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Is that maybe one of those things that can be decided in the protocol with mutual consent?

Good question. What is MCable and what not?

Could one argue that it is part of "the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match,"?

IMHO, this is not MCable (G. Schuyler himself once rejected a request for a second challenge with the same boat, but I cannot remember which boat it was. One of the Canadians?).
Reason: It is not included in above MC clause ("boats" are not mentioned) neither in the complete Deed section of the MCable points, but it's located in one of the sections with non-negotiable rules, and it shares a paragraph with another fixed regulation.

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13 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Sadly for Americans who are passionate about the "Americas Cup" that America as a country are unlikely to ever win the Cup for a long time. They made it very hard for the challengers in so many ways for over 100 years until Australia came along and broke the stranglehold. And now we have one of the smallest countries in the world appear seemingly unbeatable. I wonder, we will see America challenge again after some would review as a disastrous campaign? And now I believe we may have Country of citizenship what does America have in it's wardrobe to be a threat once again?

This is kind of bullshit. Americans have won the cup more than you since you have been involved while not even giving a shit. That combined with the Kiwi's sublime ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and it may not be so long. You cocky, insecure fucks will lose it sooner than you think.

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1 hour ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

I think that would be an interesting DoG clause to try to have removed from the DoG.  I get that 150 years ago they didn't want the loser to continually rechallenge in the same losing yacht.   

But these days, in the age of sophisticated boats that are literally changed daily, and multiple challengers in a CSS, it makes no sense that the best of the losers can't reuse their boat, but the worst of the losers can. 

Also, 150 years ago, the "same vessel" was fairly easy to define. But today?  Couldn't you argue that the foils are as significant as hull shape?  So, might new foils equate to it being a "new" boat?  Plus add in an updated computer and control system...  couldn't that make it a "new" boat?  

I think there is a case to be made to the NYSC. 

While I agree with you that LR probably has a lot more speed to be discovered and I agree there is much in the DoG that is no longer fit for purpose , I doubt anyone is going to try and get that individual clause removed.

A better route would be for the trustee and all former trustees get together and unanimously work on a complete rewrite of the deed.......and I do not rank that very high on the probability spectrum.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:



IMHO, this is not MCable (G. Schuyler himself once rejected a request for a second challenge with the same boat, but I cannot remember which boat it was. One of the Canadians?).
 

I think it was the third Canadian challenge from Cuthbert, which led to the introduction of the "no vessel -- 2 year" clause in the second version of the DoG.

 

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18 minutes ago, Will_Co said:

I think it was the third Canadian challenge from Cuthbert, which led to the introduction of the "no vessel -- 2 year" clause in the second version of the DoG.

 

Thanks, excellent memory!
I had the Canadians in mind, but couldn't find evidence so fast.

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1 minute ago, Will_Co said:

We Canadians have the benefit and ignobility of having only a brief acquaintance with the AC to recall. 

we were, a long time ago, a COR. and not too long ago there was Red Maple Racing, that went no where.

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4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I dont think so. It lost the match and cannot be in another match for a period of 2 years per DoG

No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any
Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened,
or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat.

 

Again..Im not a lawyer but I think I understand this to be the case.

If they can sufficiently remediate the structural problems with B1 they could use that hull and strip absolutely everything else off B2.

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5 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

While I agree with you that LR probably has a lot more speed to be discovered and I agree there is much in the DoG that is no longer fit for purpose , I doubt anyone is going to try and get that individual clause removed.

A better route would be for the trustee and all former trustees get together and unanimously work on a complete rewrite of the deed.......and I do not rank that very high on the probability spectrum.

because the DoG/NYSC wont recognise it. Anyone could still DoG challenge, that is the problem. You can have all the agreements in the world but all it takes is one wanker to piss in the pool.

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9 hours ago, pusslicker said:

This is kind of bullshit. Americans have won the cup more than you since you have been involved while not even giving a shit. That combined with the Kiwi's sublime ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and it may not be so long. You cocky, insecure fucks will lose it sooner than you think.

You are a tosser.! I've never won the cup you idiot I'm an individual. 

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10 hours ago, pusslicker said:

This is kind of bullshit. Americans have won the cup more than you since you have been involved while not even giving a shit. That combined with the Kiwi's sublime ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and it may not be so long. You cocky, insecure fucks will lose it sooner than you think.

We win a lotta Cups, but can’t live in the past.  We won the last 2 cups by hiring kiwis and aussies to run our campaigns and drive our boats. And we won by outspending the competition and by running extra long series so we could copy kiwi technologies.  Afraid we need a bit more #8 wire attitude before we will be able to mount a proper American challenge.

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On 3/23/2021 at 8:53 PM, terrafirma said:

Sadly for Americans who are passionate about the "Americas Cup" that America as a country are unlikely to ever win the Cup for a long time. They made it very hard for the challengers in so many ways for over 100 years until Australia came along and broke the stranglehold. And now we have one of the smallest countries in the world appear seemingly unbeatable. I wonder, we will see America challenge again after some would review as a disastrous campaign? And now I believe we may have Country of citizenship what does America have in it's wardrobe to be a threat once again?

No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others.  NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups..  NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire.  A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ.

Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered.  After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR.  They may never be able to get a sponsor.  It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup.

AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement.  UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement.

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20 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others.  NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups..  NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire.  A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ.

Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered.  After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR.  They may never be able to get a sponsor.  It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup.

AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement.  UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement.

Ok, so I'm not sure if this is a troll or not since some of this is wrong and some is right. But here goes my view.

 

1. NZ didn't have 1 year's advantage - more like 6 months but less over Prada.

2. I'm not sure why it is a ransom or fictitious. We don't know if it will go ahead for sure as it is one of many options floated (I for one consider it more of a bargaining chip against the Government, but fuck knows). If anyone pays for it to be held in the UK, I don't understand how it could be considered ransom since it is a willing exchange of money for hosting rights which is what happens all the time.

3. I agree that NZ's days in the cup are numbered (shrug). However, I don't see their actions as being afraid, but rather trying to leverage (VERY HARD) their position as cup holder for cash.

4. So I'm not sure that ETNZ have EVERY been selected as the Challenger of Record, but yes I agree that they have not showered themselves in glory.

5. If ETNZ and INEOS reach an agreement to host the subsequent AC in Auckland, as porthos has pointed out it will be unenforceable but will surely be backed up with a contract that carries HEAVY financial penalties (think $100 Million PLUS) for non-performance.

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36 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others.  NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups..  NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire.  A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ.

Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered.  After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR.  They may never be able to get a sponsor.  It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup.

AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement.  UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement.

Another anti NZ rant from the alchemist 

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

........

4. So I'm not sure that ETNZ have EVERY been selected as the Challenger of Record, but yes I agree that they have not showered themselves in glory.

........

Pretty sure ETNZ have never been CoR.

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5 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

No, you have a small country that is afraid of competing with others.  NZ had at least a year advantage on the design of a new boat that let them keep the cup for this cycle, but now they want to hold it hostage for two more cups..  NZ expects a billionaire to pay a ransom to sail in a fictitious "race" between them and the billionaire.  A race that means nothing because they then want the billionaire to pay for the next cup back in NZ.

Why is NZ afraid to sail against all competitors? Sadly, it is NZs days in the cup that are numbered.  After holding the cup hostage for their own ego and financial gain, they will never again be selected as a COR.  They may never be able to get a sponsor.  It is a shame that a proud sailing nation will leave a stain on the Americas Cup.

AS for the UK, do not be so naive as to believe that they will sail the next cup race in NZ based upon an unenforceable agreement.  UK will just hold the next cup in their own country and ignore the shame of an agreement.

Bold: This is the danger. Taking into account that most of the Defender/CoR relationships fall foul during their first Cup together, even huge fines in a side agreement may not help. 

Usually these contracts have loopholes and ambiguities, and need renegotiations when they should come into effect. Ready for some more litigation? 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

.......... Taking into account that most of the Defender/CoR relationships fall foul during their first Cup together ..............

Only once has the same club been CoR for two consecutive cycles - YC d'Hyeres from France in 1977 and 1980.

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9 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Sounds like NYYC Club will be back. That's great news...

https://fb.watch/4rFBw7IOkQ/

 

From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”.  Still some wiggle room in that quote. 

I hope they come back for my sake.  I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”.  Still some wiggle room in that quote. 

I hope they come back for my sake.  I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out.

WetHog  :ph34r:

You're not thinking laterally Hoggie. If they quit, it becomes more collectible. 

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@jaysper Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle??

 

55 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

If 1 of the big 3 sponsors is already in, that's big. Money attracts more money and the first big fish is always the hardest to land. The rest feel more comfortable joining something that already looks like it's going to be successful.

Yep - sounds like DeVos is in again (heard some positive feedback from crew members). Even if the other 2 bail then he should be able to gather some more cash - I wonder if just having a team again has gotten a lot of more of the NYYC members all excited and wanting to be part of the next one....

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14 minutes ago, NZK said:

Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle??

Did they actually have merch? If so, absolutely!

And if you can find any merch from 1995 (?) Russian Challenge when they tried to build a timber IACC you are RICH! :lol:

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27 minutes ago, NZK said:

@jaysper Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle??

 

Yep - sounds like DeVos is in again (heard some positive feedback from crew members). Even if the other 2 bail then he should be able to gather some more cash - I wonder if just having a team again has gotten a lot of more of the NYYC members all excited and wanting to be part of the next one....

Money will not really start rolling in until an event is announced that they can challenge for.

"If and when there is the next AC , would you like to contribute?" is way less compelling than

"Are you in for 'Bring Back the Cup 2024'  ?" 

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Stuck between a rock and a hard place, out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Cup seems to either have been in the hands of a billionaire who was a narcissistic person with sharp business scruples or probably decent people who start compromising in an endless scramble for cash for a good end but the means aren't good. 

Maybe JR isn't a narcissist. That world be good.

.

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23 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

probably decent people who start compromising in an endless scramble for cash for a good end but the means aren't good. 

If you start down the road of means justifying the ends, there is almost no place you can't find yourself if you're not careful.

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58 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Did they actually have merch? If so, absolutely!

And if you can find any merch from 1995 (?) Russian Challenge when they tried to build a timber IACC you are RICH! :lol:

The timber boat was from Yugoslavia, and was never finished. The Russian boats were both carbon.

One was built in an old missile factory, and had the most beautiful titanium mast fittings I had ever seen, although they were on an agricultural, overweight carbon mast. At one point, memorabilia from the Russian team representing the Leningrad Yacht Club was available (It was still called Leningrad Yacht Club in 1992, not St. Petersburg Yacht Club).

I had one of their team jackets, which was cool. Unfortunately, I gave it to to my rabidly anti-Communist brother-in-law as a joke. I suspect he burned it. Wish I had it now!

 

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1 minute ago, accnick said:

The timber boat was from Yugoslavia, and was never finished. The Russian boats were both carbon.

One was built in an old missile factory, and had the most beautiful titanium mast fittings I had ever seen, although they were on an agricultural, overweight carbon mast. At one point, memorabilia from the Russian team representing the Leningrad Yacht Club was available (It was still called Leningrad Yacht Club in 1992, not St. Petersburg Yacht Club).

I had one of their team jackets, which was cool. Unfortunately, I gave it to to my rabidly anti-Communist brother-in-law as a joke. I suspect he burned it. Wish I had it now!

 

Ah! Thanks for the correction.

I have no problem with people being rabidly anti-communist, but to the point of burning a nice jacket? Pfft!

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12 hours ago, jaysper said:
13 hours ago, WetHog said:

From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”.  Still some wiggle room in that quote. 

I hope they come back for my sake.  I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out.

WetHog  :ph34r:

You're not thinking laterally Hoggie. If they quit, it becomes more collectibl

The fact that the boats are staying there is a good sign. I think Terry knows more but is doing the right thing until there is some certainty around the next event? 

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39 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

The fact that the boats are staying there is a good sign. I think Terry knows more but is doing the right thing until there is some certainty around the next event? 

I think on the whole they were a good team. I would even go so far as to say that without the accident, their boat might have been faster than LR.

I don't think they would have beaten LR however as Deano and Hutch were obvious weaknesses IMO and at the pointy end of the regatta, Francesco and Jimmy would have put them to the sword.

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

I think on the whole they were a good team. I would even go so far as to say that without the accident, their boat might have been faster than LR.

I don't think they would have beaten LR however as Deano and Hutch were obvious weaknesses IMO and at the pointy end of the regatta, Francesco and Jimmy would have put them to the sword.

You never know.  I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed.