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If 1 of the big 3 sponsors is already in, that's big. Money attracts more money and the first big fish is always the hardest to land. The rest feel more comfortable joining something that already looks like it's going to be successful.

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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@jaysper Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle??

 

55 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

If 1 of the big 3 sponsors is already in, that's big. Money attracts more money and the first big fish is always the hardest to land. The rest feel more comfortable joining something that already looks like it's going to be successful.

Yep - sounds like DeVos is in again (heard some positive feedback from crew members). Even if the other 2 bail then he should be able to gather some more cash - I wonder if just having a team again has gotten a lot of more of the NYYC members all excited and wanting to be part of the next one....

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14 minutes ago, NZK said:

Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle??

Did they actually have merch? If so, absolutely!

And if you can find any merch from 1995 (?) Russian Challenge when they tried to build a timber IACC you are RICH! :lol:

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27 minutes ago, NZK said:

@jaysper Does that mean Stars and Stripes merch is the most valuable from this cycle??

 

Yep - sounds like DeVos is in again (heard some positive feedback from crew members). Even if the other 2 bail then he should be able to gather some more cash - I wonder if just having a team again has gotten a lot of more of the NYYC members all excited and wanting to be part of the next one....

Money will not really start rolling in until an event is announced that they can challenge for.

"If and when there is the next AC , would you like to contribute?" is way less compelling than

"Are you in for 'Bring Back the Cup 2024'  ?" 

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Stuck between a rock and a hard place, out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Cup seems to either have been in the hands of a billionaire who was a narcissistic person with sharp business scruples or probably decent people who start compromising in an endless scramble for cash for a good end but the means aren't good. 

Maybe JR isn't a narcissist. That world be good.

.

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23 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

probably decent people who start compromising in an endless scramble for cash for a good end but the means aren't good. 

If you start down the road of means justifying the ends, there is almost no place you can't find yourself if you're not careful.

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58 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Did they actually have merch? If so, absolutely!

And if you can find any merch from 1995 (?) Russian Challenge when they tried to build a timber IACC you are RICH! :lol:

The timber boat was from Yugoslavia, and was never finished. The Russian boats were both carbon.

One was built in an old missile factory, and had the most beautiful titanium mast fittings I had ever seen, although they were on an agricultural, overweight carbon mast. At one point, memorabilia from the Russian team representing the Leningrad Yacht Club was available (It was still called Leningrad Yacht Club in 1992, not St. Petersburg Yacht Club).

I had one of their team jackets, which was cool. Unfortunately, I gave it to to my rabidly anti-Communist brother-in-law as a joke. I suspect he burned it. Wish I had it now!

 

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1 minute ago, accnick said:

The timber boat was from Yugoslavia, and was never finished. The Russian boats were both carbon.

One was built in an old missile factory, and had the most beautiful titanium mast fittings I had ever seen, although they were on an agricultural, overweight carbon mast. At one point, memorabilia from the Russian team representing the Leningrad Yacht Club was available (It was still called Leningrad Yacht Club in 1992, not St. Petersburg Yacht Club).

I had one of their team jackets, which was cool. Unfortunately, I gave it to to my rabidly anti-Communist brother-in-law as a joke. I suspect he burned it. Wish I had it now!

 

Ah! Thanks for the correction.

I have no problem with people being rabidly anti-communist, but to the point of burning a nice jacket? Pfft!

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12 hours ago, jaysper said:
13 hours ago, WetHog said:

From that video, “it feels like the NYYC will come back”.  Still some wiggle room in that quote. 

I hope they come back for my sake.  I just dropped $30 on another AM hat and it will make it easier to absorb my wife’s wrath when she finds out.

WetHog  :ph34r:

You're not thinking laterally Hoggie. If they quit, it becomes more collectibl

The fact that the boats are staying there is a good sign. I think Terry knows more but is doing the right thing until there is some certainty around the next event? 

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39 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

The fact that the boats are staying there is a good sign. I think Terry knows more but is doing the right thing until there is some certainty around the next event? 

I think on the whole they were a good team. I would even go so far as to say that without the accident, their boat might have been faster than LR.

I don't think they would have beaten LR however as Deano and Hutch were obvious weaknesses IMO and at the pointy end of the regatta, Francesco and Jimmy would have put them to the sword.

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

I think on the whole they were a good team. I would even go so far as to say that without the accident, their boat might have been faster than LR.

I don't think they would have beaten LR however as Deano and Hutch were obvious weaknesses IMO and at the pointy end of the regatta, Francesco and Jimmy would have put them to the sword.

You never know.  I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed.

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On 3/24/2021 at 10:16 PM, jaysper said:

Ok, so I'm not sure if this is a troll or not since some of this is wrong and some is right. But here goes my view.

 

1. NZ didn't have 1 year's advantage - more like 6 months but less over Prada.

2. I'm not sure why it is a ransom or fictitious. We don't know if it will go ahead for sure as it is one of many options floated (I for one consider it more of a bargaining chip against the Government, but fuck knows). If anyone pays for it to be held in the UK, I don't understand how it could be considered ransom since it is a willing exchange of money for hosting rights which is what happens all the time.

3. I agree that NZ's days in the cup are numbered (shrug). However, I don't see their actions as being afraid, but rather trying to leverage (VERY HARD) their position as cup holder for cash.

4. So I'm not sure that ETNZ have EVERY been selected as the Challenger of Record, but yes I agree that they have not showered themselves in glory.

5. If ETNZ and INEOS reach an agreement to host the subsequent AC in Auckland, as porthos has pointed out it will be unenforceable but will surely be backed up with a contract that carries HEAVY financial penalties (think $100 Million PLUS) for non-performance.

Those are fair answers.  

1) We really do not know how much of a lead NZ had because they had been working on the concept for quite a while before it was disclosed to the other challengers.  We also had the foil arm problems that delayed teams like AM from launching for months.  No real world validation of the brand new simulation models is very significant.

2) I am being a little harsh because of my disdain for a 1:1 match.  It just violates the current principles of the AM and the only reason you would do that is to raise money or to artificially hang onto the cup as long as possible.  Neither shows good sportsmanship and indicates some "fear" of participating in a cup without those unprecedented restrictions.  

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39 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

You never know.  I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed.

Looking at Deanos past performances and how he and Hutch performed as a team in Auckland, do you HONESTLY think they could have won? I don't.

I am on record here in about October or November picking them as the challengers but after their appalling tactical decision making, it became obvious to me that a good boat was being let down by poor crew.

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34 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Those are fair answers.  

1) We really do not know how much of a lead NZ had because they had been working on the concept for quite a while before it was disclosed to the other challengers.  We also had the foil arm problems that delayed teams like AM from launching for months.  No real world validation of the brand new simulation models is very significant.

2) I am being a little harsh because of my disdain for a 1:1 match.  It just violates the current principles of the AM and the only reason you would do that is to raise money or to artificially hang onto the cup as long as possible.  Neither shows good sportsmanship and indicates some "fear" of participating in a cup without those unprecedented restrictions.  

I personally think the whole Isle if Wight and 1:1 is a negotiating ploy with the government.

However you don't need to look far on these boards to see how disappointed I am with their behaviour generally and in particular the suggestion that they want to impose the class of boat for the subsequent cup cycle.

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

You never know.  I do think AM was a faster boat and NZ eventually beat LR on speed, tend to think AM would have picked up the pace if they had not crashed.

AM were very unlucky. I hope they and LR will be invited for AC37.

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From what I understood Max Sirena, in a recent interview, told that TH will be again in charge, and that AM is ready to start. It will be interesting to see if he'll keep DB at the helm, or maybe put there PG. 

I'm expecting also a great synergy between AM and the Usa Olympic sailing team, now led by Paul Cayard.  

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If they rumours are true and AM are coming back, all I can say is that they will be gladly accepted back here in NZ.  TH struck me as a really decent guy and the whole crew conducted themselves well. They were good ambassadors for the AC. 
I do feel that they were also good team that suffered a lot of bad luck. Their boat was good, but hindered by some sort of balance issue that lead to rudder shaking. 
As for Deano and TH being on the boat in the next AC, that is a question that AM need to answer. 
 

What I’d love to see is the DOG matched canned and everyone come back in 2003 with one new boat each

 

 

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23 minutes ago, mako23 said:

What I’d love to see is the DOG matched canned and everyone come back in 2003 with one new boat each

Back to the future ;)

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2 hours ago, Zaal said:

From what I understood Max Sirena, in a recent interview, told that TH will be again in charge, and that AM is ready to start. It will be interesting to see if he'll keep DB at the helm, or maybe put there PG. 

I'm expecting also a great synergy between AM and the Usa Olympic sailing team, now led by Paul Cayard.  

Deano needs to realize what he couldn't after San Francisco, which is that he no longer belongs on an AC boat in any capacity. Hutch too, although Hutch is clearly more valuable in a shore role than Deano is.

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Seems to me that the proposed one-on-one ‘AC37’ option is fraught with potential problems and uncertainty, legal and otherwise. By far the safest, smartest move is to hold a multi-Chall event in Auckland, in 2024.

If Grant can’t make Auckland or the Govt pay for more than some ‘running the event fee’ (which he did agree to last time), well then he simply needs to go get his team campaign funding from elsewhere, again.

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I think an AC37 next year around Isle of Wight would be awsome, but everybody should be invited and the Deed should be respected, which means excluding the obligation to sign an AC38 protocol or any kind of binding.

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29 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think an AC37 next year around Isle of Wight would be awsome, but everybody should be invited and the Deed should be respected, which means excluding the obligation to sign an AC38 protocol or any kind of binding.

Yep, especially the deed being respected part. Anything else is disgraceful.

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think an AC37 next year around Isle of Wight would be awsome, but everybody should be invited and the Deed should be respected, which means excluding the obligation to sign an AC38 protocol or any kind of binding.

+1  I think an AC 37 in 2022 hosted at the site of the original race would be great.

But where we differ is that I think there should be a plan for 2024.  New teams will never be competitive for a 2022 event announced this year and nor will they be competitive for a 2024 event announced late in 2022. We want new teams to contemplate challenging for the AC in 2024.

I realize the ambiguous language of the DoG puts some hurdles in the way. However if there is a 2022 event then smart people sharing the same goals should be able to overcome that hurdle. We've talked about side agreements etc. The level of debate has highlighted some of the ambiguities of a century old deed being held up to a modern cup....I think and hope the ambiguities can be overcome. If the cannot, then I think a 2024 event announced late in 2022 will not be good for growing the cup and it would be better to just wait.  

Again, I prefer that the problems in the D0G can be overcome and the participants in 2022 could announce a 2024 class of yacht, then (and only then) it would be very exciting to look foward to seeing the 75' beasts sooner than 2024.

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9 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

+1  I think an AC 37 in 2022 hosted at the site of the original race would be great.

But where we differ is that I think there should be a plan for 2024.  New teams will never be competitive for a 2022 event announced this year and nor will they be competitive for a 2024 event announced late in 2022. We want new teams to contemplate challenging for the AC in 2024.

I realize the ambiguous language of the DoG puts some hurdles in the way. However if there is a 2022 event then smart people sharing the same goals should be able to overcome that hurdle. We've talked about side agreements etc. The level of debate has highlighted some of the ambiguities of a century old deed being held up to a modern cup....I think and hope the ambiguities can be overcome. If the cannot, then I think a 2024 event announced late in 2022 will not be good for growing the cup and it would be better to just wait.  

Again, I prefer that the problems in the D0G can be overcome and the participants in 2022 could announce a 2024 class of yacht, then (and only then) it would be very exciting to look foward to seeing the 75' beasts sooner than 2024.

I understand your objective but I think we can fullfill it by respecting the Deed.

If you have a 2022 event open to everybody we will have the present teams + new ones buying the old B1 boats or copying the B2s. I can even see Cammas doing it, and the event in UK diminishes transport costs. Obviously their participation is for training and prepare for AC38.

Then let's allow the AC37 winner to chose the boat, it could be an improved AC75 or a multi. And that would be for the best of the AC event, if we chose now the boat for AC38 it could be obsolete in 2024.

Other possibility could be pre CSS in 2022 but it would not be as attractive.

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48 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I understand your objective but I think we can fullfill it by respecting the Deed.

If you have a 2022 event open to everybody we will have the present teams + new ones buying the old B1 boats or copying the B2s. I can even see Cammas doing it, and the event in UK diminishes transport costs. Obviously their participation is for training and prepare for AC38.

Then let's allow the AC37 winner to chose the boat, it could be an improved AC75 or a multi, or a traditional keel boat ranging from 40' to 90' . And that would be for the best of the AC event, if we chose now the boat for AC38 it could be obsolete in 2024 (which is why serious new challenges may not want to commit to a program which will be obsolete in 15 months time ).

Other possibility could be pre CSS in 2022 but it would not be as attractive.

 

Unless there is a commitment to a class/design in 2024, then I think an event in 2022 is not going to attract new entrants for 2022 or 2024.

Nobody wants to embark on a serious 2+ year development plan in a class which might be obsolete in 15 months time

You can tell the new entrants that you cannot consider a challenge for 2024 until 2022. They will shrug. They are not asking you to consider their challenge or anyone else's challenge but merely specify the class of boat that the defender and all challengers have agreed to for 2024.  If the lawyers cant figure out how to draft such a side agreement, then either wait to 2024 or acknowledge the hurdle for new teams

 

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Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? 

The whole ACWS circus and CSS started in part as an attempt to keep sailors sailing and make the Cup financially more sustainable, no? 

A two boat Cup is relatively inexpensive.

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The idea of a 2022 event is just a shame to get funds to keep ETNZ team members in place.  There is no possible way that any new teams could mount a winnable challenge in the short of time.  Only the teams from the last cup could get a competitive boat in the water in that timeframe.  

If they really want to do something, then call it a Pre-AC regatta and allow all boats to race together at the same time.  Do not denigrate the Americas Cup by calling it an AC race.

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I know it's a ploy to get money, but in the old days we're there challenger selection series to pick who would race against NYYC? I don't think so but may be wrong. 

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26 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I know it's a ploy to get money, but in the old days we're there challenger selection series to pick who would race against NYYC? I don't think so but may be wrong. 

Challengers series didn't start until the 70s.

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

Unless there is a commitment to a class/design in 2024, then I think an event in 2022 is not going to attract new entrants for 2022 or 2024.

Nobody wants to embark on a serious 2+ year development plan in a class which might be obsolete in 15 months time

You can tell the new entrants that you cannot consider a challenge for 2024 until 2022. They will shrug. They are not asking you to consider their challenge or anyone else's challenge but merely specify the class of boat that the defender and all challengers have agreed to for 2024.  If the lawyers cant figure out how to draft such a side agreement, then either wait to 2024 or acknowledge the hurdle for new teams

 

You would get 4 teams + probably 2 new ones if they can buy boats for a good price, so 6 teams for 2022 and perhaps 2 more for 2024 = 8.

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6 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? 

The whole ACWS circus and CSS started in part as an attempt to keep sailors sailing and make the Cup financially more sustainable, no? 

A two boat Cup is relatively inexpensive.

It is Deed compliant. 

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8 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? 

The whole ACWS circus and CSS started in part as an attempt to keep sailors sailing and make the Cup financially more sustainable, no? 

A two boat Cup is relatively inexpensive.

How is keeping a campaign overhead budget running continuously between Cups financially more sustainable?

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You would get 4 teams + probably 2 new ones if they can buy boats for a good price, so 6 teams for 2022 and perhaps 2 more for 2024 = 8.

I suspect that any new teams that would be interested in investing in a program and boat for 2022 to gain experience for their teams would only be doing that as part of a 3 year plan to be competitive in 2024. 

It is unavoidable that these programs cost 10s of millions of dollars .  Without a roadmap to 2024, or at least a definition of the boat , I dont think we will see new teams appear. 

So I think there are 2 alternatives:

1, The next AC is in 2024 (hopefully in AC75s), with possibly ACWS events in 2022 and 2023.

2. The next AC is in 2022 accompanied by a side agreement, willingly entered into by the participating teams, that the 2024 event will be hosted in AC75s (or whatever boat is chosen)

The third alternative of defining that class of boat with only 15 month notice is not going to bring in new teams.

I agree 6-8 teams is doable but they will need a suitable lead time to raise funds and prepare a program

 

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10 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Once the Defender has accepted a Challenge, why isn't a 2 boat Cup deed compliant? 

 

In the strict sense, every Cup has only been a 2 boat event.

The Defender series and Challenger series define the 2 boats.

The Challenger series has evolved into what makes the modern day AC so exciting and a true international test of "best in the world". 

The DoG doesnt contemplate a Challenger series or mention it.  I find it ironic that some on these threads talk about "respecting the deed". In a pure sense that would be just a 1 vs 1 event between 2 clubs.

I question whether their strict interpretation of  the phrase in deed referring to  "when a challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided." allows for a challenger series. I ask the "strict interpretation" advocates  If a challenge from the HYC  has been received, how can a substitute challenge from RNZYC be considered merely because they won a series called the Luis Vuitton Cup?

The answer would be because Defender and Challenger mutually consented to overriding that provision. 

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5 hours ago, sailman said:

How is keeping a campaign overhead budget running continuously between Cups financially more sustainable?

I dunno but eg the AC45 series went on for years for some reason. 

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If the Challenger series does all that now why does everyone want 2007 or whatever? Boring CS or one C and the D, novelty might be an exciting change.  

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18 hours ago, mako23 said:

If they rumours are true and AM are coming back, all I can say is that they will be gladly accepted back here in NZ.  TH struck me as a really decent guy and the whole crew conducted themselves well. They were good ambassadors for the AC. 
I do feel that they were also good team that suffered a lot of bad luck. Their boat was good, but hindered by some sort of balance issue that lead to rudder shaking. 
As for Deano and TH being on the boat in the next AC, that is a question that AM need to answer. 
 

What I’d love to see is the DOG matched canned and everyone come back in 2003 with one new boat each

 

 

It seems like all of the teams want to sail the next cup in NZ, except for ETNZ....lol

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

It seems like all of the teams want to sail the next cup in NZ, except for ETNZ....lol

Sir Rat made it clear that as far as Ineos is concerned, the final decision will be down to NZ.   NZ have dangled the possibility of an event in the Solent in front of them and he ahs told them he would be very excited to do that...but the decision would be down to NZ.

FWIW, the DoG leaves the location to the defender as well.

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One thing’s obvious: GD/TNZ shouldn’t try to emulate some movie and plan to raise cash in a poker tournament - their bluff is so transparent! :D

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6 minutes ago, Xlot said:

One thing’s obvious: GD/TNZ shouldn’t try to emulate some movie and plan to raise cash in a poker tournament - their bluff is so ransparent! :D

Yep, it's always the same and always bullshit.

However I think this time they might actually be financially fucked and if that is the case, then they run a real risk if suffering the same fate as every other boy who cried Wolf.

That said, NZ governments in general are pretty hopeless with the current one being exceptionally so.

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Since the ETNZ paid-for Economic Impact Study promised revenues to the tune of ridiculous numbers like $600M to $1B and NZ is instead still in the hole waiting for that payback, well.. Funding ETNZ is going to be a pretty hard-sell to voter-sensitive politicos. GD needs a different funding model! 

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According to a quick google search NZ tourism generated 16.2 billion dollars, so $600 million was probably not overly optimistic. Covid has trashed that though. 

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13 minutes ago, amc said:

According to a quick google search NZ tourism generated 16.2 billion dollars, so $600 million was probably not overly optimistic. Covid has trashed that though. 

The problem is it used things like thousands of hotel rooms being filled and all the ancillary spending. The thing is, prior to covid, the hotels were full, finding rooms was not easy. So for every AC visitor we had to lose a normal visitor.

But like all numbers used to justify public expenditure, fluff and misdirection is standard.

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9 minutes ago, Gissie said:

But like all numbers used to justify public expenditure, fluff and misdirection is standard.

I've never seen any of these cost benefit analysis from any county for any event that smelled anything less than putrid.

Funny how none of them ever seem to say it's a bad idea. I guess it's cos politicians are just so damned good at picking winning ideas.

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For NZ its about spin of industries. Boat building repairs  and rockets, skis etc. it  is simply amazing what has come from it.

Rugby world cup a lot of fun but economics tricky.  

Is the AC worth it well the Netherlands has a boat building industry 20X bigger than here so plenty of upside.

If I was government I would look for leveraged outcomes if money goes in.

Film industry has had massive input it looks quite well spent in hindsight. 

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

I've never seen any of these cost benefit analysis from any county for any event that smelled anything less than putrid.

Funny how none of them ever seem to say it's a bad idea. I guess it's cos politicians are just so damned good at picking winning ideas.

I think the cost benefit analysis is tricky. I think of it as more of a branding exercise. The AC can promote NZ as a high tech country and not a bunch of sheep shagging farmers. 

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11 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I think the cost benefit analysis is tricky. I think of it as more of a branding exercise. The AC can promote NZ as a high tech country and not a bunch of sheep shagging farmers. 

What's wrong with loving yourself some sheep?

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Iplore tels us:

The answer would be because Defender and Challenger mutually consented to overriding that provision.

No.  Mutual consent is available for the purpose of setting the terms of the match.  It treats of such subjects that, were they to remain in dispute, a match could not be held.  This includes the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match.  Compare the breadth of these subjects with those the Deed prescribes in the event the competing teams are unable to come to mutually agreeable terms of the match.  You will find the extent of their applications is identical or, in less legalistic terms, the subjects that are open to mutual consent and those the Deed prescribes in its absence are terms of a match. 

The Deed makes clear that provisions accepted through mutual consent have the duration of the coming match.  Other provisions of the Deed are treated as timeless.  These provisions are not subject to change by the partys to a competition.  Only the trustee of the Cup has the authority to amend the Deed to permit racing in the Southern hemisphere or to remove from the Deed the provision requiring boats to sail "on their own bottom to the port where the contest is to take place."

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Since the ETNZ paid-for Economic Impact Study promised revenues to the tune of ridiculous numbers like $600M to $1B and NZ is instead still in the hole waiting for that payback, well.. Funding ETNZ is going to be a pretty hard-sell to voter-sensitive politicos. GD needs a different funding model! 

GD is working on another funding model that does NOT include Govt money. This is not a case of the Govt reluctant to give TNZ money. It is a case of TNZ not wanting Govt money or any Govt involvement in AC37. (ps. we should be discussing this in the TNZ thread!)

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2 hours ago, Barnyb said:

GD is working on another funding model that does NOT include Govt money. This is not a case of the Govt reluctant to give TNZ money. It is a case of TNZ not wanting Govt money or any Govt involvement in AC37. (ps. we should be discussing this in the TNZ thread!)

Sell the team to Ratcliffe?

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14 hours ago, Barnyb said:

GD is working on another funding model that does NOT include Govt money. This is not a case of the Govt reluctant to give TNZ money. It is a case of TNZ not wanting Govt money or any Govt involvement in AC37. (ps. we should be discussing this in the TNZ thread!)

But it makes a mockery out of the AC and insults all other competitors.  He is just trying to fund himself, hold onto the cup for two more cycles without having to win it, and prevent any NZ sailors from working for anyone else.  

He needs to find another sponsor instead of holding the cup hostage.  He has admitted that he can not pay his sailors the going rate, so he writes rules that forces them to work for him or not at all.  He is counting on the sailors and team to show loyalty to NZ when he doesn't.

The cold hard facts of the matter is if you can not afford to compete for the AC, then give it up.  Do not treat it like carnival side show.

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

But it makes a mockery out of the AC and insults all other competitors.  He is just trying to fund himself, hold onto the cup for two more cycles without having to win it, and prevent any NZ sailors from working for anyone else.  

He needs to find another sponsor instead of holding the cup hostage.  He has admitted that he can not pay his sailors the going rate, so he writes rules that forces them to work for him or not at all.  He is counting on the sailors and team to show loyalty to NZ when he doesn't.

The cold hard facts of the matter is if you can not afford to compete for the AC, then give it up.  Do not treat it like carnival side show.

^ This. He his doing things that would have brought the wrath of the kiwi fan boys if it was any other team. Instead most have gone quiet or making vague excuses.

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44 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. 

LR could as well ;), and AM also

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

^ This. He his doing things that would have brought the wrath of the kiwi fan boys if it was any other team. Instead most have gone quiet or making vague excuses.

In fact I would argue that if the rumours about locking the AC75 for 2 cycles is true, it is worse that what Orifice did in Bermuda.

At least Orifice didn't bar competitors from entry if they didn't sign up for the AC75.

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6 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

But it makes a mockery out of the AC and insults all other competitors.  He is just trying to fund himself, hold onto the cup for two more cycles without having to win it, and prevent any NZ sailors from working for anyone else.  

He needs to find another sponsor instead of holding the cup hostage.  He has admitted that he can not pay his sailors the going rate, so he writes rules that forces them to work for him or not at all.  He is counting on the sailors and team to show loyalty to NZ when he doesn't.

The cold hard facts of the matter is if you can not afford to compete for the AC, then give it up.  Do not treat it like carnival side show.

Mean while he has a new power catamaran in build in CHINA 

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3 hours ago, Gissie said:

^ This. He his doing things that would have brought the wrath of the kiwi fan boys if it was any other team. Instead most have gone quiet or making vague excuses.

It's called survival, Gissie.

No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences  - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest.

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

It's called survival, Gissie.

No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences  - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest.

Doesn't matter SBD.

It all comes down to principles. If you abandon your principles as soon as the shit hits the fan, then they were not really your principles in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

It's called survival, Gissie.

No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences  - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest.

Sorry, I forgot that trying to save a private sports team, in a super expensive boat you insisted on, excused being a total cunt.

Will keep it in mind. Or not.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Doesn't matter SBD.

It all comes down to principles. If you abandon your principles as soon as the shit hits the fan, then they were not really your principles in the first place.

Principles are all well and good while your alive. If your dead, who gives a fuck. Certainly not the corpse.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Sorry, I forgot that trying to save a private sports team, in a super expensive boat you insisted on, excused being a total cunt.

Will keep it in mind. Or not.

So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place?

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place?

Personally fella, I'd either find a way without doing this stuff or let the team fold.

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place?

Who knows, but I would prefer to fold the team than behave the way he is. Prostitution the cup for his own ego and bullshit, just an asshole.

Unfortunately the diehard Kiwi fans make Canterbury supporters look like they have 20/20 vision. Prepared to cast all morals aside for another shot at the chalice. Just as much assholes as Dalts.

 

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3 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Who knows, but I would prefer to fold the team than behave the way he is. Prostitution the cup for his own ego and bullshit, just an asshole.

Unfortunately the diehard Kiwi fans make Canterbury supporters look like they have 20/20 vision. Prepared to cast all morals aside for another shot at the chalice. Just as much assholes as Dalts.

 

C'mon, Gissie. "Who knows?". That's a pretty lofty pedestal you're tiptoeing on.

14 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Personally fella, I'd either find a way without doing this stuff or let the team fold.

What are your suggestions, Jays? Obviously, you think GD needs help. Let's hear what you would do to overcome this Team funding crisis. 

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

What are your suggestions, Jays? Obviously, you think GD needs help. Let's hear what you would do to overcome this Team funding crisis. 

Well, I think he has (as he always has) been clear they need funds.

Normally I call bullshit on it, but with the loss of Emirates I suspect this time its for real.

Aside from his normal extortion attempts of the Government, I have no idea what (if anything) he can do to fund the team which is why I offered letting the team fold as an alternative.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

In fact I would argue that if the rumours about locking the AC75 for 2 cycles is true, it is worse that what Orifice did in Bermuda.

At least Orifice didn't bar competitors from entry if they didn't sign up for the AC75.

To be fair the London framework agreement thing had a few other stinky parts to it like the defender sailing in the challenger series.
I suspect there were a few things ETNZ might have gone for in that agreement but overall as a package no. 

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

C'mon, Gissie. "Who knows?". That's a pretty lofty pedestal you're tiptoeing on.

Never having been in the position he is probably in, note we are all guessing and he has played the woe is me I have no money card for years, I don't really know the options open to him. Sorry if I can't be bothered to make stuff up to sound amazingly erudite.

What I do know is I would not want to tarnish my team, or the event, in a desperate move to stay semi-viable. Maybe if he hadn't shat all over Prada and kept them as CoR going forward he may have had some more options. Maybe he did that at the behest of Ineos on vague promises of help. Maybe it was, is just the lashing out of a large ego watching his legacy turn to custard. What he seems to not realise is his great legacy is in danger of turning into a mockery of what it should be.

Lots of folk have had shit smeared all over their lives in the last year. Lots without both family money and a multi million dollar salary for some years to fall back on. Sorry, but sympathy can be found in the dictionary somewhere between shit and syphilis.

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48 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Personally fella, I'd either find a way without doing this stuff or let the team fold.

It’s this just a GD decision or do the other 100 people at ETNZ have a say in losing their job. 

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. 

So winning is all about money, you shouldn’t compete unless you have a friendly billionaire or two. 

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13 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Never having been in the position he is probably in, note we are all guessing and he has played the woe is me I have no money card for years, I don't really know the options open to him. Sorry if I can't be bothered to make stuff up to sound amazingly erudite.

What I do know is I would not want to tarnish my team, or the event, in a desperate move to stay semi-viable. Maybe if he hadn't shat all over Prada and kept them as CoR going forward he may have had some more options. Maybe he did that at the behest of Ineos on vague promises of help. Maybe it was, is just the lashing out of a large ego watching his legacy turn to custard. What he seems to not realise is his great legacy is in danger of turning into a mockery of what it should be.

Lots of folk have had shit smeared all over their lives in the last year. Lots without both family money and a multi million dollar salary for some years to fall back on. Sorry, but sympathy can be found in the dictionary somewhere between shit and syphilis.

This just sounds like sour grapes 

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55 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place?

I would try to gain time with shitty projects until I get the money. Probably what he does now, IF he gets the pesos one day.

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7 minutes ago, mako23 said:

This just sounds like sour grapes 

Wow, wanting my team to behave in a sportsman like manner is sour grapes these days?

The thing is, as a supporter, are also a reflection of that be teams behaviour. As I find their behaviour, since accusing Bertelli of lacking sportsmanship, to not be the sort I can support. You are obviously different and are prepared to condone anything for a sport team to survive. No problem with me, but it likely reflects on your own personality as far as I am concerned. Which, obviously you shouldn't care about, as we are no one to each other. 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

It's called survival, Gissie.

No-one predicted a worldwide pandemic, least of all its consequences  - especially Emirates Airlines I'd suggest.

It is not survival!  If you can't compete with he Big Boys, do not drag the event down to your level.  

They are only interested in the survival of their "team", not in what happens to the Cup.  That is Fck'd up priorities!

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

So, put the hysterics aside for a second and tell me what you would do in GD's place?

I would do what every other AC team has done and find sponsors to fund the team. I would not pull some gimmicks to make money off of the Americas Cup.  So what if he loses some sailors of team members, it happens to everyone.

You can't make it any clearer that what jasper said:  

2 hours ago, jaysper said:

It all comes down to principles. If you abandon your principles as soon as the shit hits the fan, then they were not really your principles in the first place.

There are many good teams in the past that have not competed lately because of a lack of sponsors.  NZ has had a very good run, but if you can't afford to compete then bow out with class and dignity like your country deserves.

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4 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

 NZ has had a very good run, but if you can't afford to compete then bow out with class and dignity like your country deserves.

This.

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1 hour ago, .......................... said:

Maybe time for TNZ to call on prodigal son Chris Liddell to go get some of the Trump money, maybe GM or Microsoft...

Trump has no money and those American companies have no need to advertise in the AC.  If you will notice, most of the past sponsors have been from companies that make luxury products or are owned by sailors.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Wow, wanting my team to behave in a sportsman like manner is sour grapes these days?

The thing is, as a supporter, are also a reflection of that be teams behaviour. As I find their behaviour, since accusing Bertelli of lacking sportsmanship, to not be the sort I can support. You are obviously different and are prepared to condone anything for a sport team to survive. No problem with me, but it likely reflects on your own personality as far as I am concerned. Which, obviously you shouldn't care about, as we are no one to each other. 

Previously you said you were supporting Prada. Now your supporting ETNZ ??

Which one is it ?

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49 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Trump has no money and those American companies have no need to advertise in the AC.  If you will notice, most of the past sponsors have been from companies that make luxury products or are owned by sailors.

And most of the ones that are sailors have moved to things like TP52 etc as they aren't that interested in being in a Red Bull compitition.

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

Previously you said you were supporting Prada. Now your supporting ETNZ ??

Which one is it ?

Man you really do have second language English comprehension. They were my team, then they started behaving in a manner I found difficult to stomach. At that point I preferred Prada to take the chalice, on the chance it would give my team an opportunity to sort their shit out or just quietly fold.

Sadly neither happened.

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2 hours ago, mako23 said:

It’s this just a GD decision or do the other 100 people at ETNZ have a say in losing their job. 

So let's be clear, trying to force the AC75 for the next 2 cup cycles has nothing to do with funding, so lack of sponsorship is absolutely no excuse.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

So let's be clear, trying to force the AC75 for the next 2 cup cycles has nothing to do with funding, so lack of sponsorship is absolutely no excuse.

They can’t force anything, soon as someone else wins the cup the rules start again. 

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Man you really do have second language English comprehension. They were my team, then they started behaving in a manner I found difficult to stomach. At that point I preferred Prada to take the chalice, on the chance it would give my team an opportunity to sort their shit out or just quietly fold.

Sadly neither happened.

You have a check saying English is my second language

To quote you directly 

5 hours ago, Gissie said:
6 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

One reason I hoped Ineos would win AC36 was they could afford to defend. 

I was behind Prada.

That states you were supporting Prada to win, unless you lying to NeedAClew.

Seems you chop and change your opinion like the wind changes. 

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