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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Do you know RYS Ltd's own annual regatta's name?

I’m on my phone and the chance of me finding it successfully rounds to zero. Search the forum for “cowes” and you’ll find the info you want. Dogwatch posted it.

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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2 minutes ago, porthos said:

Except even the best paid lawyers can’t change facts. Nor can they change court precedent or the manner in which a court analyzes a dispute. Those are all fixed. To give HR some credit, he correctly noted that the NYSC would get out the deed and start ticking boxes to see if RYS Ltd. met the requirements. That’s pretty much it. Is it a yacht club? Is in incorporated or recognized? Does it hold and annual regatta? The court won’t do much else beyond looking for those answers. 

And the court would take a lot of time to schedule all that. EB used that to his advantage, to try build a boat in time to meet DZ, there were something like 15 cases heard and he lost 14 of them but did gain time. 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

And the court would take a lot of time to schedule all that. EB used that to his advantage, to try build a boat in time to meet DZ, there were something like 15 cases heard and he lost 14 of them but did gain time. 

Nothing would change unless the court issued an injunction at outset. 
 

I think I found dog’s info: https://www.rys.org.uk/assets/documents/nor-members-regatta-2019-v10.pdf

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7 minutes ago, porthos said:

Except even the best paid lawyers can’t change facts. Nor can they change court precedent or the manner in which a court analyzes a dispute. Those are all fixed. To give HR some credit, he correctly noted that the NYSC would get out the deed and start ticking boxes to see if RYS Ltd. met the requirements. That’s pretty much it. Is it a yacht club? Is in incorporated or recognized? Does it hold and annual regatta? The court won’t do much else beyond looking for those answers. 

You may be right, but if there is some incertainty about meeting the requirements, the question is to know if the defender is willing or even able to go to court. The NYYC may just be playing on that.

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2 minutes ago, porthos said:

Nothing would change unless the court issued an injunction at outset. 
 

I think I found dog’s info: https://www.rys.org.uk/assets/documents/nor-members-regatta-2019-v10.pdf

Agreed, looks like a legit own annual regatta, although this part is touch funny..

VENUE 8.1 The venue for the Regatta will be the Solent and the Official Notice Board will be at the Royal Yacht Squadron.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, porthos said:

Nothing would change unless the court issued an injunction at outset. 
 

I think I found dog’s info: https://www.rys.org.uk/assets/documents/nor-members-regatta-2019-v10.pdf

"ROYAL YACHT SQUADRON RACING MEMBER’S REGATTA 14 – 16th JUNE 2019 COWES ORGANIZING AUTHORITY: ROYAL YACHT SQUADRON RACING LTD"

Hard for their lawyers to get around that and the Articles of Association. Plus RYS members are also RYS Ltd members.

 

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Great! Can we now put all this Speculation about the RYS not being a "Legit Challenger" to bed?

Their Challenge is legit!

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You may be right, but if there is some incertainty about meeting the requirements, the question is to know if the defender is willing or even able to go to court. The NYYC may just be playing on that.

I suspect if it comes to that, the funds to fight it will appear from some place. The AC actually makes lawyers look cheap.

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed, looks like a legit own annual regatta, although this part is touch funny..

VENUE 8.1 The venue for the Regatta will be the Solent and the Official Notice Board will be at the Royal Yacht Squadron.

 

 

And that is the kind of compelling thing lawyers for NYYC would have as their bullets. “But, but, it MENTIONED Royal Yacht Squadron”.  I just don’t see the NYSC getting into those weeds. There is pretty clear and obvious evidence that RYS Ltd.  is a yacht club with members and those members have an annual regatta. Q.E.D.

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1 minute ago, porthos said:

And that is the kind of compelling thing lawyers for NYYC would have as their bullets. “But, but, it MENTIONED Royal Yacht Squadron”.  I just don’t see the NYSC getting into those weeds. There is pretty clear and obvious evidence that RYS Ltd.  is a yacht club with members and those members have an annual regatta. Q.E.D.

"But, but, why would they not post on the Official Notice Board their own Club's Official Notice Board, if they had a Club?" :)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

"But, but, why would they not post on the Official Notice Board their own Club's Official Notice Board, if they had a Club?" :)

 

 

Yep. That’s what NYYC would be left with. The notice board argument. Eddie Izzard would love it.

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16 minutes ago, porthos said:

I suspect if it comes to that, the funds to fight it will appear from some place. The AC actually makes lawyers look cheap.

Well, you would have to persuade a sponsor that they have to pay to go to court to prove that the CoR is ligit, and even if they win in court they don't know if they can win on the water. The more we go the more i may think that the NYYC is using it as a ploy to negotiate.

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, you would have to persuade a sponsor that they have to pay to go to court to prove that the CoR is ligit, and even if they win in court they don't know if they can win on the water. The more we go the more i may think that the NYYC is using it as a ploy to negotiate.

Jim would just check his couch cushions for some loose change. 

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

So what? To me, that spells out them being separate entities?  

Should have explained better - The articles say they can be.

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6 minutes ago, porthos said:

Jim would just check his couch cushions for some loose change. 

Yes, but why would Jim use his spare change to help the defender ? mainly if the NYYC offers a race in UK in his protocol ? Why would Jim risk to be in court for years if he can challenge or defend in UK,  included in the prot ?

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18 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, but why would Jim use his spare change to help the defender ? mainly if the NYYC offers a race in UK in his protocol ? Why would Jim risk to be in court for years if he can challenge or defend in UK,  included in the prot ?

Jim's pov re funding Cowes event which seems to be the source of NYYC grief

“The fact is,” he says, “New Zealand are a commercially-funded team. Grant Dalton, their boss, does not have an Ineos behind him. This event, if it happens, would be a platform, which might help them raise funding to keep that team together.”

Ratcliffe says he would not fund the event himself. “Absolutely not,” he says. “I want to be clear about that. Because that would be sort of like buying the Cup into the UK and I don't think that's appropriate.”

He's also quite possibly ahead of the game as well viz

Ratcliffe admits they might get “a bit of flak” from other syndicates. But he points out that no one else would really be ready to contest another Cup so soon anyway. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sailing/2021/03/24/sir-jim-ratcliffe-continuing-americas-cup-quest-chance-magical/

 

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24 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

 

Ratcliffe admits they might get “a bit of flak” from other syndicates. But he points out that no one else would really be ready to contest another Cup so soon anyway.

Jim was visionary about that, but the cup is not only about winning on the water, he knows it. He is in a strong position anyway, whatever happens, the defender is not.

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25 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Jim was visionary about that, but the cup is not only about winning on the water, he knows it. He is in a strong position anyway, whatever happens, the defender is not.

Yep and one would have to be wondering what's happening inside their Portsmouth HQ and Carrington's. Wont be standing still that's for sure.

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

My guess is that there's a real possibility that even under their new name (and... which name did the Ineos team Challenge under?) the now-named RYS Limited is still a commercial entity and not a YC. They have no Commodore and no YC.  

I heard Hamish Ross get pretty deep into all this a few weeks back when he was on TE's Sailing Illustrated show, it was show # 408 I think and that discussion happened starting at around 120 minutes into the show.

 

I love some of the comments on these forums. The title given to the 'head' of a club is immaterial. COmmodore, CEO, GM - it's all the same - it is the guy (or gal) where the buck stops. I understand there are some clubs so egalitarian where there is not even an individual as a 'commodore' and some clubs even have an Admiral (RYS included) and I myself was the honorary admiral of our club. 

For the avoidance of doubt the DoG requires certain things of a club and as evidenced from the past it doesn't even need to be called a "Club" - RYS & RNZYS for example. It does however have to be recognised by legislature etc etc. The Royal Yacht Squadron Limited which runs a good percentage of the RYS races is indeed recognised by the Royal Yacht Association as a bona fide club - end of discussion.

By the way Team INEOS UK challenged under the burgee of the RYSL for AC35 & AC36

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Lynn F, apparently arguing the case that the Defender should be able to shop the venue for their own financial benefit. The NYYC does not seem to feel it’s any necessity. 
 

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2021/05/10/americas-cup-a-view-from-the-trenches/

Funny how it was OK for one USA team to defend in other than home waters (GGYC & Bermuda) but another USA Team (NYYC) seems to feel it shouldn't be a necessity.

 

2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

"But, but, why would they not post on the Official Notice Board their own Club's Official Notice Board, if they had a Club?" :)

 

 

You mean like this?

joint-statement-from-royal-yacht-squadron-ltd-and-ineos-team-uk.pdf (rys.org.uk)

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9 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Funny how it was OK for one USA team to defend in other than home waters (GGYC & Bermuda) but another USA Team (NYYC) seems to feel it shouldn't be a necessity.

 

You mean like this?

joint-statement-from-royal-yacht-squadron-ltd-and-ineos-team-uk.pdf (rys.org.uk)

It might be of assistance to  some  if one translates that press release from English into English

1048938_4197066504933_767524735_o.jpg

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6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

My guess is that there's a real possibility that even under their new name (and... which name did the Ineos team Challenge under?) the now-named RYS Limited is still a commercial entity and not a YC. They have no Commodore and no YC.  

I heard Hamish Ross get pretty deep into all this a few weeks back when he was on TE's Sailing Illustrated show, it was show # 408 I think and that discussion happened starting at around 120 minutes into the show.

 

HR also wanted to make us believe that the RNZYS is not Deed legit. That was the moment he lost it all.

3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed, looks like a legit own annual regatta, although this part is touch funny..

VENUE 8.1 The venue for the Regatta will be the Solent and the Official Notice Board will be at the Royal Yacht Squadron.

Would the window of the local butcher be better? 

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

"But, but, why would they not post on the Official Notice Board their own Club's Official Notice Board, if they had a Club?

They are the club, so that is their official notice board. Please do not get distracted by the "ltd" in the name, that is required for any entity "limited by guarantee" in the UK.

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2 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I love some of the comments on these forums. The title given to the 'head' of a club is immaterial. COmmodore, CEO, GM - it's all the same - it is the guy (or gal) where the buck stops. I understand there are some clubs so egalitarian where there is not even an individual as a 'commodore' and some clubs even have an Admiral (RYS included) and I myself was the honorary admiral of our club. 

For the avoidance of doubt the DoG requires certain things of a club and as evidenced from the past it doesn't even need to be called a "Club" - RYS & RNZYS for example. It does however have to be recognised by legislature etc etc. The Royal Yacht Squadron Limited which runs a good percentage of the RYS races is indeed recognised by the Royal Yacht Association as a bona fide club - end of discussion.

By the way Team INEOS UK challenged under the burgee of the RYSL for AC35 & AC36

if it's ok to race under the burgee, then it's ok to challenge under it

homebanner-5-1.jpg

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7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, but why would Jim use his spare change to help the defender ? mainly if the NYYC offers a race in UK in his protocol ? Why would Jim risk to be in court for years if he can challenge or defend in UK,  included in the prot ?

I may be missing something, but it's pretty much self-interest on Jim's part. If Jim doesn't use his spare change to help prove RYS Ltd. is a legitimate club, then Jim doesn't get to participate in the AC. In other words, if nobody shows up in court to contest a claim by NYYC that RYS Ltd. is not a deed-compliant club, the court will grant NYYC's petition and RYS Ltd. will not be able to participate in the AC.  And if RYS Ltd. cannot participate in the AC, then Jim is out of a club. INEOS can't just show up and race, regardless of who is hosting the AC or which protocol is being used -- INEOS must be affiliated with a club.  I suppose RYS could step in and then be the club of record for INEOS, but why would RYS do that for Jim he couldn't be bothered to defend RYS Ltd. the first time around? Why would any club throw in with INEOS if Jim showed he wasn't willing to defend the legitimacy of the club in court?

And just to be clear, if a challenge came from NYYC regarding the legitimacy of RYS Ltd., RYS Ltd. would have standing to show up and defend itself. This wouldn't have to go through ETNZ.

Plus, I think there is another reason. This is rank speculation on my part so give it the value it is due. But I don't think someone gets to Jim's rank and station by being pushed around by a bully. I don't think he would personally countenance that now, either.

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4 hours ago, JonRowe said:

 

They are the club, so that is their official notice board. Please do not get distracted by the "ltd" in the name, that is required for any entity "limited by guarantee" in the UK.

Yeah, but I will say it's a bit like Schrodinger's Club -- it's two clubs and one club at the same time. They are legally separate. RYS remains an unincorporated association and RYS Ltd. is very much incorporated. I'm quite certain the members would like a court to get distracted by the "Ltd." should any liability arise.

At the same time, the members of both clubs are identical -- if you are a member of one,  you are a member of another. If you no longer are a member of RYS, you cannot be a member of RYS Ltd. RYS Ltd. holds its regatta using RYS's facilities, and the members sailing in the regatta are simultaneously members of RYS and RYS Ltd.

None of that is going to cause the NYSC any heartburn. But you can't say that they are entirely separate clubs, nor can you say they are entirely the same club. They are essentially the same club for some purposes, but different ones for other purposes. It's a distinction perhaps only a lawyer could love. 

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36 minutes ago, porthos said:

Yeah, but I will say it's a bit like Schrodinger's Club -- it's two clubs and one club at the same time. They are legally separate. RYS remains an unincorporated association and RYS Ltd. is very much incorporated. I'm quite certain the members would like a court to get distracted by the "Ltd." should any liability arise.

At the same time, the members of both clubs are identical -- if you are a member of one,  you are a member of another. If you no longer are a member of RYS, you cannot be a member of RYS Ltd. RYS Ltd. holds its regatta using RYS's facilities, and the members sailing in the regatta are simultaneously members of RYS and RYS Ltd.

None of that is going to cause the NYSC any heartburn. But you can't say that they are entirely separate clubs, nor can you say they are entirely the same club. They are essentially the same club for some purposes, but different ones for other purposes. It's a distinction perhaps only a lawyer could love. 

I believe the RYS is an incorporated association. I may be mistaken but I believe I read that somewhere.

The challenge is from RYS Racing Ltd, which is an incorporated club established to run the racing of RYS. So you are correct that there are two legal entities.

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12 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

My guess is that there's a real possibility that even under their new name (and... which name did the Ineos team Challenge under?) the now-named RYS Limited is still a commercial entity and not a YC. They have no Commodore and no YC.  

I heard Hamish Ross get pretty deep into all this a few weeks back when he was on TE's Sailing Illustrated show, it was show # 408 I think and that discussion happened starting at around 120 minutes into the show.

 

It’s been RYS ltd for the ac35,36 and now 37.

 

stop being stupid

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7 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

It’s been RYS ltd for the ac35,36 and now 37.

 

stop being stupid

Actually it was "Royal Yacht Squadron Racing, Ltd." for AC 35 and AC36, and then it changed its name to "Royal Yacht Squadron, Ltd." for AC37, which has some people in a tizzy. 

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1 hour ago, porthos said:

But you can't say that they are entirely separate clubs, nor can you say they are entirely the same club.

It is the legal entity that represents the club, it is not distinct, nor is it the club, but it is the bit of paper for it.

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Does anyone else think having the Cup bogged down in court by a coup attempt may be the fastest way to promote SailGP as the pinnacle event in the sport?

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48 minutes ago, cbulger said:

Does anyone else think having the Cup bogged down in court by a coup attempt may be the fastest way to promote SailGP as the pinnacle event in the sport?

Ain’t no bogging down on these facts. I have a feeling a few lawyers are overpromising because they need to get some revenues in to replace all that Stop the Steal billing. It’s fascinating how gullible billionaires can be when it comes to their hobbies. 

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11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed, looks like a legit own annual regatta, although this part is touch funny..

VENUE 8.1 The venue for the Regatta will be the Solent and the Official Notice Board will be at the Royal Yacht Squadron.

 

 

Not every yacht club has its own physical facilities. 

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32 minutes ago, accnick said:

Not every yacht club has its own physical facilities. 

Yes, it seems hard to make a case for arguing the illegitimacy of RYS Ltd. 

But as Porthos has pointed out, this Challenge being handed in (apparently in-person) at the RNZYS makes a lot more sense if there are some kind of questions being raised about the legitimacy of the first Challenge. 

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3 hours ago, cbulger said:

Does anyone else think having the Cup bogged down in court by a coup attempt may be the fastest way to promote SailGP as the pinnacle event in the sport?

Good point, the irony is that both Larry, Ernesto and the NYYC could a common interest in it.

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4 hours ago, JonRowe said:

 

It is the legal entity that represents the club, it is not distinct, nor is it the club, but it is the bit of paper for it.

The Royal Yacht Squadron is an incorporated organization. I'm not sure of the full name of the organization. It should be easy to find out. That means it is a legal entity in itself. A legal entity is created with paper but it is a real thing which owns assets, employs people and creates contractual obligations.  

The legal entity may be represented by employees and members , but they are representing the entity, not the other way around.  @MR.CLEAN can explain this much better than me.

Anyway RYS(r) ltd was the person who challenged for the cup. RYS(r) Ltd was represented by a natural person....the commodore . 

 

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16 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The Royal Yacht Squadron is an incorporated organization. I'm not sure of the full name of the organization. It should be easy to find out. That means it is a legal entity in itself. A legal entity is created with paper but it is a real thing which owns assets, employs people and creates contractual obligations.  

The legal entity may be represented by employees and members , but they are representing the entity, not the other way around.  @MR.CLEAN can explain this much better than me.

Anyway RYS(r) ltd was the person who challenged for the cup. RYS(r) Ltd was represented by a natural person....the commodore . 

 

Not that it much matters, but there are no records on the UK Companies House website indicating Royal Yacht Squadron is incorporated. If RYS were incorporated, records of that incorporation should show up there. If it were incorporated, there also would have been no need to incorporate Yacht Squadron Racing, Ltd. back in 2014 (which eventually changed its name to Royal Yacht Squadron Racing, Ltd. and then to Royal Yacht Squadron, Ltd.)  The fact that they incorporated RYS, Ltd. suggests that RYS remains an unincorporated association. Moreover, others here who certainly seem to know, like @dogwatch, have indicated that RYS is unincorporated and that RYS, Ltd. is the incorporated arm of the unincorporated RYS. 

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3 minutes ago, porthos said:

Not that it much matters, but there are no records on the UK Companies House website indicating Royal Yacht Squadron is incorporated. If RYS were incorporated, records of that incorporation should show up there. If it were incorporated, there also would have been no need to incorporate Yacht Squadron Racing, Ltd. back in 2014 (which eventually changed its name to Royal Yacht Squadron Racing, Ltd. and then to Royal Yacht Squadron, Ltd.)  The fact that they incorporated RYS, Ltd. suggests that RYS remains an unincorporated association. Moreover, others here who certainly seem to know, like @dogwatch, have indicated that RYS is unincorporated and that RYS, Ltd. is the incorporated arm of the unincorporated RYS. 

I can remember that - probably during AC33 - someone wrote that the "Royal" means that a certain form of incorporation/registration/patent/license according to the DoG must have taken place.
Could that be?

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18 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I can remember that - probably during AC33 - someone wrote that the "Royal" means that a certain form of incorporation/registration/patent/license according to the DoG must have taken place.
Could that be?

I can't remember what I wore last week.

I know RYS has challenged for the cup many times under the Deed, and as far as I know nobody then questioned whether RYS was a recognized yacht club. So I assume RYS is recognized at least as much as the Deed requires. The name "Royal" may denote that recognition, but I certainly can't confirm that. 

What I do know is that "incorporation" has a specific legal meaning that I assume means the same thing in the UK that it means where I practice, which is to say the government has recognized the entity as a specific corporate form and there are certain filing requirements associated with it. 

So the problem -- and it really isn't a problem at all -- may be one of nomenclature between "recognized" and "incorporated", with the former being informally formal and the latter being formally formal.

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8 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I can remember that - probably during AC33 - someone wrote that the "Royal" means that a certain form of incorporation/registration/patent/license according to the DoG must have taken place.
Could that be?

Can't be done without royal consent in the case of clubs , but things like the Royal Oak pub are more of an ecumenical matter to quote Father Ted.

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3 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Can't be done without royal consent in the case of clubs , but things like the Royal Oak pub are more of an ecumenical matter to quote Father Ted.

I remember that the "Royal" is a name of hono(u)r given by the King or Queen and signaling official recognition = patent/license. I may be wrong tho. 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

I remember that the "Royal" is a name of hono(u)r given by the King or Queen and signaling official recognition = patent/license. I may be wrong tho. 

Pretty much I believe. There's at least one person here well qualified to lay it out so I'll invite them take the stage.

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On 5/11/2021 at 5:18 PM, shebeen said:

if it's ok to race under the burgee, then it's ok to challenge under it

homebanner-5-1.jpg

And Sir Ben is an Honorary member after all

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On 5/12/2021 at 3:34 AM, Stingray~ said:

But as Porthos has pointed out, this Challenge being handed in (apparently in-person) at the RNZYS makes a lot more sense if there are some kind of questions being raised about the legitimacy of the first Challenge. 

That’s what the Italians did when RNZYS won the cup in Bermuda.  Are your saying their challenge was suspected to be illegitimate ?

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11 minutes ago, mako23 said:

That’s what the Italians did when RNZYS won the cup in Bermuda.  Are your saying their challenge was suspected to be illegitimate ?

Nope, nobody and no events (like the NYYC Challenge) to my recollection ever brought up the legitimacy of Prada's YC, Sicilia-Whatever.

There were planned and had been a history too of all kinds of tight financial and other dealings between the two parties though, as has been very widely discussed on this forum. Did it include years-long 'consideration' and ultimately 'self-dealing'? 

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51 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Nope, nobody and no events (like the NYYC Challenge) to my recollection ever brought up the legitimacy of Prada's YC, Sicilia-Whatever.

There were planned and had been a history too of all kinds of tight financial and other dealings between the two parties though, as has been very widely discussed on this forum. Did it include years-long 'consideration' and ultimately 'self-dealing'? 

I'll just assume I have missed something or that I'm stupid. Can you please put some more detail in what you meant in the bolded part? Who was self-dealing?

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52 minutes ago, porthos said:

I'll just assume I have missed something or that I'm stupid. Can you please put some more detail in what you meant in the bolded part? Who was self-dealing?

Hell no, not assuming that you are stupid! I love your contributions here.

Again, the relationship between GD and PB was a long and deep one. PB gave a lot, probably received a lot too, and then was the resulting hip-pocket CoR in Bermuda, for AC36 - clearly as a result. The Protocol that followed had Prada written all over it. Did GD 'self-deal' the position as Defender of the Trusteeship by 'selling' and gaining out of that? Did ETNZ/RNZYS financially benefit by Prada underwriting much of AC36? Was that an instance of self-dealing? Is GD now angling to profit off being the Defender, and again from a Challenger? Do any NY Trusteeship regulations proscribe limits? 

I will leave that to you guys who are smarter than me, in the legalese arena anyway. :)

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52 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Hell no, not assuming that you are stupid! I love your contributions here.

Again, the relationship between GD and PB was a long and deep one. PB gave a lot, probably received a lot too, and then was the resulting hip-pocket CoR in Bermuda, for AC36 - clearly as a result. The Protocol that followed had Prada written all over it. Did GD 'self-deal' the position as Defender of the Trusteeship by 'selling' and gaining out of that? Did ETNZ/RNZYS financially benefit by Prada underwriting much of AC36? Was that an instance of self-dealing? Is GD now angling to profit off being the Defender, and again from a Challenger? Do any NY Trusteeship regulations proscribe limits? 

I will leave that to you guys who are smarter than me, in the legalese arena anyway. :)

Got it. Thank you.

One of the things the NY Court of Appeals noted in the Mercury Bay case is that while the defender in the America's Cup is a "trustee" and thus has certain duties, by design the defender is also a competitor and is obligated to to try and win the contest. So there is no problem with a defender showing up to the line with a catamaran, which may seem unfair.  In other words, things that may seem unfair or might be breaches of a duty under traditional trust rules are in this unique context okay if they are a legitimate effort to win this contest.

One of the things the US does well is create multiple people with sufficient wealth to engage in this ridiculously expensive sport. The Kiwis, while second to none when it comes to sailing, don't have the financial resources of other nations.  That's no knock on them -- they are a small country. But you need both -- money and great sailors -- to win this thing. 

As a defender or a challenger, the Kiwis have as much of an obligation or as much of a right to try and win the cup as anyone else.  If they end up forming partnerships where they benefit financially and in a manner that allows them to contest the cup, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. They are competitors and they are doing what they have to do to compete, so long as it meets the requirements of the Deed.

What's all of this mean for your musing? Was the challenge by LRPP and it's club valid under the Deed? It was. They were a legitimate and worthy competitor, as the contest confirmed. As the selected competitor, the mutual consent clause gave LRPP/club the right to have a say in what happened, so long as ETNZ/RYS agreed, which they did.  I can tell you that the NYSC wouldn't care or dig into where ETNZ got its money so long as all that stuff was valid, and it was. 

This isn't a typical trust; it's a massive, expensive, and highly competitive sporting event wrapped in a veneer of a trust. You can throw an elbow here and there. 

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So, if I understand correctly, two possible angles of attack, the legimity of the CoR, and self dealing by the defender. But if it was the last option, why would they go in person the deliver their challenge to the defender ?

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not sure if mentioned here yet, but the latest season of Shirley Robertson podcast kicks off with a 2part Terry Hutchinson

https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820/8490165-season-3-ep1-terry-hutchinson-part1?client_source=small_player&iframe=true&referrer=https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820.js?player=small

Part 2 is all about AC36 from the AM perspective

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48 minutes ago, shebeen said:

not sure if mentioned here yet, but the latest season of Shirley Robertson podcast kicks off with a 2part Terry Hutchinson

https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820/8490165-season-3-ep1-terry-hutchinson-part1?client_source=small_player&iframe=true&referrer=https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820.js?player=small

Part 2 is all about AC36 from the AM perspective

Sweet, thats my saturday boat work pod sorted then :lol: (Sundays are of course reserved for bar karate).

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

Sweet, thats my saturday boat work pod sorted then :lol: (Sundays are of course reserved for bar karate).

did not know this one, and looking at their front page i think the algorithms are broken because this is right up my street!

https://barkarate.com/

 

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On 5/9/2021 at 11:26 PM, Rennmaus said:

Good luck with the NYSC/AG. 

She's enjoying herself too much chasing the NRA and trumpscum's dodgy business deals :D

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57 minutes ago, Indio said:

She's enjoying herself too much chasing the NRA and trumpscum's dodgy business deals :D

Which is certainly more important than a sailboat race, indeed. 

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On 5/13/2021 at 9:20 AM, shebeen said:

not sure if mentioned here yet, but the latest season of Shirley Robertson podcast kicks off with a 2part Terry Hutchinson

https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820/8490165-season-3-ep1-terry-hutchinson-part1?client_source=small_player&iframe=true&referrer=https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820.js?player=small

Part 2 is all about AC36 from the AM perspective

finished part2 now, while it is now about 2 months old - it's quite an insight into TH and the working of AM team.

YES, they talk about the capsize in detail.  Without saying it, TH pretty much says it was bad luck and not the wrong call.

He is fully behind Dean Barker being the right guy to helm, publicly at least.

Also seems to be satisfied with their tactical set-up (ie. him grinding and doing a lot of the pre-start tactical set-up). 

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Listening to the podcast I didn't hear TH own many bad decisions.  "If you have a criticism, then you just don't have the facts" was his POV. This is the SOP for guys who are trained to convince "owners" to spend.  

Most revealing were TH's comments on how surprised he was after the Christmas regatta that TNZ were constantly developing new modes of sailing.  For ever and ever in sailing - the magic of being great in any boat is understanding it so well you can develop modes and shift gears faster than the competition.  TNZ's afterguard have foiling resumes that dwarf the AM sailing team.  Dalton knew what he was doing when handed the boat to GA,PB and BT.  They used this superior experience to "surprise" the fleet in Bermuda with new modes on the AC50.  

Why, 4 years after Bermuda, was TH surprised that a team with way more foiling experience and skills were developing new better sailing modes faster than AM?  Could it be that acknolwledging this simple fact would require that changing the afterguard?

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1 hour ago, cbulger said:

Listening to the podcast I didn't hear TH own many bad decisions.  "If you have a criticism, then you just don't have the facts" was his POV. This is the SOP for guys who are trained to convince "owners" to spend.  

Most revealing were TH's comments on how surprised he was after the Christmas regatta that TNZ were constantly developing new modes of sailing.  For ever and ever in sailing - the magic of being great in any boat is understanding it so well you can develop modes and shift gears faster than the competition.  TNZ's afterguard have foiling resumes that dwarf the AM sailing team.  Dalton knew what he was doing when handed the boat to GA,PB and BT.  They used this superior experience to "surprise" the fleet in Bermuda with new modes on the AC50.  

Why, 4 years after Bermuda, was TH surprised that a team with way more foiling experience and skills were developing new better sailing modes faster than AM?  Could it be that acknolwledging this simple fact would require that changing the afterguard?

Surprised TNZ was developing new modes of sailing? If there was no Herbie, that's how OTAUS won in 2013. 

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On 5/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Rennmaus said:

I remember that the "Royal" is a name of hono(u)r given by the King or Queen and signaling official recognition = patent/license. I may be wrong tho. 

This is the modern process https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/media/guidance_applications_for_the_title_royal.pdf

 

The protected Royal titles are sparingly granted and strict standards are applied. As a matter dealt with under the Royal Prerogative, information about any criteria which may exist and the reasons for the grant or refusal of an application are not disclosed. The grant of the titles is not, and never has been, a right which can be claimed by a body fulfilling certain conditions

"Royal Prerogative" may confuse the unwary. It does not mean the Monarch is involved, it means it is in the gift of the executive branch of the UK government, without reference to Parliament.

 

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On 5/11/2021 at 8:02 PM, porthos said:

I know RYS has challenged for the cup many times under the Deed, and as far as I know nobody then questioned whether RYS was a recognized yacht club. So I assume RYS is recognized at least as much as the Deed requires. The name "Royal" may denote that recognition, but I certainly can't confirm that. 

What I do know is that "incorporation" has a specific legal meaning that I assume means the same thing in the UK that it means where I practice, which is to say the government has recognized the entity as a specific corporate form and there are certain filing requirements associated with it. 

There are plenty of coastal UK clubs that aren't "Royal" but fulfil the criteria to challenge. Unlikely to happen though. The only clubs to challenge in recent history have been the Royal Thames and RYS.

Your 2nd paragraph on incorporation also describes the situation in the UK.

The officers and members of an unincorporated club are potentially liable for its debts. Hence spinning off a "company limited by guarantee" is a bit of a no-brainer if you wish to play in the litigious world of the AC. That is roughly the equivalent of a "not for profit" organisation elsewhere. 

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RYS and Royal Thames are both NYYC full reciprocals, as well as regular competitors in the NYYC Invitational Cup and similar international regattas. The New Yorkers are well-acquainted with both clubs, and entirely aware of the RYS Ltd. situation.

On 5/13/2021 at 3:20 AM, shebeen said:

the latest season of Shirley Robertson podcast kicks off with a 2part Terry Hutchinson

The Scottish bimbo and the American bozo. Yep, listening to their drivel would be time well spent. :rolleyes:

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On 5/12/2021 at 12:05 AM, porthos said:

Yeah, but I will say it's a bit like Schrodinger's Club -- it's two clubs and one club at the same time. They are legally separate. RYS remains an unincorporated association and RYS Ltd. is very much incorporated. I'm quite certain the members would like a court to get distracted by the "Ltd." should any liability arise.

At the same time, the members of both clubs are identical -- if you are a member of one,  you are a member of another. If you no longer are a member of RYS, you cannot be a member of RYS Ltd. RYS Ltd. holds its regatta using RYS's facilities, and the members sailing in the regatta are simultaneously members of RYS and RYS Ltd.

A "Limited" designation in many Commonwealth jurisdictions simply insulates the business owners, shareholders from the debts of the Limited entity/company (owners/shareholders may be liable under other legislation for reckless trading, etc).

Many sports clubs in NZ are Incorporated Societies which provide tax and other compliance reporting advantages not available to Limited companies. The downside is the members of an Incorporated society do not benefit from the disposal of their assets if they choose to close shop.

Many golf clubs trade through Limited entities in the same name of the Clubs, which is a simple instrument for the members to safeguard their assets by leaving them in the Incorporated society entity who then takes the entire shareholding in the trading Limited liability entity.

I suspect a similar rationale is at play with RYS...

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On 5/13/2021 at 8:20 AM, shebeen said:

not sure if mentioned here yet, but the latest season of Shirley Robertson podcast kicks off with a 2part Terry Hutchinson

https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820/8490165-season-3-ep1-terry-hutchinson-part1?client_source=small_player&iframe=true&referrer=https://www.buzzsprout.com/364820.js?player=small

Part 2 is all about AC36 from the AM perspective

I thought this was a good listen. I must say I found part 1 a little bit better, as the AC stuff was kind of an odd timing: too late in that pretty much all that was said had been said before, but also too early in that I don't think TH yet had the perspective that 6 months or so would give. He still came across as being in 'battle mentality'. 

He was still quite defensive about their on board set up. It might even by myself who he calls out as critic who haven't' been on the boats so can't know. But... all four teams had different set ups, so clearly there is disagreement with how to resource to the task aboard and I think he's a little dismissive of Shirley's question about it. 

Then he says how grinding wasn't too much of a distraction as most the strategy is done before the race and goody and dean can tackle the on the fly aspects. But if that's true, then it just raises the question even further, why have a 50+ on a pedestal if the large part of his input is pre race? 

Shirley get's good interviews because she's on good terms with so many top sailors and well respected. So you do get sailors opening up a little more to her. But on this point, I think she could have pressed a little more. But, maybe it was just too soon? I think I would have liked to ask TH about the Vasco Vascotto and Max Sirena role's and compare what they were able to provide to LR from off the boat (both younger than TH). 

The grinders who did get involved with elements or strategy / tactics on other teams had very specific area they were to keep watch over during the race, like Maloney and Junior (who relayed relative to the other boat, when the opponent was off their quarter and same for Gilo who looked aft on LR. And... these are all huge chaps who will be putting out wattage close to the specialist grinders. 

I do wonder, if TH had known if Magic was going to be a multi-cycle challenge, he might have gone for more youth, and stepped aside to blood a new generation. But perhaps with funding only agreed for one cup it was a little to easy to make decision to stick himself and dean on the boat. 

Anyway, just my 2 cents. But I am just a hater who has never sailed an AC75. 

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26 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I thought this was a good listen. I must say I found part 1 a little bit better, as the AC stuff was kind of an odd timing: too late in that pretty much all that was said had been said before, but also too early in that I don't think TH yet had the perspective that 6 months or so would give. He still came across as being in 'battle mentality'. 

He was still quite defensive about their on board set up. It might even by myself who he calls out as critic who haven't' been on the boats so can't know. But... all four teams had different set ups, so clearly there is disagreement with how to resource to the task aboard and I think he's a little dismissive of Shirley's question about it. 

Then he says how grinding wasn't too much of a distraction as most the strategy is done before the race and goody and dean can tackle the on the fly aspects. But if that's true, then it just raises the question even further, why have a 50+ on a pedestal if the large part of his input is pre race? 

Shirley get's good interviews because she's on good terms with so many top sailors and well respected. So you do get sailors opening up a little more to her. But on this point, I think she could have pressed a little more. But, maybe it was just too soon? I think I would have liked to ask TH about the Vasco Vascotto and Max Sirena role's and compare what they were able to provide to LR from off the boat (both younger than TH). 

The grinders who did get involved with elements or strategy / tactics on other teams had very specific area they were to keep watch over during the race, like Maloney and Junior (who relayed relative to the other boat, when the opponent was off their quarter and same for Gilo who looked aft on LR. And... these are all huge chaps who will be putting out wattage close to the specialist grinders. 

I do wonder, if TH had known if Magic was going to be a multi-cycle challenge, he might have gone for more youth, and stepped aside to blood a new generation. But perhaps with funding only agreed for one cup it was a little to easy to make decision to stick himself and dean on the boat. 

Anyway, just my 2 cents. But I am just a hater who has never sailed an AC75. 

I think you've summed it up well. I think the only reason why this podcast came out now was just fatigue from Shirley's side and waiting to launch a new "season".

i don't think we'll see teams in the next cycle having a TH type grinder, and I would be very surprised if they stick with it. if he is going to stay on the boat then he'll need to be actual afterguard. Dalts doesn't jump on anymore and then it was easier to hide in SF on the AC75.

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29 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

if they had half a brain they would have signed him up already for the next cycle. if this nationality rule comes in he is EASILY the best guy to drive their boat.

I wonder if anyone ever did say to him, "Goodie, sorry but we should have listened to you."

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6 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

If this new Nationality Rule comes into effect Goodison may very well sign up with the Brits. He lives in Italy. Much easier to sign up with a British Challenger than go across the pond again.

The NYYC may have already pissed off Barker & Goodison with their frivolous & premature AC37 Challenge & Protocol.

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On 5/13/2021 at 5:20 PM, shebeen said:

Part 2 is all about AC36 from the AM perspective

TH was surprised how much the other teams - especially ETNZ - used their simulators to drive the design process. Seems they were a little caught out in this respect. 

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On 5/11/2021 at 7:58 AM, porthos said:

Jim's rank and station

The UK honours system is incredibly broken.

If someone receives a low-level award such as the Queen’s Commendation for Bravery, the Gazette will publish a lengthy citation specifying exactly what they did to earn it: see example. But knighthoods require only terse, meaningless citations that communicate nothing.

in Jim’s case, he was created a Knight Bachelor for “Services to Business and to Investment”i.e., feathering his own nest.

 

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On 5/19/2021 at 11:01 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

If this new Nationality Rule comes into effect Goodison may very well sign up with the Brits. He lives in Italy. Much easier to sign up with a British Challenger than go across the pond again.

The NYYC may have already pissed off Barker & Goodison with their frivolous & premature AC37 Challenge & Protocol.

While Barker is probably off the boat, one would assume that Goodison would take one of the duel helmsman roles for American Magic.  Goodison can only sail for Ineos or American Magic so he doesn't have many options

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On 5/21/2021 at 4:28 AM, Horn Rock said:

TH was surprised how much the other teams - especially ETNZ - used their simulators to drive the design process. Seems they were a little caught out in this respect. 

Remember when American Magic capsized?  When the production team was working non-stop rebuilding the boat, the sailing team sailed little dinghies around the RNZYS and shopping at Barkers for a team building activities instead of getting in the simulator and practicing their starts.  Either their egos were too large or they had no simulator   

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1 minute ago, Chobani Sailor said:

While Barker is probably off the boat, one would assume that Goodison would take one of the duel helmsman roles for American Magic.  Goodison can only sail for Ineos or American Magic so he doesn't have many options

He can sail for UK, possibly USA(not sure how long he resided in US but quite possible he was there for long enough) .......and maybe Italy???? more choices than most.

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37 minutes ago, IPLore said:

He can sail for UK, possibly USA(not sure how long he resided in US but quite possible he was there for long enough) .......and maybe Italy???? more choices than most.

He can sail for American Magic as he was a part of the American Magic team in Auckland. Thats specifically provisioned for in the new rules as they've revealed so far. Italy or another USA team would require him to have had the passport at the end of the Auckland match too.

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6 hours ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Either their egos were too large or they had no simulator   

Or their simulator wasn't very good? Sounds like in their debrief they identified that as one of their weaknesses. 

With regard to simulators, I get the impression ETNZ still have an edge in this area - incorporating AI etc.....It is something that will require continual development. At a guess, the Ineos simulator was still a bit behind LR/ENTZ - simply because they were less sorted overall - boat/foils.....That said, they have the backing to ramp that up, and I'm sure it's an area that they will resource.

 New teams entering the cup will likely be at a disadvantage, lacking the simulator IP that top teams have today. Does Alinghi have sim tech? I think Artemis does?

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I think Artemis does?

Artemis built / owns the SailGP simulator, and has been involved in high tech design since the cup, they'd be a prime candidate to approach to bootstrap your own.

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2 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Artemis built / owns the SailGP simulator, and has been involved in high tech design since the cup, they'd be a prime candidate to approach to bootstrap your own.

A key part of the development for a simulator is to verify it's accuracy with feed back from the boats while sailing, I think ETNZ had two people in the chase boats at all times just collecting data for the simulator.

Artemis probably has good data for the GP50's but that would be worthless when simulating an AC75.

In addition ETNZ had a highly developed AI system that could sail the simulator better than the sailors so that speed up development a lot.

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49 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

A key part of the development for a simulator is to verify it's accuracy with feed back from the boats while sailing, I think ETNZ had two people in the chase boats at all times just collecting data for the simulator.

Artemis probably has good data for the GP50's but that would be worthless when simulating an AC75.

Another key part is having the tooling and talent in place to build a model in the first place, when I said "bootstrap" I mean they would be a good place to start, they already have proven experienced and know what they're doing. It wouldn't be off the shelf I agree with you there.

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