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35 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Different sterns. If one got it right the other got it wrong

 

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I wouldn't say 'wrong', TC. I'd say 'optimised'. Although one is and one isn't, as you say. 

If these were designed as displacement boats for example, that might explain long, flat, wide sections, with little or no apparent deadrise. On the other hand, lots of rocker deadrise and slackness in the quarters might suggest a 'non-sticky' approach - for a hull which hopefully spend 99 -100% of its effort in the air.

Interesting times ahead.

 

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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14 minutes ago, RImike said:

While ETNZ is getting towed around, American Magic already has their sails up and is sailing. Haven't seen them get up on the foils as there isn't to much wind right now. Currently they are off the war college right now....

 

Pics please!

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37 minutes ago, RImike said:

While ETNZ is getting towed around, American Magic already has their sails up and is sailing. Haven't seen them get up on the foils as there isn't to much wind right now. Currently they are off the war college right now....

 

Pics or it didn’t happen. 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

I'd say 'optimised'. Although one is and one isn't, as you say.

Not Optimised vs non-Optimised.

Optimised for different parts of the acceleration process -> different assumptions of which will be the most limiting factors.

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19 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Is it me, or does that head sail look massive?!

Proportionally fairly big relative to the main.

R0jBggw.png

 

But the rig is pretty small relative to the hull, I didn't really realise quite how small before.

Hull: 20.7m

Rig: 27.5m from waterline (& ignoring the 5deg rake because trigonometry) or 26m (from deck)

 

Compare with IMOCA:

Hull: 18.288m

Rig: 29m (from waterline)

 

Or Volvo 70:

Hull: 21.5m

Rig: 31.5m (from deck)

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Is it me, or does that head sail look massive?!

Allows a shorter rig = less drag at high speed in conditions where you can reduce sail area. 

I am assuming there should be a few different sizes available right?

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2 hours ago, RImike said:

While ETNZ is getting towed around, American Magic already has their sails up and is sailing. Haven't seen them get up on the foils as there isn't to much wind right now. Currently they are off the war college right now....

 

ETNZ has a main up

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1 hour ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Great to see the cup at the top of the sail on an AC75.....

I am so pleased we have a proper design challenge in this Americas Cup!

We may not have many challenges this cup, but they're all quality bar one. Honestly don't know which one of the big 3 will make it to the AC. 

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Different sterns. If one got it right the other got it wrong

 

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Ya, in your black and white world you must be right tc. What if, there is a convergent design process going on?  Or both are wrong?

What passes for logic from you just amazes me. 

Idiot.

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1 minute ago, NeedAClew said:

Do you think they photoshopped the foil or is that it?

That hull join certainly looks shopped, not sure why they would bother though, they are lifting without skirts so not much point.

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This was a bit far away, but fully foiling. Chase boats were hard pressed to keep up. Very impressive. They then rolled into a foiling tack (as I was cleaning the phone camera lens, unfortunately), with both foils in the water. 

AmMag Foil.jpg

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3 minutes ago, See Level said:

Maybe they towed up and released.

This was my thought to, makes a lot of sense for testing in marginal conditions, the boat will certainly foil in several knots less than it will take off in.

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When they 1st started doing runs, maybe around 1230, they used a tow boat to get on the foil. As the breeze filled in, 1430-1700, (S, SE 12kts) they were, from my vantage point, able to get the boat foiling w/o the need of the tender. I also witnessed a fully foiling jibe, but wasn't able to grab any pics. 

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1 hour ago, Pesky's Pole said:

Best part of today is  that the all in the  Newport Mafia were able to see them ripping around the bay today and no one is putting video up. Keeping it tight. 

Admirable maybe but presumably misplaced conservatism as the spys are seeing everything. It's only the armchair designers that miss out..

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54 minutes ago, Boybland said:

That hull join certainly looks shopped, not sure why they would bother though, they are lifting without skirts so not much point.

That image (and any other from a digital camera) has been reprocessed so many times before it hit this page that it's impossible to tell if there were deliberate alterations or not. Modern cameras do a lot of processing internally to clean up and "improve" the look of an image, Instagram probably reprocessed it for posting, plus it's a screen capture so more processing. Fine detail is often lost completely, no amount of zooming or post processing will return it. Similarly artefacts can be introduced that don't exist in RL.

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5 minutes ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

Which part? having seen the boat firsthand several weeks ago the photo looks very very accurate...

Ok. But to my uncertain vision the foil showing looks different, flatter among other things, than the foil bit shown in the hoist photo in #1955 or #1901.  

 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Possibly TC. They've done a pretty good job on the back ground if that's the case. Don't really see why they'd seek to hide their foils at this early stage though.

My first thought is that is was PS and that they had cut and paste the Mule's foil. But I now think that the mule's foil was also PS. They did a pretty good job.

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23 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

My first thought is that is was PS and that they had cut and paste the Mule's foil. But I now think that the mule's foil was also PS. They did a pretty good job.

It's all Photoshop tc. Put on the tin foil hat, you'll feel better.

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43 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Ok. But to my uncertain vision the foil showing looks different, flatter among other things, than the foil bit shown in the hoist photo in #1955 or #1901.  

 

Hard to tell. The wing further away looks like a flat leading edge, much more than the nearest wing. But they must be symmetrical by the rule....

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29 minutes ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

This is a picture I took of the mule launching august 8th. Looks like pretty similar foil configuration on the port side to what was pictured in the Instagram post, albeit lower aspect ratio. If they were sticking with it until the very end of the mule's lifetime, it would make sense that they were confident enough to make a full size one.

IMG_3582.jpg

Excellent photo, thanks. But could they have inverted the foils on the AC75 ?

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10 minutes ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

This is a picture I took of the mule launching august 8th. Looks like pretty similar foil configuration on the port side to what was pictured in the Instagram post, albeit lower aspect ratio. If they were sticking with it until the very end of the mule's lifetime, it would make sense that they were confident enough to make a full size one.

IMG_3582.jpg

The foil on the left of the image looks like a hybrid between a large bird (an eagle maybe) and something like the B-52 bomber. 

 

Not relevant to any of the discussion, just the random musings on seeing the photo

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27 minutes ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

This is a picture I took of the mule launching august 8th. Looks like pretty similar foil configuration on the port side to what was pictured in the Instagram post, albeit lower aspect ratio. If they were sticking with it until the very end of the mule's lifetime, it would make sense that they were confident enough to make a full size one.

IMG_3582.jpg

Nice pic.what about the starboard foil? Wtf, over?

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36 minutes ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

This is a picture I took of the mule launching august 8th. Looks like pretty similar foil configuration on the port side to what was pictured in the Instagram post, albeit lower aspect ratio. If they were sticking with it until the very end of the mule's lifetime, it would make sense that they were confident enough to make a full size one.

IMG_3582.jpg

It's a B 52 Stratofortress. Heavy armoury! ;-)

Unknown.jpeg

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2 hours ago, See Level said:

So where's the tow boat and wake in the photo, if it's photoshopped out it's a good job.

Maybe they towed up and released.

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I can understand PS the foils but not the whole boat sailing. Doesn't make sense to PS some bullshit. They are sailing here no probs. Boat looks awesome. Minimalistic. The photo is cropped so you don't see the flying foil and off course you can't see the foil in the water. 

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Wait, so no huge disadvantage? lol

You seriously need to take some math classes or other classes in logic!

This is where AM would have been 4+months ago.  Of course their has been a big disadvantage, but that doesn’t mean they will not do their best within the limitations. 

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23 minutes ago, mezaire said:

May have been discussed before, but when was the last non North sail supplier in the cup?

Very interesting to go with Quantum on a US boat when I see North as the 'all American' company 

Has been mentioned before, but no discussion needed. The syndicate head owns the all american Quantum comp.

Do waist a bit of time reading up, like we all do here...

 

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1 hour ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

If they were sticking with it until the very end of the mule's lifetime, it would make sense that they were confident enough to make a full size one.

IMG_3582.jpg

There is a better then even chance this simple foil is considered their “datum” for comparison.  Keep a simple one on one side then experiment in the other is very good scientific method.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

That, credit to buckdouger:

 

image.png.3feca9d3ec9200580d322b57c58e684c.png

The yellow lines can't be accurate as the foil must be symmetric either side of the arm.

13.6 A foil wing must be symmetric about the foil wing symmetry plane, as defined in Figure 13.1…

So either more claims of tampering or it's just typical distortion from cameras that are designed to produce pretty, not accurate, pictures.

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1 hour ago, mezaire said:

May have been discussed before, but when was the last non North sail supplier in the cup?

Very interesting to go with Quantum on a US boat when I see North as the 'all American' company 

Norths is owned by a UK company so not very american now. 

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2 hours ago, mezaire said:

May have been discussed before, but when was the last non North sail supplier in the cup?

Very interesting to go with Quantum on a US boat when I see North as the 'all American' company 

De Vos is the majority owner of Quantum Sails.

The sails they are using are Doyle Stratis membranes made in NZ and then badged as Quantum....

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2 hours ago, Herfy said:

You seriously need to take some math classes or other classes in logic!

This is where AM would have been 4+months ago.  Of course their has been a big disadvantage, but that doesn’t mean they will not do their best within the limitations. 

lol okay then. More design time is a disadvantage. First time for everything

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.

1 hour ago, Gappy said:

Norths is owned by a UK company so not very american now. 

Excuse me Pommy, just because the majority shareholder is a UK based private equity firm, that does not make it UK company. North Sails are still very much an american company. 

 

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15 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The shot of the boat sailing had had the starboard foil shopped. 

Certainly the crane pic showing the flat foil is on port, so something is up

you can use tools to estimate if an image was photoshopped. In this case, I don't see any indication that it was shopped. The foil area would probably be more noisy in the ELA view.

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=2d733c076e207c55c4ce2f7ec7d7014535886687.80393&show=ela

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

The shot of the boat sailing had had the starboard foil shopped. 

Certainly the crane pic showing the flat foil is on port, so something is up

If you are referring to the crane lift photo as per #2004 - I believe that is the Mule you are looking at - not the Big Mutha - so not a point of comparison.

What I find interesting in the AM offical photo directly above is how little ease the leeward (slack) runner has as deteremined by the Ferrul/Block/Rigging connector - despite the fact that the mast is rotated away from it. 

Also, cannot help but wonder how much suction all that flat underside will create on lift off, compared to ETNZ at lift off, where finer and narrower waterlines would release more readily. I know this is against a larger and more easily driven Planing surface - but lift off requires release..... 

And those hinge blisters look draggy and sticky for those real light air races where lift off will enable the sort of lead that ETNZ built in that fateful light air race in SF in the AC72 cats where they ran out of time agonisingly close to the finish - but having achieved lift off had done a horizon job on Oracle. So anything that will lower lift off windspeed/boatspeed combinations could be critical and race winning. Earlier take off has