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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

Is the venom inherited or home brewed.

hard to tell... but I think home-brewed... quite short fermentation cycle too... I think within the first day or so when the first questions of the day being asked included such clangers as "you say stay within your suburb, but I live in Wellington, where I can jog between to suburbs, so is that OK?" etc etc...

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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Good to see that rh still talks a lot and still makes no sense to anyone.

As for Asbestos Island, looks lovely. Perfect place to quarantine Luna Rossa.

And, another great example of an expensive project that no one ever showed up to. Will the NZ military use the empty waterfront and superyacht docks for target practice too?

#bringbackthetanks

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11 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Good to see that rh still talks a lot and still makes no sense to anyone.

As for Asbestos Island, looks lovely. Perfect place to quarantine Luna Rossa.

And, another great example of an expensive project that no one ever showed up to. Will the NZ military use the empty waterfront and superyacht docks for target practice too?

#bringbackthetanks

Ah no....wrong again...:lol:

We can thank the US military for that. Their usual policy of leaving their shit in someone else’s back yard...but don’t let history get in the way of a good troll 

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Once again another unappreciated and uncalled for bash on the US for saving your sorry ass country during WWII. Where were the New Zealand aircraft carriers, submarines and battleships during the war. That’s right you didn’t have any. Some great kiwis fought in the war but remember who took the brunt of the casualties and spent XX times any other country during the war. So if we left some infrastructure that we spent our tax payer money on to help defend your country your sorry asses can spend 1/10 of the cost to remove it if you did not want it. Has been almost 80 years for you to clean it up. Guess you are still saving up to get the job done. Next time maybe we should let what ever aggressive country take you over. Maybe they will clean up with the new government they install. 

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3 minutes ago, maxman said:

Once again another unappreciated and uncalled for bash on the US for saving your sorry ass country during WWII.

Saving our sorry ass country? We didn't need saving, we could have happily sat down here and kept out heads down. As it stands, NZ went to fight in Europe two years before the US declared war against Japan and the Axis powers. We declared war with Japan the same time you did. I lost a grandfather and two great uncles fighting alongside the US in the Pacific war so I don't feel like we didn't do our bit.

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I said that many kiwis fought and sacrificed their lives fighting in the war. I was responding to the comment about the US not demolishing and removing war infrastructure. New Zealand was fortunate the war did not touch their shores. 

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36 minutes ago, maxman said:

Once again another unappreciated and uncalled for bash on the US for saving your sorry ass country during WWII. Where were the New Zealand aircraft carriers, submarines and battleships during the war. That’s right you didn’t have any. Some great kiwis fought in the war but remember who took the brunt of the casualties and spent XX times any other country during the war. So if we left some infrastructure that we spent our tax payer money on to help defend your country your sorry asses can spend 1/10 of the cost to remove it if you did not want it. Has been almost 80 years for you to clean it up. Guess you are still saving up to get the job done. Next time maybe we should let what ever aggressive country take you over. Maybe they will clean up with the new government they install. 

I was pointing out a fact. if you want to dress it into something else go ahead. And if casualties are what you are basing things on. Then the war must have been won by the USSR. I guess we should be thanking them... 

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51 minutes ago, maxman said:

remember who took the brunt of the casualties and spent XX times any other country during the war.

you should look at the history a little more closely

from memory the us casualties were only around 400k and were pretty much the only country to make a profit from it .. that profit is now enjoyed by such aspiring leaders as you now have

 

not that your efforts were not appreciated ,, they were and still are

albeit you did not join the coalition of the free and willing till you were bombed at pearl and were left with no choice

we were never bombed and only the odd raider caused any stir around here yet we were in from the start in 1939

trying to beat back the forces of evil that had they not attacked pearl when they did would have been more than capable of sweeping the usa when the rest of us were done .. and would have

 

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Crikey crew we are a touchy lot of late, must be that damned Communist manufactured virus that has raised the tempo.

Back to matters of the AC.

No visible signs of any NYYC base construction and activity as of today which by the way was absolutely glorious.

No progress at the Handbags as well.

Will Defiant which is due to arrive in 34 days just sit here in Auckland unusable until the base is built. 

TNZ pokes the Americans in the eye bringing on Huawei as a major sponsor.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/228752/Americas-Cup-Huawei-dial-up-Emirates-Team-NZ

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey crew we are a touchy lot of late, must be that damned Communist manufactured virus that has raised the tempo.

Back to matters of the AC.

No visible signs of any NYYC base construction and activity as of today which by the way was absolutely glorious.

No progress at the Handbags as well.

Will Defiant which is due to arrive in 34 days just sit here in Auckland unusable until the base is built. 

Sounds like they are going to get their tent town up and running first

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4 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Better get cracking if they need a whare within a month.

Yeah their equipment doesn’t leave till this week....So yeah I hope the have a big tarp to put over Defiant

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Children, please mind you manors and play nice.

some info from the Sailing Illustrated interview with Terry on Friday.

According to TH, Defiant and gear will be loaded onto the ship on Sunday/Monday and the boat will set sail on Tuesday to NZ. He jokingly said they are in a race with NZ to see whose boat will reach Auckland first.  Defiant is scheduled to arrive June 6 - 8th.  All of the NZ members of their team are either already in NZ or are currently on their way to NZ.  He mentioned that they will follow any restrictions that the NZ government puts on them.  He pointed out how the AC teams are highly motivated to be squeaky clean and would be easy to control.  They are in regular contact with the immigration officials.  

The insurance requirements meant that they had to leave Pensacola by the end of May (hurricane season) and they would not have been sailing in Newport until mid June (if at all with the virus restrictions).  So that made them decide to go directly to NZ during this pause in sailing.

He also said that they have been working split shifts, 24 hours a day on building B2.  It will be flown directly to NZ.  In addition to the team of engineers that are here in the states, Airbus has another 27 engineers back at their facilities that are assigned to designing American Magic.  As for the twin sail, he was very diplomatic, but he seemed to feel that there would not be much trickledown.  He said that it is more that twice the work to hoist, more than twice the cost and it was a very complex problem to achieve the correct shapes for performance.  He also said that the simulator design for this boat is much more complex than what was needed for the cats during the last AC.  He said the cats were more or less one design hulls and sails.  These boats have differing hulls, sails along with the foils.

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

Then the war must have been won by the USSR. I guess we should be thanking them... 

Absolutely the case.

Its well worth considering that from the start of Barbarossa the Soviets faced a minimum of 75% of Axis forces and it only got that low a couple of times in the immediate aftermath of massive Soviet victories because they wiped out large chunks of the Nazi armies.

Over 80% of Nazi casualties & equipment losses were on the Eastern Front.

 

There is also a strong argument that it was the rapidity with which the Soviets smashed the 700,000 strong Kwantung Army in Manchuria which actually scared the Japanese into surrender having not yet actually understood what happened to the nuked cities.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

.  He also said that the simulator design for this boat is much more complex than what was needed for the cats during the last AC.  He said the cats were more or less one design hulls and sails.  These boats have differing hulls, sails along with the foils.

Which one I wonder. The VR crew trainer or the physics sim.

I would reckon that due to the rather new and relatively open box around foil design that A Shit load of computer cycles was going into foil wing, flap, and arm fairing design physics sims, let alone the control systems..

I reckon everyone joneses after etnz's simulator set up(s) from last cycle. Spitty was saying as much in a recent interview.

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What JS s doing is revising history in his own favour as much as he can get away with, while admitting his insecurities and that he isn't even sure what his role at LR really is :o

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5 hours ago, hoom said:

Its well worth considering that from the start of Barbarossa the Soviets faced a minimum of 75% of Axis forces and it only got that low a couple of times in the immediate aftermath of massive Soviet victories because they wiped out large chunks of the Nazi armies.

if your going to look at actual effectiveness of the various efforts

you have to give credit where its due

and a lot goes to the allied bombing of german factories .

and most kudos for that goes to the yanks because the brits couldn't hit shit with night missions and shitty bomb sights

until way into the latter half and the pathfinders

the resources for the defence of the Reich were mainly thrown into the air war .. that eased the pressure on the russian army and air force

JU 87s took out a lot of tanks but the air defence requirement  kept them mass producing 109s and 190s instead

 

for interest

During the war, Rudel was credited with the destruction of 519 tanks, as well as one battleship, one cruiser, 70 landing craft and 150 artillery emplacements.[3] He claimed 51 aerial victories (earning flying ace status) and the destruction of more than 800 vehicles of all types.[3] He flew 2,530 ground-attack missions exclusively on the Eastern Front, usually flying the Junkers Ju 87 "Stuka" dive bomber.[3]

 

 

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

Which one I wonder. The VR crew trainer or the physics sim.

I would reckon that due to the rather new and relatively open box around foil design that A Shit load of computer cycles was going into foil wing, flap, and arm fairing design physics sims, let alone the control systems..

I reckon everyone joneses after etnz's simulator set up(s) from last cycle. Spitty was saying as much in a recent interview.

I assume he was talking about the physics sim because of the open box.  More moving variables with the AC75’s.

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11 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

As for the twin sail, he was very diplomatic, but he seemed to feel that there would not be much trickledown.  He said that it is more that twice the work to hoist, more than twice the cost and it was a very complex problem to achieve the correct shapes for performance.  He also said that the simulator design for this boat is much more complex than what was needed for the cats during the last AC.  He said the cats were more or less one design hulls and sails.  These boats have differing hulls, sails along with the foils.

This is exactly why GD's retiring vision of "sitting on my back deck and watching boats like this being raced out on the Hairwhacky by the fine youth of tomorrow" is completely ludicrous. As I've said from the very beginning, from a racing perspective the AC75 is a spectacularly stupid boat. It's a modernized version of a luddite-inspired steam-punk acid trip.

To be clear, I'm not saying foiling monos are stupid - I'm saying the AC75 version of a foiling mono is stupid. It will have no trickle-down whatsoever.

So, maybe GD will be happy seeing something like the very derivative AC9F lumbering around the paddock - feeling this whole thing was worth it. But as Moths and Waszps and foiling multis sail circles around the thing, taunting the 2 men and 2 women aboard frantically working the sheets of GD's fading legacy - it will be very short lived indeed.

Also, I don't think there is any question that the YAC is dead anyway. All we have now are a few races in Auckland to get this whole sordid and insane thing over with and behind us. Go DEFIANT!

So ship those abandoned AC9Fs to Auckland and let the next generation of KiWhingers start practicing...

propellerbeanie.jpg

They are going to need it.

 

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^Have to remember to put popcorn on my Instacart list next year for when the sordid and deranged (SD) Herbie conspiracies are spewed after Defiant 2.0 or whatever Amway B2 is to be is trounced. 

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There have been quite a few that have been quick to underestimate the capabilities of the American Magic team.  When you have 30+ very accomplished engineers working full time on the aero/hydrodynamics and control systems, that is a tremendous force.  NYYC is a very formidable foe.

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

When you have 30+ very accomplished engineers working full time on the aero/hydrodynamics and control systems, that is a tremendous force.  

Very presumptively positive  opinion you have there Alky concerning the collective power of accomplished engineers.

88388BD8-3F11-4C19-B07A-7EE0385A428D.thumb.jpeg.b6a428a05602fa85a7ad23bcffe93a8d.jpeg

 

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2 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Very presumptively positive  opinion you have there Alky concerning the collective power of accomplished engineers.

88388BD8-3F11-4C19-B07A-7EE0385A428D.thumb.jpeg.b6a428a05602fa85a7ad23bcffe93a8d.jpeg

 

The Edsel's only real problem was the toilet seat they  used for a center front grill.

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11 minutes ago, accnick said:

The Edsel's only real problem was the toilet seat they used for a center front grill.

E971425C-9631-4D07-A3DB-89CE9A7834B3.thumb.jpeg.826610511bcc40b7577f83ae7a041a47.jpeg

Edsel design chief Roy Brown intended the vertical grille feature to be much more slender than what resulted in production. Engineers enlarged his grille, insisting that the original design wouldn’t have delivered sufficient cooling air to the radiator. The resulting shape was commonly called the horse collar, an Oldsmobile sucking a lemon, and a toilet seat. Improvements were made for the second model year and the vertical grille was replaced with a horizontal motif for the third year, ironically resembling a 1959 Pontiac.

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

There have been quite a few that have been quick to underestimate the capabilities of the American Magic team.  When you have 30+ very accomplished engineers working full time on the aero/hydrodynamics and control systems, that is a tremendous force.  NYYC is a very formidable foe.

I think AM are fucking formidable - but attributing it to mere headcount is the kinda logic that had many championing Oracle's awesome IT chops - which proved to be a joke, either in simulation and out on the real water during racing.

Rest assured, the successful team will get there thanks to culture of innovative thinking, not via throwing the most bodies at the thinking.

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4 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Rest assured, the successful team will get there thanks to culture of innovative thinking, not via throwing the most bodies at the thinking.

Now, see? I agree with you!

Even though it's an incredibly self-evident truism that everyone on the planet already knows - and therefore offers no sage insight whatsoever. Heh.

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11 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Rest assured, the successful team will get there thanks to culture of innovative thinking, not via throwing the most bodies at the thinking.

Never has a truer word been spoken. 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Never has a truer word been spoken. 

There’s a fine line between ‘outside the box thinking’ and ‘rule cheating’ - and since ETNZ crafted this Rule’s language it’s a safe bet they will throw a curveball this time too, it was likely a hidden clause before they signed it off. 

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1 hour ago, rh3000 said:

I think AM are fucking formidable - but attributing it to mere headcount is the kinda logic that had many championing Oracle's awesome IT chops - which proved to be a joke, either in simulation and out on the real water during racing.

Rest assured, the successful team will get there thanks to culture of innovative thinking, not via throwing the most bodies at the thinking.

Oracle is a database software company.  They direct their efforts to getting data into and out of huge data warehouses, they are not an innovative program or interface designer.  Airbus has aeronautical engineers not sanitation engineers.  Obviously, quality can out perform quantity, but large quantities of quality is a tremendous assist.  You can bet that the other teams ad the same resources.  All of the teams are innovative.

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11 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Did anyone really hear ‘27’ Airbus engineers? I heard ‘Madrid’ but not the 27.

Spithill was very pleased with the unbeaten record in San Fran after they switched the flight system on.

image.png.e8dbf00518a5d7e5bc2bd143b53c21d1.png

Then we saw what happened the next time around when he had to use the twist grip on the wheel.

Fucking Karma.

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1 hour ago, astro said:

Spithill was very pleased with the unbeaten record in San Fran after they switched the flight system on.

image.png.e8dbf00518a5d7e5bc2bd143b53c21d1.png

Then we saw what happened the next time around when he had to use the twist grip on the wheel.

Fucking Karma.

Ya, better measurers, revealing camera angles...best was dalts chuckling about it.

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13 hours ago, phill_nz said:

you have to give credit where its due 

and a lot goes to the allied bombing of german factories . 

...

for interest

Somebody needs to get off the Halder & discover post-cold war scholarship :rolleyes:

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9 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

^Have to remember to put popcorn on my Instacart list next year for when the sordid and deranged (SD) Herbie conspiracies are spewed after Defiant 2.0 or whatever Amway B2 is to be is trounced. 

Red hot atomic fireballs for me.

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

There’s a fine line between ‘outside the box thinking’ and ‘rule cheating’ - and since ETNZ crafted this Rule’s language it’s a safe bet they will throw a curveball this time too, it was likely a hidden clause before they signed it off. 

The spoils of war, Stinger.

You win it ... you get your chance to fuck with the rules.

Who's gonna argue? No, wait... ;-)

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

There’s a fine line between ‘outside the box thinking’ and ‘rule cheating’ - and since ETNZ crafted this Rule’s language it’s a safe bet they will throw a curveball this time too, it was likely a hidden clause before they signed it off. 

And good management will know which side of that fine line to stay on. Bad management will cross that line and throw a few expendable employees under the bus when they get caught.

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Good lord these KiWhingersTM are so freakin' sanctimonious - and clueless.

The Emiratis are already cheating via the S&S charade. Everyone except these idiots can see it.

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9 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

There’s a fine line between ‘outside the box thinking’ and ‘rule cheating’ - and since ETNZ crafted this Rule’s language it’s a safe bet they will throw a curveball this time too, it was likely a hidden clause before they signed it off. 

Speculation... but so what?  To the victor go the spoils, and all that.

Besides, teams don't even have to sail their boats around the world to the match anymore!  How soft is that.... ?  :) 

Gotta be some advantages left for the defender - remember the match is about a challenger lifting the bar _beyond_ what the defender is able to repel. AC35 certainly saw that - in spades. 

So whatever advantage(s) ETNZ may or may not have been able to 'hide', obfuscate or delay within the spirit of the event, more power to them.  Of course there might also be inherent advantages achievable in the wording that ETNZ weren't cognizant of - and whomever finds and exploits those legally - fair play to them too.

Game on everyone. 'Hidden' clauses - or not.

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5 hours ago, Skipstone said:

Speculation... but so what?  To the victor go the spoils, and all that.

Besides, teams don't even have to sail their boats around the world to the match anymore!  How soft is that.... ?  :) 

Gotta be some advantages left for the defender - remember the match is about a challenger lifting the bar _beyond_ what the defender is able to repel. AC35 certainly saw that - in spades. 

So whatever advantage(s) ETNZ may or may not have been able to 'hide', obfuscate or delay within the spirit of the event, more power to them.  Of course there might also be inherent advantages achievable in the wording that ETNZ weren't cognizant of - and whomever finds and exploits those legally - fair play to them too.

Game on everyone. 'Hidden' clauses - or not.

Yep, agree with most of that but my remark was to point out that ‘rule cheating’ whether or not it gets past the MC based on some dictionary-language loophole that renders it legal, the AC35 leg-power and X Box Controllers being examples, did arguably run counter to what the ‘spirit and intent’ of the ‘manual power’ and ‘sailor-smarts’ that was intended by the Rule. Full-flying foiling in the AC34 cycle was a happy result of beating the Rule’s intent but other teams did manage to eventually come to grips with that one. 

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The America's cup has always been a competition of rules and loopholes, ever since the beginning when the challengers were required to sail across the ocean on their own keel and the defender was not.

I disagree with you about AC35 though, leg power is just as much manual power as arm power, it's just more efficient than arm power. Its not even unique to AC35... Totally within the spirit and definition of the rules... Whilst the xbox controller was just a hydraulic interface. The thing that stretched the rules was the moving dot on the bikes... but again such close feedback loops were not new, and its not like normal sailors don't use such systems... 

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16 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

The America's cup has always been a competition of rules and loopholes, ever since the beginning when the challengers were required to sail across the ocean on their own keel and the defender was not.

I disagree with you about AC35 though, leg power is just as much manual power as arm power, it's just more efficient than arm power. Its not even unique to AC35... Totally within the spirit and definition of the rules... Whilst the xbox controller was just a hydraulic interface. The thing that stretched the rules was the moving dot on the bikes... but again such close feedback loops were not new, and its not like normal sailors don't use such systems... 

The definition of "manual" in the AC 50 rule explicitly said that "manual" was not limited to input via the hands.

Interpretation 70 of that class rule explicitly permitted the "follow the dot" arrangement provided certain conditions were met.

Every team had the same opportunity to "exploit" the rules, then as now. Some are just better at it than others, and it isn't the same ones who are best at it every time.

Unless it is a closed class rule, someone, somewhere will find an edge within the boundaries of the rule. 

Don't take a knife to a gunfight.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

Don't take a knife to a gunfight.

And don't turn your back on a Kiwi...especially after they've just had their nails done.

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4 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep, agree with most of that but my remark was to point out that ‘rule cheating’ whether or not it gets past the MC based on some dictionary-language loophole that renders it legal, the AC35 leg-power and X Box Controllers being examples, did arguably run counter to what the ‘spirit and intent’ of the ‘manual power’ and ‘sailor-smarts’ that was intended by the Rule. Full-flying foiling in the AC34 cycle was a happy result of beating the Rule’s intent but other teams did manage to eventually come to grips with that one. 

On the other hand, you can say ETNZ in Bermuda were doing more “sailing” than anyone else. The helmsman was his own tactician and worried more about positioning and boat speed with input from his wing trimmer, where the others spent more time in twist grips flying the boat. The Kiwi crew distributed the sailing of the boat between the crew members which is more traditional than what the others were doing with the helmsman basically doing everything. When there was a Man overboard scenario like Outteridge in the final, it was game over. Would it have been the case with ETNZ? Possibly not.

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7 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep, agree with most of that but my remark was to point out that ‘rule cheating’ whether or not it gets past the MC based on some dictionary-language loophole that renders it legal, the AC35 leg-power and X Box Controllers being examples, did arguably run counter to what the ‘spirit and intent’ of the ‘manual power’ and ‘sailor-smarts’ that was intended by the Rule. Full-flying foiling in the AC34 cycle was a happy result of beating the Rule’s intent but other teams did manage to eventually come to grips with that one. 

So given that every team tried to exploit cyclors, but couldn't get it work, although OTUSA even took it the cup too - you would then be arguing that every team tried to run counter to the spirit, including those very people who drafted the Rule?

You realise the x-box controller refers to Gashby's sheet trimmer, not Tukes flight controller - those are different things... not sure which of those you think run counter to 'the spirit' - but I'm sure we'll hear in due course... :D

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49 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

So given that every team tried to exploit cyclors, but couldn't get it work, although OTUSA even took it the cup too - you would then be arguing that every team tried to run counter to the spirit, including those very people who drafted the Rule?

You realise the x-box controller refers to Gashby's sheet trimmer, not Tukes flight controller - those are different things... not sure which of those you think run counter to 'the spirit' - but I'm sure we'll hear in due course... :D

What a troll you make, you know very well what SR is telling.

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28 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What a troll you make, you know very well what SR is telling.

Well, I for one don't.  So I'd be interested to know how these 'developments' run counter to spirit and intent.  Spirit is an emotive derivative of the deed, and while a line should probably be drawn somewhere, ultimately it comes down the interpretation of actions against some measure of fair play - which is rarely extended as a simple matter of course in the AC anyway.  Roll on jurisdictional review by committee or wherever that ultimately leads. 

Intent however has been seized upon by every contender to ever set sight on the prize for the loopholes that may lie within the drafting of the protocol for an event.  And not a single team has ever concerned itself with falling the wrong side of intent if it allowed the development of an edge found legal by whatever process or committee that might require.

As it's said, to the victor go the spoils... but on the phlip-side, such developments can become bigger causes of headaches that they're worth.  Case in point the bowsprit on Team New Zealand's 1992 entry which went on to overshadow that TNZ campaign and led to its ultimate demise.

To make matters worse, the campaign unraveled in a bitter and protracted war of attrition in the protest room over the use of a bowsprit on New Zealand's NZL-20 - an obscure cassis belli typical of the fine-print arguments that thrive in a Cup community heavily populated by lawyers.

"In the past it has been full of mystique and dirty tricks, of political manoeuvring and espionage. But peel away the cloak and dagger stuff and it is another yacht race."

Source: https://blakenz.org/posts/2016/8/21/1992-1995-nzl-32-americas-cup-challenge

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The AC is first and foremost a design race. It always has been. So by that very nature all teams through the cup’s history try and exploit loop holes in the rules. That IS the America's Cup. If people have a problem with that they should probably stick to One Design classes...:mellow:

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57 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

Well, I for one don't.  So I'd be interested to know how these 'developments' run counter to spirit and intent.  Spirit is an emotive derivative of the deed, and while a line should probably be drawn somewhere, ultimately it comes down the interpretation of actions against some measure of fair play - which is rarely extended as a simple matter of course in the AC anyway.  Roll on jurisdictional review by committee or wherever that ultimately leads. 

Intent however has been seized upon by every contender to ever set sight on the prize for the loopholes that may lie within the drafting of the protocol for an event.  And not a single team has ever concerned itself with falling the wrong side of intent if it allowed the development of an edge found legal by whatever process or committee that might require.

 

"intent" is the thin end of the wedge that has been cited again and again over the years. It is the key to Pandora's box, the most over-used term imaginable, and has led generations of designers  down dead-end paths. It has probably created more trouble than any other single word when it comes to the application of the rules. 

Here is what the current class rule has to say about "intent":

"32.5 Interpretations shall be based on the following principles:

(a) interpretations shall consider only the words in this AC Class Rule, not their possible intent;"

If you don't like the way a rule is interpreted, blame the people who write the rules, not those charged with interpreting them.

Having said that, the words are not always perfectly clear, or there would be no need to interpret them.

And so it goes...

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"Intent" is usually the argument of last resort when someone knows they don't have a winning position and need a hail mary.  In the lead up to Bermuda ETNZ sought an interpretation and received a clear response.  The interpretation was public and available to all teams in advance of the LVC, but for whatever reason no other team felt it worth exploring.  The cyclors were considered by several other major teams (including the defender) but discounted due to the perceived complexity/trade-offs, not because it fell outside the intent of the rule.  Slingsby's uni-cycle, however, fell well outside the bounds of good design sense :D

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11 minutes ago, BSPN said:

Slingsby's uni-cycle, however, fell well outside the bounds of good design sense :D

Maybe that's what GA meant in the recent interview when he said if they tried them and lost they would look ridiculous.

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17 minutes ago, BSPN said:

The cyclors were considered by several other major teams (including the defender) but discounted due to the perceived complexity/trade-offs, not because it fell outside the intent of the rule.  

I think simplistically that the ETNZ solution was a design built around the system the cyclors powered...That embodied so many changes to the way others designed, built and operated their vessels that it simply wasn't possible to achieve ETNZ's advantages by the time the others came to appreciate half of what those might have been...

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1 hour ago, Skipstone said:

Intent however has been seized upon by every contender to ever set sight on the prize for the loopholes that may lie within the drafting of the protocol for an event.  And not a single team has ever concerned itself with falling the wrong side of intent if it allowed the development of an edge found legal by whatever process or committee that might require.

As it's said, to the victor go the spoils... but on the phlip-side, such developments can become bigger causes of headaches that they're worth.  Case in point the bowsprit on Team New Zealand's 1992 entry which went on to overshadow that TNZ campaign and led to its ultimate demise.

You only have to look at ETNZ's ride height controller at the last AC. They acquired/developed the best fully automatic foiling ride height controller they could, then refined the human interface to meet the rule.

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3 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

I think simplistically that the ETNZ solution was a design built around the system the cyclors powered...That embodied so many changes to the way others designed, built and operated their vessels that it simply wasn't possible to achieve ETNZ's advantages by the time the others came to appreciate half of what those might have been...

The cyclors concept was conceived from day 1 for ETNZ's hydraulic system. ETNZ realised very early on that to keep the maximum 3 accumulators full was a herculean task at best using arms. Even Oracle worked that out by having one accumulator dedicated to main foils up/down only and was charged before racing started. If they exceeded a maximum number of tacks/gybes in a race, then they were stuffed. Their grinders were flat out keeping 2 accumulators under control by arms alone

ETNZ's extra cyclor power and the fact that the hydraulic system was designed around that extra power meant that they only needed to run 2 accumulators to operate the entire boat with arguably more demand given the sail/rig controls were all hydraulic.

Even if other teams switched to pedal power, the design of the hydraulic system may not have been suited to such.

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49 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

I think simplistically that the ETNZ solution was a design built around the system the cyclors powered...That embodied so many changes to the way others designed, built and operated their vessels that it simply wasn't possible to achieve ETNZ's advantages by the time the others came to appreciate half of what those might have been...

Not entirely true.  ETNZ's maint trimming system (Glenn's control box) would have used less hydraulic power than the winches used by everyone else.

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Hey you morons - focus! This thread is about American Magic and DEFIANT.

Who the hell cares what happened in Bermuda years ago with trained circus bears whirling around on mounted Peleton contraptions and some bloke hunkered down in the hull cheating with a little handheld device while slowly rounding a course in 5 knots of breeze? That's the most boring racing I've ever seen in my life.

Take this crap to the "Auckland Home for The Aged and Infirm" where you can sit all diapered up in your rockers and reminisce.

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8 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Not entirely true.  ETNZ's maint trimming system (Glenn's control box) would have used less hydraulic power than the winches used by everyone else.

I didn't mean that the system required more power.  Rather I was trying to make the point that it was a completely integrated design - much like the wing section is the foundation of any large aircraft. ETNZ wasn't so much the sum of some cleverly though-out parts, but the cleverly thought-out parts created a vessel with unique advantages that coun't easily be re-produced... why Oracle even went so far as they did seems nonsensical looking back.

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14 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

I didn't mean that the system required more power.  Rather I was trying to make the point that it was a completely integrated design - much like the wing section is the foundation of any large aircraft. ETNZ wasn't so much the sum of some cleverly though-out parts, but the cleverly thought-out parts created a vessel with unique advantages that coun't easily be re-produced... why Oracle even went so far as they did seems nonsensical looking back.

And we will probably never know the other 100 innovative solutions that lurked beneath the hood of that boat. It had been mentioned by many team members, latest of all by Ashby. A full package as you say.

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4 hours ago, Skipstone said:

Well, I for one don't.  So I'd be interested to know how these 'developments' run counter to spirit and intent.

Well, I don't want to interpret SR's intent but I guess he was referring to that:

15.2 Control Systems in General
(a) ........ Any input or feedback used by the control systems to adjust the control surfaces is not permitted unless specifically allowed by the AC Class Rule.
(b) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, control systems used to adjust control surfaces shall not use positional information of the control surface or any part of the
control system, whether that positional information is measured, inferred or indicated by any method, including electronic counting, indexing or pulsing (e.g. stepper motors and
indexing actuators are not permitted).

And the reason he used the word is "intent" is because we know it has been ruled.

SR ?

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25 minutes ago, barfy said:

And we will probably never know the other 100 innovative solutions that lurked beneath the hood of that boat. It had been mentioned by many team members, latest of all by Ashby. A full package as you say.

Yeah I meant to comment on that - its funny we only know what was obvious and visible, and that there was so much other trick stuff that to this day no-one outside of the team has seen. Kinda explains why F50s are still trying to play catch-up. It's like chasing a ghost...

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21 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Good lord these KiWhingersTM are so freakin' sanctimonious - and clueless.

The Emiratis are already cheating via the S&S charade. Everyone except these idiots can see it.

Like Oracle did with Team Japan?

That went well...

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im still at an impasse with that one

knuckle dragging troll

or

not worthy of even bothering to address it

or

just word soup

 

 

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21 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Good lord these KiWhingersTM are so freakin' sanctimonious - and clueless.

The Emiratis are already cheating via the S&S charade. Everyone except these idiots can see it.

care to state the rule that has been broken and the evidence to support it?

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24 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

It's like chasing a ghost...

Unlike chasing Herbie:P

There is some much cross pollination between AC personnel with differing cycles that secrets and technological leaps would be very difficult to protect  permanently.

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20 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Like Oracle did with Team Japan?

That went well...

I'm not trying to defend anyone. That's the pretzel logic you dimwitted Kiwis continuously wrap yourselves in - crying foul out of one side of your drooling maws, while sanctimoniously justifying your own cheating out of the other.

Cheating is cheating. It's that simple. You guys will forever carry an asterisk on that one. But, again, that's ancient history. Who cares? Like I said, it was the most boring sailing I've ever seen. Like driving undercharged golf carts around Bushwood. The only item of interest was "flight time" which, in light of the super mellow conditions, was wholly unimpressive.

If the Emiratis want to cheat and stand up a sham S&S team to salvage some little shred of dignity in what has become the most disastrous AC in history under their leadership, I don't give damn. But S&S should be ridiculed without mercy if they bend that knee...especially by us Americans. Each member of that team will have the S&SD moniker by their names for eternity in our fine country - indicating "Douchebag".

There is only one American team.

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As I've already said many times, if, as it's increasingly seeming to be the case, the Emiratis are funding/supporting S&S under the table - for whatever reason - they are cheating.

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10 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

As I've already said many times, if, as it's increasingly seeming to be the case, the Emiratis are funding/supporting S&S under the table - for whatever reason - they are cheating.

As I've already said ... care to state the rule that has been broken and the evidence to support it?

Where in the protocol does it say the defender is not allowed to financially assist a challenger? and when/if you find that, was it cash, gold, diamonds or do you have bank transfer details?

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Really, Lick? You have to have this explained to you via a citation from "the rule book"? What I said above stands.

If you can't figure it out for yourself, ask an Australian. I can't be bothered with Kindergarten.

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he didnt ask for another troll

he asked for a citing of the rule prohibiting that

 

i would add where is your proof .. of any kind that tnz has given financial help to a challenger .. any of them ..

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6 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Really, Lick? You have to have this explained to you via a citation from "the rule book"? What I said above stands.

If you can't figure it out for yourself, ask an Australian. I can't be bothered with Kindergarten.

yes I would like a citation of the rule that is broken ... from Wiki  "Cheating in sports is the intentional breaking of rules in order to obtain an advantage over the other teams or players "

if there isn't a rule being broken it can't be classified as cheating. Therefore; you claiming they are cheating is a form of defamation

 

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It really is Kindergarten. Okay, let's start here...

Start a thread on this ETNZ-Funded-American-Team Strategy (funding a challenger) and you Kiwis lay out all your righteous justifications for it and the strategic/tactical/pr advantages that will flow therefrom (because it's "not cheating" you see).

Work through the rules (and facts to date) about the financials, the hulls, the foils, the required events, the deadlines, etc. - and how this all smells squeaky clean in that regard. Because, remember, Kiwis are shining examples of virtue - and Americans most certainly are not - according to you guys.

Most importantly, let's see the level of NZ support and enthusiasm for this move. Seriously. I will absolutely love to follow that conversation.

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and still no rule is quoted.

Whether financially assisting a challenger team is beneficial or not is a completely different scenario to whether it is allowed or not

you are forgetting LR is COR and should be policing the challangers ... ETNZ only deals with whoever wins the challenger series. LR has much more to gain by financially assisting a competitor, how do you know the blood diamonds aren't coming from them?

so quote the rule else find a new tinfoil hat

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6 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

and still no rule is quoted.

Whether financially assisting a challenger team is beneficial or not is a completely different scenario to whether it is allowed or not

you are forgetting LR is COR and should be policing the challangers ... ETNZ only deals with whoever wins the challenger series. LR has much more to gain by financially assisting a competitor, how do you know the blood diamonds aren't coming from them?

so quote the rule else find a new tinfoil hat

There will be no response other than whatever garners further attention, even if it is further just admonishment, that will suffice... again you are dealing with the sad, lost and broken... and again it's tragically sad... you'll be best to whack on ignore lest you get entangled in the self-destructive contempt of a narcissist. 

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11 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

ETNZ only deals with whoever wins the challenger series....

Not if they are funding a challenger.

As I said above - this increasingly appears to be the case with S&S. We'll see. But if it is - the Emiratis are cheating. Pure and simple.,,well, simple for most people. For you...

#AskAnAustralian

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As an embarrassed AM supporter I can't believe I'm going to bite .... but you're suggesting that a team which is privately struggling to generate enough sponsorship to cover the budget for its own campaign, is funding another team?  Ummm ..... ok, I guess?

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Who the hell cares what happened in Bermuda years ago with trained circus bears whirling around on mounted Peleton contraptions and some bloke hunkered down in the hull cheating with a little handheld device while slowly rounding a course in 5 knots of breeze? That's the most boring racing I've ever seen in my life.

Hey Slap Pappy - isn't this most boring racing that you have ever seen, the exact premise of what Sail Gp is?

The same series that you bore us shitless with endless superlatives and sycophantic descriptions. 

True colours displayed or tongue slip?

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31 minutes ago, BSPN said:

As an embarrassed AM supporter I can't believe I'm going to bite .... but you're suggesting that a team which is privately struggling to generate enough sponsorship to cover the budget for its own campaign, is funding another team?  Ummm ..... ok, I guess?

I'm only going by various tidbits I've seen in the press (which I've already covered and won't do so again - e.g. Gladwell, et al.) - and, well, there is always this...

1289294807_ScreenShot2020-05-11at1_41_20AM.png.6dc217255af61ff1e0e7bafa6ae55102.png

So, have Lick walk you through the various rules for a challenger's participation, and judge S&S' conformance to those rules for yourself.

Then ask why they would still be listed as a challenger above in light of those same rules. Who benefits from that?

Lick has already tied herself into knots over this in just 3 posts. So you might be out of luck. But it's worth a shot.

 

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42 minutes ago, BSPN said:

As an embarrassed AM supporter I can't believe I'm going to bite .... but you're suggesting that a team which is privately struggling to generate enough sponsorship to cover the budget for its own campaign, is funding another team?  Ummm ..... ok, I guess?

Hey who are you calling poor and struggling.

We are a team of 5 million don’t you forget it.

Remember we benevolently donated Deano to bolster your latest tilt at the poisoned chalice not to add to the NYYC’s much sullied history of cheating and skullduggery concerning matters of AC integrity.