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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

...any boat speed over 30 knots is capable of...in the upper wind range ...

Pretty much anything over 15 degrees AWA... plenty of boats which can do....

And as I said at the very beginning, I would expect an AC75 to do a lot better that that.

Exactly. You've got nothing. That's my freakin' point! Run along now.

Geez, children these days.

Now, back to the adult conversation...who has reliable/proven numbers on upwind angles these AC75s can actually do? Anyone? That really is the starting place.

Stingers - you heard anything?

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And we have liftoff!!

I for one was happy to finally see an American team that didn’t just reek of assholes. Terry was a great bloke to have in front of the cameras and the intimate videos behind the scenes I found quite f

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1 hour ago, bigrpowr said:

obviously subjective but... ETNZ look alot faster than nick.

What’s the subjective bit? Massive prototype boat with hydro and foils is faster in open water than bloke on 5k kite set up. 
 

 

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Some of the most coveted info would be pointing angle/downwind angle when powered up.  Having access to that on a public forum at this juncture would not make much sense, considering the teams probably only know their own data so far.

Maybe fast and low downwind will win the race.

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11 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

What’s the subjective bit? Massive prototype boat with hydro and foils is faster in open water than bloke on 5k kite set up. 
 

 

Thanks. I didn't want to be the first one to break the love bubble.

I've noticed ALL the AC75s are far faster than a duck too.

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The speed potential of these boats is obviously enormous.

Way back, Burns Fellow, North Sails designer and ETNZ team member (who helped write the AC75 Rule) had some interesting things to say about apparent wind sailing and about sailing mechanics of these boats: “As soon as you start foiling and your apparent wind gets higher, you become much more aware of drag...Drag becomes a very important consideration when you have 45-50kts of apparent wind coming across the deck.” 

Also on the AC75 rig being small and using the double skinned mainsail: “…we can approach a lift coefficient of around 2.0 with a soft wing and headsail configuration where a conventional sail would be 20% lower than that”.

I haven’t been able to find any references to optimum vectors though.

 

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

The speed potential of these boats is obviously enormous.

Way back, Burns Fellow, North Sails designer and ETNZ team member (who helped write the AC75 Rule) had some interesting things to say about apparent wind sailing and about sailing mechanics of these boats: “As soon as you start foiling and your apparent wind gets higher, you become much more aware of drag...Drag becomes a very important consideration when you have 45-50kts of apparent wind coming across the deck.” 

Also on the AC75 rig being small and using the double skinned mainsail: “…we can approach a lift coefficient of around 2.0 with a soft wing and headsail configuration where a conventional sail would be 20% lower than that”.

I haven’t been able to find any references to optimum vectors though.

 

 

Funny you bring that up, SBD. Burns also provided the answer long ago as to why Deano was pumping the boat in some of these videos while coming up on the foils...

Quote

“Upwind the AC75 will need to build speed by coming off its optimal VMG upwind course for some time, and may have to sail a reaching course to some degree.”

Of course, the "geniuses" around here thought it was lack of control...just like they think that 100% flight time is the fastest way to race.

#NOFREAKINCLUE

As for the vectors, I haven't seen anything solid either. I was hoping Stingray had found something. He's one of the few reliable/knowledgeable posters around here with the ability to back up what he says with facts - well, in addition to me, of course.

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From the video...light winds, low speed, so tough to take much from this...but the AC75 doesn't exactly seem be a wind-hugger in Bermuda conditions..

vectors_AM01.thumb.png.fa004268f4868111714f788b86032391.png

Anybody else have anything better?

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18 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

What’s the subjective bit? Massive prototype boat with hydro and foils is faster in open water than bloke on 5k kite set up. 
 

 

subjective meaning speed relative to AM vs the kite... dickhead.

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Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

:P

 

IMG_20200822_150356.jpg

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

Hmm not too impressed with your social distancing there Weta with RG and beware gulls do pair for life.

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

Proof that you’re not one in the same person then. Good to see you both wear the right coloured jackets too. 

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13 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

So you're stalking me again? You really don't have to follow/read my stuff. I don't mind. I don't read/follow yours.

So you don't read his posts, yet you react and respond to them......

Add that to your inability to understand AWS (apparent wind speed) from BS (boatspeed, but in your case Bull Shit is equally transferable) and yet you demand "Proof".

Clown Pa fumbling for for anthing that supports his narrative, in any guise, flavour or snapshot. And trying to deflect from his own poorly constructed position.

And stop denigrating the sterling work by @weta27 when he says that July 15 was as windy as the day as defiant was out in, then accept his account for what it represents - Consistent observations and more than a grain of honesty, which is more than you have ever demonstrated. 

YCMTSU.

You can't Handle the Proof........ 

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6 hours ago, Boink said:

So you don't read his posts, yet you react and respond to them......

I think if you look at post histories you'll notice that, between him and me, only one of us stalks the other in threads they are posting in and baits like you saw above. And it's not me.

Also, I don't have an "ignore" list. I'm man enough not to need one. So if someone posts directly at me in a thread I'm in, I choose whether to respond. Most of the time, like with you, I'm not interested enough to engage. But I'll respond every once in a while if I feel it's warranted. In the case above, for reasons you wouldn't understand - it was absolutely warranted.

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22 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

From the video...light winds, low speed, so tough to take much from this...but the AC75 doesn't exactly seem be a wind-hugger in Bermuda conditions..

vectors_AM01.thumb.png.fa004268f4868111714f788b86032391.png

Anybody else have anything better?

WTF is a 'wind-hugger'?

 

Did you not get the memo, you have to use yellow lines!

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Yellow doesn't match my platform shoes.

So, in this vid, Te Ahmed is more powered up and a bit tighter to the wind - but still seems to be tacking through 60° - 70°...just a bit better than AM above which was in lighter conditions...

vectors_NZ01.thumb.png.c35ac94257d60cbd3c8b27e77c806f6a.png

Better hope for some breeze in these races if they expect these AC75s to make the top mark before the cutoff. Heh.

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One from yesterday and one from today. 

They were off Brown's Bay today, looked to be sailing the course up there. Only got to watch them for a few minutes, but looked pretty slick.

Stopped just after we arrived and dropped the jib. Still out apparently.

DSC_1463.jpg

DSC_1480.jpg

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5 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Yellow doesn't match my platform shoes.

So, in this vid, Te Ahmed is more powered up and a bit tighter to the wind - but still seems to be tacking through 60° - 70°...just a bit better than AM above which was in lighter conditions...

vectors_NZ01.thumb.png.c35ac94257d60cbd3c8b27e77c806f6a.png

Better hope for some breeze in these races if they expect these AC75s to make the top mark before the cutoff. Heh.

Um.... So you calculate a yachts VMG up a beat by the angle they tack through the wind?!?! Good luck with that...:rolleyes:

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6 minutes ago, P Flados said:

If we  want anything resembling reasonable estimates for VMG, we need to hold a collection to go toward better drones for SAAC spying.    

If only there was an anarchist with a plane and pilots license in Auckland that could take @weta27for a fact finding flight over the boats

Possible.. If he wasn’t spending all his time with his new purple toy :ph34r:
 

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48 minutes ago, uflux said:

Um.... So you calculate a yachts VMG up a beat by the angle they tack through the wind?!?! Good luck with that...:rolleyes:

No. Try to pay attention. This has nothing to do with VMG (yet). As SBD and I have been discussing, this is about the angles that the AC75 can sail upwind...which then begins to give an idea of potential AWS.

Of course, if the mark is dead upwind, then, yes, these angles mean a lot to VMG as well.

So what educated opinion do you bring to the table?

Here's some homework while I'm waiting to be enlightened...what did Burns Fellow mean by this?

Quote

“Upwind the AC75 will need to build speed by coming off its optimal VMG upwind course for some time, and may have to sail a reaching course to some degree.”

Was he right? And if so, where is the transition and what AWS creates it?

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11 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

I think if you look at post histories you'll notice that, between him and me, only one of us stalks the other in threads they are posting in and baits like you saw above. And it's not me.

Also, I don't have an "ignore" list. I'm man enough not to need one. So if someone posts directly at me in a thread I'm in, I choose whether to respond. Most of the time, like with you, I'm not interested enough to engage. But I'll respond every once in a while if I feel it's warranted. In the case above, for reasons you wouldn't understand - it was absolutely warranted.

So yet again you contradict yourself......

That pedestal that place yourself and your percieved knowledge, symbolically upon, is actually to be found in a storage cupboard on Basement level -5 of a very dull and rarely visited archive building miles out of town on a restricted road......

You are just white noise amongst the Hub Bub of this busy place. You do not bring any interesting insights or knowledge. Just criticism and complaint. Mostly self concocted and self inflicted.

Shame really, what we are witnessing here is the space race of the sailing world. Some bits will work, some won't. Failures and mistakes will enevitably be made. Triumphs and conquering of difficulties through technology and new techniques will emerge.

Your negative take is just sad and unwarranted. And seemingly unending.

My Gran always liked to remind people about Not saying anything if you can't say anything nice. Thats very black and white and I respect that nuances and shades of grey exist.

But for your level of comprehension - Just Shut Up.

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6 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

No. Try to pay attention. This has nothing to do with VMG (yet). As SBD and I have been discussing, this is about the angles that the AC75 can sail upwind...which then begins to give an idea of potential AWS.

Of course, if the mark is dead upwind, then, yes, these angles mean a lot to VMG as well.

So what educated opinion do you bring to the table?

Here's some homework while I'm waiting to be enlightened...what did Burns Fellow mean by this?

Was he right? And if so, where is the transition and what AWS creates it?

The angle a yacht comeS out of a tack is largely irrelevant to your argument. Is that enlightening enough??B)

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6 hours ago, uflux said:

The angle a yacht comeS out of a tack is largely irrelevant to your argument. Is that enlightening enough??B)

Well, it's about as "enlightening" as I expected.

Here's another question/hint for you since you're doubling down...what is your estimate of VMG in the videos/photos above? You're welcome to use yellow.

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lol, 30 degrees to the wind as a regular upwind sailing angle.

where did you get that phd of sailing?  maybe from your smack dealer.

They seem to point pretty high at times, but 30 degrees would be too high for a sailboat on a regular basis.

Some of the video looks like they are lower than 45 degrees.

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3 hours ago, david r said:

lol, 30 degrees to the wind as a regular upwind sailing angle.

where did you get that phd of sailing?  maybe from your smack dealer.

They seem to point pretty high at times, but 30 degrees would be too high for a sailboat on a regular basis.

Some of the video looks like they are lower than 45 degrees.

I've not stated any definitive numbers. I've just shown the tack angles from the videos.

And when you say this...

Quote

They seem to point pretty high at times, but 30 degrees would be too high for a sailboat on a regular basis. Some of the video looks like they are lower than 45 degrees.

How exactly do you arrive at that conclusion for these AC75s? Do others agree?

Finally, if these AC75s really can only do 45° upwind (or worse) - SBD is going to be very disappointed in that AWS number.

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7 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Well, it's about as "enlightening" as I expected.

Here's another question/hint for you since you're doubling down...what is your estimate of VMG in the videos/photos above? You're welcome to use yellow.

Well.. I am glad that you finally agree with me :)

As for VMG my perception is that we are seeing some very tight angles upwind. But of course, there can be various modes that will get you the same VMG low and fast through to high and slow. what angles these yachts come out of a tack are completely irrelevant. As I am sure you have realised in your answer above. Keep on flying dude!

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-08-24 at 11.43.42 AM.png

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5 hours ago, cinnr said:

@smackdaddy Are you talking about apparent wind speed (AWS)?

In the original discussion, Smack and I were discussing wind strength and AWS.

But that discussion morphed into questions about the possible vectors (angles to true wind direction) that the AC75's might be capable of sailing. Further discussions included how much more efficient the apparent wind sailing rig of the AC75 is when, compared to a conventional mono set-up (being much smaller, lighter and using twin skins etc).

In other words, how well can theses fuckers point?

 

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

As for VMG my perception is that we are seeing some very tight angles upwind. But of course, there can be various modes that will get you the same VMG low and fast through to high and slow. what angles these yachts come out of a tack are completely irrelevant. As I am sure you have realised in your answer above.

Your "perception"? So what are the angles? I assume you don't agree with david_r that they are most always more than 45° and almost never 30°?

And what are those modes you're referring to? I know the info exists somewhere - I just have very low confidence you either have insight into it, and/or understand it even if you do.

VMG includes a whole lot of factors - especially with these boats...and your upwind angle from tack to tack is absolutely one of those - especially if that's where your mark is. That's part of what Burns was talking about in his quote above. And though I'm sure you're brilliant at something in your life - it apparently ain't this. I'll stick with Burns, thanks.

PS - @cinnr - yes. SBD and I were talking about whether these boats have seen 55 knots AWS across the deck. I don't know one way or the other, I was just skeptical based on what I've seen in the videos thus far - at least for any appreciable amount of time. I have no doubt it's doable on these things, but that's why we were talking about angles/vectors and wind speed. uflummoxed just started howling about VMG in the middle of that discussion for some reason known only to him.

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55 knots of AWS?

Unless you have boat speed, angle to wind and TWS calculating AWS is impossible so the discussion is pointless.

They go fast... hopefully all boats will be similar and the racing will be close.

 

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9 minutes ago, Rushman said:

55 knots of AWS?

Unless you have boat speed, angle to wind and TWS calculating AWS is impossible so the discussion is pointless.

They go fast... hopefully all boats will be similar and the racing will be close.

 

Nooo. Really? "Boat speed, angle to wind and TWS". Who would have thought???

Wait a minute. Isn't that exactly why we're looking at the videos, etc. and seeing what can be derived from them?

Oh, you should throw VMG in there too to keep the peanut gallery happy. I'll let you explain it to them.

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18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

In the original discussion, Smack and I were discussing wind strength and AWS.

But that discussion morphed into questions about the possible vectors (angles to true wind direction) that the AC75's might be capable of sailing. Further discussions included how much more efficient the apparent wind sailing rig of the AC75 is when, compared to a conventional mono set-up (being much smaller, lighter and using twin skins etc).

In other words, how well can theses fuckers point?

 

So, like the last AC, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that and fuck knows how may before that, will be decided on who has the best VMG around a racecourse?

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7 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

So, like the last AC, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that and fuck knows how may before that, will be decided on who has the best VMG around a racecourse?

Outrageous suggestion!

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8 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Nooo. Really? "Boat speed, angle to wind and TWS". Who would have thought???

Wait a minute. Isn't that exactly why we're looking at the videos, etc. and seeing what can be derived from them?

Oh, you should throw VMG in there too to keep the peanut gallery happy. I'll let you explain it to them.

No need, most posters have an idea and don’t feel the need to post the obvious, there are a select handful that insist on wasting bandwidth with drivel

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9 minutes ago, Rushman said:

No need, most posters have an idea and don’t feel the need to post the obvious, there are a select handful that insist on wasting bandwidth with drivel

Cool. So what are the numbers? SBD and I would love to know.

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Your "perception"? So what are the angles? I assume you don't agree with david_r that they are most always more than 45° and almost never 30°?

And what are those modes you're referring to? I know the info exists somewhere - I just have very low confidence you either have insight into it, and/or understand it even if you do.

VMG includes a whole lot of factors - especially with these boats...and your upwind angle from tack to tack is absolutely one of those - especially if that's where your mark is. That's part of what Burns was talking about in his quote above. And though I'm sure you're brilliant at something in your life - it apparently ain't this. I'll stick with Burns, thanks.

PS - @cinnr - yes. SBD and I were talking about whether these boats have seen 55 knots AWS across the deck. I don't know one way or the other, I was just skeptical based on what I've seen in the videos thus far - at least for any appreciable amount of time. I have no doubt it's doable on these things, but that's why we were talking about angles/vectors and wind speed. uflummoxed just started howling about VMG in the middle of that discussion for some reason known only to him.

I guess my eyeballs don't count....

Because VMG is King my little cabbage. The yacht with the better VMG wins irrespective of what the highest AWS is in a race. But hey all power to you....do carry on the train wreck.

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3 hours ago, uflux said:

I guess my eyeballs don't count....

Because VMG is King my little cabbage. The yacht with the better VMG wins irrespective of what the highest AWS is in a race. But hey all power to you....do carry on the train wreck.

I think you meant to say "mon petit chou!" 

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On 8/22/2020 at 6:20 AM, Boink said:

 

.

Clown Pa fumbling for for anthing that supports his narrative, in any guise, flavour or snapshot.

he doesn't sail, in fact only had his first guest ride on a sailboat a few years ago. he did one race in a cruising tri.

he doesn't work

he lost his family

he's off his meds

it's all a troll.  literally all of it.

 

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21 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

Yes, because as annoying as it is, we all can scroll by or put it on ignore if we can't handle it. And misogyny was never a reason to ban someone hereabouts 

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having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

See one post up, same time posted as yours, fwiw

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37 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

It wouldn’t make much of a difference because of all the responses would still be there clogging everything up.

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30 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

I eventually ignored him, but it only cut out so much. That being said, what I do continue to see being quoted, is blatantly racist ("te amed", "emeratis", etc..) with the remainder of his "content" having the sole intent of aggravating forum members. If my opinion counted for anything, it would certainly be to remove him and his hateful rhetoric.

 Additionally, I think a few of the folks who have fallen victim to his trolling/who can post more aggressively contest would benefit from a keyboard break as well.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he doesn't sail, in fact only had his first guest ride on a sailboat a few years ago. he did one race in a cruising tri.

he doesn't work

he lost his family

he's off his meds

it's all a troll.  literally all of it.

 

Do what you want, Clean. But none of the above is true.

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51 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Yes, because as annoying as it is, we all can scroll by or put it on ignore if we can't handle it. And misogyny was never a reason to ban someone hereabouts 

Ren - I know we've gone round a bit, but I do appreciate your being reasonable.

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8 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

a review of your posts shows you are here for one reason only.

 

easy enough to prove any of it wrong. 

 

Clean, I've done literally nothing you haven't done yourself on SA for years. In fact I've done far, far less in terms of "provocative posting".

But it's your forum. I'll save you the trouble.

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As the event draws closer the number of newbies should increase and IMHO the adverse impact of trolling will increase proportionately. As a mod elsewhere, my policy is to deny trolls not only their access but their posterity. That includes posts that quote them and add nothing but a reaction. YMMV and all that jazz.

Cheers,

Earl

 

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Leeway.  Anyone mention that?

Even if a sailboat could regularly point up to 30 degrees, which i seriously doubt, they maybe won't tack on 60 degrees because of leeway.  That means they would go past the 60 degree layline before tacking.  Leeway will affect VMG, as does the bearing off to pick up speed to then gain height.

My apologies if that is too obvious.

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3 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Yes, because as annoying as it is, we all can scroll by or put it on ignore if we can't handle it. And misogyny was never a reason to ban someone hereabouts

Misogyny should be discouraged, same as homophobia and racism, by people who point it out when they see it. 

"if you read something misogynistic/racist/homophobic/etc. , say something."  

 

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So this is now a popularity contest? Thumb up and we keep him? Thumb down and he's fed to the lions?

I say try a bit harder.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he doesn't sail, in fact only had his first guest ride on a sailboat a few years ago. he did one race in a cruising tri.

he doesn't work

he lost his family

he's off his meds

it's all a troll.  literally all of it.

 

I question the point of your  vendetta. Surely a more adult solution would be to quit dogging him with personal attacks.

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long since put him on ignore

so apart from people quoting him i will miss nothing  ( nothing that has been quoted has helped to change my mind about his worth )

he is the bravo bravo of the AC forum

 

 

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

easy enough to prove any of it wrong. 

So we are are at the point when you have to prove you are innocent, rather than someone having prove your are guilty?

You ever been accused of anything Clean?  Like in a court?  Would a prosecutor say: "Persons on the jury, Clean cannot prove he is innocent so he must be guilty."  WTF?

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

I mean the Kiwi's on here are some of the worst trolls I have ever seen. Isn't that the whole point of this site? I like smack because he is the antidote to a troll like sclarke/fourourselves. Same percentage of troll posts as smack. Remove them both if you are going to remove one.

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17 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

I mean the Kiwi's on here are some of the worst trolls I have ever seen. Isn't that the whole point of this site? I like smack because he is the antidote to a troll like sclarke/fourourselves. Same percentage of troll posts as smack. Remove them both if you are going to remove one.

I’ll troll someone only AFTER they troll Me. What you don’t like is I have picked a team, I support that team. You are trying to fault them on something... anything, even if it doesn’t exist. If they cheat, break the rules or get caught doing some kind of underhanded shit like Oracle did, Ill be the first to call them out. Until then, Just know I’ll pick a hill and die on it, where you’d rather just call people names like a petulant little 5 year old trying to bully the new kid at school. You won’t pick a team because you’re scared. You’re afraid they’ll get carved up by my team so you sit on the fence saying “I’m here for the technology” while at the same time bagging the technology you claim to be here for so you cover for your own insecurities by insulting Me. Guess what dickhead... sticks and stones and all that jazz. You make up conspiracy theories and try to pass them off as fact. And then when someone asks for proof, you say you can’t be bothered looking for it but it exists... somewhere. So next time you call me a troll, look in the damn mirror.

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

Slippery slope doing the ministry of truth gig.

Everyone needs a holiday now and again though.

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I am not waiting for the recantation, so all the same stay or go. I do hold grudges enough to have looked for the posts.  A New Year resolution for me to let go and let karma seems in the offing!

 

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Edited by NeedAClew
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2 hours ago, pluscount said:

So we are are at the point when you have to prove you are innocent, rather than someone having prove your are guilty?

You ever been accused of anything Clean?  Like in a court?  Would a prosecutor say: "Persons on the jury, Clean cannot prove he is innocent so he must be guilty."  WTF?

 

How would a person prove the assertion "YOU ARE NOT A SAILOR" wrong?

and other mindbenders.

Jesus I do not know how some of you are able to work a toothbrush.

 

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