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Have Torqueedo Outboards Come of Age Yet


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6 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Honestly if I had to deal with recharging the dinghy, I would probably just get a 9 foot Dyer that rows well and call it a day. We survived decades of rowing/sailing a Dyer without undue harm. You do have a "ratchet effect". When rowing was it, it was just a given you weren't going to a town 10 miles away for supplies, now i can do that at 18 knots or more it seems like normal.

 

A 9 foot Dyer is what I'm using.  Yeah, it rows like a dream. The EP Carry would be to supplement the rowing for long distances or high winds and puttering through the "guts" at Smith Island. I would still row as my primary motivator, when practical.

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There is some cool electric inboard stuff going on here with a lot of data and more coming: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=108411 The poster here is an EV enginee

I had an exciting response from EP Carry today.  I asked questions like "can I use this battery at this voltage with your outboard" and they wrote an incredibly detailed and open reply.  Now I'm 90% s

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3 hours ago, Alex W said:
4 hours ago, Ajax said:

running a generator or alternator to re-charge the battery doesn't save any carbon units.

Unless you already are motoring for other purposes (like moving the big boat) and can siphon off electricity to charge the electric outboard. 

If you distract an engine by occupying it with a big task you can get it to do other work for free. Also, broken cookies don't have any calories.  ;)

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8 minutes ago, weightless said:

If you distract an engine by occupying it with a big task you can get it to do other work for free. Also, broken cookies don't have any calories.  ;)

Yes and no, you actually are burning more fuel to do the charging. As a general engineering principle, putting gas in the dinghy engine will take you WAY further than using it to generate electricity to charge a battery to run a motor.

Three Laws of Thermodynamics

1. You can't win

2. You can't break even.

3. You have to play.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Yes and no, you actually are burning more fuel to do the charging. As a general engineering principle, putting gas in the dinghy engine will take you WAY further than using it to generate electricity to charge a battery to run a motor.

Three Laws of Thermodynamics

1. You can't win

2. You can't break even.

3. You have to play.

I haven't checked the numbers (added a check below) but I wouldn't be surprised if the efficiency of your diesel with more load at certain RPMs increases enough to offset the alternator and battery charging losses (Lithium's are close to 99%) in combination with the much lower efficiency of a 2-stroke outboard at low load. 4-stroke outboards are probably close to a wash.

Modern Diesel efficiency is around 40-50% when loaded while 2-stroke gas is about 15-20% and 4-strokes are 20-30%.

Modern Alternator efficiency pushes around 80%.

45% Diesel Efficiency x 80% alternator efficiency x 85% Flooded Lead Acid Charge Efficiency (House Bank) * 75% motor efficiency = 22.95% which is better than a 2-smoke and potentially worse than a 4-stroke. This is assuming peak efficiency on each engine type which is also far more likely with your diesel inboard under load than it is putting around in a dinghy.

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21 minutes ago, climenuts said:

I haven't checked the numbers (added a check below) but I wouldn't be surprised if the efficiency of your diesel with more load at certain RPMs increases enough to offset the alternator and battery charging losses (Lithium's are close to 99%) in combination with the much lower efficiency of a 2-stroke outboard at low load. 4-stroke outboards are probably close to a wash.

Modern Diesel efficiency is around 40-50% when loaded while 2-stroke gas is about 15-20% and 4-strokes are 20-30%.

Modern Alternator efficiency pushes around 80%.

45% Diesel Efficiency x 80% alternator efficiency x 85% Flooded Lead Acid Charge Efficiency (House Bank) * 75% motor efficiency = 22.95% which is better than a 2-smoke and potentially worse than a 4-stroke. This is assuming peak efficiency on each engine type which is also far more likely with your diesel inboard under load than it is putting around in a dinghy.

The governor on a diesel or the human governor of a gas engine sets the throttle for 2,000 RPM with a 5 amp load on the alternator. Increase that load to 10 amps or 100 amps and the mechanical or human device has to add more fuel to make more power to hold the same RPM. There is no magic way more load = less fuel.  * obviously in the real world we are talking maybe half a pint per hour of fuel or less. A 100 amp load probably translates to about 1/10 gallon/hour extra.

The fuel consumption of my dinghy can be quite significant, too much running around at 100% throttle x 15 HP will go through some gas. My old 2 HP Honda OTOH seemed to use maybe a gallon a year.

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The governor on a diesel or the human governor of a gas engine sets the throttle for 2,000 RPM with a 5 amp load on the alternator. Increase that load to 10 amps or 100 amps and the mechanical or human device has to add more fuel to make more power to hold the same RPM. There is no magic way more load = less fuel.  * obviously in the real world we are talking maybe half a pint per hour of fuel or less. A 100 amp load probably translates to about 1/10 gallon/hour extra.

The fuel consumption of my dinghy can be quite significant, too much running around at 100% throttle x 15 HP will go through some gas. My old 2 HP Honda OTOH seemed to use maybe a gallon a year.

It will burn less fuel than you would with a 2-stroke outboard. Obviously the power you generate with your diesel isn't free - but the napkin calc above shows it's likely more efficient to charge a battery with a diesel imboard and use it with an electric outboard (provided your running the diesel under load anyway) than it would be to run a 2-stroke outboard directly.

This also doesn't look at the cost of the fuel where diesel is usually the cheaper option: Especially if you're using high octane premium gasoline in your 2-stroke to avoid putting ethanol through it.

This doesn't account whatsoever for the energy density and use case limitations which is my primary argument why electric technology isn't mature enough for me.

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18 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

But can I do a 30 mile round trip in an hour or less with the battery dinghy?

"This doesn't account whatsoever for the energy density and use case limitations which is my primary argument why electric technology isn't mature enough for me."

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Yes and no, you actually are burning more fuel to do the charging.

There is no doubt to this at all.

For me it is more about enjoyment of using the little boat.  I love rowing the dinghy because it lets me come in close to wildlife or quiet areas where the sound of an outboard is just disruptive.  I occasionally miss my outboard for longer exploritory excursions.  An electric outboard seems like a good compromise.  I'm trying to optimize overall for number of hours that I ever hear an engine running, not amount of fuel that I'm burning.  From that point of view it's better to use an electric outboard charged from my primary engine (when that engine is running) then to also carry a gas outboard.  I'd also like to eliminate as many ICE engines to maintain as possible.

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8 hours ago, Ajax said:

@Alex W  Oooh, I just found the calculator on their website. Very handy!  I'd get 5 miles of range on that little guy.

I love the big skeg/fin that protects the prop. This might solve Dylan's problem. If I had just two batteries, that would be huge. Slap another solar panel on my dodger, and Bob's your uncle. This would be ideal for the Chesapeake and some other places on the East Coast.  Maybe not so much for the Caribbean and anchorages that are very far from the docks.

I had an exciting response from EP Carry today.  I asked questions like "can I use this battery at this voltage with your outboard" and they wrote an incredibly detailed and open reply.  Now I'm 90% sure that I'm going to buy an EP Carry because I want to support companies that are "hacker friendly" and this email exudes that.  I'm totally fine with trading away warranty (my assumption, they didn't bring it up) for good documentation.  The EPCarry seems scaled well to small rowboats like your Dyer and my Gig Harbor.  We have no cruising plans this summer, but I think it'll get used for some fun trips with my son (like motor 1nm away to sail around in a bay near the locks).

A few weeks ago I asked the US ePropulsion dealer if they had any motors in stock to sell me they hounded me for a week trying to get me to commit without ever telling me if the motor actually existed and without answering my technical questions.  I got no warm fuzzies.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I think if I did go electric, I would get a generic trolling motor.

I read enough on these this morning to see that I don't want one.  Most don't even have proper motor controllers, for slower speeds they just dump voltage across resistors instead of the motor.  I don't really want such a wasteful device.

There are a lot of people making the the trolling motors into better outboards by replacing the prop, putting a better motor controller in, and fairing around the shaft.  That's all fun projects if you have the time, but I'd rather just buy a finished motor in the first place.  BoatDesign.net has pretty big threads on this subject.  For an example scroll down to the post by MCDenny on this thread: https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/efficient-electric-boat.27996/page-17

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1 hour ago, Alex W said:

I had an exciting response from EP Carry today.  I asked questions like "can I use this battery at this voltage with your outboard" and they wrote an incredibly detailed and open reply.  Now I'm 90% sure that I'm going to buy an EP Carry because I want to support companies that are "hacker friendly" and this email exudes that.  I'm totally fine with trading away warranty (my assumption, they didn't bring it up) for good documentation.  The EPCarry seems scaled well to small rowboats like your Dyer and my Gig Harbor.  We have no cruising plans this summer, but I think it'll get used for some fun trips with my son (like motor 1nm away to sail around in a bay near the locks).

A few weeks ago I asked the US ePropulsion dealer if they had any motors in stock to sell me they hounded me for a week trying to get me to commit without ever telling me if the motor actually existed and without answering my technical questions.  I got no warm fuzzies.

I had a buddy who was strongly considering an EP Carry (and eventually bought one) who dragged me over to the Electric Paddle booth at the Seattle Boat Show in 2019. I ended up talking with Joe Grez, the founder of the company, for nearly an hour about the various aspects of the design, support, spares, etc.

Having worked many trade shows myself and being acutely aware of how much of his time I was taking, I'd try to back away whenever a potential customer would come up to the booth so he could try to close a sale. Instead, he'd call over one of his colleagues to talk to the prospect, even making them wait if the booth was busy. I got the distinct sense that he not only really liked to talk about his baby, but that he was constantly considering alternative engineering solutions. At one point I asked him how he felt about a customer adding larger battery than they offered and he was completely open to the idea of owners rolling their own. I'm glad to hear that still holds true.

If the power of the Carry is sufficient for your needs and you don't mind treating the prop as a consumable item, it's a great little solution. 

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Funny IStream, the first thing he asked in his email was if we had met at the boat show and I brought up supplying my own battery there. He might have confused me for you. 

I do admit it is a niche market that is targeting since the motor is best suited to small rigid dingies — not the most popular choice. 

The motor should have plenty of power for my needs. My dinghy can’t plane anyway.  The main thing holding me back was his small battery, but being able to use my surplus ebike batteries solves that problem for me.  I have two high quality 360wh (36V/10ah) batteries that are right at 5lbs each, together in parallel they’ll give me a run time of 3 hours at full throttle.  I’ll probably package them in a Pelican case.  

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That's funny!

FWIW, after my buddy bought the Carry, he brought it out to torture test on my Walker 10. We got that ~150lb dinghy plus ~400lbs of dude up to about 3 kts behind the breakwater on a calm day. I didn't think it was quite powerful enough for my purposes but the Walker's not exactly a speed demon and we had it loaded up. I suspect your Gig Harbor with a small family will do just fine. 

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I pulled the trigger on an ep carry at this years boat show after my 40 year old 2 hp gas motor went for a swim. As a warning to others, if it is predicted to blow to 25 kts in the anchorage you might want to take the motor off the inflatable dink rather then leave it in the water and watch the whole mess fly like a kite and land upside down.

I was not sad to replace the loud fluid leaking outboard with an almost zero maintenance electric. As already mentioned it is not for long distance exploring, but is geat for ship to shore use and exploring small bays and anchorages. I also like that I can lift it with one hand and store it anywhere I want with no worries about smells and leaks, and I no longer need to store any gas on the boat. We use it on a soft floor inflatable and even though that is kind of a worse case scenario it works fine. I do wish it had a battery monitor of some sort built in, they are apparently working on that and had a prototype at the show.

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7 hours ago, steele said:

I pulled the trigger on an ep carry at this years boat show after my 40 year old 2 hp gas motor went for a swim. As a warning to others, if it is predicted to blow to 25 kts in the anchorage you might want to take the motor off the inflatable dink rather then leave it in the water and watch the whole mess fly like a kite and land upside down.

I was not sad to replace the loud fluid leaking outboard with an almost zero maintenance electric. As already mentioned it is not for long distance exploring, but is geat for ship to shore use and exploring small bays and anchorages. I also like that I can lift it with one hand and store it anywhere I want with no worries about smells and leaks, and I no longer need to store any gas on the boat. We use it on a soft floor inflatable and even though that is kind of a worse case scenario it works fine. I do wish it had a battery monitor of some sort built in, they are apparently working on that and had a prototype at the show.

Now you can PM Alex and ask where he picks up his less expensive batteries and you can carry a few with you. That'll greatly extend your range.

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23 hours ago, Ajax said:

A 9 foot Dyer is what I'm using.  Yeah, it rows like a dream. The EP Carry would be to supplement the rowing for long distances or high winds and puttering through the "guts" at Smith Island. I would still row as my primary motivator, when practical.

FYI:

Dyers don't sink, but they do capsize and are not self-rescuing. Found that one out the hard way.

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

FYI:

Dyers don't sink, but they do capsize and are not self-rescuing. Found that one out the hard way.

Heck, my foam is old enough that I'm not even certain about the "non-sinking" part.

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

Now you can PM Alex and ask where he picks up his less expensive batteries and you can carry a few with you. That'll greatly extend your range.

Steele and I keep our boats a couple of slips apart from each other.  I think I’ll have the 3rd EP Carry on the dock, a woman across the dock from me also has one. 

The batteries that I’m using aren’t cheaper, I just already have them.  They occasionally get used when I need longer range on my e-cargo-bike. I have two of these 36V 10ah made by AllCell:

http://www.chicagoelectricbicycles.com/Batteries.html

This is 4 brand new batteries identical to the EP Carry battery for $600. It would be a good deal for two EP Carry owners to split it:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254484133556

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Thanks for the offer to try. I’m just going to buy it, I think it’ll work well for my needs. 

I thought the same at first, but if you read the listing it is for 4 batteries (they talk about it as 2 pairs of 2 batteries). It does look like they’ve probably sat for a long time though. 

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Alex's bike is more of a two wheeled truck than a bike. He is in pretty good shape but I would not wan't to be responsible for him having to pedal it home unassisted.

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It’s not that bad to ride without the assist, but I might be late picking up my son from school. The battery is locked to the bike, so Steele would need to carry a huge bike in his dinghy...

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No, but pay attention to the LiPo battery. Lithium Polymer (same as in your smartphone) is not the same as LiFePo (same as in a Torqueedo or EP Carry) and generally doesn't last nearly as many charge cycles.

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On 7/1/2020 at 9:25 AM, Ajax said:

Heck, my foam is old enough that I'm not even certain about the "non-sinking" part.

Through a chain of several bad decisions, I had to go about a half mile in December at night in my Dyer with the wind kicking to 40+. I kept saying to myself "DO NOT SCREW THIS UP". I was doing at least hull speed if not more dragging the oars to slow down and steer. I really needed to make the turn in the creek into my slip, missing it mean a trip all the way across the Severn to the far side and much much larger waves :o Knowing a capsize would be the end of this trip concentrated the mind and I made the turn ;)

 

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

No, but pay attention to the LiPo battery. Lithium Polymer (same as in your smartphone) is not the same as LiFePo (same as in a Torqueedo or EP Carry) and generally doesn't last nearly as many charge cycles.

I don’t think Torqeedo or ePropulsion is using LFP. EP Carry is. 

You can get good service life out of LiPo by rarely doing a full charge or full discharge. This is how lithium car batteries (also rarely LFP) last so long.  For example my electric car has a 22kwh battery but the car only uses the middle 18kwh.  Tesla does the same which is why they can “unlock” extra capacity in emergency situations (like evacuations).

On my ebike I charge to 4.05v per cell instead of 4.2v per cell for the same reason. Occasionally I’ll do a completely full charge if I need the range. 

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I actually do the same thing with my LiFePo house bank on the boat. I charge to 90% and try to stay above 10% SOC on discharge. I do occasionally recharge to 100% so the BMS can do a top balance but it's mostly for SOC calibration rather than capacity optimization.

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3 hours ago, IStream said:

I actually do the same thing with my LiFePo house bank on the boat. I charge to 90% and try to stay above 10% SOC on discharge. I do occasionally recharge to 100% so the BMS can do a top balance but it's mostly for SOC calibration rather than capacity optimization.

How has that worked for you? I hate, hate, hate AGMs, but the offshore races that I occasionally do won't allow T105s. 

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Not sealed and have liquid acid.

2.7.4 Batteries: A boat's onboard rechargeable batteries shall be of the sealed type or be installed in such a way that electrolyte cannot escape in the event of inversion.
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7 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Not sealed and have liquid acid.

2.7.4 Batteries: A boat's onboard rechargeable batteries shall be of the sealed type or be installed in such a way that electrolyte cannot escape in the event of inversion.

Couldn't you build an enclosure for the 105's that wouldn't allow acid to escape into the rest of the boat?

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Through a chain of several bad decisions, I had to go about a half mile in December at night in my Dyer with the wind kicking to 40+. I kept saying to myself "DO NOT SCREW THIS UP". I was doing at least hull speed if not more dragging the oars to slow down and steer. I really needed to make the turn in the creek into my slip, missing it mean a trip all the way across the Severn to the far side and much much larger waves :o Knowing a capsize would be the end of this trip concentrated the mind and I made the turn ;)

 

My memory of Dyer Dhows is that the best they ever do is grudgingly float to the rails when swamped. 

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2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Not sealed and have liquid acid.

2.7.4 Batteries: A boat's onboard rechargeable batteries shall be of the sealed type or be installed in such a way that electrolyte cannot escape in the event of inversion.

T-105 batteries are size GC2. Those are available in AGM and gel. gel > AGM ;)

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3 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not even that  - half the boat is totally under.

Ours would do that - the rails would float level to the surface as long as you didn't put any weight on it and didn't have the sailing rig in - and certainly not enough to bail out!

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4 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

How has that worked for you? I hate, hate, hate AGMs, but the offshore races that I occasionally do won't allow T105s. 

By way of background, I went from a nominal 800Ah AGM bank to a 400Ah LiFePo bank. I love them but they're not a drop-in solution, no matter what some manufacturers will tell you. At the very least you need to take steps to protect your alternator should the batteries decide they're in trouble and cut themselves off from the outside world. They hate to be held at a full state of charge, so if you can't disconnect them completely when you're not using the boat for long periods, you need to float them at a voltage equivalent to 30-70% SOC. And because their voltage versus SOC curve is so flat, your shore power charger, solar charge controller, and alternator voltage regulator all need to be first-rate and ideally have dedicated voltage sense wires. When I had lead, I'd keep them floated at 100% SOC 24/7 while at the dock. With the LiFePo's I hold my bank at about 70% SOC and manually kick off a charge cycle as soon as I get to the boat so by the time I've got all my crap aboard, the covers off the sails, and all the other pre-flight activities done the batteries are topped and ready to go. 

On the plus side, for the same effective capacity bank it'll be ~1/3 the size and weight and will accept at least a C/2 charge rate (e.g. 200A max acceptance for a 400Ah bank) right up to about 95% SOC. If your charging system can do that, you can go from flat to full in about 2.5 hours, including the time for top balancing. On the discharge side, you can get rated capacity even at 1C draw (e.g. 400A from a 400Ah bank) and you can go all the way down to 10% SOC with no ill effects. Finally, you can expect 2000-5000 charge cycles, depending on how much you baby them, which is an order of magnitude better than lead acid.

Bottom line, you need to put a lot more time, money, and effort into them up-front but once they're in and your charging system configured and upgraded as necessary, they're far less trouble than flooded lead acid.

If you want to dive deeper, just PM me. I'd be happy to talk more and I can send you a presentation on this that I put together for a local sailing club if you're interested. 

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Couldn't you build an enclosure for the 105's that wouldn't allow acid to escape into the rest of the boat?

No.

The requirement for sealed (AGM/gel) batteries was a consequence of the Sydney to Hobart disaster where the race post mortem determined that many vessels were in more serious peril because of loss of electrical power due to electrolyte spills after a knockdown.  I'm not sure whether the problem was thought to be battery failure due to electrolyte starvation or terminal/cable failure due to corrosion, but the requirements imposed in the wake of the race are clear.

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30 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

No.

The requirement for sealed (AGM/gel) batteries was a consequence of the Sydney to Hobart disaster where the race post mortem determined that many vessels were in more serious peril because of loss of electrical power due to electrolyte spills after a knockdown.  I'm not sure whether the problem was thought to be battery failure due to electrolyte starvation or terminal/cable failure due to corrosion, but the requirements imposed in the wake of the race are clear.

Thanks, I guess that is a good idea. I trust 105's in many respects but the electrolyte spill is a no go.I wonder if you could build a gimbaled battery box that would let them pivot around in a capsized vessel and not spill if they would approve that? Just a crazy thought. 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Thanks, I guess that is a good idea. I trust 105's in many respects but the electrolyte spill is a no go.I wonder if you could build a gimbaled battery box that would let them pivot around in a capsized vessel and not spill if they would approve that? Just a crazy thought. 

At that point it would be cheaper to put in AGM's and replace them every year.

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A couple of afternoons of good work (translation: somebody else works, I make useful comments and fetch tools) and the Frankenstein Torqeedo 1003 lives again.  New cable from the battery to the engine, new prop shaft end pod enclosure with new bearings, and some cautious work getting the motor housing pod back together without pinching any O-rings.  Tank tested it, then used it in the ocean today.  So far, so good.  Tearing down and reassembling the aluminum sections that hold the shaft and attach to the boat’s outboard bracket, it’s pretty clear that we’re going to need to replace the big castings at some point—lots of corrosion.  I think they are the only original parts of the Frankenstein Torqeedo left. 

Was using a Honda 2.3 air-cooled kicker for the last week or so while the Torqeedo was down.  Interesting comparison.  The Honda has vastly more power—at the low rpms needed to kick in the centrifugal clutch, it moves my boat at the same speed as half throttle on the Torqeedo.  The Torqeedo has reverse gear, which I love, but has even less oomph in reverse.  The Honda, once I got the knack of starting it, was easy to use.  A little quieter than my old Tohatsu two-stroke 3.5, much noisier than a modern 4 stroke with water cooling.

So, for on and off the dock in protected water, with home PV electric power to recharge the battery, the Torqeedo is great.  For any sort of longer motoring, especially if there was a breeze, I will get out the Honda.

My 2 cents.

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7 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

A couple of afternoons of good work (translation: somebody else works, I make useful comments and fetch tools) and the Frankenstein Torqeedo 1003 lives again.  New cable from the battery to the engine, new prop shaft end pod enclosure with new bearings, and some cautious work getting the motor housing pod back together without pinching any O-rings.  Tank tested it, then used it in the ocean today.  So far, so good.  Tearing down and reassembling the aluminum sections that hold the shaft and attach to the boat’s outboard bracket, it’s pretty clear that we’re going to need to replace the big castings at some point—lots of corrosion.  I think they are the only original parts of the Frankenstein Torqeedo left. 

Was using a Honda 2.3 air-cooled kicker for the last week or so while the Torqeedo was down.  Interesting comparison.  The Honda has vastly more power—at the low rpms needed to kick in the centrifugal clutch, it moves my boat at the same speed as half throttle on the Torqeedo.  The Torqeedo has reverse gear, which I love, but has even less oomph in reverse.  The Honda, once I got the knack of starting it, was easy to use.  A little quieter than my old Tohatsu two-stroke 3.5, much noisier than a modern 4 stroke with water cooling.

So, for on and off the dock in protected water, with home PV electric power to recharge the battery, the Torqeedo is great.  For any sort of longer motoring, especially if there was a breeze, I will get out the Honda.

My 2 cents.

I agree...

 

it is horses for courses

 

I love the quiet of the electrics - but there are times when they will not cut the mustard - that is when you get the Honda and the petrol can out

 

D

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10 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

So, for on and off the dock in protected water, with home PV electric power to recharge the battery, the Torqeedo is great.  For any sort of longer motoring, especially if there was a breeze, I will get out the Honda.

I think you're spot on. I sail on a lake and the Torqeedo has been perfect for me. I used to have a Honda 2 HP, and I agree, it had more power than the Toorqeedo.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I got my EPCarry motor on Friday and tried it out yesterday.  Even though it's a low power motor (~230W) it's plenty for my 10 foot dinghy and pushes it to hull speed in calm conditions.  We also motored up half of the length of our marina into a roughly 15 knot headwind yesterday and got 2.5 knots.  That's better than I'd do with my oars, so I'm happy.  The name matches what the product does "electric paddle".

The big prop (it's a 13x9 low chord 2 blade model airplane prop) has a lot of thrust even at low RPMs.  

The company has been good to work with.  They had some production delays but rushed me a motor since I have a trip coming up.  I'm very happy about a company that let me supply my own battery and is interested in talking tech with me.  I ended up with a 720wh pack which will give me about 3 hours runtime at full throttle.

I'm also impressed with the build quality and the aspects of the engineering that I can see.  It seems like they've done a good job of selecting materials and machine and finish work.

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After 6 pages of this thread and reading @Bull City's thread on e-pods, I've decided to embark and a moderately expensive experiment.

Torqueedos are fussy and fragile.  The Spirits seem better. The Electric Paddle seems to be a great product, incredibly lightweight and simple and it seems to have excellent support. However, I've decided that I want more range than the Electric Paddle can offer and I'm just not enamored with the plastic propellers and fragile gearing.  All of these solutions cost around $1600.  The Electric Paddle has a 230 watt-hour battery.

I already own a trolling motor. I can buy 30lb. thrust trolling motors off Craigslist all day long for less than $100. They often have metal props. 30lbs. of thrust turns my Dyer Dinghy into a rocket. I can buy a 680 watt-hour Lithium iron-phosphate battery designed specifically for trolling motors for $500, or 1/3 the price of any of the above solutions (includes charger):

https://dakotalithium.com/product/dakota-lithium-12v-54ah-deep-cycle-marine-trolling-motor-battery/

The tradeoff is that the combined trolling motor and battery will weigh around 30-40 lbs. instead of 21lbs. and they are 2 separate pieces that cannot be integrated. The upshot is that the watt-hours is far above the Electric Paddle or the Torqueedo Travel 1003. Even acknowledging that a trolling motor may be less efficient the range should be much greater than the other products.

I'll purchase the battery after the holiday rush, sometime in January. My Dyer Dhow needs a light, winter rehabilitation. I'll test it out in the spring and report back.

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

After 6 pages of this thread and reading @Bull City's thread on e-pods, I've decided to embark and a moderately expensive experiment.

Torqueedos are fussy and fragile.  The Spirits seem better. The Electric Paddle seems to be a great product, incredibly lightweight and simple and it seems to have excellent support. However, I've decided that I want more range than the Electric Paddle can offer and I'm just not enamored with the plastic propellers and fragile gearing.  All of these solutions cost around $1600.  The Electric Paddle has a 230 watt-hour battery.

I already own a trolling motor. I can buy 30lb. thrust trolling motors off Craigslist all day long for less than $100. They often have metal props. 30lbs. of thrust turns my Dyer Dinghy into a rocket. I can buy a 680 watt-hour Lithium iron-phosphate battery designed specifically for trolling motors for $500, or 1/3 the price of any of the above solutions (includes charger):

https://dakotalithium.com/product/dakota-lithium-12v-54ah-deep-cycle-marine-trolling-motor-battery/

The tradeoff is that the combined trolling motor and battery will weigh around 30-40 lbs. instead of 21lbs. and they are 2 separate pieces that cannot be integrated. The upshot is that the watt-hours is far above the Electric Paddle or the Torqueedo Travel 1003. Even acknowledging that a trolling motor may be less efficient the range should be much greater than the other products.

I'll purchase the battery after the holiday rush, sometime in January. My Dyer Dhow needs a light, winter rehabilitation. I'll test it out in the spring and report back.

thanks for the link.  i like their power box products.   a small pet peave that shows up there and other palces...what good is a 1 amp usb anymore? shouldn't every usb port be capable of >2 amps?

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1 hour ago, eric1207 said:

The pic of the Dakota power box shows 2 usb ports;  1 amp and 2.1 amp.

yes it does but why would they bother with the 1 amp?  why not put two 2.1's or two 2.4s?  1 amp charges go back to the flip phone device days, no?  all smart phones, tablets and such really need 2 plus amps to charge with any degree of urgency

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5 minutes ago, chester said:

yes it does but why would they bother with the 1 amp?  why not put two 2.1's or two 2.4s?  1 amp charges go back to the flip phone device days, no?  all smart phones, tablets and such really need 2 plus amps to charge with any degree of urgency

 

You have to watch your small gizmo chargers,...

Throughout the house and boat are slow chargers. I put a couple of dual output USB cigarette lighter plugs that put out 2.4 A even while charging from both plugs. Much faster. 

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On 12/15/2020 at 8:46 AM, Ajax said:

The tradeoff is that the combined trolling motor and battery will weigh around 30-40 lbs. instead of 21lbs. and they are 2 separate pieces that cannot be integrated. The upshot is that the watt-hours is far above the Electric Paddle or the Torqueedo Travel 1003. Even acknowledging that a trolling motor may be less efficient the range should be much greater than the other products.

Manufacturers of electric outboards, and trolling motors, are reluctant to publish actual specifications because it makes it clear how little power these machines produce.  We are left to utilize math and such information as is available.

EP Carry

This motor utilizes a 230 watt-hour battery and has a battery life of one hour.  Based on industry averages and conversions, we can conclude that:

  • It develops approximately 1/4 horsepower (230 wh / 1h / 746 w/hp * .9 efficiency factor)
  • It produces approximately 20 pounds thrust.  (trolling motors and electric outboards produce about 1 lb thrust per 12 watts input regardless of brand or style)

Trolling motor with 30# thrust

  • Will draw 30 amps at 12 volts.  By the numbers, you'll get one hour and 48 minutes of runtime (54 ah / 30 amps converted to hours and minutes) at WOT
  • These develop a little over 1/3 horsepower.  (12 * 30 / 746 * .9  = .43)

I like the Powerpole SB50 connectors for small outboards, trolling motors, batteries, chargers, etc.  Much handier than screw terminals and safer.  https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-connectors-sb50-50amp.  You will need the crimping tool, which is $20.  https://powerwerx.com/powerpole-crimping-tool-sb-50-75

On the battery end of things you need to make a short pigtail as the connector can't be installed without one.  I use a MRBF fuse at the battery but I have group 24 FLAs.  You might choose something smaller (like this: https://powerwerx.com/maxi-inline-fuse-holder-8-gauge-red).

By using connectors you can leave the battery in the boat, which makes it more practical to secure it in place so it doesn't become a missile if you get waked or a curious cultural artifact if you capsize.

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On 12/15/2020 at 6:46 AM, Ajax said:

However, I've decided that I want more range than the Electric Paddle can offer and I'm just not enamored with the plastic propellers and fragile gearing. 

EP Carry will sell the motor without a battery if you want to provide your own.  I'm using a 720W (36V/20AH) battery with mine and saved the cost of the battery (about $500-$600) by using batteries that I already had on hand.  I have them installed in a sub-$50 waterproof box.  EPCarry use a safer but more expensive LFP battery design, I'm using a more conventional lithium package made by AllCell with Panasonic battery cells that was intended for lightweight electric vehicles.

2 hours ago, 2airishuman said:

It produces approximately 20 pounds thrust.  (trolling motors and electric outboards produce about 1 lb thrust per 12 watts input regardless of brand or style)

This assumes that all propellers are equally efficient.  The prop designs vary greatly across these motors and I don't think that is a safe assumption.

My request to @Ajax is to setup your motor with a simple meter so that we can measure boat speed in flat water at various wattage outputs.  I'm using this cheap meter with my EP Carry: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SPB8B6L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1.  It can be plugged in inline with Anderson powerpole connectors and is easy to remove when I don't want it (it isn't waterproof).  I found this useful to get an idea of battery usage on my excursions and keep it plugged in but hidden away in the battery box when going on long trips -- I can pop open the box for a moment if I want to check my remaining battery life.

I think that a plot of boat speed to motor watts at 50w increments across as many motors as possible will be really valuable.  My Gig Harbor Navigator 10 dinghy is similar enough to your Dyer Dhow to provide interesting results.  Besides the EP Carry I will be able to do this for a Torqueedo 1003C.  In the pages of threads on electric outboards no one has provided this type of data.  It will also finally answer the questions of of how valuable is any motor output above the 230W on the EP Carry and how valuable is a high efficiency motor controller (like the one in the EP Carry and Torqeedo) vs the inefficient ones found in trolling motors.

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1 hour ago, Alex W said:

EP Carry will sell the motor without a battery if you want to provide your own.  I'm using a 720W (36V/20AH) battery with mine and saved the cost of the battery (about $500-$600) by using batteries that I already had on hand.  I have them installed in a sub-$50 waterproof box.  EPCarry use a safer but more expensive LFP battery design, I'm using a more conventional lithium package made by AllCell with Panasonic battery cells that was intended for lightweight electric vehicles.

This assumes that all propellers are equally efficient.  The prop designs vary greatly across these motors and I don't think that is a safe assumption.

My request to @Ajax is to setup your motor with a simple meter so that we can measure boat speed in flat water at various wattage outputs.  I'm using this cheap meter with my EP Carry: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SPB8B6L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1.  It can be plugged in inline with Anderson powerpole connectors and is easy to remove when I don't want it (it isn't waterproof).  I found this useful to get an idea of battery usage on my excursions and keep it plugged in but hidden away in the battery box when going on long trips -- I can pop open the box for a moment if I want to check my remaining battery life.

I think that a plot of boat speed to motor watts at 50w increments across as many motors as possible will be really valuable.  My Gig Harbor Navigator 10 dinghy is similar enough to your Dyer Dhow to provide interesting results.  Besides the EP Carry I will be able to do this for a Torqueedo 1003C.  In the pages of threads on electric outboards no one has provided this type of data.  It will also finally answer the questions of of how valuable is any motor output above the 230W on the EP Carry and how valuable is a high efficiency motor controller (like the one in the EP Carry and Torqeedo) vs the inefficient ones found in trolling motors.

I'll do it. This could be fun. My version of Panope's anchor vlog.

However, no matter how you slice it, this is going to cost my only 1/3 the price of an EP carry. I already own the trolling motor. The battery I'm buying includes a charger. Some Anderson connectors and I'm on my way. Even if my trolling motor proves less efficient by some significant degree, it will still be less expensive unless I ruin the battery somehow or burn up a string of cheap trolling motors.

The main tradeoff is that my arrangement will be double the weight of an EP carry and more of hassle because it's 2 separate components. For the sake of science and for knowing the true costs, I still want to do the study.

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EPCarry is also so components.  They tout this as an advantage because it is easier to move. I like it because I use the battery box is a moving seat in my dinghy when motoring, it lets me trim the boat. 

I think it is useful to get reasonably accurate data for these motor options.  Then everyone can decide on the best solution for their needs. Right now there aren’t any consistent metrics. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

There is some cool electric inboard stuff going on here with a lot of data and more coming:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=108411

The poster here is an EV engineer focused primarily on e-bikes. He put a load cell on the motor mount so that he can also measure actual prop efficiency in real-time (in addition to motor efficiency). He is using standard (not LFP) lithium batteries.  
 

What is cool is that he is using a 4kg e-bike motor on a Cal 25 and has an 80km motoring range. 

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Reviving this thread...

We just moved our trawler to a mooring, and have a dinghy slip at a nearby marina with our sailboat.  When we got our 10'4" Achilles RIB last year we put a 2.5hp Suzuki outboard on it to get ourselves going.  It was used only when cruising - a few weeks at time, a few times a year, typically just going from ship to shore (1/4 mile).  Noisy but did fine for this limited use.  

Now I'll be using the dinghy more regularly - motoring ~1 mile to get to the vessel, with a 5mph restriction almost the whole way (~10-15 min trip).   For this duration the noise is a bit tedious.  The obvious solution is to get a 10-15hp EFI outboard for about $2.5k, but given my speed restrictions I think an e-propulsion Spirit 1.0 might be just the thing.  I have 700W of solar so charging should be easy & no gasoline hazards.  And it's like 40lbs vs 100lbs for the outboard, which is a big bonus - I use a dinghy sling, pulling the dinghy up by hand to vertical on my swim, step, which I don't think I could do with an outboard that big.  

https://www.rjnautical.com/epropulsion/epropulsion-electric-outboards-spirit-1-0-plus-shortshaft/

This seems significantly better than the Torqueedo.  Prettier too.  1.25kWh = full throttle 1kW for 1.25hr; I'd be able to make a half dozen or more round trips on a single charge at 1/2 throttle.   Anyone want to talk me out of it?  

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On 1/14/2021 at 3:10 AM, Alex W said:

There is some cool electric inboard stuff going on here with a lot of data and more coming:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=108411

The poster here is an EV engineer focused primarily on e-bikes. He put a load cell on the motor mount so that he can also measure actual prop efficiency in real-time (in addition to motor efficiency). He is using standard (not LFP) lithium batteries.  
 

What is cool is that he is using a 4kg e-bike motor on a Cal 25 and has an 80km motoring range. 

 

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4 hours ago, dylan winter said:

 

That's at Fisherman's Wharf, Victoria harbour. I have a vague memory of seeing that boat somewhere. He's going to need a lot more power to cope with the tidal currents here. 

He's also going to need to cover some holes in the boat...

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It is possible

 to self rescue a Dyer Dink.  You have to get in the water and rock it violently from side to side and the remount via the transom.   Watch some old Red Cross canoe self rescue movies to get a feel for it.  Good luck.

 

 

 

 

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On 3/1/2021 at 3:13 PM, socalrider said:

Reviving this thread...

We just moved our trawler to a mooring, and have a dinghy slip at a nearby marina with our sailboat.  When we got our 10'4" Achilles RIB last year we put a 2.5hp Suzuki outboard on it to get ourselves going.  It was used only when cruising - a few weeks at time, a few times a year, typically just going from ship to shore (1/4 mile).  Noisy but did fine for this limited use.  

Now I'll be using the dinghy more regularly - motoring ~1 mile to get to the vessel, with a 5mph restriction almost the whole way (~10-15 min trip).   For this duration the noise is a bit tedious.  The obvious solution is to get a 10-15hp EFI outboard for about $2.5k, but given my speed restrictions I think an e-propulsion Spirit 1.0 might be just the thing.  I have 700W of solar so charging should be easy & no gasoline hazards.  And it's like 40lbs vs 100lbs for the outboard, which is a big bonus - I use a dinghy sling, pulling the dinghy up by hand to vertical on my swim, step, which I don't think I could do with an outboard that big.  

https://www.rjnautical.com/epropulsion/epropulsion-electric-outboards-spirit-1-0-plus-shortshaft/

This seems significantly better than the Torqueedo.  Prettier too.  1.25kWh = full throttle 1kW for 1.25hr; I'd be able to make a half dozen or more round trips on a single charge at 1/2 throttle.   Anyone want to talk me out of it?  

Two areas of concern:

  • A mile each way is a longish way for the eProp.  I've never tried to charge mine with solar (I live with a lot less sun than you do) but I'd be a bit wary if you don't charge it fully between uses, considering that you have to get both out and back.  The battery drains pretty quickly at full throttle.  (But for what it's worth, my wife was looking over my shoulder while I was typing this and told me I was wrong and that we've gone that far while only taking down a small amount of battery life, so maybe I'm overly pessimistic.)
  • 5kt is pretty much full throttle for the Spirit - so if you have any serious tides to deal with, it may not be the best.

All that being said, I absolutely love ours, love the quiet, love the lack of maintenance, and am completely happy with the tradeoffs.  Also, I bought mine from RJ Nautical and had a great experience dealing with them, even after FedEx conspired to make it a lot harder to get the battery than it should have been after a truck journey across the country, so that's a mark in the plus column, too.

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44 minutes ago, ChrisJD said:

Two areas of concern:

  • A mile each way is a longish way for the eProp.  I've never tried to charge mine with solar (I live with a lot less sun than you do) but I'd be a bit wary if you don't charge it fully between uses, considering that you have to get both out and back.  The battery drains pretty quickly at full throttle.  (But for what it's worth, my wife was looking over my shoulder while I was typing this and told me I was wrong and that we've gone that far while only taking down a small amount of battery life, so maybe I'm overly pessimistic.)
  • 5kt is pretty much full throttle for the Spirit - so if you have any serious tides to deal with, it may not be the best.

All that being said, I absolutely love ours, love the quiet, love the lack of maintenance, and am completely happy with the tradeoffs.  Also, I bought mine from RJ Nautical and had a great experience dealing with them, even after FedEx conspired to make it a lot harder to get the battery than it should have been after a truck journey across the country, so that's a mark in the plus column, too.

Thanks, that’s really helpful. I just made the trip again with our Suzi 2.5 and recorded the data: 0.85nm each way, about 4kt avg speed. No tides here to speak of. 
 

When was yours made?  The new ones have a somewhat bigger battery and claim something like 13mi at 5.4kts and 30mi at 4.4. 
 

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on one after talking to the guys at RJ - glad you had a good experience. I’m going to drive up there and pick it up shortly; will report back. 

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I bought mine two years ago, so with the smaller battery. One thing I’ll note is that 100% power doesn’t get you all that much more speed than 50% power, and so you can add a lot of range by backing off the throttle a bit. Whether those speed numbers hold up for you will probably depend a lot on conditions. Also, I have an air floor dink, and it’s possible that a RIB, with a firmer hull shape, might do a bit better than our air keel.

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29 minutes ago, ChrisJD said:

I bought mine two years ago, so with the smaller battery. One thing I’ll note is that 100% power doesn’t get you all that much more speed than 50% power, and so you can add a lot of range by backing off the throttle a bit. Whether those speed numbers hold up for you will probably depend a lot on conditions. Also, I have an air floor dink, and it’s possible that a RIB, with a firmer hull shape, might do a bit better than our air keel.

Yeah, the power & range vs speed they publish (found it & attached below) really drives home the efficiency hit as you approaching and exceed hull speed.  I do suspect my RIB hull would be an advantage.  

image.thumb.png.2effee44f174dc420adba4c3d9bdbebf.png

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22 hours ago, socalrider said:

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on one after talking to the guys at RJ - glad you had a good experience. I’m going to drive up there and pick it up shortly; will report back. 

Let me know what you think about the quality. I'm close to pulling the trigger on an ePropulsion pod drive.

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53 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Let me know what you think about the quality. I'm close to pulling the trigger on an ePropulsion pod drive.

Will do!  I've gotta wait a couple weeks though - they are evidently selling like hotcakes.  Planning on a couple weeks cruising the islands here over spring break, so hopefully will get some good data by end of the month.  

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On 3/3/2021 at 9:46 PM, socalrider said:

Will do!  I've gotta wait a couple weeks though - they are evidently selling like hotcakes.  Planning on a couple weeks cruising the islands here over spring break, so hopefully will get some good data by end of the month.  

This what I am hearing from the dealer I'm working with on the pod drive. She's expecting a bunch of outboards, and they're all sold.

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