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14 hours ago, Lane Finley said:

Mai Tai (original name) was launched in 1963 at United Plastics in Washington.  She was one of six built as sloop/cutters.  She still has her original mast and in the picture below you can see the tang for the forestay and the tang below it for the staysail halyard block just below the second spreader brackets.  The original owner, who we bought Mai Tai from, never used a staysail and there was no deck fitting for one.  As we intended to use her offshore, we added a deck fitting that ties into the forward bulkhead at the chain locker.  She balances beautifully with a triple reefed main and staysail in anything over 30 knots.  As you can see, we use hank on sails so changing headsails is easy.  When we purchased Mai Tai, we did a major refit, which included taking out the original interior and building in a more cruising friendly interior suited to a crew of two.  So far we have sailed her to Alaska, down the coast of the Americas as far south as Valparaiso, Chile, across the Pacific through most of the South Pacific Islands and down to New Zealand.  While in NZ we did several passages back to the tropics and also sailed her around New Zealand, through Fjordland National Park and down to Stewart Island in the Southern Ocean.  We have spent the last 3 years cruising in SE Asia and will set sail across the Indian Ocean in a few weeks.

Mai Tai has proven time after time what a remarkable boat she is in every sort of weather.  A few years ago I added a hard top to give us more protection in the cockpit.  It has been a fantastic addition and has changed our cruising life.  We hope that our hard top has not ruined the beautiful lines of the Annapolis 44.  Your opinion is important to us.

 

 

Mai Tai Sailing.jpg

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2.28 MB · 3 downloads

The boat looks great :D

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23 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

:o (initial reaction)

:blink: (thinking about the diesel fumes from the tanks)

Hope y'all make it all the way--that would be quite an accomplishment.

Also curious about yours being cutter-rigged. I thought the Annapolis 44s were sloops. Do you have a permanent mini-stay rigged and only fly a #4 off the forestay? Or do you have the forestaysail with wire luff that we carried on the NA yawls and hoisted when needed?

What is the reference for the diesel issue ?

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Lane Finley, Looks great. I think the boat looks better sloop rigged personally, and I am amazed at the miles you've put under the keel.

The yawls (we have the derelict Vigilant still 'rotting' away, & as Jimmy mentioned in his post a couple of the white USCG yawls here) often drop the mizzen unless reaching, although they can fly the mizzen staysail in Non-spin racing. The USCG yawls are active, Pax River Sail club uses them primarily as training boats the crews seem to rotate a lot, and it is great to see them out quite frequently. They are using large old sails still with the USCG designation, so probably still rigged as they were raced by USCG & the Naval Academy. Vigilant has not sailed in years unfortunately. 

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On 8/1/2019 at 10:09 AM, Ajax said:

I was 3 years old!  ^_^

punk

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was a guy used to post on here under OceanBien that has been a  coach for  the VOST team for many years. Not sure if he still lurks around in here or not, but he'd be a good source for info on all of the Academy boats. The current 44 is the Mark II.. I think they're just about to pull the trigger on a Mark III Navy 44 in the next year or so if they haven't already.  I bid on a few of the Mark 1 44s when they were auctioning them off thru GSA a few years ago. Wish I'd been able to snag one but they got bid way up outa my ball park. 

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My favorite was always Dandy when I sailed McMillan and Kennedy.  We won once, but didn't get invited back after we turned another boat (forget the name) into a sloop on a mis-timed duck.  (Sneaking pitchers of beer in over the fence and into the visiting team dorm probably didn't help our invitational status.  Neither did waking up the Duke football team or our skipper pitching a tent on the lawn for himself and his girlfriend.  They had rules, apparently.)

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

What is the reference for the diesel issue ?

It was a famous problem on the Academy yawls, one which contributed to more than a few cases of sea sickness on the overnight and multi-day races.

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3 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

Lane Finley, Looks great. I think the boat looks better sloop rigged personally, and I am amazed at the miles you've put under the keel.

The yawls (we have the derelict Vigilant still 'rotting' away...Vigilant has not sailed in years unfortunately. 

Wooden-hull Vigilant?

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Lane, I can totally see it, now that I've read that article and your reply. I especially appreciate the flexibility the rig gives for headsail changes on the fly. Some of my worst experiences on the foredeck involved dropping the #1 Genoa in order to hoist a #2 (or even #3) in strong winds and building seas. Even with a safety harness on, that was awfully uncomfortable.

Did you add the running backstays, or were they already rigged on the boat when you got it?

All in all, I could see where the Luders fiberglass hull would be really good with the cutter rig, given how stiff it is--compared to the more flexible hulls on the Academy's modern racers, we used to kid that the yawls were built like dump trucks, not sports cars. That and the heavy keel greatly reduced the pucker factor in heavy weather in the open ocean.

Roller furling for headsails was just coming into being back when I was still active, and only in the cruising fleet, so I never had to deal with it or get to observe it. I found your insights about the impacts on sail aerodynamics and helm balance to be most informative.

This is only a guess, but do you use your 144% Genoa in the "slutter" rig? And when would you ever use the 135%? That latter sail seems unnecessary the way you use your cutter rig. Or is it the "heavier air, narrow channel, close-hauled" sail?

Next time you have the asym flying, please take a photo and post it--that's a spinnaker cut with which I'm not familiar, and I'd like to see how it's rigged and how it shapes when it's flying.

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

My favorite was always Dandy when I sailed McMillan and Kennedy.  We won once, but didn't get invited back after we turned another boat (forget the name) into a sloop on a mis-timed duck.  (Sneaking pitchers of beer in over the fence and into the visiting team dorm probably didn't help our invitational status.  Neither did waking up the Duke football team or our skipper pitching a tent on the lawn for himself and his girlfriend.  They had rules, apparently.)

What years and what school did you represent?

And yes, there were rules. Rules, rules, rules, and more rules.

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I've done a few trans ocean miles on a cutter, both racing and cruising/passagemaking.  She had 100% and 150% staysails which was really versatile.  When cruising it was easier to change staysails rather than the Yankee, and the 150 was a good light air sail.  In combination with a spinnaker, it was also a great sail on a reach to add a little more power.  I'd probably go for a 100 and 150 staysail combo with a ~100% Yankee on a furler, rather than investing in a larger overlap Yankee.

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18 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

What years and what school did you represent?

And yes, there were rules. Rules, rules, rules, and more rules.

Cornell in the late 60's.  And my memory has definitely faded on many of the details.  But having to placate the Duke offensive line at 1:00am and helping quickly pack up our skipper's tent and hustling him and his girlfriend off-campus at dawn is still crystal clear.   Not a lot of sleep that night.  But good times.   

Why the NA thought it was a good idea to hand over the 44s to college kids for buoy racing, I have no idea.  

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25 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

  

Why the NA thought it was a good idea to hand over the 44s to college kids for buoy racing, I have no idea.  

well, they still do it. So they didn't learn their lesson from you lot!

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20 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

What years and what school did you represent?

And yes, there were rules. Rules, rules, rules, and more rules.

Can't add anything to the 44 discussion, but I remember heading out to the Trux regatta from a midwest school in the 80's with a half barrel of beer in the back of our 12 passenger van.  Covered up with a jacket and a hat to appear as a sleeping crew.  It became empty sometime during the regatta while on the Academy grounds.  Did not get caught. 

We did get some coeds in a bit of trouble on the Notre Dame campus for another regatta, when still in their dorm after curfew or whatever the rule was called....

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7 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

NO, I am pretty sure this one is the plastic Vigilant.

If by plastic you mean fiberglass, then that's probably the boat I raced in the Annapolis-Newport back in 1975.

I'd ask for a photo, but it would probably only depress me...

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Cornell in the late 60's.  And my memory has definitely faded on many of the details.  But having to placate the Duke offensive line at 1:00am and helping quickly pack up our skipper's tent and hustling him and his girlfriend off-campus at dawn is still crystal clear.   Not a lot of sleep that night.  But good times.   

Why the NA thought it was a good idea to hand over the 44s to college kids for buoy racing, I have no idea.  

We were college kids, and we raced them that way all the time. As for the historical context, the 1960s was right after the fiberglass yawls replaced the old wooden ones, and the Academy and Sailing Squadron were putting some money into the USNA intercollegiate sailing program in order to raise our profile. The Kennedy and Mac Cup events were all part of the strategic plan.

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1 hour ago, WillUSNA78 said:

If by plastic you mean fiberglass, then that's probably the boat I raced in the Annapolis-Newport back in 1975.

I'd ask for a photo, but it would probably only depress me...

I'll try to leave out the depressing parts. When Pax River Sailing was sailing Alert and Vigilant regularly, they looked great!

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1 hour ago, WillUSNA78 said:

We were college kids, and we raced them that way all the time. As for the historical context, the 1960s was right after the fiberglass yawls replaced the old wooden ones, and the Academy and Sailing Squadron were putting some money into the USNA intercollegiate sailing program in order to raise our profile. The Kennedy and Mac Cup events were all part of the strategic plan.

What was the timing of the wood to glass boats.  I recall our mizzen removal effort was on a wooden boat, but I did one event at least in the glass ones.  

I also seem to recall that the boat was faster without the mizzen.  

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On 4/9/2021 at 6:17 AM, WillUSNA78 said:

Lane, I can totally see it, now that I've read that article and your reply. I especially appreciate the flexibility the rig gives for headsail changes on the fly. Some of my worst experiences on the foredeck involved dropping the #1 Genoa in order to hoist a #2 (or even #3) in strong winds and building seas. Even with a safety harness on, that was awfully uncomfortable.

Did you add the running backstays, or were they already rigged on the boat when you got it?

All in all, I could see where the Luders fiberglass hull would be really good with the cutter rig, given how stiff it is--compared to the more flexible hulls on the Academy's modern racers, we used to kid that the yawls were built like dump trucks, not sports cars. That and the heavy keel greatly reduced the pucker factor in heavy weather in the open ocean.

Roller furling for headsails was just coming into being back when I was still active, and only in the cruising fleet, so I never had to deal with it or get to observe it. I found your insights about the impacts on sail aerodynamics and helm balance to be most informative.

This is only a guess, but do you use your 144% Genoa in the "slutter" rig? And when would you ever use the 135%? That latter sail seems unnecessary the way you use your cutter rig. Or is it the "heavier air, narrow channel, close-hauled" sail?

Next time you have the asym flying, please take a photo and post it--that's a spinnaker cut with which I'm not familiar, and I'd like to see how it's rigged and how it shapes when it's flying.

Hi Will - have a look at my youtube site, there are several videos of Mai Tai under sail and one of them has the asymmetrical flying.  Just type in "lane finley" in the youtube search.  Cheers

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16 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

I'll try to leave out the depressing parts. When Pax River Sailing was sailing Alert and Vigilant regularly, they looked great!

Nevermind, it was pretty depressing. I couldn't find any good angles that weren't.

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1 hour ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

Nevermind, it was pretty depressing. I couldn't find any good angles that weren't.

Last time I was aboard Vigilant, it was pretty depressing. Keep in mind, the interiors were always “industrial training vessel” in fit and finish so takes a buncH of TLC to put into Bristol condition. Not the forte of an MWR sailing club. 
 

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 6:09 PM, Left Shift said:

What was the timing of the wood to glass boats.  I recall our mizzen removal effort was on a wooden boat, but I did one event at least in the glass ones.  

I also seem to recall that the boat was faster without the mizzen.  

Early to mid 60s--I don't think it happened all in one season, if I remember correctly.

We rarely (if ever) used the mizzen when racing--it was more of a helm balance tool on certain points of sail abaft the beam on long(er) legs, usually while cruising. I suppose that some used it on the downwind when not wanting to fly a chute (not every Sailing Squadron skipper was comfortable with doing that).

I'm not sure why the Academy was so in love with that sail plan, and of course it was ditched when the fiberglass yawls were replaced.

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On 4/10/2021 at 6:05 AM, Lane Finley said:

Hi Will - have a look at my youtube site, there are several videos of Mai Tai under sail and one of them has the asymmetrical flying.  Just type in "lane finley" in the youtube search.  Cheers

Done!

Where is the tack tacked down, exactly?

What's the theory on using only the asym, and not using the main?

I also checked out some of the other videos for other camera angles. Nice main boom--definitely an improvement over the big, heavy wooden boom that I had to duck under (I'm 6' 2") when I was trimming headsails in the cockpit on the Academy yawls.

On the "Heavy weather sailing" video, I finally spotted the running backstay (blue line). What was the approximate wind speed that day? I see the main has one(?) reef, and it looks like you're running with just the staysail, no Yankee?

In the "Reach for the sea" video, I don't see the runner. Was that a light air day? Is there a minimum wind speed that warrants rigging the runner?

It's interesting how many of the privately-owned yawls and Annapolis 44s have the same red/white/blue paint scheme as the Academy yawls did back in the day (and as the sloops do to this day, I think).

Thanks, Lane

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1 hour ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Early to mid 60s--I don't think it happened all in one season, if I remember correctly.

We rarely (if ever) used the mizzen when racing--it was more of a helm balance tool on certain points of sail abaft the beam on long(er) legs, usually while cruising. I suppose that some used it on the downwind when not wanting to fly a chute (not every Sailing Squadron skipper was comfortable with doing that).

I'm not sure why the Academy was so in love with that sail plan, and of course it was ditched when the fiberglass yawls were replaced.

I remember it a little differently.  Certainly upwind, we didn't use the mizzen at all.  Downwind, even on shorter legs, it was easy to pull the mizzen up, then douse it again when rounding to go back up wind.  Once off the wind, especially on a distance race, or ocean race, we'd not only use the mizzen, but also the mizzen staysail as well as a Staysail forward.  If deep enough off the wind, we'd fly the mizzen spinnaker (yep, we had them!).  There was nothing like trucking downwind on a broad reach with 5 sails up!

Couldn't find a pic of a Navy Yawl with all sails flying, but here are a couple of other yawls flying all the rags:

IMG_5756.PNG

Mizzen Staysail Designs - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

 

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2 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Early to mid 60s--I don't think it happened all in one season, if I remember correctly.

We rarely (if ever) used the mizzen when racing--it was more of a helm balance tool on certain points of sail abaft the beam on long(er) legs, usually while cruising. I suppose that some used it on the downwind when not wanting to fly a chute (not every Sailing Squadron skipper was comfortable with doing that).

I'm not sure why the Academy was so in love with that sail plan, and of course it was ditched when the fiberglass yawls were replaced.

The whole conservative world of off-shore sailing was in love with the yawl through the early 1900s.  The 60's were the tail end of the love affair.  The "wise old salts" went on and on about the "Jib and Jigger" heavy weather set-up.  Of course, when tying in a reef was an all-day affair and sails stretched like bungees, a yawl rig was a simple solution to avoid dealing with all that mess.  So it was somewhat rational.

And just like folks now think IOR boats were the pinnacle of sailing beauty, so people then thought the same about the CCA yawls, like the Concordia.  

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

The whole conservative world of off-shore sailing was in love with the yawl through the early 1900s.  The 60's were the tail end of the love affair.  The "wise old salts" went on and on about the "Jib and Jigger" heavy weather set-up.  Of course, when tying in a reef was an all-day affair and sails stretched like bungees, a yawl rig was a simple solution to avoid dealing with all that mess.  So it was somewhat rational.

And just like folks now think IOR boats were the pinnacle of sailing beauty, so people then thought the same about the CCA yawls, like the Concordia.  

Sorta...before we were able to engineer lighter weight rigs, and deep fin keels (or bulbed keels) rigs tended to be shorter to keep the COE of the sailplan lower.  Multiple masts allowed sail area to be spread "horizontally" vice vertically.  Then whn the CCA became the rating rule for racing in the US, mizzen staysail area was unrated.  As the mizzen itself was pretty small (thus a small "penalty"), and the staysail area free, it was a rig that took advantage of the rule.

Nothing wrong with being conservative off shore, especially in the early days (pre long range aviation rescue) when you really were largely on your own if you got in trouble...

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

And just like folks now think IOR boats were the pinnacle of sailing beauty, so people then thought the same about the CCA yawls, like the Concordia.  

Does anyone actually think IOR boats are beautiful? I feel like the nostalgia is similar to why 90s cars are gaining popularity - ugly as sin, but we have good memories of them.

I'll take CCA all the way - the last offshore rule that produced honest racer-cruisers, and good-looking ones at that.

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I do!  But I like CCA era boats, and MORC 30 footers too, as well as some of the early IMS boats.  I liked my 2003 J/109 looks.

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4 hours ago, Crash said:

I do!  But I like CCA era boats, and MORC 30 footers too, as well as some of the early IMS boats.  I liked my 2003 J/109 looks.

The biggest thing I can't get over with IOR boats is the aspect ratio of the main. I have an early MORC design, inspired by CCA boats of the 50s. Seems like MORC produced nicely-proportioned boats for its whole run.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Question...  I'm rebuilding the cockpit on my Luders, as she had been rebuilt in wood different from the factory plan, and rotted. 

I'm curious what the radius is on the rear corners of the cockpit, and how wide the traveler is? 

I've been doing some napkin sketches to see whether the mounting bolts would end up accessed behind the lazarette bulkhead, or with someone jammed into the cockpit locker.  

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Zach said:

Question...  I'm rebuilding the cockpit on my Luders, as she had been rebuilt in wood different from the factory plan, and rotted. 

I'm curious what the radius is on the rear corners of the cockpit, and how wide the traveler is? 

I've been doing some napkin sketches to see whether the mounting bolts would end up accessed behind the lazarette bulkhead, or with someone jammed into the cockpit locker. 

Are you talking about one of the 50s-era wooden Luders yawls?

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13 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Are you talking about one of the 50s-era wooden Luders yawls?

Nope, I've got a fiberglass Luders / Annapolis 44 rigged as a sloop that had the cockpit and deck replaced in plywood.  I'll take some pictures later on today, don't seem to have any handy of the back of the cockpit. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Zach said:

Nope, I've got a fiberglass Luders / Annapolis 44 rigged as a sloop that had the cockpit and deck replaced in plywood.  I'll take some pictures later on today, don't seem to have any handy of the back of the cockpit.

Huh. Any idea what happened to all the original fiberglass?

And am I understanding correctly that all the fiberglass topside was removed inboard of the hull and rebuilt with wood? So deck, deckhouse, and cockpit?

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4 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Huh. Any idea what happened to all the original fiberglass?

And am I understanding correctly that all the fiberglass topside was removed inboard of the hull and rebuilt with wood? So deck, deckhouse, and cockpit?

That's correct.  They kept most of the inner skin other than raising the camber of the deck house, and built it back like a wood deck.  Couple layers of 10 ounce boat cloth and paint...  I pulled all the rotten plywood out, went back with foam.  Deck and deck house are done, and I'm mostly through with the cockpit. That's why I'm curious about the dimensions they came out of the mold at the aft end.   

My plan was to put it together with a deck mounted traveler aft of the cockpit, but the more I've been crawling around the cockpit and lockers, the more it makes sense to build the aft end closer to stock and mount the traveler on the coaming.  It's a long way from the wheel, behind the coaming to a traveler for any kind of main sheet control, and there isn't enough real estate on the side decks to do a side deck mounted winch.     

IMG_6983.JPG

IMG_7031.JPG

IMG_9686.JPG

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The fiberglass deck and deckhouse were stiff enough to be self-supporting, if memory serves, with the forward and aft bulkheads providing additional support and lateral stiffness.

Did they add lateral wooden framing under the new deck and deckhouse? If so, what supported them at the hull?

Did they remove the original forward and aft bulkheads? If so, did they add new bulkheads in the same positions, or did they change the interior layout?

I'd be really curious to see interior photos.

As for the aft cockpit, I seem to recall being able sit down while on the helm, so there must have been a lateral storage locker there, with an aft combing with the main traveler either immediately forward or mounted on top of the combing. All that was aft of that was the mizzen mast and rigging.

I'm going to admit to having a weak memory of all those details, however, so I'm hoping that some of the other Academy sailing veterans from my era will chime in, hopefully with clearer memories.

Or someone with access to a fiberglass yawl could just post some photos (hint, hint).

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Cockpit coaming actually curved around and runs aft of mizzenmast mast.  Main traveler was forward of mizzenmast and yes, there was room for helmsman to sit forward of trav.  Mainsheet ran forward in boom up to mast, then down to cabin top and aft to a winch on starboard side of main companionway.  Main sheet trimmer usually sat/stood in companionway.  If needed trav adjustments, another crew was need aft of helm to adjust.  We typically had the guy playing role of tactician adjust the trav.  No we didn’t adjust it as often as is now done on modern race boats.

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Cockpit coaming actually curved around and runs aft of mizzenmast mast.  Main traveler was forward of mizzenmast and yes, there was room for helmsman to sit forward of trav.  Mainsheet ran forward in boom up to mast, then down to cabin top and aft to a winch on starboard side of main companionway.  Main sheet trimmer usually sat/stood in companionway.  If needed trav adjustments, another crew was need aft of helm to adjust.  We typically had the guy playing role of tactician adjust the trav.  No we didn’t adjust it as often as is now done on modern race boats.

I do remember how "stiff" the main traveller was, and what it took to move it. I don't think we used a hammer, but a winch handle, to make those adjustments. It was a far different proposition than the process on the Swan 48 or S&S 59 we had then--I know that the S&S had special lines and winches just for adjusting the traveller, and the Swan may have, too. I seem to recall spraying it with WD-40 (or something like that) during the Annapolis-Newport race so we could adjust it more easily for the long reach or close-haul legs with stronger winds (we were really into "sail shaping on that crew). Crash is right that it wasn't worth messing with during the short buoy races in the Bay.

Thanks for the memory refresher, Crash, including how to spell "coaming." I should have looked that up, because I was pretty sure it was wrong, but sometimes I just get lazy in my old age. :rolleyes:

That said, when I sailed the Academy yawls in the mid-70s, they had solid wood booms, so the main sheet must have been externally led forward (along the bottom of the boom?). Perhaps to a mid-boom block, down to a turning block on top of the deckhouse, then aft to the main winch? I don't recall the main sheet's running all the way to the mast and then back aft to the winch, I don't think. I really need to find my old photo albums from back then, and see what they show...

Edited by WillUSNA78
Memories are coming back slowly
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Will, I am warning you the pic will make you a bit sad, but it might help our other friend with the rebuild. Here is a pic I took of Vigilant a couple weeks ago...might have the perspective you need for the traveler.  If you need some more, and we can ignore the tires laying in the cockpit, and keep Will's spirits out of the toilet, the boat is just a few minutes away.

vigilant_cockpit20210409.jpg

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53 minutes ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

Will, I am warning you the pic will make you a bit sad, but it might help our other friend with the rebuild. Here is a pic I took of Vigilant a couple weeks ago...might have the perspective you need for the traveler.  If you need some more, and we can ignore the tires laying in the cockpit, and keep Will's spirits out of the toilet, the boat is just a few minutes away.

vigilant_cockpit20210409.jpg

Looks like my memory of mainsheet winch location was incorrect :rolleyes:

Its on the port side, over the port light...

but pic does show trav location forward of mizzenmast, and mainsheet being led up to boom and then forward...

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2 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

Will, I am warning you the pic will make you a bit sad, but it might help our other friend with the rebuild. Here is a pic I took of Vigilant a couple weeks ago...might have the perspective you need for the traveler.  If you need some more, and we can ignore the tires laying in the cockpit, and keep Will's spirits out of the toilet, the boat is just a few minutes away.

vigilant_cockpit20210409.jpg

Other than the aluminum boom, that's pretty much how I remember the yawls being in the 70s.

I see that Vigilant never got the companionway hatch replacement that I've seen on some of the others. Is the forward deckhouse hatch also still fiberglass?

I'm trying to remember how we used all the winches...

Thanks for the memories, Hike.

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Looks like my memory of mainsheet winch location was incorrect :rolleyes:

Its on the port side, over the port light...

but pic does show trav location forward of mizzenmast, and mainsheet being led up to boom and then forward...

There being two small winches on the deckhouse, just forward of the cockpit (port and starboard), my recollection is that it was a matter of crew preference as to which one was reserved for the main sheet and which one for the spinnaker pole bridle. My gut says that I was used to trimming the main from the starboard winch, but I won't swear to that or that it was consistent on every boat I crewed on (or even when I was a yawl skipper).

And it does show the mizzenmast inside the cockpit coaming, as you previously pointed out.

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Thanks for the picture!  I was curious about where the foot blocks were mounted originally. 

Do you guys know where the spinnaker blocks were mounted? 

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5 hours ago, Zach said:

Thanks for the picture!  I was curious about where the foot blocks were mounted originally. 

Do you guys know where the spinnaker blocks were mounted? 

Yep, it was shackled to the pin stop car just forward of the foot block in HB's pic.  You can see it better in this pic, hanging down over the side.

May be an image of 1 person

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Thanks for the pic! 

My boat has a stainless steel T-track that is mangled on one side.  Has that boat been upgraded to an aluminum harken setup? 

I'd be curious what load range the blocks are, as a starting point.  Wouldn't mind having some more modern hardware!  

 

 

 

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Have any of you pulled the rudder on one of these?  Curious what the procedure looks like...

I'm in the process of pulling mine to inspect, and having some difficulties.  I've got side play in the gudgeon, and want to extend the keyway in the rudder shaft for a future under-deck auto pilot. 

1.75 Rudder shaft comes into the rudder sickle and has a 1 1/2 nut. 

Gudgeon is a single piece, pintle isn't removable as it's a press fit into the sickle.

From what I gather, the rudder shaft goes upward in space far enough to clear the threads, the rudder slides aft and down following the gudgeon slot.

I played with a 3/4 screw jack blocked and chocked into the deadwood... burned a bottle of mapp gas over a few evenings of heat cycles, and the 1.75 shaft made that idea look like a tinker toy.  Just curious if the navy yard had a method, or a neat little press jig... before I get too creative...  grin.

 

rudder.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Zach--just want you to know you're not being ignored. I never removed the rudder nor seen it done. I'm guessing from the <crickets> that no one else in this discussion has, either. You might consider starting a new thread so that your question is seen by more forum members, rather than just the few who are following this really, really old thread.

Also consider reaching out to forum member Lane Finley via PM, as he has a lot of experience overhauling these hulls, and may have done just what you're trying.

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Thanks for the reply!  I'll reach out to Lane.

Did get it out over the weekend...  It put up a decent fight.  Did not need to dig a hole.

The rudder shaft took an OTC 13 ton 2 jaw puller and heating the shaft to 350 degrees with a 6 foot long cheater pipe before finally letting go.  Had to cut the fiberglass on the rudder back far enough to expose the shaft, and the top of the sickle to get the jaw puller on, and not burn the foam up.  Puller needed 7 inches of reach, and enough thread to push the shaft past the jaws.

The shaft is tapered and keyed.  The shaft has to be worked back up into the boat, until it just kisses the cockpit seat height, if you've got the top of the rudder cut so you are seeing the top of the sickle.  Shaft out, the whole rudder tilts down and slides out of the gudgeon slot.   

The top of the sickle wasn't cut perpendicular to the bore for the rudder shaft, so after loading it up with the jaw puller it twisted the sickle and cracked the glass on a few of the bolt holes that hold the sickle to the fiberglass/foam filled rudder blade.  Had some audible fun when loosening up the puller, and after getting the sickle off the blade, I've got some glass work to do. 

To get the gudgeon strap off the blade, the sickle has to be un-bolted from the rudder blade.  To remove that, the shaft would have to be out.  That puts a damper on glassing the sickle to the blade, which I'd like to do as the bottom paint doesn't like that seam.   

I stopped off a at a machinist friend yesterday to see about turning the current one piece gudgeon into a two piece, so that I can drop the rudder blade and shaft as a unit in the future.  His suggestion is a trip to a foundry and having one made.  That would take a bigger foot print than the current size as the current pattern doesn't have a wide enough web for a bolt hole. 

This afternoon I'm going to do a bit of exploratory grinding to see how much mat and filler is back there, as a new gudgeon is plan B.   

Plan A is to see if it's all mat and filler, to widen the 2 inch wide slot in the hull to 4 inch on both sides, with a 2 inch slot cut in the rudder below the pintle pin so that it's possible to drop the gudgeon, tilt the rudder hard over and slide the gudgeon past the rudder, so the rudder blade and shaft can be dropped as one piece.  As dropping the rudder and rudder shaft together, the gudgeon has to disappear, somehow, so that a hole can be dug half way to china, or a travel lift sling in the sky as the shaft is 64 inches long.     

Only wild card discovered is my boat doesn't have a rudder bearing in the rudder tube...  Others I've talked to have a cutlass bearing in there, but this shaft is cut with an unused keyway right about where that would reside.  That'll be a pondering for another day.  Though I suppose with a monel rudder shaft, and all bronze hardware the amount of work to go through to drop a rudder, to replace a rudder bearing might be a good reason to leave well enough alone and enjoy the grease port.            

 

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12 hours ago, Zach said:

Thanks for the reply!  I'll reach out to Lane.

Did get it out over the weekend...  It put up a decent fight.  Did not need to dig a hole.

The rudder shaft took an OTC 13 ton 2 jaw puller and heating the shaft to 350 degrees with a 6 foot long cheater pipe before finally letting go.  Had to cut the fiberglass on the rudder back far enough to expose the shaft, and the top of the sickle to get the jaw puller on, and not burn the foam up.  Puller needed 7 inches of reach, and enough thread to push the shaft past the jaws...           

Zack, you're exhausting me. Where in life did you pick up the skills to do a job like this?

And I thought that sanding and painting a hull was hard work...

Remind me: What inspired you to want to pull off the rudder to begin with?

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1 hour ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Zack, you're exhausting me. Where in life did you pick up the skills to do a job like this?

And I thought that sanding and painting a hull was hard work...

Remind me: What inspired you to want to pull off the rudder to begin with?

That is an understatement...  Sanding the transom counter with a hutchins inline the last few weekends, has kicked my ass.  Stripped her paint off last year, and someone had done a near gelcoat removal topsides with a decent size grinder.  So, fair, she wasn't... as it was an enamel under awlgrip job that aged in dog years after I bought her.

Made it back to 220 grit, but after 6 gallons of awlquick it's amazing how much shape they put into such a small area, the finer the finish the more round it gets.

The short and sweet of the rudder, is the rudder shaft was not keyed long enough to install a below decks auto pilot tiller arm. The keyway slot is barely long enough for the quadrant.  

I've got that on a want to have list, as she's above the 24k lb ledge of what a wheel pilot wants to run, and dead down wind is a bit of a handful, trying a wheel pilot would be a motoring in flat water only exercise.

Since the cockpit is out of her, as it was rebuilt in the past in plywood and I built a new coosa board foot well, and wood-free coamings.  Everything is easy to get to, and I wanted to inspect the rudder shaft before tabbing it all back together.  Never an easier time to stand up and work on things...

Skills wise, I started out life as a machinist apprentice, followed a boat to the beach and have been trying to quit boat building for the last 15 or so years after a couple dozen drums of resin doing cold molded work...  retired from other folks projects, but trying to do this one well enough that in 15 years there isn't anything to rot.

 

IMG_9782.JPG

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16 hours ago, Zach said:

The short and sweet of the rudder, is the rudder shaft was not keyed long enough to install a below decks auto pilot tiller arm. The keyway slot is barely long enough for the quadrant.  

I've got that on a want to have list, as she's above the 24k lb ledge of what a wheel pilot wants to run, and dead down wind is a bit of a handful, trying a wheel pilot would be a motoring in flat water only exercise.

So Lane has self-steering gear on his boat, I'm pretty sure--you definitely would benefit from asking him what he has, how he installed it, and would he choose this particular piece of gear again. He sails all over the Pacific (in NZ, last I talked with him), so he's definitely got the experience to know something about the topic.

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  • 1 month later...

Wow, it took me a while to read through this whole Navy 44 topic!  Awesome, I have been very very slowly restoring FEARLESS NA8. Looking at the pictures of Lane's mast I feel the pain.  I scrapped, sand blasted, rubbed, polished then sprayed mine with ceramic.  Nice thing is NO primer and it wears like iron.

Would love to see some old photos of when these boats were in service.

Cheers,

Roger

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By the way, I just picked up today some new Kenyon Gauges.  Yeah, I live in the past.  I found a marina that had a bunch of stuff in boxes covered with an inch of dust.  So the instruments should be a bad as new!  For $100 I got a depth transducers, speed transducer, depth gauge, wind gauge, some wire and an anemometer.  So good day.

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1 hour ago, fearless said:

Wow, it took me a while to read through this whole Navy 44 topic!  Awesome, I have been very very slowly restoring FEARLESS NA8. Looking at the pictures of Lane's mast I feel the pain.  I scrapped, sand blasted, rubbed, polished then sprayed mine with ceramic.  Nice thing is NO primer and it wears like iron.

Would love to see some old photos of when these boats were in service.

Cheers,

Roger

Wow--assuming that you've got the fiberglass Fearless, that's the boat I skippered my junior year at USNA. I wondered if it were still floating, after all of the above conversations.

Where in Indiana do you sail it?

Just out of curiosity, did you strip the hull paint? If so, did you find obvious signs of a fiberglass repair on the starboard rail, about 5-10' abaft the mast? (If you did, I have no idea how that got there... <_<).

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1 hour ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Wow--assuming that you've got the fiberglass Fearless, that's the boat I skippered my junior year at USNA. I wondered if it were still floating, after all of the above conversations.

Where in Indiana do you sail it?

Just out of curiosity, did you strip the hull paint? If so, did you find obvious signs of a fiberglass repair on the starboard rail, about 5-10' abaft the mast? (If you did, I have no idea how that got there... <_<).

Yeah, don't look to closely at the very pointy part of the bow either.  Though it was mostly just scraped paint.  The other guy didn't fare quite as well...:unsure:

Did mean my name was on the Port/Starboard Trophy at the old Marmadukes.  I was, at least, on Starboard... B) 

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Yes, she is fiberglass.  I am restoring her in a warehouse in South Bend.  In the shadow of the Golden Dome no less.  Yes I am finding many docking wounds.  There was a really nasty smash on the port side amidship rail that need a lot of attention.  I have taken her down to the glass and will repaint her.  There is not a thing on this boat I have not toiled over.

 

I have tried to load some photos but keep getting a -200 error.  Better then the ID 10 T error i usually get!

she will sail lake Michigan when I get her finished, or I will have a viking funeral there...

Swift is in Chicago in really bad shape if anyone wants a career project.

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scan0003.thumb.jpg.7e026e95b9dde346100cb2b9d54081a7.jpg

Here is Fearless next to the Calumet river in Chicago before she takes a ride to Indiana. The bottom has four coats of epoxy and one coat of bottom paint.  The sides have been stripped to the glass.

Now the green/red bow lights have been removed the whole deck has been stripped and that nasty patch on the rail amidship has been repaired. Main and mizzen masts have been repainted with ceramic.

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Zach, note the rudder on Fearless is the new style with the extra extension at the bottom.  Looks like yours has the older style that is rounds on the bottom.  Not sure why they did that.  Con only assume it gives more control.

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1 hour ago, fearless said:

Hey WillUSNA78 do you have any photos of Fearless from your time as skipper?  Would be grateful for some photos.

I may have, but they'll be deeply buried in boxes of photos, negatives, and slides in my storage room (which I intend to sort through and digitize any day now (yeah, I know better than to believe that, too). Unfortunately, retirement is almost as busy as my pre-retired days.

1 hour ago, fearless said:

Zach, note the rudder on Fearless is the new style with the extra extension at the bottom.  Looks like yours has the older style that is rounds on the bottom.  Not sure why they did that.  Con only assume it gives more control.

Interesting. I never saw Fearless out of the water, but I don't recall ever seeing a yawl during my Academy days that didn't have the rounded rudder.

Does anyone out there know whether this was an update made during the later USNA years (1980s?), or was this a common mod made by those who first bought the boats when they were sold off?

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22 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

I may have, but they'll be deeply buried in boxes of photos, negatives, and slides in my storage room (which I intend to sort through and digitize any day now (yeah, I know better than to believe that, too). Unfortunately, retirement is almost as busy as my pre-retired days.

Interesting. I never saw Fearless out of the water, but I don't recall ever seeing a yawl during my Academy days that didn't have the rounded rudder.

Does anyone out there know whether this was an update made during the later USNA years (1980s?), or was this a common mod made by those who first bought the boats when they were sold off?

By the time I was on the team, 79-83, my memory is that all the boats had the mod.  So they must have done them right in the late 70s, early 80s allowing for some mis-remembering...

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2 minutes ago, Crash said:

By the time I was on the team, 79-83, my memory is that all the boats had the mod.  So they must have done them right in the late 70s, early 80s allowing for some mis-remembering...

So right after my time on the boats (last sailed yawls in the fall of 1976).

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Fun fact: Fearless and Swift can be seen in one of Patrick Swayze's last TV drama.  In the 5th episode there is a shoot out in a south side Chicago boat yard.  Fearless is the back drop in one of the scenes.

Yeah, no one told me their had filmed.  So when I showed up and there were thousands of empty shell casing around my boat I shit myself!  Being that it is the south side of Chicago and those things can happen, and that I didn't know they were blanks, I really scratched my head.  Who were these idiots that couldn't hit the broad side of a boat at 5 paces?  Why do people have to mess with my head?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1354108/?ref_=ttep_ep5

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I hope the attached file shows up, has a photo of the two rudders from Chapter 8, Luders Yawls from Sail and Power by Henderson, 3rd ed 1979.  I didn't see anything in the chapter text about the rudder beyond what's in the photo caption, but didn't read too carefully.  If any of you yawl lovers want the whole chapter, PM me and I'll email the scan to you.  

Luders yawl rudder.pdf

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On 7/23/2021 at 4:25 PM, SwayingSlightly said:

Sail and Power by Henderson, 3rd ed 1979

Wow. I had completely forgotten about this book. I've never seen the third (1979) edition, so I never saw this photo before.

I just did a quick search on the publication history:

  • First edition - 1967 (The cover design is the one I remember having issued to me my plebe year.)
  • Second edition - 1968 (A different, photographic cover; I would have thought that this is what I would have received in 1974, but I don't recognize the cover; perhaps there were different printings of the 1968 edition for mids' textbooks and public sales?)
  • Third edition - 1979 (the one referenced by SwayingSlightly)
  • Fourth edition - 1991 (I can't find anything more recent than this one; I wonder what book replaced it?)

I found only paperback versions of the 1967 and 1968 editions available on the open market (that's what I used to own), while the 1979 and 1991 editions are available in hardback.

Anyway, I found a "very good" condition fourth edition on Amazon for $14, so nostalgia (and the hope that the "Luders Yawls" chapter from the 1979 edition is still in there) led me to buy it.

SwayingSlightly, thanks for bringing this part of my college days back to mind!

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On 7/23/2021 at 4:29 PM, SwayingSlightly said:

yawl rudders.JPG

One observation: It looks like the hull form to accommodate the prop was also enlarged with the modified rudder. These photos don't show the prop, but does anyone know whether the rudder mod included a larger prop? And if not, why the change to the hull?

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19 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

I think this one is Arctic Tern...just did a 40 miler in an SMSA Race this weekend. They are out almost every Wed night, but rarely fly the kite.

Any idea what the original USNA name was?

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Artic Tern was one of the four boats fiberglass versions ordered by USCGA. It was never a USNA boat. Look closely at the spin and you'll see sail number CGA 1

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20 minutes ago, Crash said:

Artic Tern was one of the four boats fiberglass versions ordered by USCGA. It was never a USNA boat. Look closely at the spin and you'll see sail number CGA 1

Oh. So CGA is still sailing the Luders yawls. I wouldn't have expected that.

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No, at some point around the time Navy went to the Mk II version of the Navy 44 (the sloops), the Coasties awarded Morris Yachts a contract to build "Leadership 44s."   Similiar to, but not the same as the Navy 44 MkII, they were very well built.

https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/leadership-44-sturdy-and-progressive/

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/new-boat-review-a-look-inside-the-new-leadership-44

 

Leadership 44:

Leadership 44 - USCG | Morris Yachts

 

Navy 44 Mk II:

092319 Offshore Sailing

 

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16 hours ago, WillUSNA78 said:

Oh. So CGA is still sailing the Luders yawls. I wouldn't have expected that.

The local Pax River MWR has two of the CGA yawls, I believe they acquired them to replace the 'retired' NA yawls Vigilant & Alert. One is Arctic Tern and one is Blue Goose. They usually race non-spin on Wed night beer cans, but one of them has been ramping up the crew for spin racing recently. It took them a long time to get it flying and I am sure it was not a pleasant upwind sail home, but it is good to see them doing some longer races. I can only guess the local MWR picked the CGA boats up because they were in better shape, but that is pure conjecture on my part.

Crash, thanks for the details on the newer CGA boats too.

 

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2 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

The local Pax River MWR has two of the CGA yawls, I believe they acquired them to replace the 'retired' NA yawls Vigilant & Alert. One is Arctic Tern and one is Blue Goose. They usually race non-spin on Wed night beer cans, but one of them has been ramping up the crew for spin racing recently. It took them a long time to get it flying and I am sure it was not a pleasant upwind sail home, but it is good to see them doing some longer races. I can only guess the local MWR picked the CGA boats up because they were in better shape, but that is pure conjecture on my part.

That explains things--thanks. May I assume that they're still using the CGA sail numbers because they can't afford to change and re-register them?

The photo you showed us of Vigilant didn't look all that bad, other than needing a good wash-down. What's wrong with it that has kept it in retired status? And if it's so bad that it can't be sold, why don't they have it hauled off for scrapping? There looks like a lot of usable hardware topside that could be put to better use.

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Will, not sure Vigilant's status. It is outside on a T-head and taken some damage from sitting. I know the marina owner, so I will ask. Anything is fixable of course..just depends how much work you want to do.  On the CGA boats, they have 93xxx sail numbers on the working sails. They do not use the kite very often and frankly, our club isn't worried about chasing them down to declare/change something like that. I am going to guess that they are still using the CGA sails because that is what they have aboard. It would not surprise me if the 93xxx PHRF number they were assigned were on the same sails..they probably removed the CGA-X and installed the PHRF number. They did Governor's Cup this past weekend and won their class!! 

https://yachtscoring.com/event_results_detail.cfm?Race_Number=1&eID=14627

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1 hour ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

Will, not sure Vigilant's status

Sigh...

You and fearless are getting me in the mood to make pilgrimage visits to my two old boats the next time I'm in MD or IL (or even close).

Yeah, it's an old retired guy thing. :rolleyes:

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