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OK...so I've nearly sobered up... and want to say a few things to the SA team that have followed the Voodoo story. Firstly  - Thank you for your support and input! From the outset I've put though

I was on shore for my live interview show, and then live with the ABC Grandstand radio for the start.  Channel 7 has full rights to all live vision - so there was really no point going on the wat

I have received dozen emails/private messages about my tracker for this year. I have updated to new Windy version and I hope it will work on boxing day https://gis.ee/sh/

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5 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

What’s the point in having a test to see if you can do some betting safely if failing to do so doesn’t stop you doing it.

I see your point but accidents do happen, the owner broke his leg a few races back should they be banned from racing again? 

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35 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

I see your point but accidents do happen, the owner broke his leg a few races back should they be banned from racing again? 

no just from racing the event that race was a qualifying race for unless they were able to tick the qualifying box in another way.

Honestly I'm just being an internet troll but...

Boat A does a qualifying race for Event B.

During the qualifying race a "major incident" occurs but boat A is still deemed to have qualified.

During event B an even more serious incident occurs and the Authorities are called in to investigate.

During their investigation the authorities find out about the first "incident".  

Who is going to be held responsible?

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50 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

no just from racing the event that race was a qualifying race for unless they were able to tick the qualifying box in another way.

Honestly I'm just being an internet troll but...

Boat A does a qualifying race for Event B.

During the qualifying race a "major incident" occurs but boat A is still deemed to have qualified.

During event B an even more serious incident occurs and the Authorities are called in to investigate.

During their investigation the authorities find out about the first "incident".  

Who is going to be held responsible?

If the CYCA did exclude them for an incident would they be any safer if they re run the qualifier (which doesn’t need to be a race) without incident & passed?

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33 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I really wonder what's the point of having to qualify when a boat and much of the crew did the previous years race. It makes sense for newbies but not for the maxi teams and boats like Komatsu Azzurro who enter year after year.

Newcomers get plenty of scrutiny. 

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8 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

If the CYCA did exclude them for an incident would they be any safer if they re run the qualifier (which doesn’t need to be a race) without incident & passed?

at least CYCA could say they'd set criteria and it was passed.  If you fail a drivers licence test it doesn't preclude you from trying again next week.

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cheersbookcoverpic-sm.thumb.jpg.b2bd8e1d7694ddb4ed98b4897b9f58aa.jpg

Grasping this concept of "qualifying.

Borrowing from some of my posts in the Route de Rhumb directed at tempering French Fan Boy dribble about the history of SH multi offshore sailing actually being kicked off by crazy fucking Anglos not the looney French and today where in their hands the Maxi Tri's at €10 million each shit themselves shortly after the start line. As you can imagine the response to my opinion piece there was mixed. :-)

The examples I referred to was first the winner of the inaugral RdR in 78 being a Anglo in a Anglo designed small timber Tri beating a French maxi monster. Coincidently a replica coloured up in matching yellow livery out there now and for last two RdR's is the legend Loïck Peyron in the rebuilt sister called "Happy".

My other example was the Anglo an American Tom Follet who built in the Caribbean a flimsy Proa for the 1968 Observer Single Handed Transatlantic Race (OSTAR)  coincidently called  "Cheers" and also coloured yellow who came third in the 1968 OSTAR beaten only by two monohulls, the 56' Sir Thomas Lipton and the 50' ketch Voortrekker. A race that had 15 multi's show up but where only 5 finished. So it wasn't as though the RO had doubts about multi's entering but were pretty gun shy all the same.

So as to the subject of qualifying for the S2H.

First to qualify Folett had to sail from the Caribbean to England to be allowed to enter and in response to this letter he received from the RO in late 1967, remembering this letter was sent post 1966 when a few multi's had been lost, predominantly in Australian waters, some with their designers or in the case of  Crowther his brother, but also pre 1968 where Piver another multi designer went MIA in his getting ready for this exact OSTAR race in 1968.

Race Committee letter, with my emphasis;

October, 1967.

Royal Western Yacht Club of England

"I notice that you are taking steps to enable the crew to right the vessel when it has capsized, but my committee are more interested in any steps you may take to stop the capsizing in the first place. We are still of the opinion that to race along at 25 knots in between periodically capsizing is not a proper way to cross the Atlantic..."

Wind forward 50 years and and have a look at RO's responses to race catastrofucks. The first major one was the 78 Fasnet. While no multi's racing, a spectator multi shat itself killing people. The mono result and aftermath is well documented. The resultant from that race was rules of race directed at crew preservation and prescribing design numbers for vessels relating to stability etc, some very sensible. Some as designs progressed over the years like a capsize index invented post Fasnet proved fucking loopy and if were given any regard light displacement boats would not exist today. The next big wake up call was the 98 S2H ironicaly 20 years later to the year that redefined yet again rules for offshore racing world wide.

Pre-qualification therefore in essence started way back 50 years ago this year to the 1968 OSTAR with Folett on that little yellow Proa and have grown since then.

The issue today for something like the S2H RO is thinking pre-qualification actually achieves anything?  It is in reality a 600 mile race off the coast arguably in waters less exposed than the Fasnet which at a higher lattitude and with Gulf Stream etc induced weather patterns being arguably less reliable to forecast but is a race which includes SH, multi's etc which are arguably more at risk but banned by the S2H RO. The result is you have to line up today to get a spot in the Fasnet.

While I appreciate the wounds of 98 are still raw for the CYC, the reality is the Rules of Race as is address numptys arriving in numpty boats crewed by numptys. So what does pre-qualification offer? My guess is zip. I'm therefore only left with thinking is it simply a pathetic agricultural means to try and bolster turn up numbers to their preceeding Blue Water Series and nothing else?

The CYC really needs to get off its fucking arse and where its energies are better employed addressing why being one of the top 3 offshore races on planet earth, the S2H can't get more than 100 entries, yet the others are beating entries back with a stick.

How many more Boxing Days have to slide by before someone at the CYC gets this shit?

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Maybe the CYCA wants to be more elitist than the RORC & RYS and are happy to have the low numbers?

It is rather funny that the S2H is cat 1 when fastnet is cat 2 :)

The S2H's 50% crew requirement probably kills off quite a few potential entries, especially with interstate boats. There are probably more than a few boats that will never be entered because the owner does not want to replace half his crew with ringins because their "only" experience is dozens of M2H, M2D, M2S between them.

The costs of doing the Hobart are also a factor. The logistics of getting the boat to Sydney, to Tassie and back etc all take time, crew and money. Safety gear and compliance also costs money. The race isn't everyone's cup of tea either.. You see a few boats/owners that do it and tick it off their bucket list and move on. 

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16 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Maybe the CYCA wants to be more elitist than the RORC & RYS and are happy to have the low numbers?

It is rather funny that the S2H is cat 1 when fastnet is cat 2 :)

The S2H's 50% crew requirement probably kills off quite a few potential entries, especially with interstate boats. There are probably more than a few boats that will never be entered because the owner does not want to replace half his crew with ringins because their "only" experience is dozens of M2H, M2D, M2S between them.

Hoppy that reply goes into the column marked dumb cunts with no fucking idea...then again I should not be surprised. Hint go check Fasnet requirements.

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Despite JS opinion, i do not think there is any doubt that the rshyr is, on average, tougher than the Fastnet. And a more difficult safety situation. Hence Cat 1 vs. Cat2.

It is also expensive, for compliance and redlivery, logistics in general.

I reckon any fleet size near 100 boats is a good result, all things considered.

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Qualifying Race or Ocean Passage
A boat shall substantially complete a qualifying race of not less than 150 nautical miles not more than six months before the start of the race.
The qualifying races are:
• Ponant Sydney Noumea Yacht Race, New South Wales
• Sydney Gold Coast Yacht Race, New South Wales
• Cabbage Tree Island Race, New South Wales
• Newcastle Bass Island Yacht Race, New South Wales
• Maria Island Race, Tasmania
• Melbourne - Stanley Race, Victoria
• Haystack Race, South Australia
• Wolf Rock Race, Queensland
• Brisbane to Keppel Yacht Race, Queensland
• Fremantle to Geraldton Yacht Race, Western Australia
• Hong Kong to Hainan Race, Hong Kong
• Other races approved by the Organising Authority
Approval of an alternate qualifying race may be sought from the Organising Authority in writing.
A boat may, with the prior approval of the Organising Authority (to be sought in writing), obtain dispensation from the requirement
to substantially complete a qualifying race by completing a non-stop ocean passage of not less than 24 hours not more than six months before the start of the race. A boat which is granted dispensation shall submit a detailed log of the passage on a form that can be obtained from the Organising Authority with the Pre-start Documentation under paragraph 4.2.

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8. 3.3

At least 50% of the crew on a boat shall have completed a Category 1 race or an equivalent passage. Particulars shall be supplied in the Crew List in the online entry (refer paragraph NOR 4.1).

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Personally, I don't buy in to the worshiping of the S2H. It used to be an iconic event that was something. Today it's a marketing exercise for 100 footers. I've done several over the past nearly 40 years including one with my dad and my best mate in a swanson 36. Back then it really meant something. I'll be there this year on an R/P 63 and....despite the hype...it won't be as good a doing it on that 4ktsb. Today I got a request to nominate how many i've done as part of the yacht profile...and I chose not to respond. I don't feel the need to be part of the marketing event. Others may choose to do so..that's their choice. I've had the opportunity and privilege of sailing in many of the world's offshore iconic events. The S2H is just one of them. The arrogance of the event management doesn't enthral me. There are many other sailing events that we can't do as a program if we choose to do the S2H. Logistics means making decisions. I reckon that the organisers need to get real and appeal to the local fleets, cos once you've ticked the box, if you're lucky, there's plenty of other t-shirts to collect.

That said, my brother...an outstanding dinghy sailor, is doing his first this year. he's doing it with great mates and i know it'll be special.

 

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23 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Does JS's opinion have any weight? He is certainly well read on sailing history but does he have any sailing experience that others can verify?

You aren't pretending...you really are not very bright, putting aside being a pond boy with an opinion worth shit. I feel really guilty.

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11 minutes ago, hoppy said:

And that's a problem when the S2H is probably the shortest and most convenient cat 1 race in Aus waters.  

Or an equivalent passage, 50% don’t need to have completed a cat 1 race. 

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56 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

It is also expensive, for compliance and redlivery, logistics in general.

I reckon any fleet size near 100 boats is a good result, all things considered.

"Redelivery" as a cost impost comparison to other races is an excellent point. But countering that is it is a once a year opportunity in Australia. Also look at those willing to arrive internationaly and little different to say a TransPac with the same redelivery cost issues where it is not suffering or suggest the majority of the Middle Sea Race entrants come from Malta and which is nonsense?

Both those offshore races like many others are experiencing record numbers. The S2H is going backwards.

100 boats rolling up to the S2H is pathetic by any objective measure and worse if that is to be accepted as a measure of a major world ranked race as being sustainable.

The S2H has been a "time warped" race in terms of participation for years now, that can't continue by any measure surely?

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14 hours ago, Couta said:

True 'dat....word is it was a miscommunication between bow and cockpit.....and a premature furl with a hand in the sail. The injury was relatively "clean" and the crewman is fully expecting to be recovered for the Hobart race..

Did the finger grow back?

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2 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Qualifying Race or Ocean Passage
A boat shall substantially complete a qualifying race of not less than 150 nautical miles not more than six months before the start of the race.
The qualifying races are:
• Ponant Sydney Noumea Yacht Race, New South Wales
• Sydney Gold Coast Yacht Race, New South Wales
• Cabbage Tree Island Race, New South Wales
• Newcastle Bass Island Yacht Race, New South Wales
• Maria Island Race, Tasmania
• Melbourne - Stanley Race, Victoria
• Haystack Race, South Australia
• Wolf Rock Race, Queensland
• Brisbane to Keppel Yacht Race, Queensland
• Fremantle to Geraldton Yacht Race, Western Australia
• Hong Kong to Hainan Race, Hong Kong
• Other races approved by the Organising Authority
Approval of an alternate qualifying race may be sought from the Organising Authority in writing.
A boat may, with the prior approval of the Organising Authority (to be sought in writing), obtain dispensation from the requirement
to substantially complete a qualifying race by completing a non-stop ocean passage of not less than 24 hours not more than six months before the start of the race. A boat which is granted dispensation shall submit a detailed log of the passage on a form that can be obtained from the Organising Authority with the Pre-start Documentation under paragraph 4.2.

Scan large as that list is, good or bad the S2H rules of race without that pre-qualification clearly prevents numpty's in numpty boats crewed by numpty's participating. It is a useless cost impost as a pre requisite to participation and a entry being capable.

However in a race involving 'prototypes' it is a very relevant provision. But in a crewed coastal race like the S2H where prototypes essentialy are barred and those participating are documented for both safety and rating purposes, that pre-qualification is just another hurdle to participation that costs money.

If the race pre-qualification was tied to crew and boat I would understand it, but it is not. It is a requirement directed towards a "boat only" having successfully or otherwise floated during a prior accredited race at some time and if so is good to go.

If anyone suffering some form of dillusion this pre-qualification is a great rule, then maybe they should ask themselves say should WOXI have been allowed to show up to the start line 5 minutes after being cut in half and rebuilt?

Many rules of this race are shit, discourage participation and many are fucking the race so it won't be around in the near future.

No matter ones thoughts on the subject, declining race participation numbers don't lie. The only explanation then is the RO of this race is no longer representing potential participants. That is a fact now to which there is no defence.

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3 hours ago, Couta said:

Personally, I don't buy in to the worshiping of the S2H. It used to be an iconic event that was something.

Pity and a shame.  Seems to be the case for most iconic events.  Start with a few blokes, a simple idea and before long it becomes a corporate cluster.

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Well, I am looking forward to losing my Hobart virginity this year.  Have done a number of Fastnets(5) and Middle Sea Races(2), and a Newport-Bermuda, I don't think people hold the S2H in any higher regard than the others with regards to racing, but they certainly do with regards to conditions. 

The last MSR I did had proper boat breaking conditions,  but I guess the big difference is that there is always a safe haven in close reach. A few of the Fastnets have had gnarly conditions,  but nothing horrendous; the N-B was tedious, but I have been across the Gulf Stream in totally different conditions that meant we were just protecting the boat and crew.

To me, it is still an iconic event, and I do understand the arguments around qualification. Perhaps if you have completed before (same boat, no significant changes, say 50% of the crew) you should get a pass on qualifying? Certainly I feel that entries should be encouraged and helped, but don't want to see a return to all and sundry setting out and putting the Rescue Services at risk.

By the way, do you have something similar to the RNLI in Oz? Or a full time employed service? Planning never to need, but genuinely curious. 

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23 minutes ago, Potter said:

By the way, do you have something similar to the RNLI in Oz? Or a full time employed service? Planning never to need, but genuinely curious. 

Theres a volunteer "Marine Rescue" in NSW, but I don't think their boats are as advanced as the RNLI's in terms of offshore capacity, theres the westpac chopper service which was volunteer but is now a non profit, theres AMSA who are the government search and rescue and then theres the Police / Maritime. Boats rescued between Eden and Tassie are often towed by a police boat from the stories I've heard.

Some of this information may be inaccurate, had to fact check myself, my SSSC needs a refresher obviously!

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9 hours ago, Couta said:

Personally, I don't buy in to the worshiping of the S2H. It used to be an iconic event that was something. Today it's a marketing exercise for 100 footers. I've done several over the past nearly 40 years including one with my dad and my best mate in a swanson 36. Back then it really meant something. I'll be there this year on an R/P 63 and....despite the hype...it won't be as good a doing it on that 4ktsb. Today I got a request to nominate how many i've done as part of the yacht profile...and I chose not to respond. I don't feel the need to be part of the marketing event. Others may choose to do so..that's their choice. I've had the opportunity and privilege of sailing in many of the world's offshore iconic events. The S2H is just one of them. The arrogance of the event management doesn't enthral me. There are many other sailing events that we can't do as a program if we choose to do the S2H. Logistics means making decisions. I reckon that the organisers need to get real and appeal to the local fleets, cos once you've ticked the box, if you're lucky, there's plenty of other t-shirts to collect.

That said, my brother...an outstanding dinghy sailor, is doing his first this year. he's doing it with great mates and i know it'll be special.

 

Everything he said.

I respond exactly the same way.

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1 hour ago, Frogman56 said:

Nothing remotely resembling the RNLI, nor the coverage the Fastnet has for the Irish Sea in rescue terms. 

While it appears very disjointed and possibly under resourced with a whole bunch of different assets it is far from that. The Joint Rescue Coordination Centre actually came into being in the year preceding the 98 Hobart which was fortuitous.

The volunteer aspect of the RNLI and its size is simply awesome. While there are lots of places with seperate volunteer outfits there is nothing like the RNLI anywhere else in the world.

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The 54' Teasing Machine maybe be one to watch. Apart from the win in the east to west TransAtlantic leg end of last year she has had a pretty quiet time in the Caribbean though plenty of practise up against say Rambler and Varuna, a 3rd on the Bermuda to Hamburg leg on way home this year. Had to retire in Middle Sea. Maybe her turn for some silverware.

Speaking of MSR if you ignore volcanoes and medieval backdrops it and S2H have a very similiar feel.

IMG_20181115_075836.jpg

IMG_20181115_075856.jpg

IMG_20181115_075923.jpg

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Unfortunately it is the litigious nature of society and the need to blame someone for your mistakes that make them have such onerous safety and qualification requirements.  There is no going back as no club director wants to stand infront of the coroner saying they decided that they didn't need to do a mandatory qualification race after some punter enters a unsuitable boat and ends up sinking.

I have done a Hobart when all there was were a few practice sails and one guy first got on the boat that morning.  In hindsight we were lucky

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22 hours ago, Chucky said:

I Believe this V70 is a charter arrangement for the owner to cover his running costs with a few ring-ins including a commodore from a yacht club in based Melbourne

Was told last night it is 10,000 eur for a spot

18 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

they can just do a qualifier on their own.  Out the heads, 200nm east and back (or something like that). I think they'll need to apply for dispensation to do it.

Yep

12 hours ago, Couta said:

Personally, I don't buy in to the worshiping of the S2H. It used to be an iconic event that was something. Today it's a marketing exercise for 100 footers. I've done several over the past nearly 40 years including one with my dad and my best mate in a swanson 36. Back then it really meant something. I'll be there this year on an R/P 63 and....despite the hype...it won't be as good a doing it on that 4ktsb. Today I got a request to nominate how many i've done as part of the yacht profile...and I chose not to respond. I don't feel the need to be part of the marketing event. Others may choose to do so..that's their choice. I've had the opportunity and privilege of sailing in many of the world's offshore iconic events. The S2H is just one of them. The arrogance of the event management doesn't enthral me. There are many other sailing events that we can't do as a program if we choose to do the S2H. Logistics means making decisions. I reckon that the organisers need to get real and appeal to the local fleets, cos once you've ticked the box, if you're lucky, there's plenty of other t-shirts to collect.

That said, my brother...an outstanding dinghy sailor, is doing his first this year. he's doing it with great mates and i know it'll be special.

 

Well said... and my thoughts as well but I may feel that way due to having done a bunch.... I don't know..... Everything was better back when I was boy....lol

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7 hours ago, Potter said:

Well, I am looking forward to losing my Hobart virginity this year.  Have done a number of Fastnets(5) and Middle Sea Races(2), and a Newport-Bermuda, I don't think people hold the S2H in any higher regard than the others with regards to racing, but they certainly do with regards to conditions. 

The last MSR I did had proper boat breaking conditions,  but I guess the big difference is that there is always a safe haven in close reach. A few of the Fastnets have had gnarly conditions,  but nothing horrendous; the N-B was tedious, but I have been across the Gulf Stream in totally different conditions that meant we were just protecting the boat and crew.

To me, it is still an iconic event, and I do understand the arguments around qualification. Perhaps if you have completed before (same boat, no significant changes, say 50% of the crew) you should get a pass on qualifying? Certainly I feel that entries should be encouraged and helped, but don't want to see a return to all and sundry setting out and putting the Rescue Services at risk.

By the way, do you have something similar to the RNLI in Oz? Or a full time employed service? Planning never to need, but genuinely curious. 

I've been reminded that it's been a few years since I stayed at the RORC in London. I'd love to have another beer with you. Are you bringing the Mrs too?

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8 hours ago, Potter said:

Well, I am looking forward to losing my Hobart virginity this year. 

Well done Potter. Hope you get the weather you are looking for. Hint don't be deceived by the date, a December SW in Hobart can feel like December at home.

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I'm hoping for a much bigger fleet next year for the anniversary year. Do you think the club will change the costs to entice the smaller boats next year??

I agree with the comments above re the good old days where the the majority of the fleet was in the 30-40 foot range..

#bringbackthegoodoldays

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Is it a case of what used to be 35/40' is now 45/50' and no one wants to spend 3/4 nights at sea anymore ?

Everyone is time poor. You have to get enough crew to prepare, race & deliver the boat both ways. 1750nm odd round trip from QLD.

There are 6 Qld entries of which only 3 are local amateur teams. There are more international entries than boats from QLD! 

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Any feedback after the Cabbage Tree race on Comanche vs Oats etc? Comanche finished 18 Miles ahead of Oats and was wondering if it was the conditions that suited the Indian or have they squeezed some extra speed out of her? Upwind the Indian seems to have some legs when the weather suits?

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2 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Entry cost has little to do with the cost of the race IIRC, not much they could do. 

True... I guess the safety requirements shouldn’t/won’t be relaxed so the related costs won’t decrease but they need to do something to encourage a big anniversary fleet and revitalise the race as they have done with the other major 600 races..

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Does the CYCA invite owners / boats?

Invite the mini maxi’s the wally owners, get the Sydney 38 guys up to 10-15 entries. See if they can offer any help to the owners of boats wanting to get their boats through Cat1. 

I’m sure the CYCA have a few things planned for a big 75th  

 

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

Does the CYCA invite owners / boats?

Invite the mini maxi’s the wally owners, get the Sydney 38 guys up to 10-15 entries. See if they can offer any help to the owners of boats wanting to get their boats through Cat1. 

I’m sure the CYCA have a few things planned for a big 75th  

 

If you were serious about getting the mini maxis etc here you’d pre arrange DYT to do a med-Sydney run arriving in October then a qld-Europe run in late feb.

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41 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

If you were serious about getting the mini maxis etc here you’d pre arrange DYT to do a med-Sydney run arriving in October then a qld-Europe run in late feb.

It is too late now noting North Atlantic Hurricane season screws with going via the Carribbean so would have to be a west to east via Cape Town and Southern Ocean tour which might scare a few people.

Good idea. As part of the Anniversary Regatta east to west and west to east had 35 entries some two way some one way which helped pump up Carribbean 600 numbers this year.

http://anniversary-regatta.com/participants/entry-list.html

The RORC leg to the Caribbean got 23 incl couple of Mod 70's and a win by Teasing Machine that is in the S2H.

http://www.rorc.org/events/racing-events-2018/2018-rorc-transatlantic-race

The Return Antigua to Bemuda

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/antiguabermuda.com/amp

and Bermuda to Hamburg

http://anniversary-regatta.com

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58 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Cabbage Tree was hard upwind most of the race so Oats ran out of stability.  Pure and simple, though given the time Comanche is spending on the water there are bound to be performance gains.

Cheers makes sense

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

 Any word about the TV broadcast of the race start now that 7 has cricket? 7's main channel will I assume show the Boxing Day test, so the race will  be relegated to one of their other channels or perhaps jump networks.

Thankfully the online coverage is getting better and better.

Channel 7 love the Oatley Hour..it will be on their #2 channel 7Mate and online with Yahoo7 as normal.

Don't worry it won't just be 100' coverage... Channel 7 will take bits out of this.

 

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16 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Everyone is time poor. You have to get enough crew to prepare, race & deliver the boat both ways. 1750nm odd round trip from QLD.

There are 6 Qld entries of which only 3 are local amateur teams. There are more international entries than boats from QLD

Bit of a sad state of affairs when you look at it in those terms. 

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15 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Does the CYCA invite owners / boats?

Invite the mini maxi’s the wally owners, get the Sydney 38 guys up to 10-15 entries. See if they can offer any help to the owners of boats wanting to get their boats through Cat1. 

I’m sure the CYCA have a few things planned for a big 75th  

 

RPAYC did this, it worked on me. 

The RC went out of his way since last year to resolve the ORCI stability issue that got me flicked last year, and got acceptance for an ISO cert in lieu. He then rang and emailed to let me know and to invite us back for next year. I was so touched that he made the effort I signed up straight away. 

 

Hobart. Would take the boat in a heartbeat, but the overall cost for me from Brisbane to Brisbane is too much in time and money. It's now a min $30K exercise even with a near new boat and minimum a month away from home.

If I had a crew said they're up for it, I would do one race at that price if I have to fund it alone. 

Cal me a tightarse, but that's a lot of cash and time when I can go chasing 50+ boat packs a couple of times a year offshore with a much more efficient ROI.   

Scanas, you're prepping a good solid boat seasoned for it, you in the 10'000's yet (with a month to go) ?  

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15 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Any feedback after the Cabbage Tree race on Comanche vs Oats etc? Comanche finished 18 Miles ahead of Oats and was wondering if it was the conditions that suited the Indian or have they squeezed some extra speed out of her? Upwind the Indian seems to have some legs when the weather suits?

 

12 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Cabbage Tree was hard upwind most of the race so Oats ran out of stability.  Pure and simple, though given the time Comanche is spending on the water there are bound to be performance gains.

Report from those on board and just what I know...

Conditions as DD said were to the big girls liking and they used that to their advantage...The boat has progressed with the new owner. Some good changes to the power source and sail plan have worked well.... The new crew have now done many hours sail training and many more are planed so It's a real case of time on the water together as a team which is a huge gain when changing gears on these beasts.... 

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1 minute ago, shaggybaxter said:

RPAYC did this, it worked on me. 

The RC went out of his way since last year to resolve the ORCI stability issue that got me flicked last year, and got acceptance for an ISO cert in lieu. He then rang and emailed to let me know and to invite us back for next year. I was so touched that he made the effort I signed up straight away. 

 

Hobart. Would take the boat in a heartbeat, but the overall cost for me from Brisbane to Brisbane is too much in time and money. It's now a min $30K exercise even with a near new boat and minimum a month away from home.

If I had a crew said they're up for it, I would do one race at that price,. 

Cal me a tightarse, but that's a lot of cash when I can go chasing 50+ boat packs a couple of times a year offshore with a much more efficient ROI.   

 

I would consider doing another Hobart on a boat like yours and would pitch in on ongoing costs for the lead up as I know others would. I would also be able to be on the ground in Sydney prior to the race to help look after and prep...

I'm huge fan of the class 40 

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13 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Cabbage Tree was hard upwind most of the race so Oats ran out of stability.  Pure and simple, though given the time Comanche is spending on the water there are bound to be performance gains.

You mean because she is so narrow? Or ballast ratio/foils? I read that Comanche feel they have increased their light wind performance.

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4 minutes ago, mccroc said:

You mean because she is so narrow? Or ballast ratio/foils? I read that Comanche feel they have increased their light wind performance.

I think going Electric would have no doubt helped Comanche change gears also. With the continuous focus on improving light air performance they would close the gap with Oats but BJ owns the 5-10 Knot range. Time on the water is paying off for Comanche. 

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19 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Scanas, you're prepping a good solid boat seasoned for it, you in the 10'000's yet (with a month to go) ?  

Luckily there are some handy guys on the crew & in the support network helping out. 

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

 

Cal me a tightarse, but that's a lot of cash and time when I can go chasing 50+ boat packs a couple of times a year offshore with a much more efficient ROI.   

Scanas, you're prepping a good solid boat seasoned for it, you in the 10'000's yet (with a month to go) ?  

You're not a tightarse, you're making a sensible decision. The Hobart is an awesome in lots of ways, but for the smaller to medium size boats the fleet is now so small and scattered that it's hard to justify the expense since you're racing such utterly different and widespread boats even in your class, partly because unlike the CCA the CYCA insists on only having a few classes even if that means having a wide spread of boats in some of them. Racing Maluka or Azzurro against a JPK 1080 or Benny 40.7 isn't a fair race.

It can't just be because of time issues because the Newport-Bermuda guys have the same sort of issues. It can't just be because people don't want to sail a few nights offshore, because the Bermuda, Fastnet and Middle Sea Races are going gangbusters.  And there's no long races or deliveries involved in the CYCA weekend sailing, but those fleets are now tiny.

One thing is that those races seem to have committees that value small boats more, and big boats less. Even the Hobart website is the only one that gives the results in line honours order as a default - it's only a little thing but it seems to indicate the CYCA's way of thinking. The other races are also in places where you can get into offshore boats by having proper competitive racing in small offshore style boats to develop owners, sailors and the fleet. Australia has no equivalent to PHRF or the various US one designs (J/30s, 105s, Expresses etc) or the European half/quarter or one design scenes. Unlike those other countries, in Australia there's no PHRF or owner-measured IRC rule, so most owners can't get local competition under anything but PHS which is frustrating, doesn't give you any incentive to improve, and makes going to regattas a matter of luck because you don't know what handicap they'll give you. And as one keen small boat owner said recently, you can't work out whether you are getting better at sailing because each regatta you get a different guess from a different handicapper. 

One simple way of looking at the problem for small boat owners is that to finish as far behind the line honours boat as a Half Tonner used to do, you now need something like a Sydney 47 or Farr 40. If you sail a small boat by the time you get in, the preso may have been run and the race is almost over. Sure, the same thing can happen in the Bermuda or Fastnet, but they ensure they have classes just for small and amateur boats and don't obsess about the big boats in the same way - as one example, they don't even give the line honours results list that the CYCA has as its default.

The success of the Launceston-Hobart and revamped Gladstone could show that if you change the elitist attitude (by doing things like changing the safety category, which sends a message to owners that you understand that not all of us are multibazillionaires) and the difficulty of doing the race, you get entries. And if Australian Sailing actually did what just about every other major country did for its cruiser/racer fleet, like keeping an eye on costs and running a cheap and simple rating system like owner-measured unweighed IRC for local events or PHRF/LYS/HN/HKYS/DSY, then we might start rebuilding the fleet with new owners before all the existing ones die.

Just my two cents worth, as someone who leaves the offshore boat on the mooring so I can race ODs.

 

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RPAYC (Pittwater to Paradise) are a fantastic club who really do care about the boats and crews and go out of there way to help them.

Shame they don't run a Hobart race for small boats.

Then cyca could run a race for Maxis and TP52s which is all they are interested in anyway.

Hobart is a great race, always get a change in weather, some calm patches, strong wind , warm and cold long enough to make it a challenge etc.

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2 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

RPAYC did this, it worked on me. 

The RC went out of his way since last year to resolve the ORCI stability issue that got me flicked last year, and got acceptance for an ISO cert in lieu. He then rang and emailed to let me know and to invite us back for next year. I was so touched that he made the effort I signed up straight away. 

 

Hobart. Would take the boat in a heartbeat, but the overall cost for me from Brisbane to Brisbane is too much in time and money. It's now a min $30K exercise even with a near new boat and minimum a month away from home.

If I had a crew said they're up for it, I would do one race at that price if I have to fund it alone. 

Cal me a tightarse, but that's a lot of cash and time when I can go chasing 50+ boat packs a couple of times a year offshore with a much more efficient ROI.   

Scanas, you're prepping a good solid boat seasoned for it, you in the 10'000's yet (with a month to go) ?  

i'd drop a chunk for sure, just to go to australia and be a part of it. make it happen and i'll go , as rail meat of course.

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24 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

i'd drop a chunk for sure, just to go to australia and be a part of it. make it happen and i'll go , as rail meat of course.

 Open the bidding Shaggy! 

No need for railmeat on the Pogo so you can charge extra to go in comfort! 

FWIW about 10yrs ago I looked at going on a charter 47.7 it was about 10k back then. 

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4 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

 Open the bidding Shaggy! 

No need for railmeat on the Pogo so you can charge extra to go in comfort! 

FWIW about 10yrs ago I looked at going on a charter 47.7 it was about 10k back then. 

fine, i'll go as chef. 

i would gladly drop coin , such a cool boat, such a cool race , and basically all the racing i have ever done , be it 20 years ago , was offshore on a relatively big IMS boat here on the west coast in the states. i would be pretty useless under way other than grinding and helping hand, but damn i'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

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3 hours ago, mccroc said:

You mean because she is so narrow? Or ballast ratio/foils? I read that Comanche feel they have increased their light wind performance.

Yep - plain old righting moment.  At the start WOXI and BlackJack both had reefs in and were flying small jibs, Comanche was full hoist

I'm sure Comanche has improved its light air performance too.

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3 hours ago, Curious said:

You're not a tightarse, you're making a sensible decision. The Hobart is an awesome in lots of ways, but for the smaller to medium size boats the fleet is now so small and scattered that it's hard to justify the expense since you're racing such utterly different and widespread boats even in your class, partly because unlike the CCA the CYCA insists on only having a few classes even if that means having a wide spread of boats in some of them. Racing Maluka or Azzurro against a JPK 1080 or Benny 40.7 isn't a fair race.

It can't just be because of time issues because the Newport-Bermuda guys have the same sort of issues. It can't just be because people don't want to sail a few nights offshore, because the Bermuda, Fastnet and Middle Sea Races are going gangbusters.  And there's no long races or deliveries involved in the CYCA weekend sailing, but those fleets are now tiny.

One thing is that those races seem to have committees that value small boats more, and big boats less. Even the Hobart website is the only one that gives the results in line honours order as a default - it's only a little thing but it seems to indicate the CYCA's way of thinking. The other races are also in places where you can get into offshore boats by having proper competitive racing in small offshore style boats to develop owners, sailors and the fleet. Australia has no equivalent to PHRF or the various US one designs (J/30s, 105s, Expresses etc) or the European half/quarter or one design scenes. Unlike those other countries, in Australia there's no PHRF or owner-measured IRC rule, so most owners can't get local competition under anything but PHS which is frustrating, doesn't give you any incentive to improve, and makes going to regattas a matter of luck because you don't know what handicap they'll give you. And as one keen small boat owner said recently, you can't work out whether you are getting better at sailing because each regatta you get a different guess from a different handicapper. 

One simple way of looking at the problem for small boat owners is that to finish as far behind the line honours boat as a Half Tonner used to do, you now need something like a Sydney 47 or Farr 40. If you sail a small boat by the time you get in, the preso may have been run and the race is almost over. Sure, the same thing can happen in the Bermuda or Fastnet, but they ensure they have classes just for small and amateur boats and don't obsess about the big boats in the same way - as one example, they don't even give the line honours results list that the CYCA has as its default.

The success of the Launceston-Hobart and revamped Gladstone could show that if you change the elitist attitude (by doing things like changing the safety category, which sends a message to owners that you understand that not all of us are multibazillionaires) and the difficulty of doing the race, you get entries. And if Australian Sailing actually did what just about every other major country did for its cruiser/racer fleet, like keeping an eye on costs and running a cheap and simple rating system like owner-measured unweighed IRC for local events or PHRF/LYS/HN/HKYS/DSY, then we might start rebuilding the fleet with new owners before all the existing ones die.

Just my two cents worth, as someone who leaves the offshore boat on the mooring so I can race ODs.

 

Curious 

 

It’s interesting in what you have said and I tend to agree with a lot of what you are saying. 

 

The intresting thing about the basic handicaping system is, I know that at my home club of Southport they tried AMS and have gone back to a PHS system as the same boats were winning all the time as most owners can’t sail their boat to its rating or spend the money they need to to be able to sail to the rating as well. So the sailors that thought they were hot shots had their asses kicked. 

 

I think that most Clubs and AS forget that if you want a fleet to grow it’s not the front end of the fleet that they need to look after. It’s the back 1/3 of the fleet. If they are happy your fleet will grow and it’s these owners and crews that will either buy the top boats or better boats in the in the fleet as the front end of the fleet upgrades or they will go out and bring a new boat into the fleet to beat there mates. I’ve also seen the crews on the back 1/3 of the fleet buy the boats they are sailing on when the owner upgrades so the fleet grows that way as well. 

 

I also think that the clubs also need to look at the prizes that they give out as well. I sailed a race this week and got 2nd and won  2 x 6 packs of XXXX beer that’s dish water that I handed back.

 

I still remember Sailing at one club that all crew were members and a trophy fund was built into your membership and every time we won even a club race the whole crew who sailed that day on the boat were given a set of glasses and even if you were a ring in for the day you still got a prize if you were on the winning boat. At the end of the season if the Boat won any of the major prizes for the season the crew were rewarded as well. What ended up happening was the owners were finding that the crews would help more in the running of the boats and the costs and it was more of a team effort. 

 

Just my thoughts 

 

pulpit 

 

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The irony of the 100' Oatley Hour is if it wasn't for a Channel 7 cameraman onboard and helicopter overhead (plus a Rolex film crew in another) the result from the protest room last year may have WOXI as the current record holder.

I just spoke to Stan Honey and he’d like to respectfully disagree with you.

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9 hours ago, Curious said:

You're not a tightarse, you're making a sensible decision. The Hobart is an awesome in lots of ways, but for the smaller to medium size boats the fleet is now so small and scattered that it's hard to justify the expense since you're racing such utterly different and widespread boats even in your class, partly because unlike the CCA the CYCA insists on only having a few classes even if that means having a wide spread of boats in some of them. Racing Maluka or Azzurro against a JPK 1080 or Benny 40.7 isn't a fair race.

It can't just be because of time issues because the Newport-Bermuda guys have the same sort of issues. It can't just be because people don't want to sail a few nights offshore, because the Bermuda, Fastnet and Middle Sea Races are going gangbusters.  And there's no long races or deliveries involved in the CYCA weekend sailing, but those fleets are now tiny.

One thing is that those races seem to have committees that value small boats more, and big boats less. Even the Hobart website is the only one that gives the results in line honours order as a default - it's only a little thing but it seems to indicate the CYCA's way of thinking. The other races are also in places where you can get into offshore boats by having proper competitive racing in small offshore style boats to develop owners, sailors and the fleet. Australia has no equivalent to PHRF or the various US one designs (J/30s, 105s, Expresses etc) or the European half/quarter or one design scenes. Unlike those other countries, in Australia there's no PHRF or owner-measured IRC rule, so most owners can't get local competition under anything but PHS which is frustrating, doesn't give you any incentive to improve, and makes going to regattas a matter of luck because you don't know what handicap they'll give you. And as one keen small boat owner said recently, you can't work out whether you are getting better at sailing because each regatta you get a different guess from a different handicapper. 

One simple way of looking at the problem for small boat owners is that to finish as far behind the line honours boat as a Half Tonner used to do, you now need something like a Sydney 47 or Farr 40. If you sail a small boat by the time you get in, the preso may have been run and the race is almost over. Sure, the same thing can happen in the Bermuda or Fastnet, but they ensure they have classes just for small and amateur boats and don't obsess about the big boats in the same way - as one example, they don't even give the line honours results list that the CYCA has as its default.

The success of the Launceston-Hobart and revamped Gladstone could show that if you change the elitist attitude (by doing things like changing the safety category, which sends a message to owners that you understand that not all of us are multibazillionaires) and the difficulty of doing the race, you get entries. And if Australian Sailing actually did what just about every other major country did for its cruiser/racer fleet, like keeping an eye on costs and running a cheap and simple rating system like owner-measured unweighed IRC for local events or PHRF/LYS/HN/HKYS/DSY, then we might start rebuilding the fleet with new owners before all the existing ones die.

Just my two cents worth, as someone who leaves the offshore boat on the mooring so I can race ODs.

 

nice summary.

 

re: the bold bit. Maybe there'll be a change of attitude with the offshore addition to the Olympics?    I tend to think not, as 90% of AS funding is Olympic, and therefore that's 90% of their focus.

If we want sailing to gain from AS input, we either zero the olympic (taxpayer) funding, or make it conditional on amateur sailing metrics rather than medals.

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1 hour ago, Timmy Time said:

I just spoke to Stan Honey and he’d like to respectfully disagree with you.

Yes Stan's telementary reconstruction for the Jury scared the fuck out of everyone. Was more acurate and compelling evidence than that which can be derived from any vid of the incident. The vids however convinced the couch potatoes.

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14 hours ago, pulpit said:

If you want a fleet to grow it’s not the front end of the fleet that they need to look after. It’s the back 1/3 of the fleet. If they are happy your fleet will grow and it’s these owners and crews that will either buy the top boats or better boats in the in the fleet as the front end of the fleet upgrades or they will go out and bring a new boat into the fleet to beat there mates. I’ve also seen the crews on the back 1/3 of the fleet buy the boats they are sailing on when the owner upgrades so the fleet grows that way as well.

^^^ THIS ^^^

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If you look at the special regs - there's actually not much difference between the two.

Mostly crew requirements (2 instead of 1 LROCP and first aiders, 50% rather than 30% SSSC), more flares and drugs, and that's about it.

Those crew requirements get a bit onerous, and the quantity of drugs are a bit silly for smaller boats.

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6 hours ago, hoppy said:

HF should be dumped from cat 2 and the S2H. Actual ocean races  should keep the HF requirement.

HF in Cat 2/Cat 2 modified has already all but dissapeared world wide. A few Cat 1 races like S2H and China Seas Race still have HF but that is largely because VHF coverage is not as good as say the Fasnet  and for the former the RO is still gunshy re large rescue numbers from 1998 experience. If you mean RTW for ocean races they ditched HF nearly 2 decades ago in favour of Satcom C terminals since GMDSS was introduced.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

HF in Cat 2/Cat 2 modified has already all but dissapeared world wide. A few Cat 1 races like S2H and China Seas Race still have HF but that is largely because VHF coverage is not as good as say the Fasnet  and for the former the RO is still gunshy re large rescue numbers from 1998 experience. If you mean RTW for ocean races they ditched HF nearly 2 decades ago in favour of Satcom C terminals since GMDSS was introduced.

Thx Jack, I wondered what they used in lieu. Ignorance speaking here, but Isn't Satcom C still one to one though?

I'm confused about something. I thought a big reason for the HF requirement was due to its one to many capability, or broadcast capability. I'd want the boats near me to know I've got problems as much as the RC or SAR. 

Hence why a Sat phones is the poor cousin in this regard. I know we have VHF, but in big seas I don't like VHF except to a chopper. 

Or is broadcast capability a bit old fashioned a requirement now? 

  

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4 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Thx Jack, I wondered what they used in lieu. Ignorance speaking here, but Isn't Satcom C still one to one though?

I'm confused about something. I thought a big reason for the HF requirement was due to its one to many capability, or broadcast capability. I'd want the boats near me to know I've got problems as much as the RC or SAR. 

Hence why a Sat phones is the poor cousin in this regard. I know we have VHF, but in big seas I don't like VHF except to a chopper. 

Or is broadcast capability a bit old fashioned a requirement now? 

  

Satcom C is not a common variety Satphone but a GMDSS device. Sat C and DSC HF are GMDSS devices and identical both being two way digital paging systems to both recieve and acknowledge a broadcast distress message plus each has voice. The only difference is transmission method. Remember that while SOLAS vessels carry both, they don't maintain a listening watch on voice HF safety frequencies, only DSC frequencies.

Despite what Offshored Regs might say, they are modified by RC's to suit their environment . 

For instance DSC HF is mandated in Cat 1 and Cat 2 but modified. Examples are:

RC of Fasnet doesn't require HF on account there is wide VHF coverage and concentrated SAR resources close by.

SE Asia has got wide HF use/coverage but poor SAR capability so the RC of China Sea Race maintains the Cat 1 DSC HF requirement.

There are Cat 1 & 2 Races in Australia that have race courses that don't have continuous 24 hour and geographical VHF coverage and a mix of SAR capability in close proximity. So some Cat 2 RC's permit Sat Phone in lieu of Voice HF. S2H a Cat 1 it is Voice HF plus Satphone. The reason they don't mandate DSC enabled HF in Australia is low private DSC HF use and to reduce costs of compliance so allow voice only HF legacy equipment. They address the "nobody is listening to Voice HF anymore" by having Charleville Radio for the duration of the race maintain a voice listening watch in addition to those in the race.

Newport Bemuda Race is Satphone and they have the USCG who line up down each side of the race course like spectators.

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34 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

Ditch HF and use Facebook for one to many communications, get with the times.  Just post a photo of the boat sinking and you can see how many likes and shares you get

You forgot Instagram and Twitter - I think they may really save lives.

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

Rescue authorities can use HF to alert shipping and the vessel in trouble should call on VHF.

Sat C not HF is primary means of SAR Coordinating Authorities communicating with SOLAS vessels. SOLAS vessels only maintain a non-voice listening watch on DSC HF and have to carry the gear to respond to and to communicate with non SOLAS vessels outside VHF range.

3 hours ago, hoppy said:

Of course, you can still have HF on board even if a race goes 100% satcom

That is exactly what the S2H is now but with HF Voice the primary and Satphone the backup as described upthread, noting a voice only HF radio outside a voice HF enabled race is an expensive doorstop. Importance given to HF as primary is DSQ for those that don't notify they are entering Bass Strait via HF.

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PS. Just in case someone picks me up on the GMDSS "Push the Red Button" ..."I'm sinking come get me" gear I have mentioned above.

I have only referenced Inmarsat C (incl Mini C) terminals as being GMDSS capable on the basis they are the most common in sailboats, ignoring Inmarsat Fleet 77 and also as that is due for retirement soon. This year Inmarsat also got its Fleet Safety system GMDSS approved which is delivered over their FleetBroadband and the cheaper Fleet One platform. Inmarsat's monopoly has also been broken as GMDSS approval has also been granted to Iridium recently.

With that competive tension and wider equip/data plan choices hopefully we might see GMDSS enabled communications gear and as stipulated in Offshore Regs for around 5 years now finally become affordable. If nothing else it will relieve RC's of the burdan of concocting workarounds using Non-GMDSS enabled equipment like Voice HF and Satphones.

One of the ironical things in this SAR and GMDSS communication space is that technological change is only occuring in the satelite arena. The DSC enabled HF radio bought 20 years ago is still state of the art and will remain so for many decades to come. Also other than its GPS location output/input, a platform that can't be hacked by the Chinese :-)

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3 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Ditch HF and use Facebook for one to many communications, get with the times.  Just post a photo of the boat sinking and you can see how many likes and shares you get

To ensure quality of posts & bravado by crews the rescue boat only goes 1nm for 1 like so if your routing goes offshore you better have a quality Facebook game.