Sydney To Hobart 2018

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

7 minutes ago, Ozmex said:

http://www.kordia.com.au/casestudy/maritime-safety-communications-services/

Oz don't take that design and build stuff too literally there in that Kordia PR fluff piece.

They simply used the HF infrastructure already in place for a trillion years starting with for instance the Charleville School of the Air in the mid 60's combined with the Flying Doctor service and Aust defence and maritime HF infrastructure. Marine radio services in Australia have up until Kordia have always had a history of involving private interests with a defence/ partnership. Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) or AWA the first big  private was born from the German Telefunken Co and the Italian then British Marconi Company in the early 1900's, the Australian Government being a shareholder from time to time but always controlling it. The last majority owner I think was British Aerospace in the 1990's. The Government's overall control still exists today even though Kordia have operational responsibility.

Kordia's introduction 2 decades ago was to use the base infrastructure at Charleville in QLD and at Wiluna in WA to provide Australia's response to the world wide agreed Marine GMDSS network that incorporated a century old HF radio platform.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

47 minutes ago, mad said:

Cough, cough.  1979 Fastnet. 

The race that changed things.

The Sailing World/RC's around the world responded instantly to that though at times with crazy things like capsize numbers that sent Euro designers into a bit of a spin and where the French couldn't give a bugger and took over the light displacement space and now own it. 

In terms of this discussion on SAR it took Australia not having the one stop shop SAR infrastucture like the UK or USA back then and still today 20 years to finalise a truly centralised approach to co-cordinate both Federal, State and Private/Volunteer organisations under one roof for SAR. That centralised SAR  coordination was settled and up and going the year before the 1998 Hobart.

Lucky they didn't take 21 years.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

the only rude person is you, the coward who hides behinds his computer.

 

Wrong yet again, I'm hiding under my phone.

[Monkey 1,523]

5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

And what is the upside for me outing myself other than diminishing a fadding reputation by wasting 2 seconds of very valuable time conversing with a useless pond boy who was born with no ears? You really are a rude useless little cunt.

I’m not taking Hoppy’s side, but it’d be interesting to hear your CV. You kind of have a habit of acting like a know it all cunt. Most of us don’t mind at all talking about the boats we sail on. 

[monosailor 18]

On 11/16/2018 at 11:01 AM, Curious said:

 And if Australian Sailing actually did what just about every other major country did for its cruiser/racer fleet, like keeping an eye on costs and running a cheap and simple rating system like owner-measured unweighed IRC for local events or PHRF/LYS/HN/HKYS/DSY, then we might start rebuilding the fleet with new owners before all the existing ones die.

Isn’t this why there is ORCi/ ORCi Club? Just not many clubs support it?

[Snowden 356]

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Terra my understanding is the PLB manufacturer guys are still trying to break down the regulatory walls that both stop EPIRB 406 PLB's being automatic and with lower battery life and AIS PLB's already being automatic so they can produce a combined EPIRB/AIS PLB small device for sailboat people.

It may happen but I’m not convinced an auto activated EPIRB is a great idea given the number of false alarms when crew with the AIS ones take a wave on deck. 

[longy 580]

4 hours ago, Monkey said:

I’m not taking Hoppy’s side, but it’d be interesting to hear your CV. You kind of have a habit of acting like a know it all cunt. Most of us don’t mind at all talking about the boats we sail on. 

He's not serious until he calls you a 'turnip'

[mad 3,967]

5 minutes ago, longy said:

He's not serious until he calls you a 'turnip'

We need Jack around for troll culling purposes. 

Have you bought that boat yet Hoppy? 

[terrafirma 1,150]

1 hour ago, Snowden said:

It may happen but I’m not convinced an auto activated EPIRB is a great idea given the number of false alarms when crew with the AIS ones take a wave on deck. 

As I understand it they are designed not to activate via a wave on deck. There is some sort of flotation trigger. False alarms may occur now and then but someone keeps telling me isn't it better to be safe than sorry? 

[42 South 27]

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Oz don't take that design and build stuff too literally there in that Kordia PR fluff piece.

They simply used the HF infrastructure already in place for a trillion years starting with for instance the Charleville School of the Air in the mid 60's combined with the Flying Doctor service and Aust defence and maritime HF infrastructure. Marine radio services in Australia have up until Kordia have always had a history of involving private interests with a defence/ partnership. Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) or AWA the first big  private was born from the German Telefunken Co and the Italian then British Marconi Company in the early 1900's, the Australian Government being a shareholder from time to time but always controlling it. The last majority owner I think was British Aerospace in the 1990's. The Government's overall control still exists today even though Kordia have operational responsibility.

Kordia's introduction 2 decades ago was to use the base infrastructure at Charleville in QLD and at Wiluna in WA to provide Australia's response to the world wide agreed Marine GMDSS network that incorporated a century old HF radio platform.

There are still some indendent stations monitoring HF radio see http://tasmaritime.com.au/TMR/index.php/services/distress-monitoring

 

[Gorn FRANTIC!! 412]

1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

As I understand it they are designed not to activate via a wave on deck. There is some sort of flotation trigger. False alarms may occur now and then but someone keeps telling me isn't it better to be safe than sorry? 

The ACR & Ocean Signal ones I've seen are designed to attach around the bladders on the PFD and when they inflate that pull a tab which releases a switch and activates the beacon, I'd imagine an auto activate PLB would work in the same manner.

[stufishing 217]

Yeah, cant see it being activated by the PFD fixing anything. I had my Spinlock deckvest auto inflate in my sailing bag, sometime after I used it last.

First I realised was when I couldn't open my bag to pack for the  next race. No idea where or when it went off, can't imagine that AMSA would be impressed about chasing me up about my PLB being activated at the same time.

Having to manually activate the PLB prevents false alarms quite well. I look forward to future developments with interest.

[PIL66 - XL2 937]

2 hours ago, mad said:

We need Jack around for troll culling purposes. 

Have you bought that boat yet Hoppy? 

Not happening

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

1 hour ago, 42 South said:

There are still some indendent stations monitoring HF radio see http://tasmaritime.com.au/TMR/index.php/services/distress-monitoring

 

42 that is a typical Limited Coast Station worldwide and that in Aust case is part of the National Coast Radio Network and which where most LCS's only operate 12 hours per day. 

[Sailbydate 2,975]

S2H - second best thing about, Christmas. I see Jack's on form. That's reassuring. :-)

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

One way of testing the reasonable nature of S2H SI's regarding communication equipment is to make a comparison to domestic commercial vessels.

In Australia there is a National Standard for domestic Commercial Vessels (NSCV) which contains the standards for vessel survey, construction, equipment, design, communications, operation and crew competencies etc. These standards are administered by the States. The NSCV replaces the old Uniform Shipping Laws.

Domestic commercial vessels are classified according to the area of operation (much like the Offshore Regs do using Race Catagories) and type of operation ie passenger, fishing etc.

It is difficult to ascertain a straight line comparison between a racing yacht and a commercial vessel operating in an area the equivalent to the S2H race course.  However as a guide the minimum long distance communication equipment would be a GMDSS/DSC enabled HF and a GMDSS enabled Satellite device.

As a further guide there is a regulation called AMSA Marine Order 52 (Yachts and training vessels) attatached to subsection 342(1) of the Navigation Act 2012 that came into effect in 2016. This addresses compliance certification of yachts greater than 24 metres (78'), 150 gross tonnes or more, in commercial use for sport or pleasure and not carrying more than 12 passengers. This generally adopts the UK Large Commercial Yacht Code (the LY3 Code). Marine Order 27 deals with communication equipment for a vessel of this type. The same long range communication equipment as for a Non SOLAS commercial vessel would apply on the race course.

The above comparison shows the S2H race requirements of a Voice HF and Satelite phone and no GMDSS capability are pretty reasonable and not excessive by comparison to their commercial cousins if they were out there on the race track at the same time.

Therefore the question really is should the S2H be catagorised as Cat 1? Elsewhere similiar  long offshore races are Category 2 (Fastnet Race) and where trans ocean races are Category 1 (RORC Transatlantic Race). The RORC also modifies the standard regs to increase the gap between Cat 1 and Cat 2 requirements.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

Speaking of the 2018 Transatlantic Race that kicks of this weekend and things RORC...they have a annual gong for 'Yacht of the Year". Seems they don't mind looking offshore for nominations. Matt Allen and Ichi took it out

"Winning the Brisbane to Gladstone Race, the Rolex Sydney Hobart, and the Sydney Gold Coast Race. Ichi Ban's series of results, in the three major Ocean races in Australia, has never been matched. Howth Yacht Club ex-pat Gordon Maguire is a key member of Ichi Ban's crew"

"On behalf of the whole crew of Ichi Ban, we are absolutely thrilled to win RORC Yacht of the Year," commented Matt Allen. "It is a great thrill for us, especially from the other side of the world. I really want to thank the panel for voting for us and thank you to the RORC for thinking so internationally, as you have always done over many decades. The RORC boat Rani was the instigator of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Race back in 1945."

https://afloat.ie/sail/sailing-clubs/royal-ocean-racing-club/item/41122-rumball-boyd-feted-for-round-ireland-race-rescue-at-rorc-prizegiving

[Flatbag 51]

10 hours ago, hoppy said:

I don't mind it when he's being a know it all cunt, but when he starts acting like a obnoxious cunt hiding behind his anonymity, that crosses the line.

 

This is more like the Anarchy we know and love. Back to the essence of what this place has always been about.

Cunts calling other cunts, cunts.

Excellent work. Carry on lads.

 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

[TUBBY 336]

4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

S2H - second best thing about, Christmas. I see Jack's on form. That's reassuring. :-)

Around here Christmas is just the day before Hobart starts!

My daughter took a little convincing of the relative importances when she was younger, but is coming around now, (she's 22).

[Potter 693]

9 hours ago, terrafirma said:

As I understand it they are designed not to activate via a wave on deck. There is some sort of flotation trigger. False alarms may occur now and then but someone keeps telling me isn't it better to be safe than sorry? 

The danger is crying wolf. The more false starts the slower the response to a real alert. Auto switches are not reliable enough yet. 

[SCANAS 527]

Yep & if you did get a false set off (because it’s windy & you’ve got waves coming over the deck) are you going to know before the chopper comes overhead, assuming it’s all on & you aren’t monitoring the comps also are you really going to repack the auto device in the middle of all that. 

[Snowden 356]

10 hours ago, terrafirma said:

As I understand it they are designed not to activate via a wave on deck. There is some sort of flotation trigger. False alarms may occur now and then but someone keeps telling me isn't it better to be safe than sorry? 

Designed not to, but in practice they do. Loads of them going off in this year's Round Ireland with no associated MOB.

[Snowden 356]

1 minute ago, hoppy said:

PLB's or just AIS MOB's?

AIS MOB, i.e. the auto-activated ones.

[JonRowe 804]

There are enough manual false alarms for PLBs (being switched on in pockets etc) that they make a point of reminding everyone they will be called on the sat phone when they do go off... Definitely more design work needed to go auto...

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

The auto switching of 406 PLB's (along  with some other issues) has been tied up with the US Federal Communications Commission/Radio Technical Commission for Maritime Services (RTCM) Stsndards and SOLAS for specs for the last 2/3 years.

However this is not in the form of a standalone unit but a Combined 406/AIS PLB device. It will probably be in this combined form factor that auto switching the 406 signal will first appear, if at all.

Note.

The first combined device to come out will be probably this crowds 4 frequency device and then only for commercial vessels first, not the recreation market and only then when the form size is PLB friendly. While it says released here in this 2 year old article, it is bogged down in approval stuff.

https://www.maritimejournal.com/news101/industry-news/first-four-frequency-epirbs-launched

[JonRowe 804]

I like having two personally, feels more reassuring having "alternatives", although the Volvo crews had two AIS and a PLB from memory, so maybe an AIS beacon and a combined would make more sense for them?

 

The main problem with HF in the S2H has the ridiculous check requirements, you have to get it working with one dodgy marine rescue transceiver thats not going to be the main source of help in a crisis? They did allow boats that had successfully performed scheds in other races to bypass that at one point, does anyone know if they're doing so this year? (e.g bypass the marine rescue radio check requirement if you were 5/5 in the BWPS scheds?) Ongoing practical checks like that make more sense to me...

[Livia 748]

Anyone that complains about HF is just an ignorant dick that does not understand how HF works and can’t be fucked learning about it.

That includes race committees.

Like the Keppel Race a few years ago that had a midday sked on 2 MHz to Charleville. THat was just ignorance.

So having used HF for almost 40 years now here are a few tips on the installation which is usually the first problem to deal with.

Put the auto tuner as close to the antenna base a possible, like right under it.

Ignition cable is best for this lead due to better insulation.

Hard wire the set straight to the batteries Over the shortest distance.

Disconnect and clean the ground plane at least twice a year.

Most HF problems are connection problems.

Have batteries at max before transmission so charge just before or durring the sked

Take time to learn about propagation so you understand why you use which frequency.

There are so  few things that HF users will argue about but one is never have a continuous plane perpendicular or the antenna so always put a rope lashing in the lifelines.

But as there say HF is sometimes more art than science

Also understand your set for instance which is why you often miss the first part of a transmission, that is operator error.

Lastly, older sets such some Codans were built to an AUS standard ( for military use) and can nave twice the output of a flash new ICOM built to the international standard.

[Third Reef 26]

55 minutes ago, lydia said:

So having used HF for almost 40 years now here are a few tips on the installation which is usually the first problem to deal with.

There are so  few things that HF users will argue about but one is never have a continuous plane perpendicular or the antenna so always put a rope lashing in the lifelines.

 

Thanks Good advice.

Could you expland on this last point ? I don’t quite understand. How do you lash the life lines ?

3R

[Livia 748]

 It has also struck me that there are needless DSQs in the Hobart with the Green Cape rule.

Although it has not happened to me, I have wondered about this.

You have to use ch 608 from memory (which is duplex but that should not matter with this)

But if you were trying to call on ch 608 in the middle of the day to the Radio vessel if you where say 80 to 120 miles away you would be too far for line of sight but most importantly too close to land a 6 MHz transmission. (whereas over 250 miles would be fine)

That is why boats have complained that they could call Sydney and other coast stations for instance but not the Radio vessel but got a dsq.

So there is nothing wrong with the set just the wrong frequency is prescribed for that distance for that time of day.

Transmission on 2mhz would most likely work , say use 2524 for instance.

My 20 cents!

 

[Livia 748]

19 minutes ago, Third Reef said:

Thanks Good advice.

Could you expland on this last point ? I don’t quite understand. How do you lash the life lines ?

3R

TR, use VB cord lashing so you does not have an unbroken conductive plane (ie lifeline secured with turnbuckles for instance) at right angles to the antenna.

That said a friend uses his forestay and backstay as his antenna together with the perpendicular plane. But his boat is steel.

So more art than science.

Be interesting to use a whole carbon TP2 with carbon rigging as an antenna to see how it works.

[duncan (the other one) 670]

2 hours ago, lydia said:

Be interesting to use a whole carbon TP2 with carbon rigging as an antenna to see how it works.

badly, I suspect.

The probability of having an unbroken conductor end to end in the hull is pretty low. Lots of little semi-insulated segments instead.

You'd risk creating a hotspot somewhere and damaging the laminate.

For the rigging, carbon is a very lossy conductor;  the impact of damaging it with RF power is somewhat more catastrophic.

[Livia 748]

DD

I did not say it would work perfectly it was just curiousity

L

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

4 hours ago, lydia said:

Lastly, older sets such some Codans were built to an AUS standard ( for military use) and can nave twice the output of a flash new ICOM built to the international standard.

Actually not right and things haven't changed.

There is no such thing as an international marine standard. One of the reasons why HF is so expensive is there are currently 2/3 country commication authority standards in play so of the one model, 2/3 versions have to be produced, Australia has the best and is why Aust pay around $1k more than their US counterpart for the same model.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

4 hours ago, lydia said:

It has also struck me that there are needless DSQs in the Hobart with the Green Cape rule......That is why boats have complained that they could call Sydney and other coast stations for instance but not the Radio vessel but got a dsq...

The RC could reduce that probability today by allowing those with a GMDSS/DSC HF set on board to simply send their "passing Green Cape" as a digital page, not as a voice message.

It is boat (MMSI) to boat (MMSI)/Land Station specific communication, guaranteed to get through, will be automatically resent for up to 5 minutes until a digital acknowledgement is recieved via a dedicated DSC watchkeeping receiver (which automaticaly scans all MF/HF DSC channels in rapid sequence). An audible alarm is activated when DSC messages are received.

This transmission to recieve process should take less than 10 seconds.

Voice communication with the RC could then be initiated if desired by responding on the voice working channel indicated with that digital acknowledgement or page. 

The days of trying different channels at message initiation, a HF squarking noisely away on standby and wondering if your message has got through are long gone. This HF paging procedure is virtually identical to than used between GMDSS/Inmarsat C terminals.

[Chucky 36]

7 hours ago, lydia said:

Anyone that complains about HF is just an ignorant dick that does not understand how HF works and can’t be fucked learning about it.

That includes race committees.

Like the Keppel Race a few years ago that had a midday sked on 2 MHz to Charleville. THat was just ignorance.

So having used HF for almost 40 years now here are a few tips on the installation which is usually the first problem to deal with.

Put the auto tuner as close to the antenna base a possible, like right under it.

Ignition cable is best for this lead due to better insulation.

Hard wire the set straight to the batteries Over the shortest distance.

Disconnect and clean the ground plane at least twice a year.

Most HF problems are connection problems.

Have batteries at max before transmission so charge just before or durring the sked

Take time to learn about propagation so you understand why you use which frequency.

There are so  few things that HF users will argue about but one is never have a continuous plane perpendicular or the antenna so always put a rope lashing in the lifelines.

But as there say HF is sometimes more art than science

Also understand your set for instance which is why you often miss the first part of a transmission, that is operator error.

Lastly, older sets such some Codans were built to an AUS standard ( for military use) and can nave twice the output of a flash new ICOM built to the international standard.

I agree about the Codan HF radios, the HF unit I have on my boat is always one of the best transmitted signals when we are racing in fleets of around 12 boats compared to the others with Icom radios. I find the HF radios excellent when set up correctly as Lydia has stated above. I could not believe how well my radio reception was in Osaka bay talking to Charleeville radio! 

[SCANAS 527]

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 via a dedicated DSC watchkeeping receiver (which automaticaly scans all MF/HF DSC channels in rapid sequence). 

Ahh, is that how that works! 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

9 hours ago, lydia said:

Lastly, older sets such some Codans were built to an AUS standard ( for military use) and can nave twice the output of a flash new ICOM built to the international standard.

 

1 hour ago, Chucky said:

I agree about the Codan HF radios, the HF unit I have on my boat is always one of the best transmitted signals when we are racing in fleets of around 12 boats compared to the others with Icom radios. 

I suspect a old Codan 9390 rated at 125w PEP output. Codan have now departed the marine recreational class HF party. The Icom equivalent then and today is the same 125w PEP output.

There is no international standard. Maximum transmitting power and others are features not plucked out of the air by manufacturers, but is specified by the communication authority for each country having regard to its standards and those set by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) and then pulled together and nominated by that country for the particular classes of Ship Station Licences. Manufactures then build to match a country's standard.

So actually what you have is not a more powerful transciever by brand comparison but a better installed and maintained system incl energy source compared to others.

[Recidivist 626]

8 hours ago, lydia said:

... never have a continuous plane perpendicular or the antenna so always put a rope lashing in the lifelines.

 

I had never heard of this!!!!

And apart from using HFs for a decade longer than you Lydia, I also was a Radio Tech with DCA for 13 years, and worked on many HF installations (including building the new HF Transmitter Station in Darwin after Tracy).  I can see the issue, but fark, the things you learn here!!  I DID know enough to never take a leak over the side while holding the capshroud if it was sched time ...

The corollary of this is using the lifelines AS the antenna, as Thunderbolt did in '69 or '70 when dismasted in the Hobart.  They were closer to NZ than OZ when they were finally forced to Mayday, but the signal got through - horizontally polarised rather than vertically, but it worked when they didn't have many options left!

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

Ahh, is that how that works! 

You are now ahead of the pack incl those that have them installed, who when complaining they can't get it to work, don't realise it has a seperate DSC receiver requiring  it's own small receiver antenna.

[Grogo 6]

2 hours ago, Recidivist said:

I had never heard of this!!!!

And apart from using HFs for a decade longer than you Lydia, I also was a Radio Tech with DCA for 13 years, and worked on many HF installations (including building the new HF Transmitter Station in Darwin after Tracy).  I can see the issue, but fark, the things you learn here!!  I DID know enough to never take a leak over the side while holding the capshroud if it was sched time ...

The corollary of this is using the lifelines AS the antenna, as Thunderbolt did in '69 or '70 when dismasted in the Hobart.  They were closer to NZ than OZ when they were finally forced to Mayday, but the signal got through - horizontally polarised rather than vertically, but it worked when they didn't have many options left!

Yes it worked all right. I was picking them up on my dads boat and passing their comms onto the Mother ship on guess what? Yep a Codan

[Livia 748]

R

Not sure if is folk law or actually has scientific basis but I always follow the rule.

Works for me!

What do you think, be interested to know.

L

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

2 hours ago, Grogo said:

... I was picking them up on my dads boat and passing their comms onto the Mother ship on guess what? Yep a Codan

Great story.

However the backstory to your Codan enforcement.

Having regard to tarriff protection and exchange rates in the 1960's early 70's in Australia/NZ  there was only one recognised maker of HF radios, a company called EILCO. So as a consequence of that they were the principal if only supplier to both marine and terrestrial HF users like the Royal Flying Doctor Service etc. I was patched up as a kid by such a service, though I don't recall asking their brand of radio at the time.

So in the era you speak of you either had a EILCO/Codan HF in Australasia or you had two jam tins and a piece of string.

Around the late 1960's EILCO formed a joint venture with I think a Hong Kong crowd called Associated Electronics Services to advance HF radio further with a view to not just supply domestically but export. They called that joint venture "Codan".

Years passed and Codan flourished but courtesy of a double edged sword being at the time a Labour/Left leaning government  engaged in financial deregulation and removing trade barriers etc. The net result is other HF manufacturers got access to the Australian domestic market.

Notwithstanding that Codan were an international player and still remained a manufacturer of choice for local domestic recreational consumption. However that only lasted up to around the introduction of GMDSS in the early 2000's.

GMDSS mandated DSC HF and Satelite on SOLAS (>300 tonne) vessels from then. The result was all but one manufacture world wide of HF radios including Codan to this day departed the recreational HF Marine space. Around then and after GST in Australia got into full swing in late 90's wiping import tarriffs, Coden listed on the Australian Stock Exchange and started chasing military contracts, where to this day they are signigicant but a small player. You can buy shares in Codan today, closing price today is $2.99 and they are looking a bit sick.

The only company remaining in the recreational HF space world wide is the high end Japanese company ICOM. ICOM have always been a few years ahead of players like Codan in the HF marine space. If you want to buy a recreational class DSC HF today your choice is ICOM or ICOM. That begs the question if a ICOM  Board meeting happened tomorrow where they called it quits, where does it leave people enjoying a low cost digital and GMDSS platform?

So yes "Codan" were a force and the only force 50 years ago but doing brand name endorsements for Codan like you and @lydia and @Chucky are saying now is like repeating your great great grandfather told you the gearbox on the Model T was smooth. 

My apologies to those who I offend carrying the HF conch, knowing history and current tech is my weakness. My biggest fear is no one will grab the history conch when everyone is dialing the moon on their cell phone. Those fuckers will forget that Itlalian Guglielmo Marconi or his Serbian rival Nikola Tesla existed inventing a thing called HF radio. 

[Terry Hollis 341]

I think the discrepancy between PEP rating and actual performance of transmission can be explained by the fact that PEP is not a reliable measure of performance.

"Peak envelope power (PEP) is the highest envelope power supplied to the antenna transmission lineby a transmitter during any full undistorted RF cycle or series of complete radio frequency cycles. PEP is normally considered the occasional or continuously repeating crest of the modulation envelope under normal operating conditions"

The real measure of performance is the average power output ..

PEP was often used in non-broadcast AM applications because it most accurately described the potential of mobile transmitters to interfere with each other. Its use is now somewhat deprecated, with the average transmitter power output (or sometimes effective radiated power) now typically being preferred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_envelope_power

[SCANAS 527]

Now we just need to solve the price problem! 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

21 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I think the discrepancy between PEP rating and actual performance of transmission can be explained by the fact that PEP is not a reliable measure of performance.

I think the point you miss replying to my post is one of addressing the notion some current international standard applies where it is national regulatory authorities nominating things like power standards, IP rating of a Transciever etc and they then measure every manufacturer of each HF model incl power at varying frequencies before that manufacturer gets their gear approved and each country is different. Performance in real life is another measure.

The point of your post is what? Gobblygook?

[Francis Vaughan 636]

PEP is both a measure of the power delivered, and also a measure of what a transmitter can achieve. For specs, it is the latter. No big deal. 125W PEP is ultimately a surrogate measure of the voltage rail of the power amp. What will matter is that your transceiver's power amp can keep up that power and not overheat, but more importantly that your installation is up to the job. There are plenty of ways to screw up getting the power from the transceiver to the aether. If you add a compressor to the audio used for modulation you get a higher average power, which remains limited by the PEP the amplifier is capable of. I would not be surprised that better care and feeding of the audio is part of what make the better tranceivers better. The trouble with AM is that it makes poor use of the available power, but OTOH, it is very difficult to screw up, and anyone can receive it. SSB gets you four times as much radiated information, but is more finicky. 

Re the bit about a break in the lifelines. I very much doubt it is anything to do with a perpendicular groundplane. Indeed, if you are sorting an antenna out, a groundplane perpendicular to the antenna is precisely what you want. However a nice large shorted turn next to your antenna is not going to be a happy idea. It could act in all manner of ways, depending upon its geometry and the frequency in use. But it is going to be pretty unlikely that any of the modes you will get will be a good thing. Mostly it will just couple to your antenna and suck power out of the aether. On boats with a conductive hull you can have similar issues with rigging.  A nice big steel hull OTOH can make a nice groundplane, and for frequencies high enough, you will get a noticeable increase in gain from the antenna in those directions that the hull is acting as a groundplane. ETA - and of course it couples to the water, which becomes your ultimate groundplane.

 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

2 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Now we just need to solve the price problem! 

Scan that is a very good question about HF.

I will use my two comments upthread as follows for guidance as to any debate where things might end up in terms of relevancy, price and availability of DSC HF for offshore sailing.

On 11/18/2018 at 12:25 PM, jack_sparrow said:

This year Inmarsat also got its Fleet Safety system GMDSS approved which is delivered over their FleetBroadband and the cheaper Fleet One platform. Inmarsat's monopoly has also been broken as GMDSS approval has also been granted to Iridium recently.

With that competive tension and wider equip/data plan choices hopefully we might see GMDSS enabled communications gear and as stipulated in Offshore Regs for around 5 years now finally become affordable. If nothing else it will relieve RC's of the burdan of concocting workarounds using Non-GMDSS enabled equipment like Voice HF and Satphones.

 

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The only company remaining in the recreational HF space world wide is the high end Japanese company ICOM. ICOM have always been a few years ahead of players like Codan in the HF marine space. If you want to buy a recreational class DSC HF today your choice is ICOM or ICOM. That begs the question if a ICOM  Board meeting happened tomorrow where they called it quits, where does it leave people enjoying a low cost digital and GMDSS platform?

Make a guess mate where cost and outcome might end up after regulatory mucking around, maybe enterprise A gobbling up enterprise B blah blah ?

The subject of future communications for offshore but not quite offshore race boats remains a fuckin picnic until something gives commercialy is my guess.

[Grogo 6]

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Great story.

However the backstory to your Codan enforcement.

Having regard to tarriff protection and exchange rates in the 1960's early 70's in Australia/NZ  there was only one recognised maker of HF radios, a company called EILCO. So as a consequence of that they were the principal if only supplier to both marine and terrestrial HF users like the Royal Flying Doctor Service etc. I was patched up as a kid by such a service, though I don't recall asking their brand of radio at the time.

So in the era you speak of you either had a EILCO/Codan HF in Australasia or you had two jam tins and a piece of string.

Around the late 1960's EILCO formed a joint venture with I think a Hong Kong crowd called Associated Electronics Services to advance HF radio further with a view to not just supply domestically but export. They called that joint venture "Codan".

Years passed and Codan flourished but courtesy of a double edged sword being at the time a Labour/Left leaning government  engaged in financial deregulation and removing trade barriers etc. The net result is other HF manufacturers got access to the Australian domestic market.

Notwithstanding that Codan were an international player and still remained a manufacturer of choice for local domestic recreational consumption. However that only lasted up to around the introduction of GMDSS in the early 2000's.

GMDSS mandated DSC HF and Satelite on SOLAS (>300 tonne) vessels from then. The result was all but one manufacture world wide of HF radios including Codan to this day departed the recreational HF Marine space. Around then and after GST in Australia got into full swing in late 90's wiping import tarriffs, Coden listed on the Australian Stock Exchange and started chasing military contracts, where to this day they are signigicant but a small player. You can buy shares in Codan today, closing price today is $2.99 and they are looking a bit sick.

The only company remaining in the recreational HF space world wide is the high end Japanese company ICOM. ICOM have always been a few years ahead of players like Codan in the HF marine space. If you want to buy a recreational class DSC HF today your choice is ICOM or ICOM. That begs the question if a ICOM  Board meeting happened tomorrow where they called it quits, where does it leave people enjoying a low cost digital and GMDSS platform?

So yes "Codan" were a force and the only force 50 years ago but doing brand name endorsements for Codan like you and @lydia and @Chucky are saying now is like repeating your great great grandfather told you the gearbox on the Model T was smooth. 

My apologies to those who I offend carrying the HF conch, knowing history and current tech is my weakness. My biggest fear is no one will grab the history conch when everyone is dialing the moon on their cell phone. Those fuckers will forget that Itlalian Guglielmo Marconi or his Serbian rival Nikola Tesla existed inventing a thing called HF radio. 

I'm not enforcing or endorsing anything., I was just stating a fact. Sheech ...

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

54 minutes ago, Grogo said:

I'm not enforcing or endorsing anything., I was just stating a fact. Sheech ...

Sorry only taking your words"Yep a Codan" as a reply indicating your agreement and endorsement of Codan...then me taking it as an invitation to blurt out some knowledge which probably bores most senseless. No slight to you or any Codan lovers intended. Cheers.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

4 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

PEP is both a measure of the power delivered, and also a measure of what a transmitter can achieve. For specs, it is the latter. No big deal. 125W PEP is ultimately a surrogate measure of the voltage rail of the power amp....

Hear what your saying Francis but this is the wrong room to debate... probably above my big head even, however what you say as follows is probably more relevant to posts upthread.

4 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Re the bit about a break in the lifelines. I very much doubt it is anything to do with a perpendicular groundplane. Indeed, if you are sorting an antenna out, a groundplane perpendicular to the antenna is precisely what you want. However a nice large shorted turn next to your antenna is not going to be a happy idea. It could act in all manner of ways, depending upon its geometry and the frequency in use. But it is going to be pretty unlikely that any of the modes you will get will be a good thing. Mostly it will just couple to your antenna and suck power out of the aether. On boats with a conductive hull you can have similar issues with rigging.  A nice big steel hull OTOH can make a nice groundplane, and for frequencies high enough, you will get a noticeable increase in gain from the antenna in those directions that the hull is acting as a groundplane. ETA - and of course it couples to the water, which becomes your ultimate groundplane.

First @lydia identifies very well most but not all things that need to be addressed to make a HF system work and states the reality that debate about HF amoungst enthusiasts is crazy monkey stuff.

Drawing upon his "lifeline isolation" tip you refer and to @Recidivist post as follows where my guess he has forgotten more about HF than I know.

 

10 hours ago, Recidivist said:

The corollary of this is using the lifelines AS the antenna, as Thunderbolt did in '69 or '70 when dismasted in the Hobart.  They were closer to NZ than OZ when they were finally forced to Mayday, but the signal got through - horizontally polarised rather than vertically, but it worked when they didn't have many options left!

In my experience the problems people experience with HF is the emphasis they place on a HF Antenna and not the ground plane. That can be achieved by capturing the ocean in a steel boat, a plastic boat using a ground plate or a radial setup either internal using ladder wire or as simple as using S/S lifelines. No better example of the antenna getting undue emphasis is that with a decent ocean ground plane but shit antenna in the form of lifelines that in the example  @Recidivist refers they were able to successfully communicate after a dismasting and losing their antenna.

Securing s decent ground plane even if it just doing simple things like cleaning a ground plate in a plastic boat or isolating lashings that @lydia refers to if it is a external radial setup etc can make a monumental difference to HF operation and efficiency.

Maybe it is $1k worth of isolators sitting in a wire backstay antenna that makes people think that is the sole key?

 

[longy 580]

Being only a poor worker toiling in the trenches - almost every SSB transmit problem I've worked on came down too a poor ground plane. Miracle 'sintered plates' or wacko ham antenna concepts just don't compare to an automatic antenna tuner, a long wire antenna & a proper ground plane. Even Gordon West, a west coast (USA) "guru" of radios for the cruising fleet, finally, after many years of claiming minimal ground planes were OK, finally admits in print that for full long range communication as full ground plane installation is crucial.

Many of the remaining problems were poor power supplies to the radio. Very few were actually failures in the equipment.

[Livia 748]

Agree in that the first place I look for problems is ground plane followed by power supply.

It is rarely equipment and when it is it usually the auto tuner has got wet.

For those who don’t get what the tuner does, it changes the antenna length to suit frequency as a frequency has a optimum antenna length.

In olden days you had manual tuners.

Also ideally I use a cable (can't think of name right now) but the fuse is an integral part of the cable so no connections at all in the hard wired power cable.

Also wire brush every connection and use conductive paste you can buy from the electronics store.

Attention to detail is everything for getting the power out as in the scheme of things you are sending out a very tiny signal with a very small power supply.

Some say connect to start battery not the house as house will be deep cycle so better immediate power supply.

Helped a bloke one who kept saying the set did not transmit when he held the mic key down as the transmission led did not come on.

Had to tell him nothing wrong but he did have to speak

Also some boats are just better than others, don;t ask me why.

Young Scanas is doing Hobart on the Rumcar and right from minute one that set up was a cracker.

Relayed transmissions from hundred of mile away, acted a back up radio vessel for yacht races when we where miles way.. Did an informal sked for boats returning from Osaka from in the marina.

Here is another Hobart radio tip.

If you still have to call Newcastle radio as a radio test don;t try to do it from the inside berths at the CYCA.

The signal will not get out through all the rigs around you.

Be on an end finger or go for steam in the harbour to do it and try it very late at night or very early morning.

 

 

 

[Recidivist 626]

3 hours ago, longy said:

Being only a poor worker toiling in the trenches ...

 

Re the closed loop (eg lifelines) in the vicinity of the antenna - I can see that this could be an energy sucker, but I wonder how much.  Induction is certainly a real issue - I once got a hell of a boot from a capshroud when lightning struck 2 miles away.  But consider this - if a boat has grounding to it's capshrouds for lightning protection, and uses a backstay as an HF antenna, why isn't almost all radiated energy conducted away by induction? Well, certainly in that direction of the radiation lobe anyway.

If we now look at the case where the induction plane is at right angles to the antenna - eg lifelines with continuous conductivity - that is in the opposite polarisation and I would expect that induction would be minimal, but of course coverage of the lobe is much greater.

Of course, HF radiation is highly affected by atmospherics, so polarisation tends to become circular as a wave propagates.  This is why Thunderbolt's message could be picked up by a vertical antenna although radiated horizontally. Incidentally, HF antennae on aeroplanes were horizontal also, but the ground station antennae were vertical, and that worked also.  

Bugger, now I'm going to lose sleep over this ...

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

2 hours ago, lydia said:

Some say connect to start battery not the house as house will be deep cycle so better immediate power supply.

The Cold Crank Capacity of a true deep cycle versus purpose starting battery construction is around a 20% difference if they are of the same size at the same state of charge. However a larger battery irrespective of construction will have a much greater crank capacity than a smaller one.

Therefore this technique of using a start battery to power HF only really applicable if the two banks were close to the same size. Even then I would be reluctant to tap into it for the reason you have a dedicated start battery in the first place. Much better to time HF communications around your charging cycle. That said emergency communications don't follow a charging cycle and Murphy being Murphy.

[shaggybaxter 1,876]

Fuck I love this place. (sorry LB, had to borrow it) 

Ever seen Jamie Lee Curtis in a Fish called Wanda? 

I'm in techo heaven. Lemme wallow about in this and get more comfortable....oh dear.

Tissues.....now where were those tissues...

 

 

 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

Team Scally training for Hobart on the Orma.. interesting approach.

 

[Bill E Goat 303]

Maybe they are getting ready for 2075 when the CYCA lets multis in

[Livia 748]

31 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

 

Re the closed loop (eg lifelines) in the vicinity of the antenna - I can see that this could be an energy sucker, but I wonder how much.  Induction is certainly a real issue - I once got a hell of a boot from a capshroud when lightning struck 2 miles away.  But consider this - if a boat has grounding to it's capshrouds for lightning protection, and uses a backstay as an HF antenna, why isn't almost all radiated energy conducted away by induction? Well, certainly in that direction of the radiation lobe anyway.

If we now look at the case where the induction plane is at right angles to the antenna - eg lifelines with continuous conductivity - that is in the opposite polarisation and I would expect that induction would be minimal, but of course coverage of the lobe is much greater.

Of course, HF radiation is highly affected by atmospherics, so polarisation tends to become circular as a wave propagates.  This is why Thunderbolt's message could be picked up by a vertical antenna although radiated horizontally. Incidentally, HF antennae on aeroplanes were horizontal also, but the ground station antennae were vertical, and that worked also.  

Bugger, now I'm going to lose sleep over this ...

Sorry mate but there you go, the art and science of HF installation.

The energy sucker argument was the one first explain to me btw.

This thread is why I really get the shits big time when some fucker race committee says I need a Radio Certificate from some dum ass electrician who charges me $100.00 but knows nothing about HF.

I had one fucker come down to the boat, try to transmit 20 miles up the coast to a coast guard station that did not monitor 4 MHz HF, got no response and said "I seems Ok" gave me the certificate and took my money.

Race Committee happy.

Race Committee could no understand why I was pissed.

 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

12 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Ever seen Jamie Lee Curtis in a Fish called Wanda? 

She has a a few spots in the Top Ten Most Paused Movie Scenes 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

This year's teaser...comfortably skirts around last year's podium shuffle.

 

 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

5 hours ago, longy said:

Even Gordon West, a west coast (USA) "guru" of radios for the cruising fleet, finally, after many years of claiming minimal ground planes were OK, finally admits in print that for full long range communication as full ground plane installation is crucial.

Commander Terry Sparks another US HF guru has produced some good books. He is a fan of using a radial wire counterpoise not a ground plate/the ocean and in particular this product that does much the same as a DIY using ladder wire under the gunwale down each side or lifelines on a raceboat but hopefully for the money works better.

http://www.kiss-ssb.com

[PIL66 - XL2 937]

12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

...then me taking it as an invitation to blurt out some knowledge which probably bores most senseless.

Sometimes but mostly not......... mostly

1 hour ago, Bill E Goat said:

Maybe they are getting ready for 2075 when the CYCA lets multis in

We still have a chance this year...... if not... definitely next....

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

She has a a few spots in the Top Ten Most Paused Movie Scenes 

I'm partial to the "Trading Places" scene ..... you know the one...

[Rushman 241]

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Team Scally training for Hobart on the Orma.. interesting approach.

 

Isn't the 100' Scallywag already in Sydney?

[southerncross 3,901]

Jamie Lee lived up the street.  I moved.  She still lives there.  Looking good still twenty years later.  Always sweet and good for a laugh.  

"Jamie", I said.  "That kissing scene in Wanda was one of the best I've ever seen."  

"Nice try", she said laughing.  

I also asked if she ever needed help with the gardening.  

[bigrpowr 229]

34 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Jamie Lee lived up the street.  I moved.  She still lives there.  Looking good still twenty years later.  Always sweet and good for a laugh.  

"Jamie", I said.  "That kissing scene in Wanda was one of the best I've ever seen."  

"Nice try", she said laughing.  

I also asked if she ever needed help with the gardening.  

you still in the canyon ?

[southerncross 3,901]

Just now, bigrpowr said:

you still in the canyon ?

No.  I moved last summer, luckily.  Would have been locked out by the Woolsey Fire for a week.

[bigrpowr 229]

15 minutes ago, southerncross said:

No.  I moved last summer, luckily.  Would have been locked out by the Woolsey Fire for a week.

lost my moms house in westlake to that fucking fire. was near the corner of kanan and westlake. been a shitty week.

[southerncross 3,901]

Just now, bigrpowr said:

lost my moms house in westlake to that fucking fire. was near the corner of kanan and westlake. been a shitty week.

Very, very sorry to hear that.  

[bigrpowr 229]

2 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Very, very sorry to hear that.  

appreciate that. i went to cars and coffee sunday  at will rodgers and there were a bunch of swimmers , i wondered if you were out there. malibu looked like a fucking war zone .

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

Man you guys get hammered...it was mudslides earllier in the year I recall 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

1 hour ago, Rushman said:

Isn't the 100' Scallywag already in Sydney?

Yep

[bigrpowr 229]

12 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Man you guys get hammered...it was mudslides earllier in the year I recall 

calling for mudslides in the burn areas tomorrow. fall is a crazy crossover of santa ana conditions  ( hot, dry , windy) and then subside to normal fall , cooler , possibly wet. after it burns, you can piss on a hillside and cause a slide with all the vegetation gone. sucks.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

Bummer. Mate you going to have to blame your ancestors 

[Flatbag 51]

On 11/19/2018 at 6:12 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Yes, you do. Fluently and frequently.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

Sorry but I can only write in Cuntanese.

 

[longy 580]

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Commander Terry Sparks another US HF guru has produced some good books. He is a fan of using a radial wire counterpoise not a ground plate/the ocean and in particular this product that does much the same as a DIY using ladder wire under the gunwale down each side or lifelines on a raceboat but hopefully for the money works better.

http://www.kiss-ssb.com

  We actually did a direct test of that on a recent passage to Marquesas. Boat had a normal ground plane of copper strap, and the owner had a very good feel for his SSB performance as it got used (sailmail) every night. We disconected the copper & hooked up the KISS wiring. Performance degraded a bit.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

1 hour ago, longy said:

We disconected the copper & hooked up the KISS wiring. Performance degraded a bit.

Longy that is interesting. I installed a home made ladder wire radial counterpoise with not a lot of science attached to and with someone who had an analyser tested it against a traditional copper strapped ground plate and got the same sort of outcome. They were pretty close at lower frequencies and the difference increased the higher the frequency. Also being installed under the gunwale there was clearly more interference from other electronics etc. Maybe this KISS thing is slightly better than my DIY.

I came to the conclusion a radial counterpoise would be attractive to someone not having a ground plate or for racers, however for a cruiser the traditional ground plate the way to go if they already had a suitable one in place.

Probably goes to show there is no such thing as a HF magic pudding.

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

Went digging for some quantitative testing and opinion pieces on the KISS counterpoise for anyone interested. The upshot seems to be a ground plate may be marginally superior but it is a maintenance item, not as DIY Instal friendly and more costly. The first linky with guy comparative testing against random bits of wire is interesting.

https://briandphoto.net/docs/KA4WJA KISS-SSB Analysis.pdf

https://www.bigdumboat.com/LTS/marion/KissTest.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiV4uWy8OTeAhUEVH0KHULoDcMQFjAGegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1mQ2woOWMWdH9068DSXQMD&cshid=1542783348111

https://www.made-simplefor-cruisers.com/KISS%20and%20Gam%20White%20Paper-2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiV4uWy8OTeAhUEVH0KHULoDcMQFjAEegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0pWS0ldZlL9jQqwpL3r-s0&cshid=1542783348111

[SCANAS 527]

Most boring thread hijack in SA history. 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

38 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Most boring thread hijack in SA history. 

Scan I think it was you who derailed it with the perennial lead up complaint being barriers to participation for the S2H which, following the Flow Chart on the wall behind the bar leads to what those barriers are, then to analysis of them (and that a 50 years ago  reference is a mandatory inclusion for those with grey hair), then the technical shit added to keep @shaggybaxter running out to buy more tissues, and all interspersed with a fight at some point, but always ending with debate on who has has the best pair of tits in the bar....

Mate you need to follow the chart.

[Livia 748]

28 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Most boring thread hijack in SA history. 

Young Scanas, one day soon if you are really unlucky you will really be getting the shit kicked out of you miles from nowhere. Like really bad.

That old Codan 8525 on the Rumcar will be quite important to you.

If for no other reason you will hear the reassuring sound of other people getting the shit kicked out of them.

Youngsters today Jack!

[SCANAS 527]

14 minutes ago, lydia said:

Young Scanas, one day soon if you are really unlucky you will really be getting the shit kicked out of you miles from nowhere. Like really bad.

That old Codan 8525 on the Rumcar will be quite important to you.

If for no other reason you will hear the reassuring sound of other people getting the shit kicked out of them.

Youngsters today Jack!

My brain is small & all this HF info is squeezing out what you taught me about lanolin & rigging last weekend!

In all seriousness I have been listening, have committed into memory to charge batteries before sked, radio test as late in day (or night) away from Marina & separate DSC receiver. 

[jack_sparrow 7,695]

35 minutes ago, lydia said:

Youngsters today Jack!

Lydia the interesting thing is just a few years or so after a thing called the Internet came into being, in 1998 the Smart Phone or even the GoPro hadn't yet been invented.

My guess is if there ever was, heaven forbid, a replay of 98 to happen, then after watching a few "on-board" UTube vids, any discussion about safety shit in SI's being a barrier to race participation would around the world cease overnight.

[Livia 748]

Nothing like a poor HF transmission to transmit the fear in someone’s voice!

Sorry had to be said.

Like 98 just as most emergencies, all semblance of radio discipline just disappeared.

[JonRowe 804]

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Team Scally training for Hobart on the Orma.. interesting approach.

 

Maybe Witty just likes his asian sailing