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Who really believes tariffs are good business


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Wrong! Guess who's price went up? BOTH! I had a $10k budget.  the import was $7500, the domestic were $10k, so, I was going to buy domestic. The DOMESTIC is going up, estimate is 1

My biggest and quite real complaints about China are: their own protectionism their rampant IP theft As for globalism itself, that ship sailed quite awhile ago. The invention of

Agreed - the corporations probably didn't expect to get ripped off as they did, and no argument the Chinese have engaged in industrial espionage on a huge scale. Tariffing their products incorpor

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4 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

President Trump blinked.

Was that before or after his impending political demise flashed before his eyes?

Is there anybody left in the Whitehouse that has the balls left to tell Donnie this whole tariffs bullshit is a really bad idea.

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What if your newest and biggest (by far) customers are from China (mainland) Taiwan, and Belarus..... And your previous USA based customers just cancelled half their orders because of uncertainty in the industry that needs your product?..... Would you rejoice, or be unhappy?......

 Or would you suspect that the US economy is looking at a major slump, while other areas are planning to expand?

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On 8/11/2019 at 8:28 PM, frenchie said:

Harder but much less precarious?.

People make that choice all the time.

 It's easier, most of the time. Civilization is where all the leisure time to build monuments and develop the arts happened. 

  Less precarious? In some ways. However it does compel one to fight like hell to keep what you have from being stolen. Can't just run in the bush and go somewhere else anymore.  

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Can Ttump win the trade war NOT!

some weapons at China's hands,

-devalue the yuan 

-stop sending stuff to US, which would shut down the longshoreman on the west cooast

-Stop buying US debt US T Bonds  (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/ray-dalio-china-could-weaponize-us-treasury-holdings-in-trade-war.html)

-sell all  US bonds for gold

-Rich China men stop buying expensive homes in US

-Stop tourism to the US

-Pass on tariff's to the US consumer

-Stop buying US farm goods/products, (soy beans to john Deere tractors)

-Trump has a short period of time to get this done 2020, China has time on it's side , there thinking long term ,

not the tweet of the day

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Hooray For Tariffs!
 

Quote

 

...

The data are pretty clear. Tariffs are taxes on imports that translate into higher prices for American businesses and consumers. Navarro's claims that Americans aren't paying for them are economically illiterate nonsense. It would be one thing for the Trump administration to claim—as it has on some occasions—that the tariffs are a necessary burden for Americans to bear in pursuit of better trade deals, or as a means to getting China to change its bad behavior. But simply lying about the basic realities of the trade war serves only to undermine whatever strategy the White House is pursuing.

If Navarro's not convinced by the data, maybe he would be convinced by…Peter Navarro.

Last week, after announcing that new tariffs on Chinese imports would be postponed until mid-December to avoid soaking American consumers during the holiday shopping season, Navarro said the maneuver was "a Christmas present to the nation."

But why would that be a Christmas present to Americans if Americans aren't paying for the tariffs?

It's remarkable that the Trump administration has been able to ignore economic reality for as long as it has. But it's now becoming clear—on the stock market, in the polls, and from the White House's own jumbled messaging—that the economists were right all along: Tariffs are taxes, and Americans are footing the bill.

 

I'm as sorry as usual for posting more Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading, of course.

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32 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Hooray For Tariffs!
 

But why would that be a Christmas present to Americans if Americans aren't paying for the tariffs?

Jeebus Christ, you elites and your tedium of logic and reason. Don’t you remember that George W introduced  “creating new realities”? This is that!

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Now it appears that the average American family will pay an extra $1000 because of tariffs on Chinese products. Of course you can't trust the source since it comes from that well-known leftie organization, JP Morgan.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/american-families-trump-china-tariffs-jpmorgan_n_5d5ade7ce4b04e1e14de8a9e

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9 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Now it appears that the average American family will pay an extra $1000 because of tariffs on Chinese products. Of course you can't trust the source since it comes from that well-known leftie organization, JP Morgan.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/american-families-trump-china-tariffs-jpmorgan_n_5d5ade7ce4b04e1e14de8a9e

JPMorgan’s $12 Billion Bailout

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34 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Now it appears that the average American family will pay an extra $1000 because of tariffs on Chinese products. Of course you can't trust the source since it comes from that well-known leftie organization, JP Morgan.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/american-families-trump-china-tariffs-jpmorgan_n_5d5ade7ce4b04e1e14de8a9e

But Alternative Reality Man said that China pays the tariffs. I believe him and I can’t afford to waste time arguing about it because I’m spending more money at Walmart these days and need to work more. 

Franks and beans. 

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One answer to the topic question is definitely NOT Tim Cook.

And he appears to have, at least momentarily, gotten through to Trump on this issue.

Quote

"It's tough for Apple to pay tariffs if it's competing with a very good company that's not," Trump said—apparently realizing something that economists have been trying to tell him for months.

 

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"U.S. stock futures dived Friday after China announced retaliatory tariffs on $75 billion in U.S. goods and reinstated levies on American auto products.

The levies will range from 5 to 10 percent and will be put in place in two rounds, on Sept. 1 and Dec. 15 -- the same dates on which President Trump's latest tariffs on $300 billion in Chinese goods are slated to take effect, the Chinese finance ministry said in a statement. A 25 percent tariff on automobiles and a 5 percent tariff on auto parts will go into effect on Dec. 15.

"China's imposition of tariffs is a forced response to the unilateralism and trade protectionism of the United States," said the Communist Party-run Global Times. The outlet said it hoped the trade conflict would be resolved "on the premise of mutual respect and equality and trustworthiness in words and deeds.

Dow Jones industrial average futures, which had been predicting a 100-point gain at markets' open, sank immediately following the announcement of China's retaliation and now point to a 150-point loss"

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/23/china-hits-us-with-tariffs-billion-worth-goods-reinstates-auto-levies-state-media-report/

 

 

 

Based on what I know, China will take further countermeasures in response to US tariffs on $300 billion Chinese goods. Beijing will soon unveil a plan of imposing retaliatory tariffs on certain US products. China has ammunition to fight back. The US side will feel the pain.

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So, couldn't China simply retaliate by selling all that US Gov debt they own?  Not sure it would be a wise move for them but China is the only reason we can afford so many bombs and F-35's.  To say we don't need China is to completely ignore they are our biggest (or second to Japan) lender.  

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1 minute ago, Swimsailor said:

So, couldn't China simply retaliate by selling all that US Gov debt they own?  Not sure it would be a wise move for them but China is the only reason we can afford so many bombs and F-35's.  To say we don't need China is to completely ignore they are our biggest (or second to Japan) lender.  

We are by far our largest lender.  70% of debt is domestically held.  

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Just now, Swimsailor said:

Righties, see how easy it is to learns something new?

As of 2018 they each hold just over 1 trillion in US debt

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9 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

As of 2018 they each hold just over 1 trillion in US debt

Oh I can see that working out so well for Donnie the bankrupt.

The Saudi’s and the Rooskies already own Donnie’s ass what could possibly go wrong?

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12 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Trump thinks tariffs are a good idea!  He just way upped the crazy with new tariffs now up to 30%.  Lets hope he does the same to the Germans.  We will soon be rid of this meddlesome man!

He is calling them taxes now, so there's that.

Trump Announces Higher Tariffs. At Least He Called Them 'Taxes.'
 

Quote

 

In a series of Friday evening tweets, President Donald Trump announced that he will hike existing tariffs on Chinese imports to 30 percent from 25 percent and will increase the next round of tariffs to 15 percent from 10 percent.

But at least he's finally admitting that tariffs are taxes:

...Trump's rage-tweeting today and his impulsive decision to hike taxes on American businesses and consumers—at a time when he's reportedly worried about a potential recession—is yet more evidence that the trade war with China is anything but "good and easy to win."

 

Offered with the usual apology for posting more Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading.

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Like all wars, this one has been brewing for a long time and we're now pretty much fully engaged.

The Chinese have two more major offensives they can deploy.  The first is the Rare Earth card.  The second is an actual war.  Look for some sort of special legislation indemnifying Mountain Pass, Nevada and putting it under DOE, similar to Hanford, although the true 'Trump' card would be to hand it over to the pentagon which he would likely? be able to do with executive order as an issue of national security.  Rare earths aren't rare - processing them is messy and the western world doesn't like messy so we let the Chinese do it, just like France lets Russia reprocess nuclear waste.  But there's a MASSIVE canyon between 'we can't', and 'don't want too' - we just don't want too.  The Chinese use the process the US developed to refine the stuff.

An "actual" war would most likely be either be a kerfuffle over the South China Sea or an attempt to close off the Taiwan straight or something similar.  I actually expect that to come sometime in the next 24 months.

The bond dump isn't real IMHO.  No one believes the Yuan.  it's not a senior currency for good reason.  The yuan kind of acts like one because there's a trillion dollar reserve of 10-years backing it and because we're still playing nice.  No reserve, no more illusion.  We already know what happens when the shit really hits the fan and NO ONE fled to the Yuan for safety.  NO ONE - ESPECIALLY the Chinese - believe in their currency.  That's why there's a 'two price' system for yaun - just like the Ruble and every other 'sort of' currency - and so much of it is laundered into foreign capitals.  The Yuan Is swimming naked and is exposed badly whenever the tide goes out.

I think the Chinese misread Trump's delay and his goal.  Frankly, I expect to see a 100% tariff on all Chinese goods by election time next year and a FRANTIC effort by Malaysia, Taiwan, So. Korea, and most importantly, India to fill the void.

India is really the wild card in this.  If they can get their shit together fast enough, this is a HUGE win for them.  I'd actually like to see one of the African countries step up and fill the void but I don't think they're  ready yet.  

 

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:

Like all wars, this one has been brewing for a long time and we're now pretty much fully engaged.

The Chinese have two more major offensives they can deploy.  The first is the Rare Earth card.  The second is an actual war.  Look for some sort of special legislation indemnifying Mountain Pass, Nevada and putting it under DOE, similar to Hanford, although the true 'Trump' card would be to hand it over to the pentagon which he would likely? be able to do with executive order as an issue of national security.  Rare earths aren't rare - processing them is messy and the western world doesn't like messy so we let the Chinese do it, just like France lets Russia reprocess nuclear waste.  But there's a MASSIVE canyon between 'we can't', and 'don't want too' - we just don't want too.  The Chinese use the process the US developed to refine the stuff.

An "actual" war would most likely be either be a kerfuffle over the South China Sea or an attempt to close off the Taiwan straight or something similar.  I actually expect that to come sometime in the next 24 months.

The bond dump isn't real IMHO.  No one believes the Yuan.  it's not a senior currency for good reason.  The yuan kind of acts like one because there's a trillion dollar reserve of 10-years backing it and because we're still playing nice.  No reserve, no more illusion.  We already know what happens when the shit really hits the fan and NO ONE fled to the Yuan for safety.  NO ONE - ESPECIALLY the Chinese - believe in their currency.  That's why there's a 'two price' system for yaun - just like the Ruble and every other 'sort of' currency - and so much of it is laundered into foreign capitals.  The Yuan Is swimming naked and is exposed badly whenever the tide goes out.

I think the Chinese misread Trump's delay and his goal.  Frankly, I expect to see a 100% tariff on all Chinese goods by election time next year and a FRANTIC effort by Malaysia, Taiwan, So. Korea, and most importantly, India to fill the void.

India is really the wild card in this.  If they can get their shit together fast enough, this is a HUGE win for them.  I'd actually like to see one of the African countries step up and fill the void but I don't think they're  ready yet.  

 

Actual war in 12 months would get much better ratings and help with the re-election bid. 

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The TPP was all about curbing China''s economic might and forcing them to the table. 

And Trump threw it in the bin because it was an Obama policy. Even though it was working, with 12 regional nations focused on curbing China economically. 

And now Trump is "the chosen one"for having to go it alone in dealing with China.  

(insert pregnant pause here while I digest this a bit...)

So.... you have a boss that is a dumb cunt with a lizard brain that is driven by revenge and spite with a memory like a fish called Dory. You get to toss in a gutless bully and compulsive liar as a little bonus. 

But he had a rich daddy.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.  

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4 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

The TPP was all about curbing China''s economic might and forcing them to the table. 

And Trump threw it in the bin because it was an Obama policy. Even though it was working, with 12 regional nations focused on curbing China economically. 

And now Trump is "the chosen one"for having to go it alone in dealing with China.  

 

So.... you have a boss that is a dumb cunt with a lizard brain that is driven by revenge and spite with a memory like a fish called Dory.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.  

 

Bingo.

The Trumpalos here all seem to think that trying to fight a stupid, sure-to-lose trade war against China somehow makes Trump a hero. But then, they are completely disconnected with the economic facts.

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Bingo.

The Trumpalos here all seem to think that trying to fight a stupid, sure-to-lose trade war against China somehow makes Trump a hero. But then, they are completely disconnected from facts.

- DSK

ftfy

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25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Bingo.

The Trumpalos here all seem to think that trying to fight a stupid, sure-to-lose trade war against China somehow makes Trump a hero. But then, they are completely disconnected with the economic facts.

- DSK

Steam, 

Be careful if you're travelling, there's broken glass everywhere at the moment, and we can hear even from here the Europeans breaking all the plates and furniture pre G7.

What is stunning is the TPP was 7 years in the planning and teasing together of the coalition. 

And he replaces it with diplomacy by tweet and tantrums.   

I mean...just...wow.  

We're all desperately guzzling the Kool-Aid with you guys that this administration has just one collective brain cell, but I gotta tell you it smells and tastes like shit. 

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About the OP question.

What 'business' are you talking about?

Seems to me that the traditional definition of Business is the Big End of Town.  Extrapolating that out, as it has been doing, globalisation has rapidly funneled the resurces to the top 1%.  It's like believing that the Adani coal mine will employ 10,000 people in central Queensland.  That what is good for the 1% is good for everyone else.  Seems to me there is a strong case that the opposite is true.

It makes no sense the import powdered orange juice from Brazil, while Australian citrus growers are going broke.  That we no longer refine our own fuel, that's just dangerous.  Before you know it we will be getting blackmailed into participating in actions we would rather not, by the people who control the oil. 

 

 

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From Reuters

A long read but it gives you an understanding of the incredible stiupidity of Donnie the Bankrupt Dumfucks actions.

 

 
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  •  

(Reuters) - The world’s two largest economies, China and the United States, on Friday exchanged blows in the latest escalation in their trade war that has roiled supply chains and whipsawed financial markets. 

 
 
 
 
China said it would slap retaliatory tariffs on about $75 billion worth of U.S. goods, while President Donald Trump announced a 5 percentage-point hike in tariffs already in place and others set to take effect next month. 

Trump also demanded that U.S. companies take steps to exit China, throwing a new twist into a bitter trade war now in its second year, although Trump cannot legally compel U.S. companies to abandon China immediately.

Beijing’s planned tariffs will add as much as 10% on top of existing rates after Trump said he would impose tariffs on another $300 billion worth of Chinese products.

Washington has long pressed Beijing for wide-ranging economic reforms, including better protection for American intellectual property, ending subsidies that favor Chinese state-owned enterprises, and improving access to China’s markets for U.S. companies.The United States has already imposed tariffs on $250 billion of Chinese imports. Trump has said bad trade deals with China and others have cost millions of American jobs.

Below are some of the costs of Trump’s push to rewrite the terms of global trade with China and other top trade partners:

GLOBAL ECONOMY

Fitch Ratings has estimated that extending tariffs to cover another $300 billion in Chinese goods would chop 0.4% from world economic output.

 

The International Monetary Fund said last month that global trade in the first quarter of 2019 was the slowest since 2012, noting big downside risks for world growth if more tariffs are imposed.

Trump has said China pays the tariffs he has imposed on Chinese goods, but tariffs are paid by U.S.-registered firms when the products enter the United States. Importers often pass the cost onto consumers via higher prices

FARMING & ENERGY

American farmers have been among the hardest hit so far. China is the top market for many of their biggest crops and has hit them with retaliatory tariffs, aiming at U.S. farmers because they helped vote Trump into power.

The trade war has hurt sales of many agricultural products, including fruit, meat and grains. Soybeans are the single biggest U.S. agricultural export, most of which went to China before the trade war.

U.S. soybean exports to China were at their lowest level since 2002 in the January-June period, according to U.S. government data. Pork exports are at a nine-year low, and shipments of U.S. sorghum are down 96% from a 2015 peak.

Corn and soybean futures prices tumbled in response to Beijing’s announcement.

To compensate for lost sales to China, the U.S. government has offered $28 billion in aid to U.S. farmers, of which about $8.6 billion had been doled out as of the end of June.

U.S. crude was also on the list of new Chinese tariffs, causing oil prices to drop on Friday. U.S. crude fell 3.47% to $53.40 per barrel and Brent was last at $58.56, down 2.27%.

TECH

Tech companies were the among the hardest hit on Friday, with tech stocks on the S&P 500 index closing down 3.2% close. The tariff-sensitive Philadelphia chip index .SOX slid 4.4%. Shares of chip manufacturer Nvidia Corp (NVDA.O) lost 5.3% and Apple Inc (AAPL.O) fell 4.6%. 

Tariffs are costing the U.S. tech sector $1.3 billion a month, the Consumer Technology Association said in a statement to the United States trade representative in June. The U.S. plan for more tariffs would raise the retail price of cellphones by an average of $70, laptop computers by $120 and video game consoles by $56, the association has said. 

Apple’s AirPod, Apple Watch and HomePod, which have helped the company offset waning sales of its bestselling iPhone this year, will face a 15% levy on Sept 1. MacBooks and iPhones will face 15% tariffs on Dec. 15. 

The company said in June that the new round of U.S. tariffs would reduce its contributions to the U.S. economy and hurt its global competitiveness. 

RETAIL WOES

U.S. retailers say consumers will be hit especially hard by the tariffs due to take effect in two stages, on Sept. 1 and Dec. 15.

The American Apparel & Footwear Association estimates that 77% of U.S. imports of apparel, footwear and home textiles from China - or about $39 billion worth of goods - will be hit when the new 15% tariffs kick in on Sept. 1.

The tariffs already imposed on China are estimated to cost the average American household $600 per year, according to a report by JPMorgan Chase. That will rise to $1,000 if the tariffs on another $300 billion of U.S. imports take place, the bank added. 

VEHICLES, EQUIPMENT 

Carmakers would be risking significant sales if they abandoned China. 

General Motors Co (GM.N) last year sold more than 3.64 million vehicles in China, accounting for more than 43 percent of unit sales globally. Ford Motor Co (F.N) last year reported revenue in Asia Pacific of $12.4 billion. Ford does not break out China revenue, but the country accounted for the majority of its sales in that region. 

Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs have added billions of dollars to the cost of assembling U.S. vehicles, and tariffs on Chinese-made parts have also hiked costs.

Motorcycle manufacturer Harley-Davidson (HOG.N) was hit by retaliatory tariffs from the European Union for the metals tariffs. The company calculates spending $100 million on tariff costs in 2019. 

Motor home maker Winnebago Industries Inc (WGO.N) said it expected at least $10 million in added cost pressures in fiscal 2020 from the latest tariffs and proposed duties. 

Equipment manufacturer Deere & Co (DE.N) last week trimmed its full-year earnings forecast for the second time in three months, citing the U.S.-China trade war and bad weather, and said it will cut production at its facilities in Illinois and Iowa in the second half of 2019. 

Deere and rival Case New Holland CNHCN.UL have passed on higher costs from metals tariffs to customers, further lifting farm costs.

OTHER RISING COSTS

Steel and aluminum tariffs were among the first to be levied by the United States in early 2018 and included imports from almost the entire world. The move benefited U.S. steel producers, but not the manufacturers that process the metal.

The tariff burden on U.S. steel and aluminum buyers was almost $5 billion last year, according to the American Action Forum.

Reporting by Jonas Ekblom in Washington and Chris Prentice in New York; Additional reporting by Ben Klayman in Detroit and David Shepardson and Andrea Shalal in Washington; Editing by Leslie Adler

 
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I don't think larry and donnie have half a brain been them, XI is ten times smarter them
Everything China does is thought out unlike the knee jerk reaction from the WH,
 even if your cut a head off( no brains)  the knee will still reacts 
Trump is playing checkers ( king me) and China is playing chess
  • White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said on Sunday that he doesn’t believe China will retaliate against additional tariffs on Chinese imports that President Donald Trump announced Friday.
  • Trump said the U.S. will raise existing tariffs on $250 billion worth of Chinese goods to 30% from 25% in October. 
  • He also raised tariffs from 10% to 15% on another $300 billion of Chinese goods. Some of those tariffs will start on Sept. 1 while others have been delayed until Dec. 15. 
  • China said on Saturday that it strongly opposes Trump’s decision to levy additional tariffs on $550 billion worth of Chinese goods, and warned the U.S. of consequences if it does not end its “wrong actions.”
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11 minutes ago, garuda3 said:
I don't think larry and donnie have half a brain been them, XI is ten times smarter them
Everything China does is thought out unlike the knee jerk reaction from the WH,
 even if your cut a head off( no brains)  the knee will still reacts 
Trump is playing checkers ( king me) and China is playing chess
  • White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said on Sunday that he doesn’t believe China will retaliate against additional tariffs on Chinese imports that President Donald Trump announced Friday.
  • Trump said the U.S. will raise existing tariffs on $250 billion worth of Chinese goods to 30% from 25% in October. 
  • He also raised tariffs from 10% to 15% on another $300 billion of Chinese goods. Some of those tariffs will start on Sept. 1 while others have been delayed until Dec. 15. 
  • China said on Saturday that it strongly opposes Trump’s decision to levy additional tariffs on $550 billion worth of Chinese goods, and warned the U.S. of consequences if it does not end its “wrong actions.”

China and the US are both behaving very stupidly.  Xi wants world domination.  His best path would be to shut the fuck up, eliminate tariffs, stop fucking around in the South China sea and let his country continue to become a world powerhouse.  Instead, he is all about "face" and can't make a good decision.

And who knows what is up with Trump.  He is pandering to a crowd that thinks he is protecting their jobs.  But at the same time causing huge economic pain to the US.  Stupid.

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31 minutes ago, jzk said:

China and the US are both behaving very stupidly.  Xi wants world domination.  His best path would be to shut the fuck up, eliminate tariffs, stop fucking around in the South China sea and let his country continue to become a world powerhouse.  Instead, he is all about "face" and can't make a good decision.

And who knows what is up with Trump.  He is pandering to a crowd that thinks he is protecting their jobs.  But at the same time causing huge economic pain to the US.  Stupid.

China is a pollution spoiled place with an autocratic government.  They also enjoy a very low standard of living.

Why don't you just scream the sky is falling?

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13 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Am I detecting a right to left shift in your rhetoric jzk?

Has the fact that Donnie’s gonna cost you a lot of money all of a sudden have any bearing on the matter?

 

When did free trade become "left?" 

You gotta hand it to Trump for converting all the lefties into free traders.  

It isn't costing me any money.  It is costing you money.

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5 minutes ago, jzk said:

When did free trade become "left?" 

You gotta hand it to Trump for converting all the lefties into free traders.  

It isn't costing me any money.  It is costing you money.

Actually, thinkers on the left have promoted fair wages and environmental policies as very important parts of trade.

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

If Donnie’s tariff war leads to a recession it’s gonna cost us all some money.

Its already costing us money.  There is no case to be made for these tariffs.  

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Just now, hasher said:

Actually, thinkers on the left have promoted fair wages and environmental policies as very important parts of trade.

"Fair wages" is what is driving this tariff bullshit.  As I said before, amazing how Trump has turned the lefties into free traders.

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Just now, jzk said:

"Fair wages" is what is driving this tariff bullshit.  As I said before, amazing how Trump has turned the lefties into free traders.

People who work should be paid a living wage.  Should we legalize child labor?

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9 minutes ago, hasher said:

People who work should be paid a living wage.  Should we legalize child labor?

People who work should be paid whatever their skills can command.  Children worked for all of history until capitalism made us rich enough that they no longer need to work.  Why do you want to destroy our civilization such that children will once again be forced to work?

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Just now, jzk said:

People who work should be paid whatever their skills can command.  Children worked for all of history until capitalism made us rich enough that they no longer need to work.  Why do you want to destroy our civilization such that children will once again be forced to work?

I have worked since I was 10, over 50 years.  My father provided the bed I slept in and the food on the table.  I bought my own boats and such.

I don't care to enslave other people to make my shoes.

I don't want their air to be less clean.  In Atlanta, I'd like our air to lose the ground level ozone.

Do you find that to be liberal?  I consider my views to be mainstream human. 

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1 minute ago, hasher said:

I have worked since I was 10, over 50 years.  My father provided the bed I slept in and the food on the table.  I bought my own boats and such.

I don't care to enslave other people to make my shoes.

I don't want their air to be less clean.  In Atlanta, I'd like our air to lose the ground level ozone.

Do you find that to be liberal?  I consider my views to be mainstream human. 

You were the victim of child labor?  Who were these criminals that committed such an atrocity?

I only want to buy shoes from people that voluntarily made them for me.  

I enjoy the US's clean air on a daily basis.  It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

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Just now, jzk said:

You were the victim of child labor?  Who were these criminals that committed such an atrocity?

I only want to buy shoes from people that voluntarily made them for me.  

I enjoy the US's clean air on a daily basis.  It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

I enjoyed my little paper route.  I enjoyed it when the grocery store hired me.  There is a reason for unions.  You are exhibit "A".

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10 minutes ago, jzk said:

You were the victim of child labor?  Who were these criminals that committed such an atrocity?

I only want to buy shoes from people that voluntarily made them for me.  

I enjoy the US's clean air on a daily basis.  It seems that the more capitalism we have, the cleaner the air is.

Right, because industry loves to clean the air and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

Honesty, you're secretly a Trotskyite intent on holding up the follies of Western Civilization to ridicule, aincha?

- DSK

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12 minutes ago, hasher said:

I enjoyed my little paper route.  I enjoyed it when the grocery store hired me.  There is a reason for unions.  You are exhibit "A".

You mean the evil grocery store is "exhibit A."  You probably even learned the value of work.  We must stop such atrocities.  

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Right, because industry loves to clean the air and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

Honesty, you're secretly a Trotskyite intent on holding up the follies of Western Civilization to ridicule, aincha?

- DSK

Sorry, dumbass, but when a society becomes wealthy enough, its citizens demand clean air.  You really are stupid.

When the wall came down in East Germany, which do you suppose was the cleaner society?  West or East?

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Just now, jzk said:

You mean the evil grocery store is "exhibit A."  You probably even learned the value of work.  We must stop such atrocities.  

There were laws about child labor.  I don't think we should import one item that isn't produced with basic human rights.

I am sorry you are clueless or just choose to obfuscate. 

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3 minutes ago, jzk said:
8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Right, because industry loves to clean the air and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

Honesty, you're secretly a Trotskyite intent on holding up the follies of Western Civilization to ridicule, aincha?

 

Sorry, dumbass, but when a society becomes wealthy enough, its citizens demand clean air.  You really are stupid.

When the wall came down in East Germany, which do you suppose was the cleaner society?  West or East?

 

I'm not stupid enough to get the concept of "capitalism" confused with the concept of "democracy" as you have.

- DSK

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