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J/99 anyone have info beyond the teaser?


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It has been awesome!  Better than we hoped.  We have done something like 34 races this season and almost all of it DH.  We even do short buoy races DH without issue.  Much prefer longer races where we

Or maybe the boat really is great.  The performance of the two J99s in the SH was impressive. Your posts (here and elsewhere) are usually down on the costs of the sport but compared to most of th

No info as of yet. It comes as a surprise because the alloy rigs are keel stepped and the mast section very chunky, they boasted that the rig is as light as a carbon one… instead we can marvel at

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14 hours ago, Up_Next said:

Calypso J99 up into 3rd in IRC6 in the Middle Sea race and on a bit of a charge. Looks like Space Jockey has retired. 

Space Jockey retired with a broken rig

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12 hours ago, Up_Next said:

Ahh shit. Hope everyone ok. Any idea on where it failed?

No info as of yet. It comes as a surprise because the alloy rigs are keel stepped and the mast section very chunky, they boasted that the rig is as light as a carbon one…

instead we can marvel at the photos of Calypso who is still in the race and lying 4th in class and 13th overall 

458E68CF-8AF0-4557-8662-03035349C186.thumb.jpeg.f54d3f63cdcbb349735f203d274b03ab.jpeg

A0D8938D-7187-4704-838B-80E1BF90FA19.thumb.jpeg.3f4613edcec1f1b563cbb6488df571fd.jpeg

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4 hours ago, JL92S said:

No info as of yet. It comes as a surprise because the alloy rigs are keel stepped and the mast section very chunky, they boasted that the rig is as light as a carbon one…

instead we can marvel at the photos of Calypso who is still in the race and lying 4th in class and 13th overall 

458E68CF-8AF0-4557-8662-03035349C186.thumb.jpeg.f54d3f63cdcbb349735f203d274b03ab.jpeg

A0D8938D-7187-4704-838B-80E1BF90FA19.thumb.jpeg.3f4613edcec1f1b563cbb6488df571fd.jpeg

Surprised to see the Code 0 tacked halfway out the sprit. I thought the point of the fixed sprit was to have a bob stay so you could get enough luff tension. Given the A sail in the other photo, would this be a rigging technique for quick swaps? 

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Looking at the size of the sail it could even be a flying jib top rather than a code 0. The only reason I can think of having the sail like that is to make it easier to hoist spinnakers

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@danstanford They've modified their sprit with a bobstay supporting each tack location. It would definitely make sense that it's rigged that way for quick sail changes, probably easier than using the foil for both jib top and jib, and also frees up the end of the sprit for a quick change to code zero/spinnaker.

image.png.caa8e89ae6a39abd895b58522fd2975c.png

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1 hour ago, evandinsmore said:

@danstanford They've modified their sprit with a bobstay supporting each tack location. It would definitely make sense that it's rigged that way for quick sail changes, probably easier than using the foil for both jib top and jib, and also frees up the end of the sprit for a quick change to code zero/spinnaker.

image.png.caa8e89ae6a39abd895b58522fd2975c.png

Thanks Evan, I didn't even see the additional bob stay in the photo. Your explanation makes perfect sense. 

I guess the jib top could also have a few more square feet being tacked out there as well. 

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That shot of the 99 In front of the mountain is incredible!

That’s the first mast failure I’ve heard of on one of these AGs - very interested in the post Mortem. I switched from the 99 to a 112 but both sticks came out of AG at about the same time. Pushed both hard and all good so far. 

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1 hour ago, danstanford said:

Thanks Evan, I didn't even see the additional bob stay in the photo. Your explanation makes perfect sense. 

I guess the jib top could also have a few more square feet being tacked out there as well. 

To be legal on IRC the jib top has to be the same area as the largest upwind jib but can be optimised for reaching work. Where the sail has a hollow leech with no battens you can add a bit of extra length to the luff, you might typically make the leech shorter and lengthen the foot slightly also. You can play around with the shape as long as the sail area remains the same 

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On 10/26/2021 at 12:23 PM, GHarring19 said:

That shot of the 99 In front of the mountain is incredible!

 

That is Stromboli.  Can you imagine living there?  It appears from all of the houses on the other side, that lots of people do.  And it is an active volcano.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi All,

Shortly started racing with the J99 Bold & Gracious. (DUTCH)
Normal keel version 
Asymetric
Crew 525 kg
No official Certificate yet.
So here starts my question. :-)

I am looking for the velocity-rating up and downwind (speed-guides)
The polaire using from availble trimguides are not representive because we sail far outside these on angels and speed.

Also is there any info on stay setting ?
 

Any help is so much appraciated.
Off course I will provide feedback in return.
 

Many thanks in advance,
 

Joel Staneke


 

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4 hours ago, Joel Staneke said:


The polaire using from availble trimguides are not representive because we sail far outside these on angels and speed.


 

 

To what extend is this because your instruments  are not properly calibrated?

Once my instruments were calibrated, I found the ORC speedguide for my 111 extremely accurate.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

We should be showing some love on here for Disko Trooper and her crew for a great performance in the Sydney Hobart race. 

Of note was a comment by the crew that they were using paneled sails as if it were an advantage. Can there really be an advantage other than price? 

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I'm really close to pulling the trigger and ordering a j/99, but seeing more of them for sale used in the US than J/109s (2 vs 1 isn't a large sample, but still two boats about a year old for sale seems high) - I assume the boat was just too small and light for what the owners wanted? 

 

Is there any strong reason not to buy one?  

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No strong reason I have heard yet. I have heard allusions to them being less than fast in lighter conditions but that is about it. I know two people in my area with them and they both say nice things....though don't we all! 

 

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On 1/1/2022 at 12:23 PM, Wood said:

Is there any strong reason not to buy one?  

Where are you located and what do you want to do with the boat?  Depending on the answer it could be either the totally right or wrong boat for you.

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So, Disko Trooper did not have water ballast.  I suspect the other 99 did.  Also, I'm betting Disko has a straight IRC keel versus the J-bulb.  Anyone know for certain?

Also, Disko was using paneled sails because...  One of the crew owns Contender Sailcloth, used to make paneled sails. Bahdump...

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1 hour ago, Roleur said:

So, Disko Trooper did not have water ballast.  I suspect the other 99 did.  Also, I'm betting Disko has a straight IRC keel versus the J-bulb.  Anyone know for certain?

Both boats have J-bulbs, single rudders, and no water ballast. Any difference in configuration would be their sails.

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3 hours ago, Blur said:

Full ORCi Certificates:

Gybe angles at 174-177 TWA in 14-29 TWS ?????? Really?????? Or am I not understanding how ORC works (being an IRC man)??

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16 minutes ago, Fastrak said:

Gybe angles at 174-177 TWA in 14-29 TWS ?????? Really?????? Or am I not understanding how ORC works (being an IRC man)??

ORC does the same thing to many asym boats... unrealistic downwind angles.

ORR is pretty bad too

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19 minutes ago, Fastrak said:

Gybe angles at 174-177 TWA in 14-29 TWS ?????? Really?????? Or am I not understanding how ORC works (being an IRC man)??

Some of the models are a bit flawed, and VPP needs to be calibrated. Typically I add 4% to most speed figures and adjust VMG angles downwind. Curves are pretty "flat" downwind so basically you just dial down the angles beyond the "real" TWA. I would guess the J/99 starts at 135 in light air and ends up at TWA 160 in TWS 16-18, then planing at TWA 150 until things explode :lol:

IRC, ORC, ORR and all other rules are flawed in different ways, but ORC does a decent job when you try to compare similar boats (like the two boats above).

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31 minutes ago, us7070 said:

ORC does the same thing to many asym boats... unrealistic downwind angles.

Looks worse than it is, as the VPP undersetimates speed at real target TWA B)

ORC actually rates J/boats pretty fair. The J/112e won the last Worlds (as one of very few sprit boats), J/99 just won ORCi overall in RSYR, J/122e have been winning big races in Holland and we've posted some solid results with the J/111 both in Scaninavia and in the Med (ORC class wins in all races so far).

Our experience is that ORC can handle both our turbo config (with 155 m2 whopper, Jib 0 and a 50% code) as well as our more dialled down IRC mode. 

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3 minutes ago, Blur said:

Looks worse than it is, as the VPP undersetimates speed at real target TWA B)

ORC actually rates J/boats pretty fair.

i don't disagree - i was just commenting on the issue with the VPP and downwind angles.

i race on a boat with an asym and we do very well under ORC

if, for example, you want to use the ORC numbers as polars for routing in expedition, you should change the angles - even a guestimate is better than just using them out of the box.

mostly the issue is only with the numbers at higher wind speeds. the other numbers are more reasonable.

 

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Major Congratulations to Disko Trooper - so awesome to see a 99 with a massive win!!! It looks like there was a lot of breezy reaching involved, and the 99 for sure loves those conditions - well done Gentlemen!!!

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8 hours ago, Blur said:

Full ORCi Certificates:

So 3 main differences.  

Disko's main is 10% smaller.

Disko's jib is about 3% bigger.

Rum has a flying jib.  

 

Sounds to me the flying jib was a rather big rating hit.  Which might have been justified if they had a reachy year, but for this year, the smaller main on Disko was probably an advantage straight up, forget the rating advantage.  

Disko actually mentioned they picked the J/99 because is was a good boat (rates well?) for up/down races, but no so good reaching.  

I also heard Disko mention they carried a J4 and J5.  I've never heard of a J5 for boats this size, but I suppose when you make sailcloth and are planning for a Sydney Hobart why wouldn't you have a J5?!

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4 hours ago, us7070 said:

ORC does the same thing to many asym boats... unrealistic downwind angles.

ORR is pretty bad too

Yes, that.

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Two thoughts...

1. The ORC downwind VPP numbers are crap - it has, for example forecast optimum VMG run TWA of 180 for some poled boats. And the J would be unlikely to ever sail deeper than 155 TWA.

2. For Hobart, shorthanded, you would have a 1, small reef to #3; off at around 23 TWS, 1 reef in main, then a 4/5 and a carbon sail about 2/3 the size of a max area storm jib, set on  a stay.... and a three reef main.

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7 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

1. The ORC downwind VPP numbers are crap - it has, for example forecast optimum VMG run TWA of 180 for some poled boats. And the J would be unlikely to ever sail deeper than 155 TWA.

I guess we're doing it wrong with target TWA of 158 at 14 kts and 160 at 16?

But we only put 10 years into it.

The ORC consists of a number of THEORETICAL models that ASSUMES perfect sail shapes for EVERY ANGLE and tries to approximate performance in boats from 20 to 200'. It's hard to nail the exact sweetspot VMG downwind, and that's not what you use the polars for.

If you just look at the actual VMG number, it's pretty close to the real number (just at TWA 155 instead of TWA 175). But that doesn't really matter for rating or routing purposes.

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11 hours ago, Blur said:

I guess we're doing it wrong with target TWA of 158 at 14 kts and 160 at 16?

But we only put 10 years into it.

The ORC consists of a number of THEORETICAL models that ASSUMES perfect sail shapes for EVERY ANGLE and tries to approximate performance in boats from 20 to 200'. It's hard to nail the exact sweetspot VMG downwind, and that's not what you use the polars for.

If you just look at the actual VMG number, it's pretty close to the real number (just at TWA 155 instead of TWA 175). But that doesn't really matter for rating or routing purposes.

To be fair, Blur has a much longer sprit and higher boat speeds, so it would seem that the best TWA for the J/99 should be smaller than the J/111, no?

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5 hours ago, Varan said:

Sail-World has a write-up on J99 victory in the double-handed division of the Sydney-Hobart. 

J Boats writes an article about how their new boat is great. Sure would be nice if there was knowledgeable, independent and critical journalism in Sail-World rather than advertisers writing their own copy or paying insider social media influencers to hype what should stand on their own merit. 

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11 hours ago, Roleur said:

To be fair, Blur has a much longer sprit and higher boat speeds, so it would seem that the best TWA for the J/99 should be smaller than the J/111, no?

The "fully powered soaking angles" have been pretty similar on both J/109 and J/111, and also sailing the J/99 Calypso. Even the J/70 end up at TWA 160+. Biggest difference between designs are when wou're in stable soaking mode and when you start planing. 

Speed difference between soaking J/99 and J/111 are just 10%, and as you're 20-25 degrees off dead downwind, sprit lenght makes little difference. A few degrees difference in TWA maybe?

Looking at this sequence from SH it behaves very similar to the J/111 (but needs a few more knots of wind to plane). We see "full-on plane" at TWA 150, and the "soaking mode in the lulls" at TWA 155-160. 

 

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11 hours ago, Black Jack said:

J Boats writes an article about how their new boat is great. Sure would be nice if there was knowledgeable, independent and critical journalism in Sail-World rather than advertisers writing their own copy or paying insider social media influencers to hype what should stand on their own merit. 

Or maybe the boat really is great.  The performance of the two J99s in the SH was impressive.

Your posts (here and elsewhere) are usually down on the costs of the sport but compared to most of the SH programs, the J99 guys did it pretty affordably.  Stock boats, paneled sails in Disko's case, etc.

As an aside, I sold my J Boat for 88% of what I paid for it 16 years previously*. You know how much I raced it, and where.  I think that's a great value compared to what I would have spent on other equipment-heavy pastimes.

* I sold it in 2018 (pre-Covid boat market).  I probably could have gotten 100% or more today.

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12 hours ago, Black Jack said:

J Boats writes an article about how their new boat is great. Sure would be nice if there was knowledgeable, independent and critical journalism in Sail-World rather than advertisers writing their own copy or paying insider social media influencers to hype what should stand on their own merit. 

To be fair, the article is attributed to J-Boats in the by-line, so no attempt to pretend…

and let’s be honest, and I say this as a “J boat” fan, one of the reasons for their success is they do a great job of “advertising” the success and performance of their boats…

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1 hour ago, BobJ said:

Or maybe the boat really is great.  The performance of the two J99s in the SH was impressive.

Your posts (here and elsewhere) are usually down on the costs of the sport but compared to most of the SH programs, the J99 guys did it pretty affordably.  Stock boats, paneled sails in Disko's case, etc.

As an aside, I sold my J Boat for 88% of what I paid for it 16 years previously*. You know how much I raced it, and where.  I think that's a great value compared to what I would have spent on other equipment-heavy pastimes.

* I sold it in 2018 (pre-Covid boat market).  I probably could have gotten 100% or more today.

No doubt great boats that really make sense. The J99 that sail near me in Alameda is very cool and is a witch on points of sail.  Would love to catch a ride on one soon. It is my hope to charter one in France this summer for a weekend or more.

Your old J boat was pretty sweet too. I am sure the new owners are thrilled to have her. Covid has made things interesting through out the entire boat market as those who can afford a new or good boat have done well throughout it - I am quite certain that the boat I bought in early 2019 I could sell now for twice what I paid. 

My point is that press releases are often seen as informative news. I like my news to come from more independent sources. That is why I like this forum because much of what we read here comes from differing view points. 

 

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2 hours ago, Black Jack said:

No doubt great boats that really make sense. The J99 that sail near me in Alameda is very cool and is a witch on points of sail.  Would love to catch a ride on one soon. It is my hope to charter one in France this summer for a weekend or more.

Your old J boat was pretty sweet too. I am sure the new owners are thrilled to have her. Covid has made things interesting through out the entire boat market as those who can afford a new or good boat have done well throughout it - I am quite certain that the boat I bought in early 2019 I could sell now for twice what I paid. 

My point is that press releases are often seen as informative news. I like my news to come from more independent sources. That is why I like this forum because much of what we read here comes from differing view points. 

 

Too true!  Ironically it’s these very same forums that is killing off sailing journals, and hence real journalists, as news and information travels faster via the forum than waiting for the magazine to be published…:(

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Blur,

The point I was making in part was that in passage and ocean racing, you are mainly sailing VMC, not much VMG.

And as I am sure you are aware, the downwind VMG curves are generally flattish around the optimum, whereas in plenty of conditions, 3 - 5 degrees hotter gives substantially better VMC.

If you have well developed numbers for say 8, 12, 16 and 20 TWS, it would be great if you could post something!

Cheers

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17 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

Blur,

The point I was making in part was that in passage and ocean racing, you are mainly sailing VMC, not much VMG.

And as I am sure you are aware, the downwind VMG curves are generally flattish around the optimum, whereas in plenty of conditions, 3 - 5 degrees hotter gives substantially better VMC.

If you have well developed numbers for say 8, 12, 16 and 20 TWS, it would be great if you could post something!

Cheers

Agree. But there's also many situations where it can be advantageous to stay low with max VMG, either to control the fleet or avoid lighter air on the long gybe. At least in the Med we find that there's often a leg where we get to use it.

Attached are our targets.

Targets.jpg

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Excellent! Two more questions

1. These using STL and spin area of .... ? (Disko Trooper 5.1 and 101 m2)

2. Do you have the VMG curves as well? Be particularly interested in that for 18 knots TWS - i.e. VMG and speed at 145, 150, 155, 160 and 165 TWA.

If it is a running Hobart, the TWA in the NE flow can be 140 to 155 for long periods. Conversely, the 180 mile qualifier earlier each year often ends up almost a true windward/leeward!

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6 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

Excellent! Two more questions

1. These using STL and spin area of .... ? (Disko Trooper 5.1 and 101 m2)

2. Do you have the VMG curves as well? Be particularly interested in that for 18 knots TWS - i.e. VMG and speed at 145, 150, 155, 160 and 165 TWA.

If it is a running Hobart, the TWA in the NE flow can be 140 to 155 for long periods. Conversely, the 180 mile qualifier earlier each year often ends up almost a true windward/leeward!

That table is for a J/111, I believe.

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You can log into ORC.org and download several certs and some speed guides for the various boats. Blur’s info is highly specialized for his boat and config.  He has spent time optimizing his sail plan for the particular races and rule he is sailing under.  His info is good, but you can learn more about how to come up with good data for your setup by studying the other info that is available on other certs.  

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8 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

If it is a running Hobart, the TWA in the NE flow can be 140 to 155 for long periods. Conversely, the 180 mile qualifier earlier each year often ends up almost a true windward/leeward!

Not in the last edition! 140 - 155 for long periods would have been a dream. 

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1 hour ago, T sailor said:

You can log into ORC.org and download several certs and some speed guides for the various boats.

There's also this awesome orc-data Github project which imports data from ORC.org and allows you to visualize the polars / compare to other boats.

It hasn't been updated to pull in Disko Trooper's ORC data, but I was able to run the project on my own machine and took a screenshot. I also did a quick comparison to a J/111, just for curiosity's sake.

Screen Shot 2022-01-11 at 4.38.03 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-01-11 at 4.45.05 PM.png

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T sailor

You missed the point...

The ORC downwind polars are so crap as to be useless.

Hence, Blurs' actuals are very useful, particularly at the planing crossover - say ~18 TWS.

And plenty can be inferred from some accurate real data, as the sail force and hydro drag behaviour for a reasonably wide  DLR range (say 125 - 160) is similar.

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  • 5 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Blur said:

Delivery of #100. Apparently >20 more on order. Not too bad?

273486161_5136699119722823_8198730716822

How is that boat being hung in the air? I don't see any straps and I have not read about single point lifting...

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