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Farrier bought by Daedalus


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You know...it's easy to pick on the Chinese built GB's, but they were dealt a tough hand. The build was tough for anyone, let alone a yard that had never done anything similar before. All carbon, with

So once we agree that even a performance, ocean voyaging catamaran without a super attentive sheet tending crew will essentially run with both hulls firmly planted in the water we can turn our attenti

Westerly did a great job with Extreme. Holland Composites did a great job with the G4. VaiVai was very well built in NC by 3rd parties. So yeah, it's not just SA that built good GBs. 

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17 hours ago, Dense505crew said:

From the Farrier latest news page!!

http://www.f-boat.com/PRAugust2018.pdfPRAugust2018.pdf

Good or bad??

Looks good to me.

It's not good or bad.

Or it's both.

The bad is that we lost the best boat producer, probably ever. I highly doubt he will ever be matched/bested.

It's good in that it's an opportunity for good, 10 years time will tell.

Any long term Daedalus Owners out there?

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8 hours ago, soma said:

LOL. That's a good one. 

To be clear, i'm not disparaging Daedalus. It's just that they are a new company with one boat under build and no boats launched. Hopefully that changes and they launch lots of Farriers. 

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Soma, would that one boat under build at Daedalus be a leftover from Gunboat in Carolina? Looks like they are using the hull form of the G4 as the basis of their rendered concept boats. Didn't the G4 that flipped in Antigua get delivered back to Gunboat just before things fell apart. I heard Shannon got stiffed for that delivery?

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3 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Soma, would that one boat under build at Daedalus be a leftover from Gunboat in Carolina? Looks like they are using the hull form of the G4 as the basis of their rendered concept boats. Didn't the G4 that flipped in Antigua get delivered back to Gunboat just before things fell apart. I heard Shannon got stiffed for that delivery?

The left over Gunboat from NC is my project in Newport.

 

Daedalus is building a 80' prepreg, hydrogen powered, hull wing door performance cruising cat in NC. It's well-funded, but imho it seems like a moon shot. Mike Reardon has lots of experience, but this project is at the edge of what's theoretically possible anywhere by anyone. Stylistically the Daedalus 80 certainly picked up where Gunboat left off. The buyers of the Daedalus 80 were the last buyers at old GB, pre-bankruptcy. They bought a G7 or something. Basically, PJ took a $2m deposit hours before he would've gone bankrupt. That kept him solvent for another month or two, but $2m was a drop in the bucket when you're $20m+ in debt. I think of that as just straight theft. Everyone in the industry was waiting for the bankruptcy filing, then word went round that PJ landed a Hail Mary, 4th quarter big fish. 

 

G4 #1 that flipped was sailed to NC, then shipped back to Holland to be refit by the factory. It just arrived back in the US last weekend and is for sale via Daedalus/Mike. G4#2 I hear is US bound for a high profile buyer. The F4 is in Antigua AFAIK. Shannon "owns" the F4, and he was stiffed for his time on the G4 #1

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On 8/8/2018 at 6:16 AM, soma said:

 The F4 is in Antigua AFAIK. Shannon "owns" the F4, and he was stiffed for his time on the G4 #1

How did he end up with that? His debt was far less than the boat. Chipped in a few extra dollars to the creditors?

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The F4 wasn't related to his owed wages or Gunboat. He developed the F4  separately as an evolution of the G4 with an eye towards creating a class, I guess. I don't know anything about the economics of ownership...whether he owns it outright or had investors and/or sponsorship, but it's "his" in the sense he seeks to decide what it does and when. 

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Soma,

 

What is 'hull wing door performance'? 

I see that they plan to use a Proton Exchange Membrane electrolyzer to produce hydrogen onboard. Typical efficiencies are around 50% and you'd need to have a separate compressor to make the H2 volume practical. 

FWIW, am now building high pressure H2 PEMs for a living. Glad to see them on a boat but would love to know more about the engineering and design.

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3 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

Soma,

 

What is 'hull wing door performance'? 

 

 

That was meant to say "gull-wing door, performance catamaran". The owner's cabin has a big gull-wing door that opens up, like the Lagoon 77.

 

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On 8/7/2018 at 9:39 AM, soma said:

To be clear, i'm not disparaging Daedalus. It's just that they are a new company with one boat under build and no boats launched. Hopefully that changes and they launch lots of Farriers. 

Lots of F22s built in the US of A would indeed be a nice thing!!!!!

Cheers,

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15 hours ago, vaplaya said:

Lots of F22s built in the US of A would indeed be a nice thing!!!!!

Cheers,

I agree 100%.  The cost has got to come down though.  I just priced one out and it came to $115-130k.  That's a lot of dough for a 22' trailer sailor, as awesome as it looks.  As I recall the original goal of the F22 was to have an affordable fast tri, somewhere around half of that price.  If you could get it down to that level or close you might have a shot at a good sized fleet.  

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On 8/7/2018 at 12:22 AM, darth reapius said:

Any long term Daedalus Owners out there?

 

On 8/7/2018 at 12:38 AM, soma said:

LOL. That's a good one. 

 

Man, I do wonder about this.  Far too many people I know have been burned by boat companies going belly up and all I see here is a website that strikes me as vaporware or an impossible dream and a dude I think was part of both Gunboat and Stiletto (both of which went belly up and left depositors screwed).  So its clear can think of people who are salt of the earth and I would trust completely with a similar company history but I just don't know about this development.  Love or hate Ian's on-line persona, the dude had a long standing reputation of designing and building great boats and doing what he though was right by his customers.  If I wanted an F22 (and I don't... wayyyyy too pricey for me for a 22 foot day sailor) I would have zero concern putting a deposit down on a new boat if it was Ian.  This company?  Uh....   But then again I can't think of too many boat companies I would want to leave a deposit with absent engaging a lawyer and having an iron clad contract (not the builders boilerplate) that left me whole if they failed. 

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26 minutes ago, Wess said:

...But then again I can't think of too many boat companies I would want to leave a deposit with absent engaging a lawyer and having an iron clad contract (not the builders boilerplate) that left me whole if they failed. 

Even WITH a lawyer and an ironclad contract you won't be left whole if they fail...the low risk play is to go with a known builder of similar boats, who's done it many times, successfully and profitably. Or take your chances  At the size and style of Daedalus or the Gunboat 68 there's no one with a successful track record.

Dollars to donuts, GLY gives up on Gunboat as an expensive mistake. Being smart businessmen, my guess is they strategically give up instead of going into full Fukushima nuclear meltdown/bankruptcy mode like PJ. They don't have the pockets to lose $2m/boat for long. 

Daedalus, on the other hand, isn't really a "business" per se, it's a wealthy buyer bankrolling the build of his boat. There's no need for profitability. HH is in a similar boat, a super wealthy businessman who's willing to lose $5m/year, indefinitely, because it's fun. That's tough to compete with. GLY doesn't have that luxury  

As long as Deadelus' benefactors are willing to keep writing checks then it's all good. 

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9 hours ago, socalrider said:

I agree 100%.  The cost has got to come down though.  I just priced one out and it came to $115-130k.  That's a lot of dough for a 22' trailer sailor, as awesome as it looks.  As I recall the original goal of the F22 was to have an affordable fast tri, somewhere around half of that price.  If you could get it down to that level or close you might have a shot at a good sized fleet.  

 

I agree. I did price it sometime ago and I thought I had calculated for 2 boats. Half price would do it for me, unfortunately I do not see that happening.  

Cheers, 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

 

 

Man, I do wonder about this.  Far too many people I know have been burned by boat companies going belly up and all I see here is a website that strikes me as vaporware or an impossible dream and a dude I think was part of both Gunboat and Stiletto (both of which went belly up and left depositors screwed).  So its clear can think of people who are salt of the earth and I would trust completely with a similar company history but I just don't know about this development.  Love or hate Ian's on-line persona, the dude had a long standing reputation of designing and building great boats and doing what he though was right by his customers.  If I wanted an F22 (and I don't... wayyyyy too pricey for me for a 22 foot day sailor) I would have zero concern putting a deposit down on a new boat if it was Ian.  This company?  Uh....   But then again I can't think of too many boat companies I would want to leave a deposit with absent engaging a lawyer and having an iron clad contract (not the builders boilerplate) that left me whole if they failed. 

At least in this case, there is only currently one boat in full swing production, and it's already in full swing, where-as Stiletto lost all it's money in the building of a production line for an un-proven cat which had no real buyers lined up. Gunboat sadly had a few things happen whilst gambling too much money on concepts, if PJ had of taken his time he'd still be running gunboat like nothing happened, but instead had what like 3 major failures in a couple of months?

I certainly won't be ordering one till a few dozen come out since the hand over, and I have seen at least one of them. Though I still might stick to smaller boats while the body still can.

9 hours ago, socalrider said:

I agree 100%.  The cost has got to come down though.  I just priced one out and it came to $115-130k.  That's a lot of dough for a 22' trailer sailor, as awesome as it looks.  As I recall the original goal of the F22 was to have an affordable fast tri, somewhere around half of that price.  If you could get it down to that level or close you might have a shot at a good sized fleet.  

I wonder what you put in it... I priced up what I would buy and it was sub $80k, of course it may be a little more, and I like a very bare-bones boat, and don't need that R height carbon rig here in Perth.

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3 hours ago, darth reapius said:

I wonder what you put in it... I priced up what I would buy and it was sub $80k, of course it may be a little more, and I like a very bare-bones boat, and don't need that R height carbon rig here in Perth.

When did you do this?  The base boat is $77,980 without sails, trailer, or interior. 

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11 hours ago, soma said:

Even WITH a lawyer and an ironclad contract you won't be left whole if they fail...the low risk play is to go with a known builder of similar boats, who's done it many times, successfully and profitably. Or take your chances  At the size and style of Daedalus or the Gunboat 68 there's no one with a successful track record.

Dollars to donuts, GLY gives up on Gunboat as an expensive mistake. Being smart businessmen, my guess is they strategically give up instead of going into full Fukushima nuclear meltdown/bankruptcy mode like PJ. They don't have the pockets to lose $2m/boat for long. 

Daedalus, on the other hand, isn't really a "business" per se, it's a wealthy buyer bankrolling the build of his boat. There's no need for profitability. HH is in a similar boat, a super wealthy businessman who's willing to lose $5m/year, indefinitely, because it's fun. That's tough to compete with. GLY doesn't have that luxury  

As long as Deadelus' benefactors are willing to keep writing checks then it's all good. 

Geeze, does not give me the warm and fuzzies for the future of GB, HH, or Farrier.  But then again its pretty much what I thought.  If and when we ever get our life back I suspect we are looking for a pre-owned boat or hull and reworking to make it our own.  In other words, start with having a title, LOL.

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All,

F22s are being churned out of the NZ factory at pace as we speak.  Ian had basically just wrapped up a production contract for Daedalus to begins US production in NC, which would greatly scale the production capacity.   HE picked them because of the quality of the builds that were coming out of their production.  Unfortunately, he passed on the way back home to NZ.   

That production agreement has now turned into an ownership agreement.   The engineering etc is still led by the team in NZ, and if you are worrying about The design and engineering taking a dive under new management, you need not concern yourself for quite a while, as the F22, F32/F33, are fully defined, down to the level of Ian’s magnificent build schedule books.

so until we run out of interest in those, and I don’t expect that for a while, the boats will be as solid as the plans.   There is oversight to ensure that manufacture at all locations subscribes to that.

And the more the production ramps, the cheaper the individual unit cost.   So with luck and hard work we will see F22s in the range that poor dreamers like me can attain.

 

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5 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

And the more the production ramps, the cheaper the individual unit cost.   So with luck and hard work we will see F22s in the range that poor dreamers like me can attain.

 

Well, the original dream was a boat in a box...didn't happen.  Supposed to be 20K or so American, back in the concept days.  Hope Daedalus can do something, but if I were reading this and wanted to sail a trimaran...I wouldn't wait.  There are other quality products in the marketplace in that niche. Astus, Corsair, SeaRail to name three...all with products substantially less expensive than current prices for the F22.  Don't get me wrong, I loved my F242; but my SeaRail is built every bit as well and I'm sure a Pulse is just as well made and Astus looks to be a good choice as well. 

 

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8 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

All,

F22s are being churned out of the NZ factory at pace as we speak.  Ian had basically just wrapped up a production contract for Daedalus to begins US production in NC, which would greatly scale the production capacity.   HE picked them because of the quality of the builds that were coming out of their production.  Unfortunately, he passed on the way back home to NZ.   

That production agreement has now turned into an ownership agreement.   The engineering etc is still led by the team in NZ, and if you are worrying about The design and engineering taking a dive under new management, you need not concern yourself for quite a while, as the F22, F32/F33, are fully defined, down to the level of Ian’s magnificent build schedule books.

so until we run out of interest in those, and I don’t expect that for a while, the boats will be as solid as the plans.   There is oversight to ensure that manufacture at all locations subscribes to that.

And the more the production ramps, the cheaper the individual unit cost.   So with luck and hard work we will see F22s in the range that poor dreamers like me can attain.

 

There are definitely more issues than meet the eye here.

I am at the stage of pushing the buy button on the F-22 however the gut feeling is that all still isn't as the blurb I was receiving from Ian pre his passing and at a factory visit in the early stage of developement in 2012 and then correspondence with Rob post Ian passing and public posts in Farrier marine news has one believe. On my recent trip back home to NZ I decided to go to Christchurch and ask around. I visited a local composites company "Composites Group" who had again just started building hulls decks and liners plus trailer bed and winch post for the F-22 for Farrier Marine. I say again as they informed me they had built trailer parts for Farrier Marine when Ian was alive but agreement could not be met on price etc so they discontinued. Under new management post Ian's passing but prior to buy out they resumed a build agreement but again discord was the result. The man in charge I spoke with seemed genuine and had no axe to grind so I had no reason to dis believe his version of events as there were the parts and moulds there when I visited to back him up couple photo's attached.

I want to believe the positive news of the Farrier buy out and production inprovement as with 20 boats built maybe 22 by now (as I'm back in Sweden so out of touch) then a new order wouldn't be unrealistic to expect delivery next NZ sumner 2019/2020 given the order book is a bit lower than that quoted presently.

JFWIW from my personal questioning.

F-22 Enquiry
 
RD
Robin Densem <rob.d@f-boat.com>
Fri 16/03/2018 7:50 a.m.
Inbox
 
To:
Tony Ellen (tony.ellen@hotmail.com);
 
Hi Tony,
 
Firstly my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.
 
I need to point out the F-22R carbon option has been withdrawn from the market. 
It was a concept sailboat the late ian Farrier was working on just before he died. Our resources are such that we need to focus totally on the production of the F-22S and F-22R base boats, for which we have a large order book.
 
In recent months we have made huge strides towards increasing our production levels in the New Zealand factory.
We will be making an announcement soon regarding a US-based factory, which will greatly enhance the availability of the F-22.
I’m not in a position to provide a timeline, suggest you keep an eye on our website www.f-boat.com.
 
regards
 
 
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This was my first contact with Rob instead of Ian that gave hope that delivery could be prompt.

RD
Robin Densem <rob.d@f-boat.com>
Fri 23/02/2018 3:33 p.m.
Inbox
 
To:
tony.ellen@hotmail.com;
 
 
Evernote
 
 
Hi Tony,
 
We received a Trial Order for an F-22R last week.
 
I was just wondering if there is anything else we can help you with at this point.
 
Farrier Marine is going through a transition period at present, with the sad and sudden death of genius creator of the F-Boat, Ian Farrier passing away last December.
 
The plans we had formulated with Ian prior to his death to ramp up production have continued at pace, and we expect to be able to announce major advancements in production soon.
This will mean the considerable backlog of F-22 orders will be fulfilled quickly and allow new orders to be taken with delivery times slashed to 18 months or better.
 
If you would like to place a non refundable deposit of USD500, now is a good time to do so.
 
regards
 
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As it would be as I drove around the corner to find the boat building yard of Davie Norris to thank him for directing me to the Composites Group for some insight a boat in parts was being resecured to trailer in transit back to Farrier Marine from Composites Group.

That's as much as I know until I push buy. My only advice is do your own research as all isn't as it seems for whatever reason, there were many more comments passed on around Christchurch but it would be a book.

Why didn't I go to Farriers workshop this trip, because I keep getting the same story I've been getting since the F-22 was announced without the results to back the story and wanted independent industry review as to what is going on.

I sail a DF 25 in Sweden I purchased for my Northern home ground. Nice boat but I believe it to have slightly less room internal which is where the F-22 should excel for my Auckland home waters with grand children aboard.

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13 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

HE picked them because of the quality of the builds that were coming out of their production.  Unfortunately, he passed on the way back home to NZ. 

 

What builds had come out of the Daedalus yard prior to Ian's passing?

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I don't think that is the same team and certainly not a routine production model.  AFAIK they have no experience with that.  Or with successfully running any "brand."  Perhaps quite the contrary.  So its clear I am not throwing stones here.  Just seen too many people screwed by boat companies going belly up and nothing here gives me warm and fuzzy feelings.  Hope to be wrong and would love to be proven wrong with time.  Ian's legacy deserves that.  Are you affiliated with the company?

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1 hour ago, soma said:

The NC built Gunboats were wildly overweight and even more overbudget. I wouldn't point to that as proof of anything. 

Would you consider any of the GBs other than the ones built in South Africa to be succesfull builds?

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

Would you consider any of the GBs other than the ones built in South Africa to be succesfull builds?

Westerly did a great job with Extreme. Holland Composites did a great job with the G4. VaiVai was very well built in NC by 3rd parties. So yeah, it's not just SA that built good GBs. 

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Westerly did a great job with Extreme. Holland Composites did a great job with the G4. VaiVai was very well built in NC by 3rd parties. So yeah, it's not just SA that built good GBs. 

Soma, you know a lot on this topic. I don’t. So I ask with due humility.

I confess I think of the G4 as almost another category (awesome boat but not really a performance cruiser you can take your family along for any extended period, but I’d be willing to try).

I certainly would not want to imply disrespect to Holland Composites, Westerly, or Croswait, but it seems that your answer would suggest the only successful “series” gunboat product was from South Africa. Extreme at least began it construction in South Africa before moving on to Westerly for a one off completion.

Looks like Vai Vai may not be as unique as Extreme as it sounds like Croswait has done a second and has access to more hulls. Are those left over from GB in NC or are they new use of the GB 55 molds?  From Croswait site “Made from the Gunboat 55 molds, this series has been completed by Croswait Custom Composites. With two builds under our belts and the third launching by August, there are still a couple hulls out there awaiting ownership.”

In any case it seems like the closest to series built success would be the 48s and 66s.

The message I take away is that in the high performance cruising (and probably yacht market as a whole) a purchaser needs to be very careful with whom they do business and then put a lot of care into purchase contract, stage payments and ownership, and have their own representative highly involved during the build. (or maybe look for a previously loved boat ...)

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On 8/19/2018 at 4:46 PM, Rasputin22 said:

John Lombardini now at Croswait has been building fine multihulls for a long time. Good to see him on the team there.

John's great, and the guys at Croswait have done a great job of executing what their buyers have asked of them. 

 

 

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Soma,

     Do you know if the Gunboat 66 will be on display at the Newport Boat Show next month? Will you be at the show, I'd love to hoist a brew with you at the show. I got word from Rope Eye that Harken will have his 'production' clutch/constrictor at their booth. I'm spec'ing those on a CF wingspar I'm having built up in Boston.

    I'm hoping to get a peek at Tommy's secret project too but I'm afraid that they will have to kill me if they show me...

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Soma,

     Do you know if the Gunboat 66 will be on display at the Newport Boat Show next month? Will you be at the show, I'd love to hoist a brew with you at the show. I got word from Rope Eye that Harken will have his 'production' clutch/constrictor at their booth. I'm spec'ing those on a CF wingspar I'm having built up in Boston.

    I'm hoping to get a peek at Tommy's secret project too but I'm afraid that they will have to kill me if they show me...

 

 

The Gunboat 68 is several months away from launching, in France, so no US boat shows for the new boat. GB will have a booth but no boat. I quit GB though. 

 

You have to stop by the Shipyard to check out my latest project, though. Pretty exciting stuff that I'm happy to show...and we have beer! We are in the big white tent. 

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On 8/20/2018 at 12:07 AM, soma said:

Westerly did a great job with Extreme. Holland Composites did a great job with the G4. VaiVai was very well built in NC by 3rd parties. So yeah, it's not just SA that built good GBs. 

no mention of HH Gunboats?

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3 hours ago, Sailabout said:

no mention of HH Gunboats?

You know...it's easy to pick on the Chinese built GB's, but they were dealt a tough hand. The build was tough for anyone, let alone a yard that had never done anything similar before. All carbon, with hybrid systems, the retractable drives, and a very "designed" boat (interior design, exterior styling, etc). They did a remarkably good job considering. Add to that the fact that the Nigel designed boats are fundamentally a lot slower than the MM boats, and you have a set up for disappointment. If the Chinese yard had been given an "easy" GB66-style boat then PJ would still be in business, there'd be no HH line, NC never would've happened, and life would be glorious. 

 

I've long said that you could take over the world with the HH yard. You just need a management team with the authority and the willpower to do a good job. 

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8 hours ago, soma said:

I've long said that you could take over the world with the HH yard. You just need a management team with the authority and the willpower to do a good job. 

That describes pretty much every Asian yard I've dealt with over the last 15 years.

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On 8/27/2018 at 9:40 PM, soma said:

You know...it's easy to pick on the Chinese built GB's, but they were dealt a tough hand. The build was tough for anyone, let alone a yard that had never done anything similar before. All carbon, with hybrid systems, the retractable drives, and a very "designed" boat (interior design, exterior styling, etc). They did a remarkably good job considering. Add to that the fact that the Nigel designed boats are fundamentally a lot slower than the MM boats, and you have a set up for disappointment. If the Chinese yard had been given an "easy" GB66-style boat then PJ would still be in business, there'd be no HH line, NC never would've happened, and life would be glorious. 

 

I've long said that you could take over the world with the HH yard. You just need a management team with the authority and the willpower to do a good job. 

the world of boat building.....

 

Hudson learnt quick, added Hakes then seems they had the design, willpower, money and skills when they created the HH cats all in one factory, not something Gunboat ever had in one place IMHO?

Whats the gossip on the Hearst Court case?

Nice post on the front page.

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On 8/27/2018 at 6:40 AM, soma said:

I've long said that you could take over the world ...(boatbuilding). You just need a management team with the authority and the willpower to do a good job. 

That's one of the things that Farrier did right even though production types (Corsair or eager customers) hated it.  He wouldn't be rushed.  The Viet factory that made my boat caused me some grunt work fixing their "bash to fit" methods.  Two parts that don't mate right ... what to do?  Farrier--"Lets hold off and have a plan, to hell with the production schedule"... Factory folks with insufficient supervision..."Lets saw off that piece that is sticking out and glom it together later...can't leak too much and we're 8000 miles away."

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7 hours ago, MultiThom said:

That's one of the things that Farrier did right even though production types (Corsair or eager customers) hated it.  He wouldn't be rushed.  The Viet factory that made my boat caused me some grunt work fixing their "bash to fit" methods.  Two parts that don't mate right ... what to do?  Farrier--"Lets hold off and have a plan, to hell with the production schedule"... Factory folks with insufficient supervision..."Lets saw off that piece that is sticking out and glom it together later...can't leak too much and we're 8000 miles away."

you have touched on the issue, Farrier should have just designed the lines ( he was great at that) then let a boat builder build it. There is lots of poor construction design detail in Corsairs and I assume Farriers.

That made them slow to build and heavier than they should be but Farrier wouldnt be told....
 

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2 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

you have touched on the issue, Farrier should have just designed the lines ( he was great at that) then let a boat builder build it. There is lots of poor construction design detail in Corsairs and I assume Farriers.

That made them slow to build and heavier than they should be but Farrier wouldnt be told....
 

You would need to elaborate on that pile of accusation carefully, the "I assume" phrase is just a silly way to go public.

IMHO The genius of IF is undeniable and his output could be summarized by

1. An enormous number of plan built boats from plans that were always more detailed than anything else out there. Period. Until he died, the support he gave to plan builders was unequalled.

2. An enormous number of boats produced from partnership with the various "versions" of Corsair around the world. Would 453 F27's still regarded as the very best of any sailboat help you understand this? When issues related to control of production and development were not resolved amicably, IF moved on to 3.

3. A growing number of F-22 boats coming out of the NZ factory and soon the US factory that are light years ahead of any swing wing/ water stayed/  teak lined heavyweight boats out there. Production still only one boat per month, but after 20 boats things are going well. I invite you to come and have a sail on my old boat "Boom!" #1 off the production line, if you can illuminate me on any "poor production design detail" I will give  you my 20 year old F28R (Boat #14) and you can look just as hard.

Peter H

 

St H Cup 2015.jpg

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1, 2, and 3 just says he engineered them well enough for his engineering, not as well as they could be, ( but thats my opinion) thats the old make it thicker and it wont crack?

for the Corsair 24...

Do your bulkheads line up with the ama beams?

Does the traveler run between the aft beams?

Beam hold down bolts sitting on multipiece stainless brackets in shear ( they are vertical) so close to the  deck hull join you have a fight between lamination and backing plate and screw size?

The ama molding doesnt hold the bushes in to the top strut outside pin so when they get pushed out the ama can and does go up and down the movement creates a huge force in shear on those 2 screws and the deck ( mainly the front) with the 1/2" bolt in it. If you dont catch it early it either shears the screws or tears the deck or both. Most catch to due to the leak it creates inside.

Deck cracks under traveler where it turns down 90 degree in the cockpit as its taking the sheet load with zero extra reinforcement on the corner as bulkhead is forward at the aft beam.

More laminate covers all of the above, better detailed design would also cure it.

Ask a boat builder that fixes them, every time they look and say how was that ever going to work?

Maybe Corsairs various owners changed everything after he left, then I am mistaken?

( I guess its a what to check when buying a 24, still great boats to sail thanks to the late Mr Farrier)

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Sailabout you may consider visiting the google and do some research on the Farrier/Corsair history. I'm no Corsair expert but Ian left there specifically because of the type of problems you are dealing with. Short story there is Corsair management wouldn't build to Ians detailed engineering/design plans because it was too costly/time consuming so they did it their way, tried to cut corners etc. which is why most have some sort of problem either out of the box or later down the road. This isn't to bash on Corsair as they did/do what they can to build a good enough product at a price point the market can accept-basically cheap enough and fast enough. You could build it right, still do so quickly but it would likely cost a good deal more. Or you can build it right at a reasonable price point but not very quickly which is my understanding of the F-22 production situation. This approach also mirrors the Exocet Moth build approach (limited to 20 a year as well to avoid a cut in quality or hike in price).

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

1, 2, and 3 just says he engineered them well enough for his engineering, not as well as they could be, ( but thats my opinion) thats the old make it thicker and it wont crack?

for the Corsair 24...

Do your bulkheads line up with the ama beams?

Does the traveler run between the aft beams?

Beam hold down bolts sitting on multipiece stainless brackets in shear ( they are vertical) so close to the  deck hull join you have a fight between lamination and backing plate and screw size?

The ama molding doesnt hold the bushes in to the top strut outside pin so when they get pushed out the ama can and does go up and down the movement creates a huge force in shear on those 2 screws and the deck ( mainly the front) with the 1/2" bolt in it. If you dont catch it early it either shears the screws or tears the deck or both. Most catch to due to the leak it creates inside.

Deck cracks under traveler where it turns down 90 degree in the cockpit as its taking the sheet load with zero extra reinforcement on the corner as bulkhead is forward at the aft beam.

More laminate covers all of the above, better detailed design would also cure it.

Ask a boat builder that fixes them, every time they look and say how was that ever going to work?

Maybe Corsairs various owners changed everything after he left, then I am mistaken?

( I guess its a what to check when buying a 24, still great boats to sail thanks to the late Mr Farrier)

Sailabout you seem to have a fair degree of bitter and twisted and are doing the equivalent of picking on Mercedes engineers based on your 20 your old POS from a used car lot.

Samc has done a good answer for but to waste a minute of my time as your Google:

I owned an old and tired F24 Mk II for years and it was nothing like what you have said. Mine crossed OZ and was thrashed and then crossed to NZ and is getting thrashed and still is a great example of Farrier/Ostac (predecessor of Corsair here). All moving parts were like swiss watch components, traveller nothing like your report here. One big thing for all owners of all Farrier/Corsairs is to be careful with shim thicknesses where beams contact hulls. Refer to many sources for the document on that. Google Intrigue F24 or PM me for help if you can't manage the basics. Pic below to get you started.

Perhaps yours is Mk I which was a big swerve of Corsair away from Ian's design. No boat builders here have had to do any of the fixes you have described, but the sensible place to start is the Groups.IO forum FCT, replacing the old yahoo forums, and see if some guys with similar experiences can help you out.

F-24Helena2004.jpg.d78510b92942b94971edafef762df345.jpg

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Sailabout I don’t see any of those problems with this boat and it is raced regularly (at least weekly) and hard. It was plan built with detailed support by IF and to me as the owner. It’s just a delight to own and sail. And it’s light. 815kg ready to race with five sails, motor, and everything else needed.

 

8CE8FF8A-7746-4D5A-BB86-38BC117176FB.jpeg

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My observations were Corsairs, the debate is are they Farrier engineered or Corsair engineered?

Not bitter and twisted just an basic observation., Not to confuse those 3 separate  issues that effect all boats, design, engineering and build

Yes shimming beams is important but if the bush issue has happened it stresses the inboard end and that exposes the next weak link.

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5 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

My observations were Corsairs, the debate is are they Farrier engineered or Corsair engineered?

Well I had a Sprint before my F22 and it was bulletproof. Somebody in San Diego did it well. 

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Sailabout does have a point that there are 3 issues...design, engineering and build.  IF was "deliberate" (nice way of saying slow and methodical) related to all 3.  His method for Quality Control  of the build was a good one for its time.   More modern and faster Quality Assurance techniques exist for use in today's manufacturing but aren't used extensively in boat building.  After all, boats are not truly "mass produced" so we use the techniques that the shoemaker in 1477 used (make sure it fits after I've made it).   Had the Viet factory (Triac Composites)  used even basic QC I wouldn't have had to fix their "bash to fit" mistakes.  Face it, production schedules cause idiot workers (they aren't really idiots, just not fully knowledgeable about what makes a boat do what it does in detail) to do "less than perfect" work and in asian/viet yards (factories) we get less supervision of the factory floor and the supervisors are also more interested in schedule than build quality.  After all, the factory gets paid by the piece (boat) when it is finished and most mistakes won't be "found out" prior to payment.
 

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6 hours ago, whereisloulounow said:

I think that's a little harsh to speak of the dead like that. Ian Farrier actually started Farrier Marine, and built close to 20 F-22s before passing. In it's new guise as Farrier International we have already sped up production with a little streamlining here and there so the orders that are on the books can be fulfilled a lot earlier.

 

Thats good news, so no more one laminate a week, which was perfect for the home builder but not so good for production

I hope its a great success so Ian's name and designs live on forever, he certainly deserves that.

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On 8/19/2018 at 8:45 AM, Loose Cannon said:

The GBs

 

9 hours ago, whereisloulounow said:

Not true. It's an entirely different establishment.

Then forgive me, since you have greater insight on the decision to partner for production, what were the reasons Ian chose them to do us builds?

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19 hours ago, whereisloulounow said:

Which expired prior to Ian's passing.

You seem to know what´s happening. Could you tell us at least your side of the story how is the present state of Farrier boats manufacturing?

Is Multihull Direct totallly out of the business?

maybe they still going to build F-33 and F-45 while F-22 are built in NZ and US?

(MD site says they are exclusively licenced for F-33 and F-45, but they don´t even publish Ian´s death so their website is pretty old) 

or maybe they´ll only finish the boats they started?

or are you in a legal dispute over those things and can´t say anything?

 

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Insurance... where do you get insurance from!!??? Weve got a farrier 82r in Wellington New Zealand Zealand can't get full insurance at all even thou we keep it in a marina. Any ideas?

 

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2 hours ago, whereisloulounow said:

There's a lot of questions there my friend! Farrier International is an entirely new company. We have no legal dispute with anyone so it would be imprudent to comment on that.

Multihulls Direct do indeed seem to have a lot going on, and I've watched their work from afar and from before my engagement here with interest. As to what they intend to do with that business and their production, you would be best served to ask them.

Thanks to everyone here for allowing me to answer some questions, and clarify a couple of points, I hope! Have a great weekend, fair winds, happy sailing, over and out... :-)

at the rate you are answering questions, people are going to get tired of asking really soon

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19 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

 

Then forgive me, since you have greater insight on the decision to partner for production, what were the reasons Ian chose them to do us builds?

Multihulls direct have F22 molds, I wonder who owns them, can they sell boats made with these?

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On 9/1/2018 at 11:44 AM, jamez said:

Wasn't there a factory set up in the Phillipines around 2016 to boost production rate? What happened with that?

I did asked that myself for the F33 molds what they did construct there, there is no word about them only about the F22, those molds where constructed at Farrier marine.

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  • 1 month later...

I have to question the idea that some differences in affordability would create sales out of thin air...I had my 2008 Sprint listed here in the Classifieds for 3 months and don't think I got a single inquiry on it. It's 35K and, as some said above, "bulletproof" in the way it is built. For most who want to just mess around on the water, they could buy something from 25-40K which would suit them perfectly - yet the used boats, even in good condition, aren't selling.

Remember, Farrier built up a hype for many many years....so it's not surprising that there is an initial load of these boats which are selling or would sell. A bigger question becomes what is the sustained "run rate" once those initial orders have been filled. We may all be over-estimating the demand for Farrier Designed 22 and 24' (and many other) tris and cats. I have seen the same thing happen in many businesses I have been involved in - WE know the widget or thingy is great and therefore we think a large number can be sold. 

The Market can be a tough boss. But, in summary, if solid used boats aren't flying out the door at 1/2 or 1/3rd the price of a new one, things don't look real bright to me. The only thing not really figured in this particular opinion is OD - that is, I don't know what the demand might be for fleets in certain areas. But, still, it's hard to see 100's of boats at @90K each selling for such purposes.

The tough thing about sailing is that those with the desire...and money..often don't have the time. Those with the time don't have the money or don't live in the right places. This season, while sailing in Portsmouth (RI), I'd say  that most of my sailing was done with zero sailboats in sight in the 10 sq mile or so areas I typically inhabit. None. 

Obviously I am talking USA. More civilized countries like France may have more leisure - and therefore more market. 

Hey, I hope everyone makes big money and good boats. I have certainly never sailed anything which was as much fun for the $$ spent....as well as practical and safe. 

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I dunno whether or not the stats are true, but the owner of Windrider stated recently at the small tri's website (http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/) that in the US there's been a decline of new boat sales by 30% over the past 2 years.  He further asserted that only 5000 sailboats would be sold in 2018-from Beneteau 52s down to Windrider tango's.  He also said that 25% of US sailboat manufacturers went out of business.  Which is weird, to me, since I always felt that the end of a bear market was also the time that sailboats were being sold (and the past 2 years have been pretty bullish).  The small tri guy (website owner) asserted that the average sailboat owner is 60.  And, of course, I bought my SeaRail a year ago.  

Perhaps because the SF Bay area is year round sailing with really nice wind (and folks around here seem to have a lot of disposable income), the market is pretty robust-sold my boats with little advo and pretty quickly.    

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, whereisloulounow said:

Yes! We were there and had a great response. It's not a merger as much as an acquisition, and as an update:

As we have managed to increase production out of our NZ factory thanks to Rob and his team there, the efficiencies in producing the F-22 in the US may not be warranted, however, this leaves our production space here open and given  the demand at the show it seems that the F-33 will be our next model to be re-launched and built in the US.

 

 

1 hour ago, whereisloulounow said:

Yes! We were there and had a great response. It's not a merger as much as an acquisition, and as an update:

As we have managed to increase production out of our NZ factory thanks to Rob and his team there, the efficiencies in producing the F-22 in the US may not be warranted, however, this leaves our production space here open and given  the demand at the show it seems that the F-33 will be our next model to be re-launched and built in the US.

 

So does that mean Multihulls Direct will no longer build F33s? That would be too bad. They built a nice product and have the tooling to build many more.

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22 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

 

So does that mean Multihulls Direct will no longer build F33s? That would be too bad. They built a nice product and have the tooling to build many more.

 

15 minutes ago, whereisloulounow said:

As I previously mentioned, that relationship was severed prior to Ian's death, and it would be imprudent for me to answer to this I'm afraid.

this seems to match how the F-22 production was taking shape in Multihulls direct, and then went silent before starting 

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The Multihulls Direct web site describes themselves as "Multihulls Direct is a premier builder specializing in Farrier designs"

No mention of Grainger.

I emailed them two months ago and have yet to receive a response. If they are still in business then they are awfully secretive about it.

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7 hours ago, whereisloulounow said:

Yes! We were there and had a great response. It's not a merger as much as an acquisition, and as an update:

As we have managed to increase production out of our NZ factory thanks to Rob and his team there, the efficiencies in producing the F-22 in the US may not be warranted, however, this leaves our production space here open and given  the demand at the show it seems that the F-33 will be our next model to be re-launched and built in the US.

 

Lets do some math.  

June 2017 F22 hull # 13 was being shipped.  June 2018 F22 hull #17 was being sailed.  

Production of boats in one year = 4.  Hmmm!!!  Maybe you all should reconsider that USA building plan. It may be needed.

Cheers,  

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7 minutes ago, whereisloulounow said:

Hey! Loving the negativity and trolling! ;-) We only officially took over the company in August, on the 1st, and have just shipped #23 and started production on #28. The team in New Zealand have really pulled together and are doing an amazing job getting things moving, and we have a build time of 4.5weeks currently meaning that we're solidly lining up our build slots for next year. Not sure why there's the angst; do you have a deposit waiting in the list somewhere? Perhaps I can help you jump up the list a bit: nudge nudge... (JOKES!)

 

Please don´t interpret that as negativity. People here have followed the development of the F-22 in detail and we know every little thing that Ian published over the years. Vaplaya is a possible customer, far from a troll. This is people very interested in your product and anxious for good news, but a bit wary of commercial spin. You haven´t met our trolls and angry posters yet!

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12 minutes ago, whereisloulounow said:

Hey! Loving the negativity and trolling! ;-) We only officially took over the company in August, on the 1st, and have just shipped #23 and started production on #28. The team in New Zealand have really pulled together and are doing an amazing job getting things moving, and we have a build time of 4.5weeks currently meaning that we're solidly lining up our build slots for next year. Not sure why there's the angst; do you have a deposit waiting in the list somewhere? Perhaps I can help you jump up the list a bit: nudge nudge... (JOKES!)

 

Glad things are going well with the F22's - Looks like an awesome boat  ! 

They would be perfect down here in Sarasota Bay Florida - looking forward to seeing one in person.

 

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3 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

Please don´t interpret that as negativity. People here have followed the development of the F-22 in detail and we know every little thing that Ian published over the years. Vaplaya is a possible customer, far from a troll. This is people very interested in your product and anxious for good news, but a bit wary of commercial spin. You haven´t met our trolls and angry posters yet!

Thanks Sailplane!!!!!  

Yes, the F22 is one of my potential retirement boats. So I am a potential costumer. 

I just did not know that stating the facts according to the information in the Website and simple math was considered trolling by some. Oh well!!!  :)

I am glad that you all are up to #23 and much faster build time. I cannot wait to see one sailing in the mid-atlantic. 

Cheers, 

 

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