Next Level 15 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 So, there are currently 3 Cookson 12's listed for sale in Aus. Philosophers, OCL and now No Fearr. Question is - they all are quite different in terms of big wheel, two small wheels and 1 being tiller steered. They have different layouts downstairs, L shaped galley on two, straight on the last, two forward facing nav stations, 1 in reverse...so they are all different in that respect but from what I have heard, they are good boats that rate well generally. Which one would you buy??? OCL $180K AUD https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/221267 Philosophers $187K https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/205576 No Fearr $155k https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/223709 Go....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PIL66 - XL2 920 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Philosophers..... would cost plenty to get the other two up to this boats condition 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, PIL66 said: Philosophers..... would cost plenty to get the other two up to this boats condition Philosophers probably needs some money spent on optimisation to be serious under IRC but I'd tend to agree, it's in excellent shape. IIRC it was originally built as Akatea by a Cookson employee for himself so will be well finished. It is way heavier than a C12 should be - due to an oversize keel bulb. No Fearr is the lightest by a good margin but probably pretty tender and not as great an all rounder I'd imagine, plus a lot older. OCL 1 is in the sweet spot in terms of configuration but (unless it's been changed) the rig is a little heavy as is the donk. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill E Goat 296 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Sorro mentioned he preferred his Sydney 36 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Next Level 15 Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said: Sorro mentioned he preferred his Sydney 36 Did he explain why? I also like the 36's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
terrafirma 1,124 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I'd be low balling those prices a fair bit. I also think Philosophers with the turbo mods, new sails including square top main etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
terrafirma 1,124 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, hoppy said: They are all a bit disappointing compared to Voodoo/Cunning Plan. It's little wonder it has been sold twice in the time Philosophers has been listed http://sundancemarine.com.au/brokerage/sail-yacht/cookson-12-cunning-plan/ Philosophers looks the best of all still listed. Yeah 2005 model boat which is a lot younger than Philosophers and what was Voodoo sold for to put the rest into perspective? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, hoppy said: No idea on sale price but it was listed for around 230k or 240k.... Looking at the photos of all 4, they all seem to be priced relative to how they compare. So they are all equally optimistic price wise. It does seem that the top/newer/best/highest priced boats seem to be selling quickest. Whilst older boats with low prices seem to struggle, even when they are priced at a realistic level. Knowing what SailExchange - ex About Time sold for about a year ago I'd say those boats are well priced. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, terrafirma said: I'd be low balling those prices a fair bit. I also think Philosophers with the turbo mods, new sails including square top main etc. Sadly the turbo mods don't work, it rates way too high to be competitive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Next Level 15 Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, DickDastardly said: Sadly the turbo mods don't work, it rates way too high to be competitive. what specifically are the turbo mods, sq top and sprit...anything else major which has blown the rating out? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCANAS 525 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, DickDastardly said: Sadly the turbo mods don't work, it rates way too high to be competitive. It’s not always about the rating. IRC, like OD, only works when the chequebook’s match too! Sure there are some Bandits & if you like $10 pickle dishes (unless you got those six figure yearly boat $’s to chase after rolexes) go towards the light! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Change 3 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 IMHO Philosophers not in as good shape as photos suggest. Going to need a lot of sails and a new keel to be competitive Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaggybaxter 1,688 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Well, Sailexchange was the only boat that caught and passed us on the square run in the B2G, so whatever DD did to sailexchange is a good starting point for reference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Next Level said: what specifically are the turbo mods, sq top and sprit...anything else major which has blown the rating out? Philosophers rates 1.135, SailExchange 1.112. Big difference for the same design. The sprit isn't anything special - they pretty much all have those. Square top, extra tall rig, extra deep keel, big kites and very heavy bulb. Despite a much bigger rig Philosophers is slower than SailExchange and to a lesser extent Grace O'Malley downwind - just too much drag. It's pretty good upwind in anything above around 6 knots. The Farr Design office once told me that the design's (Design #336) original displacement was targeted below 4800kg - but that was for the light airs North American market. Sweet spot in local conditions looks around 5000kg +/-. Last I looked, Philosophers was over 400kg heavier than SailExchange and Grace O'Malley and No Fearr are lighter still. Cunning Plan / Voodoo is also around 5000. No Fearr is an extra low drag setup being light with the original, shallower cast lead IMS keel but will be pretty tender. SailExchange and OCL1 were built together in 2000 and also have the original keel, the other boats are deeper and have fabricated steel fins and bigger bulbs. There's a Farr 39ML called Samurai Jack sailing out of Brisbane too - that's the original US built version with the same hull and appendages but a more racer deck and interior. The Cookson 12 was Mick's take on that design, more cruiser racer oriented. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, shaggybaxter said: Well, Sailexchange was the only boat that caught and passed us on the square run in the B2G, so whatever DD did to sailexchange is a good starting point for reference. About 15 years of careful tweaking, weight reduction, three rigs and foil shape optimisation. I know Carl has done more optimisation since he bought it but not sure what exactly, the rating is about the same. It's very fast downwind in light to moderate conditions despite (IIRC) having the smallest of the C12 rigs. Lots of hull rocker and fine ends makes the design a little squirrelly downwind in a blow but it's manageable. The current rig is a glamour and is 30% ligher than the rig it was launched with. We had a couple of keel design studies done along the way but never pressed the go button on those, the trade-offs weren't worth it so we stuck with the original IMS keel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frogman56 89 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Think the lightest one is sail exchange. Then in order, No Fearr Grace O Philosophers Philosophers has about 20% more RM than sail X. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, Frogman56 said: Think the lightest one is sail exchange. Then in order, No Fearr Grace O Philosophers Philosophers has about 20% more RM than sail X. IIRC No Fearr is lighter than SailExchange, as is Grace O and Voodoo (just). They mostly have ORCi certificates, NoFearr doesn't but its IRC DLR was way lower than the others last I looked. No Fearr Grace O Cunning Plan/Voodoo SailExchange OCL1 Philosophers - and with all that extra RM the rig would have to be a lot heavier and stronger than the lighter boats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frogman56 89 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Hmmm, Est irc dsps: Philosophers 5340 Grace 5070 Sail X 4940 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pulpit 193 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 24 minutes ago, DickDastardly said: There's a Farr 39ML called Samurai Jack sailing out of Brisbane too - that's the original US built version with the same hull and appendages but a more racer deck and interior. The Cookson 12 was Mick's take on that design, more cruiser racer oriented. Dick, Samurai Jack has changed the keel to a deeper one. Mick added about 18” to the draft. He add a extension to the bottlom fin about 2 years ago. He has also added a bowsprit as well. pulpit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
terrafirma 1,124 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Some good IRC information here for a prospective buyer. Perhaps there needs to be a thread alert for the next IRC potential winner when one comes to market? I noticed a TP52 for sale for around $300k compared to Philosopher $180k that's not bad buying given you can always access slightly used TP52 sails on the open market. If the coin allowed that's what I'd be buying (Ex M3) if I was in the market and could afford the extra $120k Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frogman56 89 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Terra, Not about the purchase price. To run the Cookson needs (say) 120k per annum at the level we are considering. Around 3x that for TP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PIL66 - XL2 920 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Frogman56 said: Terra, Not about the purchase price. To run the Cookson needs (say) 120k per annum at the level we are considering. Around 3x that for TP. I would not think 3 x Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 9 hours ago, pulpit said: Dick, Samurai Jack has changed the keel to a deeper one. Mick added about 18” to the draft. He add a extension to the bottlom fin about 2 years ago. He has also added a bowsprit as well. pulpit stand corrected! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, PIL66 said: I would not think 3 x I've heard $350K from a TP52 owner Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PIL66 - XL2 920 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, DickDastardly said: I've heard $350K from a TP52 owner Yes, Marcus and Matt ever more $ ...That figure surely would be on the high end BUT... no one buying an old cookson or TP52 (pholosiphers / M3) on that budget would spend one to two times the purchase price per year moving forward to be competitive. Unless they are new to the sport and get taken for the newbie ride ...... and we've all seen that. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 10 hours ago, Frogman56 said: Hmmm, Est irc dsps: Philosophers 5340 Grace 5070 Sail X 4940 I know SailX is heavier than Grace, I've worked on and sailed both boats - albeit under their previous ownership. Slightly misleading description too - IRC DSP is a confected number that adds (unspecified) weight factors to empty boat weight to arrive at some proxy of sailing displacement. When I raced SailX IRC DSP was up around 5800. The numbers you have there are empty boat weights - and they ought to reflect the displacements reported on ORCi Certificates within measurement error as the empty boat cases under the two rules are pretty close. IRC is a weighed value, ORCi is calculated from floatations. Assuming the scale is calibrated, the ORCi water density is right, the offset file is good and the freeboards are measured accurately (almost impossible to do) then the two numbers should be very close. From previous certificates I know that the number reported on SailX current ORCi cert (5044) is within 20kg of the measured weight under IRC. Grace O (4818) is within around 100kg. There was a bit of a measurement issue with that boat several years back under the previous owner (not his doing, a measurer cockup) and at one point its IRC and ORCi displacements were 600kg apart - on a 5 tonne boat... But the measurement authorities weren't interested, despite a howling error. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, PIL66 said: Yes, Marcus and Matt ever more $ ...That figure surely would be on the high end BUT... no one buying an old cookson or TP52 (pholosiphers / M3) on that budget would spend one to two times the purchase price per year moving forward to be competitive. Unless they are new to the sport and get taken for the newbie ride ...... and we've all seen that. Dead right, that $350K was from a more pro-am boat. I'm sure Matt and Marcus would spend way more than that. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 10 hours ago, Frogman56 said: Hmmm, Est irc dsps: Philosophers 5340 Grace 5070 Sail X 4940 Those are all heavier than the only one here in the states (White Cloud, ex. Stackerlee when in NZ) which weighs in at 4,870k (empty boat, no sails on board). with a tin spar. Standard keel and ballast package, but with mast head kites and short sprit. Sales prices are higher as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I see there's a new C12 in the ORCi database listed as being in Australia called "Kukerchu" - new one on me, maybe someone's just imported one. Has a pretty wacky looking certificate - massive sprit and 150+ sqm A Sails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bushsailor 91 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 How much different are Cooksons compared to a Farr40 in hull shape? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 51 minutes ago, bushsailor said: How much different are Cooksons compared to a Farr40 in hull shape? Farr 40 designed as owner/driver boat, so easier to drive with fuller bow, more form stability but more sail area/power as the crews were more assumed to be more pro/am level. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill E Goat 296 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 23 minutes ago, hoppy said: The measurements of Kukerchu are pretty fucked up. The SHW & SFL and the A sail area the same as Voodoo. Only the TPS is different, looking like a measurement/cutnpast fuckup. Thats a 21ft bowsprit - cool, Must be ex 12ft skiff sailors Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Couta 478 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Sailing little Voodoo (C12) for a season mainly round windward leewards in Port Phillip Bay - we couldn't make the numbers work for the Assy.....lots of ideas tried & some real numbers tested (DickD knows his stuff!!) Our conclusion was shortish W/L were not for assys - bigger courses esp ocean races it worked well! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 7 hours ago, bushsailor said: How much different are Cooksons compared to a Farr40 in hull shape? IThe Farr 40 (Design 378) was developed from the C12 / Farr 39ML (Design 336) hull shape. C12 is sorta like a blown up Mumm 30 (Design 338) in a way. Farr was doing very good boats around then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 hours ago, hoppy said: It has the same build date as Voodoo 06/2005 , same displacement, draft, rig directions.... Voodoo with a new name and new sprit Same hull measurement date ... yep. Same boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frogman56 89 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 IRC uses empty weigh, then adds a number that roughly (+/- 30 kg) equates to allowable crew weight to calculate DLR..... which drives the tcf significantly. ORCi disp will inevitably be less accurate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 16 hours ago, Couta said: Sailing little Voodoo (C12) for a season mainly round windward leewards in Port Phillip Bay - we couldn't make the numbers work for the Assy.....lots of ideas tried & some real numbers tested (DickD knows his stuff!!) Our conclusion was shortish W/L were not for assys - bigger courses esp ocean races it worked well! Just like the Farr 40 found out, the boat really needed larger kites than the fractional set-up provided in our light air region. We have either under 15 or over 25. Without going masthead and the sprit, a-sails were not useful. With masthead symmetrical kites with a penalty pole, versus a-sails on a short 30" sprit, we found that the crossover point was a minimum of 12 knots true to make the symmetrical kites competitive. Below that, the a-sails are definitely favored, no matter what the course, except for tactical reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 33 minutes ago, Left Shift said: Just like the Farr 40 found out, the boat really needed larger kites than the fractional set-up provided in our light air region. We have either under 15 or over 25. Without going masthead and the sprit, a-sails were not useful. With masthead symmetrical kites with a penalty pole, versus a-sails on a short 30" sprit, we found that the crossover point was a minimum of 12 knots true to make the symmetrical kites competitive. Below that, the a-sails are definitely favored, no matter what the course, except for tactical reasons. We found on About Time (now SailExchange) that S Kites always paid. You're quite right aboout the need for masthead kites, the fractional was an IMS artefact. Also right about the tactical considerations. Additionally, in marginal surfing conditions the S Kite pays on that boat as you're typically sailing angles closer to the wave direction, A sail means zig-zag across the waves and less assistance from them. We had a couple of A sails, typically only used for reaching legs offshore and occasionally downwind over 25 knots TWS - dependening on sea state and who was driving. The boats don't have a huge amount of stability so at their medium displacement, their ability to really get up and boogie under an A sail is limited. We ran an overlength pole for big masthead S Kites and a short sprit for code zeroes which were very effective in the light, until we ran out of stability. We only ever ran a factional zero for that reason. We progressivley increased spinnaker size over the years from 106sqm to around 133 but we probably could have gone bigger still as IRC is pretty generous in that area. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, DickDastardly said: We found on About Time (now SailExchange) that S Kites always paid. You're quite right aboout the need for masthead kites, the fractional was an IMS artefact. Also right about the tactical considerations. Additionally, in marginal surfing conditions the S Kite pays on that boat as you're typically sailing angles closer to the wave direction, A sail means zig-zag across the waves and less assistance from them. We had a couple of A sails, typically only used for reaching legs offshore and occasionally downwind over 25 knots TWS - dependening on sea state and who was driving. The symmetrics were generally superior - the boats don't have a huge amount of stability so at their medium displacement, their ability to really get up and boogie under an A sail is limited. We ran an overlength pole for big masthead S Kites and a short sprit for code zeroes which were very effective in the light, until we ran out of stability. We only ever ran a factional zero for that reason. We progressivley increased spinnaker size over the years from 106sqm to around 133 but we probably could have gone bigger still as IRC is pretty generous in that area. We don't have a lot of waves even on longer courses, and no swells. Short, steep wind-driven and current-formed chop when the wind is up. So different downhill game. Run deep and you plant the bow. Our masthead symms and a-sails were both about 1,480 SF (about 138 sqm ). Yes, we occasionally went tippy, but the 3/4 oz. masthead runner was a lot of fun. The large a-sails were very welcome in light stuff, flat water. Masthead Code 0 also welcome. When it worked, the boat lit up, but had its upper wind range for sure, of about 15-18 true depending on angle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Longman 2 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Out of interest what are the big differences between a cookson 12 and a Sydney 38? and how they sail? One obvious one is the weight. An orci cert of a 38 has the weight at 5344kg (mondo) vers the cookson Grace at 4818 Sail areas are pretty similar (with in 5-10%) the draft is 20cm less and they have a tin rig. So I guess the cookson has more RM? I only sailed the cookson for the first time offshore the other weekend in the bass island race and was quite surprised how well it hung onto the modified farr 40. having sailed farr 40 offshore a bit I was surprised how well it sailed for what felt like a much smaller boat. sydney 38 orci.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 9 hours ago, James Chilman said: Out of interest what are the big differences between a cookson 12 and a Sydney 38? and how they sail? One obvious one is the weight. An orci cert of a 38 has the weight at 5344kg (mondo) vers the cookson Grace at 4818 Sail areas are pretty similar (with in 5-10%) the draft is 20cm less and they have a tin rig. So I guess the cookson has more RM? I only sailed the cookson for the first time offshore the other weekend in the bass island race and was quite surprised how well it hung onto the modified farr 40. having sailed farr 40 offshore a bit I was surprised how well it sailed for what felt like a much smaller boat. sydney 38 orci.pdf Yes the weight. Most Sydney 38s have ORCi displacements up over 5500. Even with the tin rig most Sydney 38s are stiffer - C12 is narrower on the waterline with more topside flare. The stiffer C12s would be about equal to a Sydney 38 on RM. S38 is competitive upwind in breeze, C12 is quicker upwind in the light and a lot quicker downwind, less wetted surface, less drag, bigger kites. C12 is less squirrelly downwind too - a noted S38 trait in big breezes. C12 keels vary considerably. Grace O is one of the deeper ones, and probably the stiffest except for Philosophers. Grace had keel surgery back in 2016 to reduce drag and appears well sailed, and overall the C12 is a sweet design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SPORTSCAR 703 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Here's an alternative, fully worked over, fully tricked and ready to go. Way quicker than NF too: https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/bakewell-white-z39/220549 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Next Level 15 Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, SPORTSCAR said: Here's an alternative, fully worked over, fully tricked and ready to go. Way quicker than NF too: https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/bakewell-white-z39/220549 Price tag to go with it too... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaggybaxter 1,688 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Hate the bastard things now. I mean, look at that ridiculous tight sheeting angle, must be near single digits. Real men go try to go to windward with sheeting angles of 20 plus degrees. A pox on these good all round quality boats. No respect for us numpties at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, SPORTSCAR said: Here's an alternative, fully worked over, fully tricked and ready to go. Way quicker than NF too: https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/bakewell-white-z39/220549 Bit of a disclosure fail there Sportscar... "Buy an Ad" Nice boat. Z39 is essentially a Cookson 12 clone, very similar in parameters. Once upon a time this boat sailed around for a couple of years with an ORCi certificate that claimed a mast weight of 335kg - still visible in the old ORCi certificates in the database. That was for a carbon rig, would'a been pretty bulletproof at that weight. Correct weight would be around 170. The measurers and rating authority didn't notice that particular howler. Once addressed the boat sped up somewhat in the eyes of the handicapper. 3 metre draft however? Must be something tricky going on down there now. Good to see it lost the internal ballast. Seriously turboed in this config, reflected in the rating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 38 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said: Hate the bastard things now. I mean, look at that ridiculous tight sheeting angle, must be near single digits. Real men go try to go to windward with sheeting angles of 20 plus degrees. A pox on these good all round quality boats. No respect for us numpties at all. Cookson 12 has a sheeting angle of about 7.5 degrees. Can squeeze the J-3 a bit more. But they are slackers. Good TP52s are between 4.5 and 3.5 degrees. 3.25 is the tightest I’ve seen. If they were working it, they’d have their boom to weather. But they look like they are in foot mood. Nobody pounding the rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaggybaxter 1,688 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 G’day LS, yep, the TP’s are seriously nuts, looking at the latest Ichi as a guide. At 3-4 degrees, does this mean you trim differently? I just can’t understand how any air squeezing through such a narrow slot has any impact , ie: the back of the main. To me, the jib and main combine in the overall wing effect, but airflow through the slot helped “glue” the air to the back of the main and mitigate any separation. I remember something about the air leaving the leech on the leeward and windward sides of the main should be equal velocity and air through the slot helped ? Or is it air of the leeward side of the job that has the most effect on the leech? Does this change with such a narrow angle? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 33 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said: G’day LS, yep, the TP’s are seriously nuts, looking at the latest Ichi as a guide. At 3-4 degrees, does this mean you trim differently? I just can’t understand how any air squeezing through such a narrow slot has any impact , ie: the back of the main. To me, the jib and main combine in the overall wing effect, but airflow through the slot helped “glue” the air to the back of the main and mitigate any separation. I remember something about the air leaving the leech on the leeward and windward sides of the main should be equal velocity and air through the slot helped ? Or is it air of the leeward side of the job that has the most effect on the leech? Does this change with such a narrow angle? At that tight, the boom is maybe a foot to weather and very flat. msin and jib work as one. The airflow around the rig is a single circulation. The “slot” is not an area of increased airflow, but the jib sort of lets the air know that the main is coming, if that makes sense, Tom Whidden wrote good articles about sail flow. Look em up. The situation at the trailing edge of the main is called the” Kutta condition”. Worth looking up. Gotta shed that starting vortex! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SPORTSCAR 703 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 hours ago, DickDastardly said: Bit of a disclosure fail there Sportscar... "Buy an Ad" Nice boat. Z39 is essentially a Cookson 12 clone, very similar in parameters. Once upon a time this boat sailed around for a couple of years with an ORCi certificate that claimed a mast weight of 335kg - still visible in the old ORCi certificates in the database. That was for a carbon rig, would'a been pretty bulletproof at that weight. Correct weight would be around 170. The measurers and rating authority didn't notice that particular howler. Once addressed the boat sped up somewhat in the eyes of the handicapper. 3 metre draft however? Must be something tricky going on down there now. Good to see it lost the internal ballast. Seriously turboed in this config, reflected in the rating. I put that up for the purposes of a valid journalistic comparison. (We buy more ads than most, just not here, but hey, Scooter loves me) I don't think BB-W would take too kindly to the Cookson clone comment. Lots of different designs have similar measurements; its the derivativc nature of yacht design and hardly surprising when they are all trying to serve the same rating master. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hold Fast 33 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 26 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said: I put that up for the purposes of a valid journalistic comparison. (We buy more ads than most, just not here, but hey, Scooter loves me) I don't think BB-W would take too kindly to the Cookson clone comment. Lots of different designs have similar measurements; its the derivativc nature of yacht design and hardly surprising when they are all trying to serve the same rating master. out of interest how much weight is in the keel of this thing? seems like a pretty equivalent weight to the C12's, with less going on down below. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 46 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said: I put that up for the purposes of a valid journalistic comparison. (We buy more ads than most, just not here, but hey, Scooter loves me) I don't think BB-W would take too kindly to the Cookson clone comment. Lots of different designs have similar measurements; its the derivativc nature of yacht design and hardly surprising when they are all trying to serve the same rating master. Just yanking your chain dude! Z39 was originally intended to be a sort of offshore one design class, BB-W won a design competition. I spoke to Brett about that comparison many years back and he admitted that it was very close to a C12. And having looked at that particular boat in detail a while back I'd concur. Hull shape very similar, Z39 about 70mm shorter and 70mm narrower. Keel was more modern, fabricated fin and T bulb, draft was the same as the earlier IMS version of the C12, design displacement a fraction heavier than a C12, deck and interior layouts identical and rig the same size. Didn't originally have the fixed prodder, had a pole and a telescopic dick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Left Shift said: Cookson 12 has a sheeting angle of about 7.5 degrees. Can squeeze the J-3 a bit more. But they are slackers. Good TP52s are between 4.5 and 3.5 degrees. 3.25 is the tightest I’ve seen. If they were working it, they’d have their boom to weather. But they look like they are in foot mood. Nobody pounding the rail. Looks like they're sailing 2 handed in that lower pic. The upper pic looks like light air Sydney slop in a sick easterly - S2H start I'd be guessing by the decals and spectator fleet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 34 minutes ago, DickDastardly said: Looks like they're sailing 2 handed in that lower pic. The upper pic looks like light air Sydney slop in a sick easterly - S2H start I'd be guessing by the decals and spectator fleet Interesting. I'd be tempted to have one or two bodies on the rail and definitely forward out of the cockpit. But maybe that B/W has a fuller butt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SPORTSCAR 703 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, DickDastardly said: Just yanking your chain dude! Z39 was originally intended to be a sort of offshore one design class, BB-W won a design competition. I spoke to Brett about that comparison many years back and he admitted that it was very close to a C12. And having looked at that particular boat in detail a while back I'd concur. Hull shape very similar, Z39 about 70mm shorter and 70mm narrower. Keel was more modern, fabricated fin and T bulb, draft was the same as the earlier IMS version of the C12, design displacement a fraction heavier than a C12, deck and interior layouts identical and rig the same size. Didn't originally have the fixed prodder, had a pole and a telescopic dick. Yeah, familiar with JPs history; my son's godfather used to sail on her in Wgtn and we sold the other Z-39, still pretty much in original configuration to Hobart a few years back too. Jazzy is largely unrecognisable from the original Z-39 in just about every respect except the name. Massive upgrades to rig, sail plan, keel, interior layout and weight distribution, deck layout and handling systems. It has all been done with a great deal of careful thought and to a very high standard. And she's very much quicker too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
resist 31 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Speaking in mere journalistic comparison of course Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 38 minutes ago, resist said: Speaking in mere journalistic comparison of course Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Next Level 15 Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 8 minutes ago, hoppy said: How do the Archambault 40 and the 40RC compare to the Cookson 12? https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/archambault-a40/223835 I was speaking to the owner of this boat last year in Customs House after Hobart. Seems like a well run boat. If i remember correctly, they did Melb-Hobart and had a few drama's on the way down. Can't comment on how they compare to a C12 though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 20 minutes ago, hoppy said: How do the Archambault 40 and the 40RC compare to the Cookson 12? https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/archambault-a40/223835 Two quick takes: Looks like a very small A kite. Hard to tell, but the coach house and interior looks substantially smaller than the C12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 3 hours ago, hoppy said: How do the Archambault 40 and the 40RC compare to the Cookson 12? https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/archambault-a40/223835 A ton and a half heavier, less sail, alloy rig, more stability, similar interior, rates lower, significantly slower in most conditions. Designed as an IRC Bandit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TUBBY 314 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 minute ago, DickDastardly said: A ton and a half heavier, less sail, alloy rig, more stability, similar interior, rates lower Rates lower for a reason! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
42 South 27 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 19 hours ago, hoppy said: How do the Archambault 40 and the 40RC compare to the Cookson 12? https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/archambault-a40/223835 Who is the agent "Just Boats" - can't find anything about them on the interweb thingy and they only have 3 sail boat listings on yachthub, none that I can find on boatsales..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frogman56 89 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 The Archies do not seem competitive, in the ocean at least. In bumpy water they seem to get sticky, too much wetted surface and immersion, then downhill, less able to surf or plane.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flatbag 51 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Just noticed on a rare visit to Bookface, Yoti having Philosophers surveyed for a punter today 31/10 That's taken a while, by now she's probs a few bucks down on asking I would reckon. Good boat, ex Akatea that one. Hard to tell with No Fearr if she's just a slow C-40 or just not all that well sailed. Hasn't done much for years since Coombsy had it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flatbag 51 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Noticed No Fear is no longer on the brokers listings and they don't claim to have sold it. Did it sell or was it pulled from sale? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Third Reef 26 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 On 11/13/2018 at 5:29 PM, Flatbag said: Noticed No Fear is no longer on the brokers listings and they don't claim to have sold it. Did it sell or was it pulled from sale? It was jist relisted in yachthub. Looks like it is still for sale. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12-custom/225424 with so many for many C12’s on the market, we might see one on Hoppy’s list as prices drop. 3R Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frogman56 89 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Philosophers gone back to nz..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Third Reef 26 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, hoppy said: Dropped today to $149k https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/221267 Hoppy, It’s getting closer to your list every day ! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, Third Reef said: Hoppy, It’s getting closer to your list every day ! 3 Just as soon as a cure for cancer and global poverty have been addressed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flatbag 51 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, mad said: Just as soon as a cure for cancer and global poverty have been addressed. Don't forget world peace and abolition of the 2nd amendment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaggybaxter 1,688 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 On 12/4/2018 at 10:19 PM, Flatbag said: Don't forget world peace and abolition of the 2nd amendment. World peace we could give a pretty serious nudge, but man....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Third Reef 26 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 NoFearr now listed any $129k https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/225424 Out of interest do the Cookson 12’s have cored hulls ? The certificates all say cored, but the brokers list “GRP” . A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nroose 210 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 GRP means "fiberglass", which can be monolithic or cored. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flatbag 51 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 On 4/24/2019 at 12:46 PM, Third Reef said: NoFearr now listed any $129k https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/225424 Out of interest do the Cookson 12’s have cored hulls ? The certificates all say cored, but the brokers list “GRP” . A I seriously doubt that arrogant dick-head broker would have a clue. Since Jade Cole left them over a year ago they haven't had anyone there with much knowledge about such things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Third Reef 26 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 16 hours ago, Flatbag said: Since Jade Cole left them over a year ago they haven't had anyone there with much knowledge about such things. Jade was amazing. She was able to move some very difficult stock. Loved the Mendana campaign. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoppy 618 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Third Reef said: Jade was amazing. She was able to move some very difficult stock. Loved the Mendana campaign. She did not manage to move my old boat, Sportscar had to do that, but I did like the promo video she put together. She has a pretty impressive sailing CV. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fiji Bitter 1,518 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 21 hours ago, nroose said: GRP means "fiberglass", which can be monolithic or cored. Correct, but the P stands for polyester. Anyway, rather unlikely to be either fiberglas or polyester. Better to call it "composite", can't go wrong with that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 11 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said: Correct, but the P stands for polyester. Anyway, rather unlikely to be either fiberglas or polyester. Better to call it "composite", can't go wrong with that. I always understood it as Glass Reinforced Plastic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chimp too 333 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 28 minutes ago, mad said: I always understood it as Glass Reinforced Plastic. Same here Quote Link to post Share on other sites
charisma94 257 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 ^^ Correct, ....Plastic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nroose 210 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 Yeah, it's plastic. But, in common usage these days, we use the word "plastic" to mean things that are polyester. No one really any more uses the word plastic for anything that isn't polyester. It used to be a more general term. Perhaps that is good in the case of GRP, because then it can mean things that are not polyester. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 On 4/23/2019 at 7:46 PM, Third Reef said: NoFearr now listed any $129k https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cookson-12/225424 Out of interest do the Cookson 12’s have cored hulls ? The certificates all say cored, but the brokers list “GRP” . A Cored. At least mine was. Changed core material above and below waterline. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Left Shift said: Cored. At least mine was. Changed core material above and below waterline. E-Glass over Balsa IIRC 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Third Reef 26 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 6 hours ago, DickDastardly said: E-Glass over Balsa IIRC Thanks Dick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCANAS 525 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 6 hours ago, DickDastardly said: E-Glass over Balsa IIRC Are they all Balsa? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DickDastardly 248 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 18 hours ago, SCANAS said: Are they all Balsa? Not sure about that. As far as I'm aware the hulls were all constructed similarly by Cooksons despite differences in internal configuration, keel and rig. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Left Shift 2,844 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 On 4/29/2019 at 6:15 PM, DickDastardly said: E-Glass over Balsa IIRC Mine was e-glass over Nomex. Very crisp layup. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoppy 618 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Just saw on assbook that Grace O'Malley is about to be listed with Yoti How does she compare to the other cookies that have been posted here? It always seems to be doing well in races so I'm guessing she is one of the best? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gorn FRANTIC!! 404 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Don't worry, you wouldn't be able to afford it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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