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F7 Folding Trimaran...This is interesting


Multihauler

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2 hours ago, Multihauler said:

.... Ian Farrier, and the contact address is in the Philippines. ...

Actually they have the same address and contact phone number as multihulls direct.

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19 minutes ago, overlay said:

After a quick look at the F-BOAT web page  I must ask "has there been a bit of history re writing going on with the news pages"? MultihullsDirect references to the F-22 seem to have  mostly disappeared.

Looking at older copies of the website, I don't see anything missing:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180115232040/http://www.f-boat.com:80/recentnews.html

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Well the price is good let’s see how this pans out.  It does say there is some sort of new beam “ The Latest Beams  Marine grade aluminum struts have pivot points integrated, metal brackets are eliminated - lighter and stronger.”

Don’t know what that means, good or bad.  Need to see a real one.   

I wonder... f-boat is only listing F22S and R models for sale but the original plan for a 60k  base F22 doesn’t exist.  Then they said they are not sure if it’s worth building in US.  Then we see fboat come out with basically a base f22 under 60k...  I hope they are working together but that might be optimistic of me

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Wow

- 50k exworks with dacron main+jib and torqueedo ?

Price is almost too good to be true. But on the other hand, MHD has proven production history in fboats, has the facilities and has at least some molds. Not vaporware. Would it be accurate to say that MHD has built more Fboats than Farrier Marine?

- the branding seems almost trolling and someone is extremely pissed off with Farrier marine, seems they WANT to get sued

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15 minutes ago, sail(plane) said:

looking more carefully, what about the slogan: 

IT’S  AN  F BOAT 
A TRULY GREEN SOLUTION 
"JUST ADD WATER"

wtf is that???

this is so weird that maybe someone is trolling MHD instead??

Doff the tinfoil headgear... patience... the truth will out...

Save the conspiracy theories for where they matter and are much more likely true:
- collusion in governance, deep-state, Bildebergers, etc...
- international banking and finance: BIS, World Bank, Euro-anything...
- alien coverups...

"green sailboats" -  blunted said it best on the c-class thread:

It should not be the job of a class to "save the world". If you are seriously concerned about carbon consumption by sailing, stop sailing, stop driving to regattas, stop sending out tons of coach boats, stop dropping shit in the water at the marina, stop building marinas, stop building boats, stop using gas guzzlers for RC boats, stop buying beer for sailing days. Well you see where that goes pretty quickly, you'll end up at home in your Yurt wrapped in an unbleached alpaca hair blanket sipping tea dreaming about how fun it used to be to sail before being consumed by guilt.

b2b

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6 hours ago, Multihauler said:

New F7 folding trimaran announced...

http://www.fboat.com/

(not http://www.f-boat.com/)

No mention of Ian Farrier, and the contact address is in the Philippines.

3E097135-930F-4DE5-B2A9-E9F472B2625B.png

Looks like the F-22 to me. ;-)

-MH

The render is not even a render, it´s a photoshopped previous render

look at this; or the withe painting with an F in the float

image.png.92658c5397342f7a67084f118b38d449.png

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14 minutes ago, bacq2bacq said:

Doff the tinfoil headgear... patience... the truth will out...

Save the conspiracy theories for where they matter and are much more likely true:
- collusion in governance, deep-state, Bildebergers, etc...
- international banking and finance: BIS, World Bank, Euro-anything...
- alien coverups...

"green sailboats" -  blunted said it best on the c-class thread:

b2b

but but I love conspiracy theories

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A compelling market statement:

“The F 7 is truly the world’s best value in a 7 meter F boat  ...

$49,977 sails & motor incl. all prices in USD...

We will beat any competitive quote supplied for any other similar production trimaran available worldwide”

 

Given some additional credibility by

The  Multihulls Direct team have built and delivered more than 40 Farrier designs”

 

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4 hours ago, Dead air said:

Looks like multihulls direct is rebranding....

So long as there is a license fee being paid somewhere I don't see a problem...

Absent a contract specifying return of molds or molds are not to be copied, I don't see a valid legal claim.

Did Ian have any active patents?  Maybe that's the reason for the "improved" beams.

 

One can only hope that Daedalus builds a decent boat and feels the need to compete on price.  Would be amazing to get an F22 for $50k ex North Carolina.

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49 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Absent a contract specifying return of molds or molds are not to be copied, I don't see a valid legal claim.

Did Ian have any active patents?  Maybe that's the reason for the "improved" beams.

 

One can only hope that Daedalus builds a decent boat and feels the need to compete on price.  Would be amazing to get an F22 for $50k ex North Carolina.

+1  I think if they could get to the 50k mark for a bare bones sail-able boat (Main, Jib, no interior, no motor, and basic trailer) I think folks would line up!  Then you could add all the extra crap you wanted like cushions, head, spin, motor, etc.  

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To me it seems like anything that makes anything "green"er is good. "Better is good".

That said, seems like a Torqueedo has other features that make it appealing on a sailboat anyway.

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Nice factory photos now posted online. 

http://www.fboat.com/factory.html

At US$50k or A$70k this is a bargain and definitely some I got to think closely about.

The build quality on the F-85SR that was built by MHD was exceptional and I have no doubt the F7 would be the same. 

 

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4 hours ago, gthomas72 said:

Nice factory photos now posted online. 

http://www.fboat.com/factory.html

At US$50k or A$70k this is a bargain and definitely some I got to think closely about.

The build quality on the F-85SR that was built by MHD was exceptional and I have no doubt the F7 would be the same. 

 

I wonder how did they stick a reverse bow on an existing hull design (and molds?). If done right, it would impact the hull lines pretty far back, am I right?

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Easy, just cut the existing bottom along the mid seam, widen it by 50mm and make the bow bottom section longer to cope with the now gap, the top section remains the same and voila you have a reverse bow. Make new hull molds ( unlike Farrier there's no liners on the inside ), at that point there's no propriety licencing as its a new design.

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7 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

MHD is much better at boatbuilding than at website building. Which is good! This just got 10x more interesting

Don't get too excited.  No trailer and you have to go there and sail it away or arrange shipping.  Suspect that when you could actually get it here in USA it'd be closer to $65K in a ready to sail condition. 

Like most of these cabin mini tri's they are heavy and under canvassed-so you have some issues in light wind.  Just as a comparison, my 30K 5.8 meter tri (about 4 feet shorter) is half the weight, has a mast that is just a little shorter, has just a little less canvas...but no accommodations to speak of.  The F7 would make a better camper cruiser, no doubt.  But I'd get to the campground quicker and rent a luxury suite with the $25K I saved.

For me, the windows are just something else to weaken and need maintenance...my F242 windows leaked and the plexiglass turned foggy with microscratches within a couple years.  But that's me...YMMV.

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4 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

I wonder how did they stick a reverse bow on an existing hull design (and molds?). If done right, it would impact the hull lines pretty far back, am I right?

That is not nessary I made revers bows on my F32 and I only alterd some in the front section.

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Don't get too excited.  No trailer and you have to go there and sail it away or arrange shipping.  Suspect that when you could actually get it here in USA it'd be closer to $65K in a ready to sail condition. 

$15k for a trailer and container shipping to US?  I think two fit in a container.

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I'm sure there is background politics going on but I think MHD have misplayed this a little.  Even if they couldn't come to terms with the licence holders to build the farrier designs they've built for the last X years.

Some good webdesign and copy writing with phrases like "Having built over 40 Ian Farrier designed trimarans".  "A new design based open the lessons learnt working with Ian Farrier" and smart use of Adwords etc could have cut down on 90% of the angst and got them at least as much interest.

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54 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm sure there is background politics going on but I think MHD have misplayed this a little.  Even if they couldn't come to terms with the licence holders to build the farrier designs they've built for the last X years.

Some good webdesign and copy writing with phrases like "Having built over 40 Ian Farrier designed trimarans".  "A new design based open the lessons learnt working with Ian Farrier" and smart use of Adwords etc could have cut down on 90% of the angst and got them at least as much interest.

Yeah, using the domain name fboat.com seems to be asking for conflict.  Registered at GoDaddy in November, 2017 with contact info in Lahaina, Hawaii.  The WayBack Machine (Internet Archive) has captures dating back to 2002 but is choking right now at displaying any of them.  At one point I saw a notice that the domain was for sale last year for ~$600:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/fboat.com
http://web.archive.org/web/20170921081517/http://fboat.com/

Not terribly impressed with the Daedalus "Press Release Farrirer International - 6 November 2018" for several reasons.  Seems light on gravitas and professionalism, somehow...

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3 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm sure there is background politics going on but I think MHD have misplayed this a little.  Even if they couldn't come to terms with the licence holders to build the farrier designs they've built for the last X years.

Some good webdesign and copy writing with phrases like "Having built over 40 Ian Farrier designed trimarans".  "A new design based open the lessons learnt working with Ian Farrier" and smart use of Adwords etc could have cut down on 90% of the angst and got them at least as much interest.

I can't wait to see what creature comes out the "V-birth" of this development.

Capture.JPG

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4 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Not terribly impressed with the Daedalus "Press Release Farrirer International - 6 November 2018" for several reasons.  Seems light on gravitas and professionalism, somehow...

That’s a very nice way to say “reads like it was written by a pissed off 13 year old”.

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On the websites of both builders do you think you could hire a web developer?  For the price of one of those harken winches they could easily have a pretty nice website.   

 

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I wonder why they are sticking with dacron as the "give away" sails with this offering.  Perhaps just so they can upcharge if you want mylar.  Nothing wrong with dacron, don't get me wrong...just a little heavier handling and certainly will last longer.  But the Philippines has lots of sail manufactories; they could do better (Hyde is there for example).

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On 11/8/2018 at 8:27 PM, mowgli said:

That is not nessary I made revers bows on my F32 and I only alterd some in the front section.

Looking at the main hull bow, it looks like they kept the holes for the bow pole and trailer winch in the original position, as they are now quite far back. Seems to me that MM just added some foam for a sacrificial bow.

img-9347_orig.jpg

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23 minutes ago, teamvmg said:

Best way that I know to make a boat tack slower! [Apart from having me helm it!]

Not really. On these boats, when sailing to windward, the waterline is a loooong way back from the bow. 

 

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2 hours ago, teamvmg said:

Best way that I know to make a boat tack slower! [Apart from having me helm it!]

I have no problem at all with tacking, if you look at my blog you can see that the bow is out of the water.

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I guess this answers the question about who owns the molds in MHD or didnt get paid for them or something complicated?

Boat building just keeps the entertainment coming and has for its whole history.

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yeah but the ring frame is seriously cut back vs F22 plan, the connection at the seats, where that ring frame is supposed to be laminated in appears to have a gap (aka not attached) the edge of said seat portside looks to have a pretty natty 'sander gone awry' mark on the edge of it, etc. etc.

Bad finish, I get, but cutting back the main structural frame and not having it laminated as per the build book (if my eyes don't deceive me) is risky.

Of course, my eyes may deceive me from a zoom in on a single picture....so judge for yourself and if the builder wants to publish more close ups of their workmanship that is up to them.

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6 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

yeah but the ring frame is seriously cut back vs F22 plan, the connection at the seats, where that ring frame is supposed to be laminated in appears to have a gap (aka not attached) the edge of said seat portside looks to have a pretty natty 'sander gone awry' mark on the edge of it, etc. etc.

Bad finish, I get, but cutting back the main structural frame and not having it laminated as per the build book (if my eyes don't deceive me) is risky.

Of course, my eyes may deceive me from a zoom in on a single picture....so judge for yourself and if the builder wants to publish more close ups of their workmanship that is up to them.

I bet that is one of Ian's upgrades because what they have done is consistent with the way this is treated in the F85SR plans.

This just gives a bit more space into the fwd berth.

The ring frame is quite small near the seats however it is strengthened with  a 50mm wide flange. 

That pic looks like this is done and they have missed painting under the flange which makes it look like a gap.

Also the flange is supposed to be on the fwd side of the ring frame. Looking at pics on the Farrier Marine site the ring frame looks the same with the exception of the flange being on the fwd side of the frame. Could they have put the frame in the other way around? I think the only diff would be esthetics.

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Picture is worth a thousand words. From F7 site and a shot from my visit to factory early on in the F-22 days and meeting Ian and a couple shots from the FM website. Flange seems on correct side in F-7 shot. The lack of paint thought might simply be shadowed by flange.

img-9375.jpg

ForwardBunk.jpg

135Interior.jpg

FRInterior.jpg

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Thanks for aiding my bad eyes.  Pics support my statement - Farrier, the flange is fully bonded to the hull.  F7, no bonding to the hull and thus the gap.  Also looks like the aluminum struts on F7 are mounted by bolted on stubs to the hull rather than molded.  Overall, won't speak to legal issues but looks suspiciously like use of Farrier F22 plans.

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8 hours ago, The Mad Hatter said:

Apart from below;-

The difference between adversity and adventure is attitude.

Plus one

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  • 4 months later...
  • 4 months later...

Anyone get an F7 from MHD?  They look pretty sweet to me.  Most reviews I read regarding MHD boats were positive, with, of course, a few niggly things.  I doubt their quality has changed and if I were in the market, I would certainly get one given the $50k-$60k difference from Farrier Marine.  Love FMs boats, but it seems to me IF's original mission was to make a quality affordable product.  I would say MHD has hit the mark, and FM is one for two.

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14 hours ago, efrank said:

Anyone get an F7 from MHD?  They look pretty sweet to me.  Most reviews I read regarding MHD boats were positive, with, of course, a few niggly things.  I doubt their quality has changed and if I were in the market, I would certainly get one given the $50k-$60k difference from Farrier Marine.  Love FMs boats, but it seems to me IF's original mission was to make a quality affordable product.  I would say MHD has hit the mark, and FM is one for two.

Interesting...

You know where the cost savings come from?

Not paying for the intellectual property and design, stealing your advertising, building them with inferior labour, using cheaper materials.

I get it, you are spending less money, and possibly less wait time, but you are getting an inferior product and you AREN'T supporting the people who made this what it really it.

So heads up to any one who gets punched if they rock up at a club of someone who feels fondly for Ian with an "F7".

But is it worth the $20k saving? I highly doubt it will have the re-sale value of the F22s, so the saving probably just turns into money lost when it's time to let it go.

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5 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Interesting...

You know where the cost savings come from?

Not paying for the intellectual property and design, stealing your advertising, building them with inferior labour, using cheaper materials.

I get it, you are spending less money, and possibly less wait time, but you are getting an inferior product and you AREN'T supporting the people who made this what it really it.

So heads up to any one who gets punched if they rock up at a club of someone who feels fondly for Ian with an "F7".

But is it worth the $20k saving? I highly doubt it will have the re-sale value of the F22s, so the saving probably just turns into money lost when it's time to let it go.

I have no idea what promises, agreements, or deals were made between IF, Daedalus, and MD.  Do you?  I had never heard of Daedalus until after Ian passed.

Everything I have read that Ian or Michael Mallory wrote was mutually complimentary.

What inferior materials are they using?  Are they substituting these products without telling the customer?

What do you mean by inferior labor?  Both Farrier Marine's labor force and MHD's labor force have put out a similar amount of boats. I wouldn't begrudge anyone working hard to put food on the table whether they are in Christchurch or Subic Bay.

You say buying a boat from MHD would not be supporting the people who made it what it is?  The guy who made it what it is is unfortunately gone.  May he RIP.  We are left with the people and factories that have produced his boats, one company under his direct supervision and another with him heavily involved.  I don't personally know any of these people.  Maybe you do, so are inclined to vilify one operation and root for the other.

Please don't mistake your perspective for moral superiority and assault people for their choice of boat.  I also admire Ian's designs, unbelievable work ethic, and exceptional support.

Your total cost of ownership argument might prove to be true, but my crystal ball says differently.

Hopefully both companies will prove successful.  It is a beautiful little boat.

 

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4 hours ago, efrank said:

 

Hopefully both companies will prove successful.  It is a beautiful little boat.

 

Agree both companies should compete...Darwin thought highly of competition, survival belongs to the "fittest".  $20K difference is a lot of $. I chose a SeaRail instead of a Pulse because of a $10K price difference.  Agree with previous post that IF wanted to make quality boats more accessible-in fact, this boat's original mantra was "boat in a box for under $20K".  Of course that never happened.  

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11 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Interesting...

You know where the cost savings come from?

Not paying for the intellectual property and design, stealing your advertising, building them with inferior labour, using cheaper materials.

I get it, you are spending less money, and possibly less wait time, but you are getting an inferior product and you AREN'T supporting the people who made this what it really it.

So heads up to any one who gets punched if they rock up at a club of someone who feels fondly for Ian with an "F7".

But is it worth the $20k saving? I highly doubt it will have the re-sale value of the F22s, so the saving probably just turns into money lost when it's time to let it go.

MHD had the support of Ian Farrier, which they presumably paid for.  The F7 came about after he died and someone else revoked their right to build F22s.

 

I don't think the inferior labor or cheaper material claims are true either.  Sure labor is cheaper in that labor market v. NZ, but MHD has lots of experience building F-boats.

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13 hours ago, efrank said:

I have no idea what promises, agreements, or deals were made between IF, Daedalus, and MD.  Do you?  I had never heard of Daedalus until after Ian passed.

Everything I have read that Ian or Michael Mallory wrote was mutually complimentary.

What inferior materials are they using?  Are they substituting these products without telling the customer?

What do you mean by inferior labor?  Both Farrier Marine's labor force and MHD's labor force have put out a similar amount of boats. I wouldn't begrudge anyone working hard to put food on the table whether they are in Christchurch or Subic Bay.

You say buying a boat from MHD would not be supporting the people who made it what it is?  The guy who made it what it is is unfortunately gone.  May he RIP.  We are left with the people and factories that have produced his boats, one company under his direct supervision and another with him heavily involved.  I don't personally know any of these people.  Maybe you do, so are inclined to vilify one operation and root for the other.

Please don't mistake your perspective for moral superiority and assault people for their choice of boat.  I also admire Ian's designs, unbelievable work ethic, and exceptional support.

Your total cost of ownership argument might prove to be true, but my crystal ball says differently.

Hopefully both companies will prove successful.  It is a beautiful little boat.

 

Daedelus had been around a bit before. I have no affiliation with them, so cannot speak for what their arrangements with Farrier are.

Inferior materials? We have seen absolutely jack all, but I can see many small differences, bulkhead differences, window differences. What we haven't seen is any of them being used, weights (official etc), but if you were to knock money out of the cost to manufacture, there are 4 areas to do that from the MHD standpoint. 1-materials, 2-labour, 3-profit 4-royalties. Now, they definitely are knocking out cost in labour, but there is only so much there as this boat would have at least $30k in materials alone, I highly doubt they are forgoing profit, and looking at their website they absolutely are forgoing any royalties, so it would lead me to highly suspect changes to materials.

I also didn't mean inferior labour in regards to the people being worse, but certainly there is a social rank/status people hold boat builders to, and Kiwi's really sit atop that, people will pay more for something which comes from Kiwiland, hence the reason I would expect these to end up with a far lower re-sale value.

Also, I am sure if you died and your family were owed hundreds of thousands a year in Royalties for your IP and people just said "nope, fuck it" and just used it regardless while your family got nothing, you would be rolling around in your grave.

But of all this, the most upset I am with it is the use of Ian's sketches with hand drawings and the fboat website, that's the disrespectful part.

If MHD just released their own "Folding 23' Trimaran" on their own website "multihulls direct" which was being built out of the moulds of the F22 they were working on with Ian, and weren't so disrespectful about it, and were somewhat transparent about the situation, I might actually understand it, they put in the hours to work with him, build moulds, maybe they've earned something?

9 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Agree both companies should compete...Darwin thought highly of competition, survival belongs to the "fittest".  $20K difference is a lot of $. I chose a SeaRail instead of a Pulse because of a $10K price difference.  Agree with previous post that IF wanted to make quality boats more accessible-in fact, this boat's original mantra was "boat in a box for under $20K".  Of course that never happened.  

You chose a completely different boats... This is two almost identical boats requiring almost identical labour, materials etc. Very different ball game.

You bought a boat with $5k less "boat"/material in it which probably takes about $5k less in labour to build. Don't forget the Size-Quality-Price triangle, you cannot have all 3. You can't magically build the same boat, at the same size and the same quality without spending almost the same amount. 

9 hours ago, eastern motors said:

MHD had the support of Ian Farrier, which they presumably paid for.  The F7 came about after he died and someone else revoked their right to build F22s.

 

I don't think the inferior labor or cheaper material claims are true either.  Sure labor is cheaper in that labor market v. NZ, but MHD has lots of experience building F-boats.

I would suspect that they hadn't paid for it, and that it was to be paid for as a percentage royalty per boat they produced.

Inferior - lower in rank, status, or quality. I didn't mean lower quality of labour, that's a moot point, but certainly for resale value, I would see the majority of people are paying more for an F22 than F7 based on the status of building in different places. The F22 will undoubtedly re-sell for a higher value.

As for the cost difference, it has to be made up elsewhere, the labour alone on this boat couldn't make up the price difference. Where else is it coming from? Really just leaves materials. As I said before, gotta see the weights (actual) and see how soft these boats are compared and how they hold up over time as to whether they are built exactly the same or not, and judging by visual differences, there's already quite a few changes.

If MHD just released their own "Folding 23' Trimaran" on their own website "multihulls direct" which was being built out of the moulds of the F22 they were working on with Ian, and weren't so disrespectful about it, and were somewhat transparent about the situation, I might actually understand it, they put in the hours to work with him, build moulds, maybe they've earned something?

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Well, let the marketplace decide.  Wait years for an F22 and pay 20K more or get a very similar boat in months...I know which I'd prefer if I wanted either...which I don't.  There's not really a big market for trimaran campers anymore and at best, it has always been a niche segment of the boating industry.  Remember, they are just toys and like other techie toys, someone always comes out with something new, glitzier, less expensive, faster, roomier...regarding differences in build...F22 hull #1 and current hull #...how many differences are there?  Stuff always changes, usually cheaper, usually heavier (In trimarans)....sometimes for the better.  

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On 8/14/2019 at 1:41 AM, darth reapius said:

So heads up to any one who gets punched if they rock up at a club of someone who feels fondly for Ian with an "F7".

 

Seriously?  Way out of line. 

Whatever rights Ian had transitioned with his passing to the new owners of Farrier.  If those rights were being violated; there would be litigation. There ain't and that answers the question.

Beyond that, much as I loved Ian's designs (less so the more recent) - and there are great folks in the NZ factory - I would not buy a Farrier now.  It ain't the same company, it for sure ain't the same owner, and I really wonder about its future.

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personally sub 100k ish boats shouldn’t have to go through the huge/long build process.  I have seen 8/900k boats get built in months without the backlog and I see 80k boats at dealers all day long.  I know it’s a niche market but if I could touch one in person at a dealer and drive home with it that same day I would have bought new at around the 65-85k range.  As I couldn’t I settled for used and will have to wait a few years to hopefully see some used f-22s maybe f7s pop up.   

I would love to see farrier have some for sale in N.C. but that won’t happen anytime soon.

 

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