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Immediate withdrawal from Syria


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You're either just a dumb cunt, or you're waiting for your nuts to drop and still intellectually bereft of intelligence. Aus has been your most loyal ally, and has backed and supplied arms and le

Dear Christ....... The issue is not in the leaving.  It is the manner in which you do so. People that believed in you are going to get wiped out. For believing in you. And you think tha

He also ran on eliminating the deficit, which just hit an all-time record also ran on 4 (then 5, then 6) % annual GDP growth.  How's that going?  the military's footprint is now 20% larger t

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

OK then, how about our Interpreters, interrogators and civilian base workers in Afghanistan and Iraq?

 

Another very shameful moment.  We seem to have had a lot of them since Bush started his torture and endless wars.  We invade or occupy a country, pay others to do out fighting, run away, then refuse to grant asylum to those that put their lives on the line helping.   If we aren't prepared to stay there no matter the trillions of dollars, if we aren't prepared to sacrifice soldiers by the thousands if needed, then stay home.    If we can afford to leave, we proved we didn't need to get involved.   If we decide to leave, we need to grant blanket asylum to those that feel they are at risk for having helped us.  Its our moral duty.  

Trump loves to reverse prior policy of course, but he also has an actual non interventionist streak I approve of.   Bush and even Obama got us into these stupid messes, but there is no good way to leave.   Either we stay forever, or we get to watch the fall of Saigon all over again.   If anything good comes out of this, it will be harder for the military complex to use foreign kids as mercenaries so we can have all the sales advantages of war without having to bury too many of our own soldiers.   

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Powell doctrine. You break it? You own it.

Since we ignored the part of the doctrine that said have specific and measurable goals to define victory, we're safe in ignoring this part. We've been covering the Kurds since 1991, isn't 28 years getting close to enough?

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12 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

Since we ignored the part of the doctrine that said have specific and measurable goals to define victory, we're safe in ignoring this part. We've been covering the Kurds since 1991, isn't 28 years getting close to enough?

it's in America's(and our allies) interest to avoid hot wars in locations like N Syria. Another million + syrian refugees in europe, which had been avoided by garrisoning 50 SpecOps guys in between a couple armies? That's an easy one.  And yes, that's what Erdogan is threatening.

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17 minutes ago, hermetic said:

so he gets flicked again?  cool bro

I think it was alan something - black, blick, something like that

No, it was Bob Leary, and he outed himself.  I actually have the thread open where he did it.  I have no information that shubrook is Bob Leary but if it is, his mind has really deteriorated over the years.  Bob seemed like an incel before the word was coined, and definitely had some mental issues, so it's definitely possible.   I hope he's in therapy at least. 

 

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Lindsey Graham has been saying powerful words, the best words,  about the need to stand by the Kurds.  Turns out that’s not what he really thinks in a non guarded moment.

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/lindsey-graham-got-prank-called-by-russians-posing-as-a-turkish-official-and-called-the-kurds-a-threat/

He also has thoughts on Ghouliani’s crooked gold trader pal.

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16 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

No, it was Bob Leary, and he outed himself.  I actually have the thread open where he did it.  I have no information that shubrook is Bob Leary but if it is, his mind has really deteriorated over the years.  Bob seemed like an incel before the word was coined, and definitely had some mental issues, so it's definitely possible.   I hope he's in therapy at least. 

 

If you see that post where he snapped a pic of some woman's ass in the bow of his boat, could you bump it?  That was a terrific shape. 

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4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

 

Here is a hypothetical for you.  Suppose the US forces withdrew to the Turkish side of the border and let the Kurds have the border area.  What is our role when the Kurds begin attacking Turkey again?

It's not that hypothetical.

Q Why has the USA had Troops stationed in Europe ever since the end of WW2.?

You are kind of on the right track though.

Trump should have asked for a meeting with NATO before he withdrew US troops from N Syria.

NATO should have people on that border until Turkey and the Kurds can sort something out.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It's not that hypothetical.

Q Why has the USA had Troops stationed in Europe ever since the end of WW2.?

You are kind of on the right track though.

Trump should have asked for a meeting with NATO before he withdrew US troops from N Syria.

NATO should have people on that border until Turkey and the Kurds can sort something out.

 

 

 

Nato does have troops on the Turkish border: they are turkish.

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1 hour ago, learningJ24 said:

Since we ignored the part of the doctrine that said have specific and measurable goals to define victory, we're safe in ignoring this part. We've been covering the Kurds since 1991, isn't 28 years getting close to enough?

Kurds have been fighting everyone since the 9th century.

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2 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Kurds have been fighting everyone since the 9th century.

Cool story.  Christians have been fighting everyone since the 1st century.  Jews since 2000 B.C.  Egyptions since before that.  

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16 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Yep.  Any reason we should butt in?

I personally am very happy to see Trump let our strongest anti-ISIS allies get slaughtered.  Frankly it is a small price to pay to keep US soldiers and vets from voting for him in 2020.  Can't flip the senate without at least some armed forces support.  Amazing that the anus-mouth found a way to piss them off.  

I think his next move should be to sell some exocets to Gaza or Lebanon.  I mean, I'll be sad for the danger to my friends and family in Israel, but at least turning the evangelicals off will avert the larger crisis if he gets re-elected.  It's crazy that you have to screw over the jews now to piss off the bible-humpers.  Used to be you could just date someone out of wedlock and they'd drop you.

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25 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I personally am very happy to see Trump let our strongest anti-ISIS allies get slaughtered.  Frankly it is a small price to pay to keep US soldiers and vets from voting for him in 2020.  Can't flip the senate without at least some armed forces support.  Amazing that the anus-mouth found a way to piss them off.  

...    ...

You might be surprised. The US military tends to split it's vote about the same as the rest of the country, usually with a slightly higher percentage Democrat. Some units vote heavily enough Democratic Party that the Republican election officials here in NC have gotten busted for tossing shipping crates of ballots in the trash.

True patriotism, that

- DSK

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‘The Only Person Capable of Preventing This Disaster Is President Trump’

The commander of the Syrian Democratic Forces speaks out.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-10-10/sdf-commander-only-trump-can-prevent-a-looming-disaster-in-syria

Excerpt -

Amid the unfolding disaster in Syria, Mazloum Abdi offers the slightest sliver of hope: The Kurdish and Arab fighters guarding Islamic State prisoners remain at their posts. For now.

Abdi, the commander of the Syrian Democratic Forces, then offered a warning. “I don’t believe we can still hold the positions for much longer,” he said Thursday in a telephone interview from his headquarters in Qamishli, Syria. “I can’t give you a timeline, but I can tell you it will not be a long time. If we think the Turkish operation will not stop, we cannot fight ISIS anymore.”

 

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Ok fair enough.  Let me rephrase then......  Do you think the Turkish people would be justified in revolting against the Turkish gov't and erdo to attempt to restore their secular democracy that was stolen from them?

Why don't they just vote?

I know it's not that simple, and that you get off on civil wars for some reason, but Turkey is still a, ahem cough, democracy.

Why not use democratic means? 

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Apart from the betrayal of the Kurds, Surely Trump signaling that the USA has lost all interest in the affairs in Syria (Afghanistan and Iraq to follow? ) Surely this plays right into the hands of Russia?

The situation in Syria is confusing to say the least, but my understanding is that it's a proxy war of sorts 

Is Turkey still backing "the rebels" (whoever they may be today) or perhaps he's warming to Russia (and Iran) since their overtures to join the EU have fallen on deaf ears since Erdogan really doesn't suit the EU image of a co operative  leader of a democratic country.

Putins backdoor into the ME  and all that entails?.

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23 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Apart from the betrayal of the Kurds, Surely Trump signaling that the USA has lost all interest in the affairs in Syria (Afghanistan and Iraq to follow? ) Surely this plays right into the hands of Russia?

The situation in Syria is confusing to say the least, but my understanding is that it's a proxy war of sorts 

Is Turkey still backing "the rebels" (whoever they may be today) or perhaps he's warming to Russia (and Iran) since their overtures to join the EU have fallen on deaf ears since Erdogan really doesn't suit the EU image of a co operative  leader of a democratic country.

Putins backdoor into the ME  and all that entails?.

Just so happened that Putin met with Ergodan right before Trump’s call and abrupt pull out.  None of the senior Staff or Military knew that was coming.  You do the math

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9 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Just so happened that Putin met with Ergodan right before Trump’s call and abrupt pull out.  None of the senior Staff or Military new that was coming.  You do the math

Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/10/russia-and-iran-reaction-to-syria-assault-likely-to-most-concern-erdogan-turkey

But the west has been losing traction in Syria over the past two years, and it may be the reaction of Russia and Iran, who have forces on the ground in Syria, that will most concern the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. Their reaction may also reveal more about the long-term future of Syria’s eight-year civil war.

So far both Tehran and Moscow have urged Erdoğan to show restraint, but they will also see opportunities amid the chaos created by Trump’s impulsiveness.

At its simplest, the Russian president, Vladmir Putin, who is seeking to embed Russia’s influence across the Middle East, will see a chance to exploit what is viewed as Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds, the US’s bloodied battering ram in the fight against Isis. The lesson is clear: when the crunch comes, the US will not have your back, Putin will argue. Riyadh, take note.

But Putin also wants to see an end to the Syrian civil war. With the US leaving the scene, he may try to forge his own “deal of the century” between Erdoğan, the Syrian regime and the Kurds.

Ever since the dispatch of Russian troops into Syria to shore up President Bashar al-Assad in 2015, Moscow has been slowly wresting the political process away from the west. It has, for instance, forced UN envoys to come to terms with the Astana process, a proposal for Syria’s future initiated by Putin as a rival to the UN and, in effect, a spoiler while Russia and Assad made steady military progress against the opposition forces.

But the Astana process – involving Iran, Turkey and Russia – has haltingly led to the establishment of a now UN-backed Syrian constitutional committee, an idea first proposed by Putin in January 2018. The aim is to write a new constitution for Syria and prepare for elections.

The UN envoy Geir Pederson formally announced the committee on 23 September, claiming it to be the “first concrete political agreement” between the government and opposition groups, which “implies a clear acceptance of the other as an interlocutor”.

The committee is composed of 150 members, split evenly between Assad’s government, the opposition and Syrian civil society. Hadi al-Bahra will lead for the opposition. The group is due to hold its first session at the UN headquarters in Geneva on 30 October.

This process could yet collapse. Individual Kurdish representatives linked to the opposition are part of this committee, but the political representatives of the Syrian Kurdish fighting forces, the YPG, have been left out, an exclusion that has led to protests outside UN offices in Syria’s northern city of Qamishli.

Assad said he was not prepared to see what he regards as separatists from the Kurdistan Workers party (PKK) – linked to the YPG – involved in the talks since he regarded them as a threat to Syria’s territorial integrity.

But the constitution committee is Putin’s brainchild and he will not wish to see it threatened by fighting in north-east Syria. Instead he will see if the Turkish invasion is a chance to engineer an unlikely reconciliation between the Kurds and the Syrian regime.

Some Syrian Kurds, watching the accumulating signs that Trump would leave them in the lurch, have argued that their future security lies in coming to some form of reconciliation with Damascus based on a federal Syria. The commander of the mainly Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces, Mazlum Kobane, said in the past week: “We are considering a partnership with Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, with the aim of fighting Turkish forces.”

So far Putin has said little as he seeks to square many circles. He phoned Erdoğan to urge him to “consider carefully the situation so as not to damage the overall efforts to resolve the Syrian crisis”.

At the same time, Putin will not wish to offend Erdoğan, or suggest Turkish concerns about Kurdish terrorism inside Turkey, stemming from the Syrian border, are unfounded. He has been trying to woo Turkey away from the Nato orbit and has succeeded in persuading Erdoğan to buy a Russian air defence system.

Putin’s specific proposal, backed by the Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani, is to revive the Adana agreement signed by Syria and Turkey in 1998. It is an idea he has been pushing for three years. In essence, this acknowledges that Turkey has legitimate concerns about the PKK, but the solution is not a Turkish-administered safe zone inside Syria, rather it rests on security guarantees from the Syrian government to control the PKK. Similarly, the way to handle the Syrian refugees inside Turkey is not to forcibly move them into north-east Syria, only to meet a hostile reception, but to end the civil war.

But at the heart of the conundrum is an agreement between the Kurds, Assad and the Turks. If Putin can pull it off, it will indeed be the deal of the century. If he cannot, he may end up in agreement with Trump that the Middle East brings nothing but “sand and death”.

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5QL-SIzs_bigger.jpg Hatem El-Gamasy @HatemGamasy
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Hatem El-Gamasy Retweeted رجب طيب أردوغان

Erdogan calls Turkish army invading northern Syria the "Mohammadan army" in an attempt to caress the religious sentiments of the fundamentalist Muslims in the region!

https://twitter.com/HatemGamasy/status/1182371773708419075

 

So where is the UN and EU on this invasion of another country by Erdogan?

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14 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Which makes me wonder how the fuq did they elect erdo in the first place.  Did the turks lose their collective minds?  I didn't really follow their politics, but my sense was they were always very proud of their secular gov't.  WTF was going on that they put into power a mooslem strongman???

Right-wing nutjobs have been more and more popular all over the world. In hard times people gravitate towards the comfort of religion.

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I personally am very happy to see Trump let our strongest anti-ISIS allies get slaughtered.  Frankly it is a small price to pay to keep US soldiers and vets from voting for him in 2020.  Can't flip the senate without at least some armed forces support.  Amazing that the anus-mouth found a way to piss them off.  

I think his next move should be to sell some exocets to Gaza or Lebanon.  I mean, I'll be sad for the danger to my friends and family in Israel, but at least turning the evangelicals off will avert the larger crisis if he gets re-elected.  It's crazy that you have to screw over the jews now to piss off the bible-humpers.  Used to be you could just date someone out of wedlock and they'd drop you.

Bullshit.  Turkey has been our ally longer than the Kurds.  They are accommodating millions of refugees from Syria.

The Kurds were nomadic tribes moving across several countries all of which wanted some control over events inside their own countries.  As nomads, they had no need or respect for borders.

We've been giving them money, guns, legitimate targets, and areas they can control.  Why wouldn't they be our ally?

Turkey has every reason that armed Kurds would resume their terrorist tactics as soon as they could.

Why aren't there more European NATO members offering to enforce a buffer zone?

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19 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

You don't think the militants/terrorists/ISIL can't be turned to fight a common enemy, ie Turkey? Maybe with Russian money?

 

Religious fanatics are as dangerous to their allies as they are to the enemy. ISIL slaughters prisoners, and has slaughtered Kurds. 

 Bottom line, it would be on a par with Jews fighting alongside Hitler against Russia. 

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11 hours ago, hermetic said:

did erdogan threaten to leave nato?  buy less military systems from us?

There are lots of reasons why the domestic political imperative in Turkey is to resolve the refugee and southern border situation urgently.

I suspect they are tired of america stirring up a hornets nest on the border, and he told Trump he was coming to do it anyway. Trump has no leverage, no credible ability to stop Turkey, no legal right to be there in the first place, and doesn't want to be fighting with another NATO member anyway. He had to choose between a humiliating retreat, or getting soldiers entangled with a Turkish advance.

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15 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I spent a fair amount of time deployed back and forth to Incirlik AB (Adana) in the mid-90s and loved it there.  Loved the area and the people.  Just genuinely nice folk.  I toured around quite a bit as well, venturing out on weekend trips on numerous occasions and spent a lot of time out exploring.  

Which makes me wonder how the fuq did they elect erdo in the first place.  Did the turks lose their collective minds?  I didn't really follow their politics, but my sense was they were always very proud of their secular gov't.  WTF was going on that they put into power a mooslem strongman???

I've got a young turkish kid that crews for me and he is worried about his country.  Seriously worried.  

The city people were doing well but the country folk weren't, and the country folk are religious conservatives. The way Turkey was going (West) in that area didn't sit well with them. Erdo's support is from the Turkish red states. 

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15 hours ago, Hypercapnic Tom said:

From the UN report:

 

So we're paying our allies (not our NATO allies in Turkey, our other allies) to keep tens of thousands of women and kids in deplorable and inhumane conditions?

More from the UN report:

I'm sure some time in a pop up prison will calm them right down and make them less suscepible to extremist influence.

Your solution is? 

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

Religious fanatics are as dangerous to their allies as they are to the enemy. ISIL slaughters prisoners, and has slaughtered Kurds. 

 Bottom line, it would be on a par with Jews fighting alongside Hitler against Russia. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/museums/10682975/The-Jews-who-fought-for-Hitler-We-did-not-help-the-Germans.-We-had-a-common-enemy.html

 

 

 

So not beyond the realms of possibility?

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

Religious fanatics are as dangerous to their allies as they are to the enemy. ISIL slaughters prisoners, and has slaughtered Kurds. 

 Bottom line, it would be on a par with Jews fighting alongside Hitler against Russia. 

Good thing we don't have any religious fanatics establishing foreign policy in this country.  Lord help us if we did.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/mike-pompeos-faith-based-attempt-to-narrowly-redefine-human-rights?utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_071119&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bea0dc22ddf9c72dc8e37bd&cndid=38580712&esrc=&utm_term=TNY_Daily

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7 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

The Christians are really making a comeback. Time to let the lions loose.

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22 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

They do vote.  But my understanding is that erdo basically ignored the rules of, ahem cough, democracy and changed the rules to keep himself in power.  How do you vote that out?  

So you’re saying the Turkish Connie is dead. And they need a revolution. And that’s democratic? Hmmm?

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9 hours ago, Sean said:

Amid the unfolding disaster in Syria, Mazloum Abdi offers the slightest sliver of hope: The Kurdish and Arab fighters guarding Islamic State prisoners remain at their posts. For now.

Ah, hope. Such a wonderful thing.

From the UN report:

Quote

“Up to 70,000 individuals remain interned in deplorable and inhumane conditions at Al Hol camp, the vast majority of whom are women and children under the age of 12,” he said.

 

5 hours ago, Mark K said:

Your solution is? 

Umm... I dunno. How about NOT having our proxies imprison women and children in deplorable conditions? It's bad when Trump does it at our border. It's bad at Syria's border too. The main difference being, we don't have to be at Syria's border.

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7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
8 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Just so happened that Putin met with Ergodan right before Trump’s call and abrupt pull out.  None of the senior Staff or Military new that was coming.  You do the math

Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/10/russia-and-iran-reaction-to-syria-assault-likely-to-most-concern-erdogan-turkey

But the west has been losing traction in Syria over the past two years

We're not great at nation building and that includes settling some other country's civil war.

Abrupt, Gator? This thread is ten months old. Yuge surprise that the "immediate" withdrawal actually came to pass?

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1 hour ago, Hypercapnic Tom said:

 

Umm... I dunno. How about NOT having our proxies imprison women and children in deplorable conditions? It's bad when Trump does it at our border. It's bad at Syria's border too. The main difference being, we don't have to be at Syria's border.

 

We've lost the recognition of what war really means and what wining and losing actually looks like.  To much Hollywood.  These 4000 or so prisoners and 70K+ 'refugees' - they would be held for.. how long?  Until they can get returned to their countries of origin which include places that don't really exist or don't really want them back?  Reconciliation and forgiveness is always ugly.  These are the consequences of politics by force and always have been. 

The hard truth is repatriation is unpopular.  A country willing to accept them has to step up, probably greased by the buckets of 'humanitarian assistance' dollars which are raised by taxes on the victors, and then reintegrate these HUMANS into society.  Some of these soldiers/refugees are going to continue to do harm and be poster boys for villainy.  Some of them will go on to become upstanding citizens.  But that's the LOGICAL end.

The EMOTIONAL counter argument is to leave them in status quo - a limbo of inadequate everything - and let them burn out meaningless lives and then wonder why some of those kids turn out to not really get along so well.  That's what MOST people want (by action if not by expression) - out of sight, out of mind, no hard choices.

This is the OTHER side of globalization.  There are no more frontiers.  We actually have to live with the shit we create, both humanitarian and physical.  We can't just put these people in empty land and hope for the best.  There ISN'T any empty land anymore.

Erdogan has been talking about this for years.  He's been pushing into Northern Syria for financial reasons since he took office and one of the reasons he's president is because  MANY PEOPLE IN TURKEY ALSO HATE THE KURDS.  For many Turks, the idea of creating a Kurdish 'homeland' on the Turkish Border would be no different than carving out a ISIS state between Mexico and the US.  That was ALWAYS going to be a hard lift and there's no way Erdogan was going to do it without some counter narrative.  The west didn't offer one so he did what HIS PEOPLE elected him to do and is carving out his own frontier.  

That the pentagon was 'caught by surprise' is political CYA.  The only part that was 'surprising' was that Trump made a decision they didn't like.  That's one of the downsides of a 'civilian' leadership over the military.  Decisions get made for political and not military reasons.  But they've been watching Erodgan build up his forces, who dragged it out to GIVE time to the west to come up with a better answer.  Winter is coming.  The clock was ticking.  He'd likely have to way another year.  No answer was coming so HE chose.

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4 hours ago, Hypercapnic Tom said:
12 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
12 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Just so happened that Putin met with Ergodan right before Trump’s call and abrupt pull out.  None of the senior Staff or Military new that was coming.  You do the math

 

We're not great at nation building and that includes settling some other country's civil war.

Abrupt, Gator? This thread is ten months old. Yuge surprise that the "immediate" withdrawal actually came to pass?

 

Ten months ago Trump mentioned pulling out of Syria so why are people surprised?

If gators dad had an abrupt pull out creating another stain on the carpet we could have been saved from gators idiocy.

Erdogan has been whacking the Kurds for quite a while with no end in sight, perhaps fucking up the Turkeys economy with sanctions might do more to resolve the Kurds problems. Where have the UN been on this are they too busy with promoting the climate change religion?

Quote

Erdogan vows to press Syria offensive to key Kurdish-held towns

Published: 00:32 AEDT, 11 March 2018 | Updated: 00:36 AEDT, 11 March 2018

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday vowed to expand Turkey's offensive in Syria against Kurdish militia to key border towns controlled by the group right up to the Iraqi frontier.

Turkey launched its operation seeking to oust Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG) militia from the Afrin region of northern Syria on January 20 and Erdogan said Thursday its forces could now enter Afrin town at "any moment".

But Ankara has always threatened to expand the operation to the east to oust the YPG from the swathe of territory it controls right up to Iraq.

Speaking to supporters in the city of Mersin, Erdogan said the Turkish army and allied Syrian rebels wanted to oust the YPG from all the towns they control close to the Turkish border.

"Once we have purged the terrorists (from Afrin) we will then cleanse them from Manbij, Ayn al-Arab, Tel-Abyad, Ras al-Ayn and Qamishli," he said in televised comments.

Manbij, the next main YPG-held town east of Afrin, is a particular flashpoint as it has an American military presence there.

Ayn al-Arab, better known by its Kurdish name Kobane, has huge symbolic importance as it was the epicentre of a struggle with Islamic State (IS) jihadists which was eventually won by the Kurds.

Qamishli is seen as the main town of the YPG-controlled region.

Turkey regards the YPG as a terror group and a branch of militants in Turkey who have waged an insurgency for decades.

The United States however has worked closely with the YPG in the fight against IS and the campaign has raised tensions with Turkey's NATO ally Washington.

Erdogan questioned why NATO had not come to Turkey's aid in its Syria operation when Ankara had backed critical alliance campaigns worldwide.

"Hey NATO where are you?" Erdogan asked. "We came in response to the calls on Afghanistan, Somalia and the Balkans, and now I am making the call, let's go to Syria. Why don't you come?"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-5485175/Erdogan-vows-press-Syria-offensive-key-Kurdish-held-towns.html

 

Erdogan wanted NATO to help him invade Syria to kill Kurds ,NATO should tell Erdogan to fuck off.

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On 10/9/2019 at 9:06 PM, lasal said:
On 10/9/2019 at 8:54 PM, Shortforbob said:

Here is trump being empathetic .

From his own Twitter feed. talking at length about his experience with families of dead USA soldiers.

Careful, you may need a barf bag.

 

Trump voters, what do you think? I'm at a loss. This guy really is the bottom of the barrel in every way.

Every time that man approaches a microphone, anyone with a shred of decency must cringe.

"What is he going to say and how will he say it?"

Verbal diarrhea.

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:
17 hours ago, hermetic said:

so he gets flicked again?  cool bro

I think it was alan something - black, blick, something like that

No, it was Bob, and he outed himself.  I actually have the thread open where he did it.  I have no information that shubrook is Bob Leary but if it is, his mind has really deteriorated over the years.  Bob seemed like an incel before the word was coined, and definitely had some mental issues, so it's definitely possible.   I hope he's in therapy at least. 

why is it important to bring up now - except to out and flick a poster?

I was going to go with dan something - moyer, mayer, something like that, but thought that might bring up painful memories

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25 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Every time that man approaches a microphone, anyone with a shred of decency must cringe.

"What is he going to say and how will he say it?"

Verbal diarrhea.

Right now?  I just want to get in line to kick his ass for the harm he's doing in Syria.  Sorry for spouting so many NPR quotes, but, that's what I listen to on the commute in - but, I found myself in agreement with this perspective: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769209243/trumps-strategy-in-syria-is-a-strategic-blunder-retired-general-says

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

How long before Turkey produces a bombshell report on Biden family corruption in Turkey?

They probably have a list of crimes a mile long: Biden and Obama started a war in the country next door.

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US troops have come under fire from Turkish positions as air and artillery strikes on Kurdish militia continued in an offensive that has drawn warnings of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Key points:

  • Trump administration warns of "serious consequences" for offensive
  • Turkey vows to continue until all Kurdish militia forces are "neutralised"
  • Islamic State militants have escaped prison due to Turkish shelling

 

The Pentagon said its troops had come under artillery fire near Kobani. None of the Americans were hurt, according to an earlier report attributed to a US official and a Syria war monitor.

It was the first time a coalition base was in the line of fire since the offensive began, however Turkey said the US was not targeted.

The Turkish Defence Ministry said its forces were returning fire after being targeted by Kurdish fighters and ended the strike after communicating with the US.

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So someone please explain. If Erdogan is clearing an 18km buffer zone, and the US troops have been pulled out of that zone, why have they been caught inbetween Turkey and their Kurdish Target..Mr Trump?

View image on Twitter

https://www.airforcetimes.com/flashpoints/2019/10/11/no-us-forces-harmed-by-explosion-in-syria-says-official/

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US troops in Syria come under fire from Turkish positions, Pentagon says

Quote

 

US troops deployed near the city of Kobani in northern Syria came under artillery fire from Turkish positions, the Pentagon said on Friday evening.

The explosion occurred near a military outpost in northern Syria and in an area known by the Turks to have US forces present, Navy Capt Brook DeWalt said in a statement.

All US troops are accounted for, but the incident highlights the risks to US troops as Turkey wages an offensive in the region.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/11/turkey-syria-invasion-kurds-destabilize-mark-esper

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23 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

  But wait, there's more!

  The Turks have been supporting the rebels in Syria, the rebels are dominated by Jihadis of the AQ ilk. 

 If the ISIL boys fight with anybody...

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23 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Personally, I'd be fine with Russia taking over playing referee in the ME.  Let them deal with the asspain of keeping the children from fighting each other for a change.  However, given their experience in Afghanistan - I doubt they are all that interested.  

Their game may be just to get the US out, but I doubt it's so they can move in. Russia may have elite military expertise in the area of infantry and "deep war", but they also have an economy about the size of Canada's. They may have the ability to deploy with outstanding economy of force...but it's still expensive.

 It's unlikely they are interested in being the world's police, and they sure as shit aren't short of oil. 

 What may be happening is Erdo has convinced the Russians that they must get all those Syrian war refugees camping in Turkey back into Syria. and the point where they attacked is a key area where everybody either fled from ISIL and the Kurds have been taking possession of the towns and making it damn clear they aren't welcoming the former inhabitants back. 

 I have a hunch pitching Trump with the need to get illegal immigrants back across a border would work, anyway.  

 

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14 hours ago, hermetic said:

why is it important to bring up now - except to out and flick a poster?

I was going to go with dan something - moyer, mayer, something like that, but thought that might bring up painful memories

Personal attacks and name calling are very, very important.

It's the only way to feel like you are 'winning'.

 

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20 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Their game may be just to get the US out, but I doubt it's so they can move in. Russia may have elite military expertise in the area of infantry and "deep war", but they also have an economy about the size of Canada's. They may have the ability to deploy with outstanding economy of force...but it's still expensive.

 It's unlikely they are interested in being the world's police, and they sure as shit aren't short of oil. 

 What may be happening is Erdo has convinced the Russians that they must get all those Syrian war refugees camping in Turkey back into Syria. and the point where they attacked is a key area where everybody either fled from ISIL and the Kurds have been taking possession of the towns and making it damn clear they aren't welcoming the former inhabitants back. 

 I have a hunch pitching Trump with the need to get illegal immigrants back across a border would work, anyway.  

 

After WW II they were called DP's (displaced persons).  One of the primary goals of the Marshall plan was to get people back to their homes and rebuild the cities.

I don't see that happening anywhere in the MENA.  I don't even see it being possible.

Turkey already has over 3 million refugees from Syria.

https://refugeesolidaritynetwork.org/about-refugees-in-turkey/

 

 

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15 hours ago, hermetic said:

 

I was going to go with dan something - moyer, mayer, something like that, but thought that might bring up painful memories

Painful?  Perish the thought.  If it weren't for that big guy I'd probably still be schlepping my ass halfway round the world for about what a cop makes.  Plus thanks to DM I aced the defamation question on the michigan bar

 

 

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hands on experience,  is always the best teacher.

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9 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

So someone please explain. If Erdogan is clearing an 18km buffer zone, and the US troops have been pulled out of that zone, why have they been caught inbetween Turkey and their Kurdish Target..Mr Trump?

Because the immediate withdrawal of ten months ago didn't happen, and still hasn't.

What do I win?

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18 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And yet another swing and a miss.....  Or more accurately just took a strike over the plate while looking.  

Again, I'll ask you a direct question:  What should the turkish people do if they feel their democracy has been subverted or stolen and voting no longer has any effect?

Use their second amendment rights to overthrow the govt and burn the bitch down?

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13 hours ago, Saorsa said:

After WW II they were called DP's (displaced persons).  One of the primary goals of the Marshall plan was to get people back to their homes and rebuild the cities.

I don't see that happening anywhere in the MENA.  I don't even see it being possible.

Turkey already has over 3 million refugees from Syria.

https://refugeesolidaritynetwork.org/about-refugees-in-turkey/

 

 

For the most part that's just too damn bad. The Turks continue to support the rebs in Idib. The Turks thereby wish this (that) war to continue. It's different situation to the east where things are pretty much over and the Kurds are attempting to make that area into a Kurdish state. I don't recall anything similar in WW2. Everybody pretty much wanted people to go back home. I wouldn't cite the Marshall plan in anything happening in northern Syria...it's a completely different kettle of fish. 

That said we didn't have to allow this to happen the way it's happening. The Kurds could have been negotiated with on this point. Everywhere the Kurds live now is shared by a bunch of different tribes and sects. They are simply NOT xenophobic. They are not even a solid block within themselves.  

 

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Turkey should be tossed out of NATO,  simple.

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All over the arc of the Western Med, from Greece to Egypt, the Turks are disliked - 

in large part because they are just as ethnocentric as us USAeans 

the Turks were just as hostile to the Armenians as the Kurds 

ethnic nationalism is dangerous anywhere 

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

For the most part that's just too damn bad. The Turks continue to support the rebs in Idib. The Turks thereby wish this (that) war to continue. It's different situation to the east where things are pretty much over and the Kurds are attempting to make that area into a Kurdish state. I don't recall anything similar in WW2. Everybody pretty much wanted people to go back home. I wouldn't cite the Marshall plan in anything happening in northern Syria...it's a completely different kettle of fish. 

That said we didn't have to allow this to happen the way it's happening. The Kurds could have been negotiated with on this point. Everywhere the Kurds live now is shared by a bunch of different tribes and sects. They are simply NOT xenophobic. They are not even a solid block within themselves.  

 

Exactly.  The Kurds were nomads.  They didn't really have much use for government or borders.  That's why there never was a Kurdistan as a nation.  That cry began in the 1970s with the PKK.  Sponsored by our dear friends the Russians.  Turkey was the only place where they did not control the buffer countries between themselves and Europe.

Trump announced that we would withdraw troops last December 2018.  Everybody had time to plan and prepare.

 

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29 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Exactly.  The Kurds were nomads.  They didn't really have much use for government or borders.  That's why there never was a Kurdistan as a nation.  That cry began in the 1970s with the PKK.  Sponsored by our dear friends the Russians.  Turkey was the only place where they did not control the buffer countries between themselves and Europe.

Trump announced that we would withdraw troops last December 2018.  Everybody had time to plan and prepare.

 

So were the Al-Sauds. As were the Jews. 

 All respect, but that aspect is a "so what?".  Most peoples at some time or another have nomads in their ancestry. Most of the Kurds have been farmers for quite some time. They simply haven't lucked out in the finding of a homeland yet. They would have one now if the Brits and the French, when they drew the map, had reason to grant them one.    

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45 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Exactly.  The Kurds were nomads.  They didn't really have much use for government or borders.  That's why there never was a Kurdistan as a nation.  That cry began in the 1970s with the PKK.  Sponsored by our dear friends the Russians.  Turkey was the only place where they did not control the buffer countries between themselves and Europe.

Trump announced that we would withdraw troops last December 2018.  Everybody had time to plan and prepare.

 

They had time? You mean the time while our diplomats were persuading them to dismantle their defenses to broker a peace deal?

You just keep telling that lie if it makes you feel good about this decision.

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For what it’s worth, Kurds did fight in WW2 (WW1 as well), as members of the British Iraq Levies. I don’t think they participated in the Normandy invasion though, so there’s that.

The Levies have a long history of alliance with Western powers .

http://assyrianlevies.info/history.html

1940-1941- The Iraqi forces joined the Axis powers. The battle for Habbaniya took place. the force was increased by another 11,000 recruits, mostly Assyrian, but also Kurd and Yezidi.

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And yet another swing and a miss.....  Or more accurately just took a strike over the plate while looking.  

Again, I'll ask you a direct question:  What should the turkish people do if they feel their democracy has been subverted or stolen and voting no longer has any effect?

Then their constitution is dead, and they have to choose whether to rebel in civil war or live under a Dick Tater. Either way, Atmal’s vision is dead and they will have a new constitution when it’s all done. I bet you STILL can’t understand that the need for a revolution (or other extra constitutional measures) by definition mean the constitution is dead.

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3 hours ago, Mark K said:

So were the Al-Sauds. As were the Jews. 

 All respect, but that aspect is a "so what?".  Most peoples at some time or another have nomads in their ancestry. Most of the Kurds have been farmers for quite some time. They simply haven't lucked out in the finding of a homeland yet. They would have one now if the Brits and the French, when they drew the map, had reason to grant them one.    

The Sauds and the Jews actually managed to establish actual governments when they settled down.  The Kurds, not so much.  The Armenians shared a lot of the save area and were the ones who developed the cities and local governments.

Kurds were, as noted, a lot more internally fragmented.  They had plenty of Pattons and MacArthurs but not so much a Washington or Eisenhower.

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

For what it’s worth, Kurds did fight in WW2 (WW1 as well), as members of the British Iraq Levies. I don’t think they participated in the Normandy invasion though, so there’s that.

The Levies have a long history of alliance with Western powers .

http://assyrianlevies.info/history.html

1940-1941- The Iraqi forces joined the Axis powers. The battle for Habbaniya took place. the force was increased by another 11,000 recruits, mostly Assyrian, but also Kurd and Yezidi.

3 hours ago, Mark K said:

So were the Al-Sauds. As were the Jews. 

 All respect, but that aspect is a "so what?".  Most peoples at some time or another have nomads in their ancestry. Most of the Kurds have been farmers for quite some time. They simply haven't lucked out in the finding of a homeland yet. They would have one now if the Brits and the French, when they drew the map, had reason to grant them one.    

The Center for American Progress has a good paper on the issue.  https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/reports/2019/08/12/473508/state-turkish-kurdish-conflict/

From the cite

Why the peace process failed

When revisiting the breakdown of this process, a few points emerge. First, Erdoğan did go further than any previous Turkish leader in his attempts to reach a peaceful resolution of the Kurdish question. He oversaw improved atmospherics, rhetoric, and economic conditions in the Southeast, particularly by helping open up trade with northern Iraq. He allowed the expansion of Kurdish language rights and, for a time, permitted Kurdish-run municipalities to run their affairs with minimal central government interference—though some would note that these should be basic legal rights for all citizens of Turkey. To preserve the fragile ceasefire, Erdoğan consistently rejected the Turkish military’s repeated requests to conduct anti-PKK military operations.18 But the lack of trust between the parties meant that the most crucial step for peace—the withdrawal and/or disarmament of PKK fighters—was never taken.19

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Exactly.  The Kurds were nomads.  They didn't really have much use for government or borders.  That's why there never was a Kurdistan as a nation.  That cry began in the 1970s with the PKK.  Sponsored by our dear friends the Russians.  Turkey was the only place where they did not control the buffer countries between themselves and Europe.

Trump announced that we would withdraw troops last December 2018.  Everybody had time to plan and prepare.

 

Are you seriously trying to run the Terra Nullius arguement?

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13 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

The Sauds and the Jews actually managed to establish actual governments when they settled down.  The Kurds, not so much.  The Armenians shared a lot of the save area and were the ones who developed the cities and local governments.

Kurds were, as noted, a lot more internally fragmented.  They had plenty of Pattons and MacArthurs but not so much a Washington or Eisenhower.

So those who have not established a state at this point in time thereby are undeserved of a state ever?  

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

So those who have not established a state at this point in time thereby are undeserved of a state ever?  

So, you want to replace the Europeans and UN as the Demarcer of borders?

If the Kurds can take it and hold it more power to them.  They haven't managed it since the 9th century but, WTF, go for it.

It's certainly not our job to hand it to them.

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4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

So, you want to replace the Europeans and UN as the Demarcer of borders?

Ifk the Kurds can take it and hold it more power to them.  They haven't managed it since the 9th century but, WTF, go for it.

It's certainly not our job to hand it to them.

Why should a Kurdish state be any more difficult than an Israeli state? A Timor Leste state? Or any of the others that have been created recently?

 

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/newest-countries/

 

I'm sure a Kurdish state will be a lot cheaper for the US than an Israeli state.

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4 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Why should a Kurdish state be any more difficult than an Israeli state? A Timor Leste state? Or any of the others that have been created recently?

 

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/newest-countries/

 

I'm sure a Kurdish state will be a lot cheaper for the US than an Israeli state.

If the Kurds can take it and hold it more power to them.  They haven't managed it since the 9th century but, WTF, go for it.

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37 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

If Obummer was the original founder of ISIS for pulling troops out of Iraq, doesn’t that make the Pride of the GOP the founder of the new ISIS that has escaped their jails in N. Syria?

Nothing to do with his irrational faith in Russia as a good partner in Syria (or anywhere else for that matter).

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18 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

All over the arc of the Western Med, from Greece to Egypt, the Turks are disliked - 

in large part because they are just as ethnocentric as us USAeans 

the Turks were just as hostile to the Armenians as the Kurds 

ethnic nationalism is dangerous anywhere 

Sorry, I should have written "Eastern Med" above   

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