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2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI


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3 hours ago, frant said:

I’m only a lightweight  at this game though

You do at least understand the rules. 

A tip for the newbies. You can't actually win. But you score by getting someone else to rise to your bait. You don't ever score by rising to someone else's bait. Right now I image LB sitting in his boat wondering if he has snagged a cray pot or worse, then realising he is dead in the water because his trawling net is utterly filled.*

Back to the popcorn.

*I can't remember when trawling on the Interwebs changed its spelling to trolling, but it was a very long time ago. An image of trolls sitting under bridges waiting for naive newcomers.

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In loving memory of Clark and Daw We welcome this evening Mr Richard the skipper of the winning power boat. Hello Brian. Mr Richard, may we call you Dick? Sure Brian, most

If Matt Allen as President of AS has any balls he should put Harburg/Bradford and Oatley/Richards in a room and read them the riot act. Harburg for not protesting but having a cry on national TV and O

Ok I am now caught up on this thread. Yes I went live - first actually - with the news direct from Shipwright Arms where WOXI were having lunch in one room, and BJ in the other. Was the best place to

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40 minutes ago, frant said:

I think I may have “ inadvertently “ pressed the silent mode switch at 15.43 in above scenario.

Mate this is not sounding like a controlled experiment or you are on your tenth beer. Tip: Go buy some cable ties to mechanically support that wiring birds nest :-)

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1 hour ago, frant said:

Or the Australian team has just rec’d a shipment of 80 grit emery cloth.

I think they have learned their lesson about utilising marginal ball flight changing techniques.

1.jpg

In Sailing similar mechanical means are now appearing for securing positional advantage on the pitch. The only difference is they belt the splitter with the log. 

images (17).jpeg

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2 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

You do at least understand the rules. 

A tip for the newbies. You can't actually win. But you score by getting someone else to rise to your bait. You don't ever score by rising to someone else's bait. Right now I image LB sitting in his boat wondering if he has snagged a cray pot or worse, then realising he is dead in the water because his trawling net is utterly filled.*

Back to the popcorn.

*I can't remember when trawling on the Interwebs changed its spelling to trolling, but it was a very long time ago. An image of trolls sitting under bridges waiting for naive newcomers.

Good advise, but sadly stops a lot of new people entering the fray. Whether they have something interesting to add or otherwise.

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14 minutes ago, frant said:

Here a serious technical  question for Francis and Jack. The white coax cable with gold plated plug sitting on top of the AIS transponder is the other end of a digital VHF whip antennae mounted on the stern rail. Was previously used as the AIS antennae before the installation of an AIS splitter to masthead antennae. Should I leave the end where it is so that I can readily replace the connection to the AIS transponder in the event that the splitter is fried and becomes Rx only for AIS. Or should I pull the connector and cable back into the compartment above leaving it hanging next to the splitter so that I can swap out the masthead antennae in the event that the rig comes down and the masthead whip can’t get a signal out from under water? 

I am starting to think that it is more likely that a chopper will crash into and take my rig out rather than fry the splitter.

Don't discard your arse as an option, most people miss that.

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3 hours ago, frant said:

It’s not actually as bad as it looks.  The runs from individual peices of equipment are actually quite neat. It’s mainly the proprietary cables with factory termination that are looped and cable clipped together to reduce the length. That is all “stored” as seen. It does allow the stuff, ie AIS transceiver, AIS silent mode switch, Ockham “ brain” ( programmed in basic with a micro card memory), Fleetbroadband terminal and SSC. All hooked together with USB cables. At least can pull the stuff out to work on while still connected.

Actually the Ockham and AIS transceiver have RS232 outputs which are fitted with a USB converter in there as well. 

image.png.da0a0358c07b5520f14205cf709c1520.png

Nothing wrong there!

Look, Its even got a cable tie.

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44 minutes ago, frant said:

I am starting to think that it is more likely that a chopper will crash into and take my rig out rather than fry the splitter.

Exactly, you have answered your own question. 

In the event the alien black helos start frying splitters you will have plenty of time to think about rethreading cables. If the stick comes down, you probably don't want any more pain, but you do want both VHF and AIS.

These sort of thoughts are why I like to see really neat wiring in any installation. You want everything to be neat, know exactly where every connection goes, and not have a rats nest to deal with if you have to re-cable or connect something in a hurry - and in the dark.

 

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31 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

 These sort of thoughts are why I like to see really neat wiring in any installation.  You want everything to be neat, know exactly where every connection goes, and not have a rats nest to deal with if you have to re-cable or connect something in a hurry - and in the dark.

Putting aside mechanical damage to cores of any cable via simply a vessels motion,  correct isolation of power and easily corruptable data cabling via RFI interference etc, also think about if you are sinking in daylight or dark.

Also think about those vessels you are thinking of buying or selling (majority of buyers go on looks having no idea how it all works) comparing electronic rats nests to those without when percieved $ values are determined.

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1 hour ago, paps49 said:

Heppy Amnesia day everybody.

To assist any Australian burdened with celebrating Australia Day with say a 1/16 aboriginal sister-in-law or neighbour banging on how you and Captain Cook invaded their country.

The last half of this my post from last year in the Captain Cook thread down the hallway referencing Dampier might help you shut the fuckers up until next year.

 

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6 hours ago, paps49 said:

Good advise, but sadly stops a lot of new people entering the fray. Whether they have something interesting to add or otherwise.

Paps that is a two edged sword/sieve.

Firstly any fuckwits are going to be circumspect about entering the fray beyond the opening pages where they thought AIS stood for the Australian Institute of Sport and they saw WOXI on the Tracker all the time do what is the fuss?

By way of example here is a comment from WOXI's own FaceFuck page when they heard the RC had protested thinking the RC was the Royal Club (actually they were closer than they knew there) courtesy of a Black Jack panty split taking a complaint off the water. With my emphasis.

"Everyone with internet access had exact location of all boats. Black Jack should be ashamed of themselves. It was a perfectly clean race from a spectator point. It makes me sick that the world is again seeing such disgraceful unAustralian  sportsmanship."

Paps does this thread honestly beyond the opening pages need imbiciles like this? If so it would be the longest thread in SA history. So the sieve works. It works because people get very quickly educated as posters or viewers.

Remember these stats from my post of yesterday celebrating a thread that has lasted 4 weeks and ordinarily should be as dead as a fuckin doornail by now.

On 1/25/2019 at 6:38 PM, jack_sparrow said:

And now it is here, the thing those chided as the online chatterati have been waiting for, week four of this threads stats. 

Total Posts: 3,074  (3,672)

Average Posts per Week: 769  (77)

Average Posts per Day: 110   (11)

Total Thread Views: 65,250  (156,404)

Average Thread Views per Week: 16,313  (3,258)

Average Thread Views per Day: 2,330  (465)

Note S2H 2018 Race thread in (   ).

Yet Total Posts of 3,074 in just four weeks approaching the number of posts for the entire S2H 2018 Race thread of 3,672 which has been going for 11 months? Total Thread Views here of 65,250 in 4 weeks or Average Thread Views per Week of 16,313, compared to 3,258 for that main race thread. That indicates there is a fuckin truckload of sailing individuals around the globe interested enough to dial in.

Now for anyone who wants to chime in say this thread is only being kept alive now by a few stalwets and that is the thrust of Paps post which I here do reply. My answer is this. I could not agree with you more.

However I offer up this observation. Putting aside those few stalwets that doesn't explain Total Posts of 3,074, Average Posts per Week of 769 and Average Posts per Day of 110 over four weeks who are those posters? Sure there has been thread drift and comments on weird memes. Which reminds me I have yet to reply to @frant AIS technical cabling request.

The bottom line is of those 3,074 posts not one person from memory has come out with either a substantiated opinion that this thread is a "storm in a teacup" (borrowing Richo's own words in that damming Channel 2 Interview) or even putting up challenging arguments to those put up here which are many and either rational or not. Most are along the lines of something is 'Rotten in the State of Denmark". Sure memes about train crashes and chickens, move on its over etc, but not one single counter argument. That is called shear weight of opinion not in WOXI's favour. That beggers belief in the partesan world of sport. I beg to be corrected.

That draws me back to the 65k thread views here. Sure there are many looking for a sailing car crash and don't look beyond that. The interesting thing is most now regard the crash having happened, sailing and WOXI's reputation is the only victim and bled out on the roadway, there is more than one driver involved, but there hasn't been an investigation? They are still looking for unanswered questions beyond Microwave Hansel & Gretal stories. Some maybe wondering if they ever see a live camera on board again? Maybe outside broadcasters world wide think the same?

The upside of all that is education, to the extent the moron who posted that FaceFuck comment above and if now a viewer here, now arguably knows more about AIS on the race course than collectively the RC who after 12 hours could not find any evidence to prosecute a valid Protest beyond just Black Jack's squeal. I'm prepared to go one step further and say that because of this pissant thread not one RC world wide will want to see this catastrofuck attached to AIS attach itself to their own race.

If you want to draw a really long bow now. Does anyone honestly think Team WOXI will repeat again next year and third year in a row, this total failure in both PR crisis management and their adherence to the RRS as percieved by others for the next edition of the S2H? If they god forbid haven't learnt by now they won't have to worry about the delivery of WOXI home after the 75th. There is some probability some nutter will set fire to it in Hobart, maybe a disillusioned sport/cricket fan with a memory for sandpaper.

Sorry Paps about the long winded reply, but I disagree. This thread is not lacking by way of contribution.

PS. If anyone thinks this is a WOXI hater piece think again. I have been happy to stand beside Mark Richards since Day 1 and still do and tell anyone acussing Team WOXI of cheating to fuck off. Some of you wankers take note of that. That said my views of why WOXI got themselves into this predicament and issues about others involved is totally separate. Every post in that context I'm standing behind and not beside Mark, but with the people with the microphones or anyone else thinking enough is enough.

Fuck you pricks, you make me write.

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8 hours ago, frant said:

Here a serious technical  question for Francis and Jack. The white coax cable with gold plated plug sitting on top of the AIS transponder is the other end of a digital VHF whip antennae mounted on the stern rail. Was previously used as the AIS antennae before the installation of an AIS splitter to masthead antennae. Should I leave the end where it is so that I can readily replace the connection to the AIS transponder in the event that the splitter is fried and becomes Rx only for AIS. Or should I pull the connector and cable back into the compartment above leaving it hanging next to the splitter so that I can swap out the masthead antennae in the event that the rig comes down and the masthead whip can’t get a signal out from under water? 

I am starting to think that it is more likely that a chopper will crash into and take my rig out rather than fry the splitter.

I was really hoping Francis would answer not me, my fingers and brain are worn out. However I mistakenly made a reference in all that typing upthread which leaves me having to do so.

4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sure there has been thread drift and comments on weird memes. Which reminds me I have yet to reply to @frant AIS technical cabling request.

If I have read correctly first you have a AIS/VHF sharing a masthead antenna via a Splitter. Doesn't get more normal than that where Offshore Regs come into play with VHF bring masthead mandatory and no two VHF antennas can be in close proximity without interference. 

Second you have a old pushpit mounted VHF antenna still wired but wired short of the new Splitter? You would like to include that antenna for redundancy in case the rig with masthead antenna decides to go horizontal.

If I have this slightly wrong it won't matter. From what I say here you can work it out in a jiffy. 

My view in two parts, one electronic best practise which arguably some might regard as OCD, the other with a Rules reference.

1. Electronic Best Practise.

All VHF/AIS systems utilise coaxial cable comprising foam dielectrics and moisture can quickly propagate along the foam dielectric resulting in signal loss. The cause of moisture intrusion into the cable is the centre pin construction of coaxial cable connectors. They are the principle source of most signal loss on sailboats. The culprits in order of probability start at the exposed masthead antenna connection, mast base connection (often wet despite below deck) facilitating mast removal and last the equipment/switch connections.

Frant with your ideas in mind of having a free floating cable connected to your spare VHF antenna ready to go for redundancy purposes. With the above in mind I suggest smearing the connector with some Dielectric Grease and then shrink tubing it.

2. Rules

With regard to your desire to have a redundancy VHF/AIS antenna. There are no sailing rules requiring this. Redundancy is currently based on lower powered VHF hand units only, not AIS.

For reference only. Post the loss of a person having a automatic enabled AIS PLB in the last VOR but the vessel having a AIS/VHF recieve issue that may or may not have been related to the above cable loss issues. A spare VHF/AIS enabled antenna was supplied by the VOR RO at the next race stopover.

Frant in terms of your redundancy plans say  as a consequence of the rig going horizontal you simply change over the antenna connection at the splitter using your spare pushpit antenna fly lead.

However you say that lead/connector is short of your Splitter. One option instead of splicing cable/cable connectors to reach the Splitter is to introduce a two way switch upstream of the Splitter to simply switch between both Antennas.

I hope this helps. If not it will alone keep this thread alive.

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I spoke to a well known veteran navigator who sailed this race.

He said on the first night quite a few AIS transmitters went off but the following day he saw them again. He is certain it was was deliberate.

It seems to me if you wanted an appearance of compliance whilst cheating you would turn AIS off for a gybe or tack and switch it back on a little later.

In defence of WOXI, I can't imagine a scenario where you simply turned it off before the start and then turned it back on as soon as you hit the dock in Hobart. It's far too obvious and too stupid to do.

 

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45 minutes ago, hoppy said:

So get him to name and shame...

Then we can discuss each boat extensively and make this thread go on and on.

 

Or as I alluded to last year, BJ commented on WOIX's AIS without protesting because they believed it is a dumb ass rule that they do not want. The CYCA was forced into a corner and had to protest (to keep Random like idiots happy) quite possibly knowing it would be thrown out.

I would not be surprised if prior to the race that the owners/reps of the maxis and other top teams had been in discussions with the CYCA expressing their disagreement about the rule. This whole WOIX issue is a continuation of it. 

I would not be surprised if Richo was a loud voice in the CYCA regarding this rule and that it was a deliberate decision by him to turn it off. 

I believe that dumb rules and laws should and must be challenged, especially by people in a position who can influence a change.

 

A blanket mandatory AIS transmission rule will be dropped from the next race.

Hoppy you just accused MR of deliberately cheating yes?

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1 hour ago, Trickypig said:

I spoke to a well known veteran navigator who sailed this race.

He said on the first night quite a few AIS transmitters went off but the following day he saw them again.

Come on Tricky! everyone knows AIS is VHF therefore line of sight.

You can't see far in the dark. Just the same for AIS. It can be see a long way in the daytime but not so good at night!

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4 minutes ago, hoppy said:

no, protesting against stupidity

Siri : whats the definition of cheating in a boat race?

 

"I would not be surprised if Richo was a loud voice in the CYCA regarding this rule and that it was a deliberate decision by him to turn it off". 

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45 minutes ago, staysail said:

Come on Tricky! everyone knows AIS is VHF therefore line of sight.

You can't see far in the dark. Just the same for AIS. It can be see a long way in the daytime but not so good at night!

He was talking about immediate competition who are still close by on the first night

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

With the above in mind I suggest smearing the connector with some Dielectric Grease and then shrink tubing it.

Yeah. The problems with corrosion in connectors and moisture wicking up dielectrics cannot be overstated. Seawater makes it all the more horrendous. There are some really evil corrosion modes in plated copper wire, and you can end up with nothing but red dust. As Jack says, protecting the loose end is good practice, but also keep an eye on the connections at the antenna end. They deserve similar protection and inspection. You want to be sure there isn't access for moisture up the coax as well as protecting the conductors and connecting parts. The problem of discovering that the backup system has long since failed right as you need it is a story told far too often. Inspecting and checking that the reserve antenna works properly needs to be part of schedule. If you don't you might as well remove it.

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

A blanket mandatory AIS transmission rule will be dropped from the next race.

I doubt it. The OA is seriously risk averse. They are not going to backtrack on something they have added as a safety measure. It looks bad, and if there is an incident, they will have nowhere to turn. They would be pilloried. And memories are long of the last time. 

I would expect a stern reminder to boats about the rule, some token checking, and a DSQ if a boat really does have its AIS not transmit when checked. There is no need, and they won't be, checking every boat all of the time, but the spectre of a DSQ in the face of the WOXI debacle this time around will scare most skippers off playing fast and loose with the invisibility button.

Given the money each boat spends, mandating SOTDMA Class-B would not be unreasonable. It would cost less than the bar bill on arrival. Pretty soon you won't be able to buy CSTDMA Class-B anyway. The marginal cost in manufacture is probably only a few dollars. Going to a 5 Watt transmitter would make end to end tracking of boats via AIS much easier, and compliance checking much easier. I doubt they will go this far, but as I say, it would not be unreasonable.

IMHO the OA needs to add two things to the SIs.

  • An addition to the AIS mandatory transmit clause that clearly states that a penalty will be mandatory if the AIS transmitter is turned off, up to and including DSQ. - That will scare the chickens enough.
  • An addition to the Media SIs to the effect that any mention of rule infringement by another boat to any member of the accredited media must be followed up by a valid protest. Failure will result in an automatic penalty up to and including DSQ. (Moaning to the media after the protest time window has passed therefore means an automatic penalty.) 

What the OA can't easily fix is the culture that seems present of kow-towing to the yachting gods. The smell that comes from this mess is largely about that. The OA is left with a taint  that they will bend the rules and procedures so that the golden boys of the race are treated a little more favorably than the rest. Bouncing the chair of the IJ that pinged WOXI last year stinks badly. One can just imagine some mid-level club apparatchik thinking that they can't let WOXI get pinged again, quietly removing the IJ chair from this year's IJ,  and being terrified when the AIS mess happened. I don't do conspiracies, but I do do fools out of their depth making really bad decisions, usually more than once. That is where it comes down to culture.

 

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5 hours ago, hoppy said:

Or as I alluded to last year, BJ commented on WOIX's AIS without protesting because they believed it is a dumb ass rule that they do not want. The CYCA was forced into a corner and had to protest (to keep Random like idiots happy) quite possibly knowing it would be thrown out.

I would not be surprised if prior to the race that the owners/reps of the maxis and other top teams had been in discussions with the CYCA expressing their disagreement about the rule. This whole WOIX issue is a continuation of it. 

I would not be surprised if Richo was a loud voice in the CYCA regarding this rule and that it was a deliberate decision by him to turn it off. 

Have you told the Government about those Aliens that contacted you?

img (1).jpg

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29 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Given the money each boat spends, mandating SOTDMA Class-B would not be unreasonable. It would cost less than the bar bill on arrival. Pretty soon you won't be able to buy CSTDMA Class-B anyway.

Francis that won't be happening despite what some say. SOTDMA is not a technological advancement meant to make CSTDMA redundant. It is simply a alternative platform to bridge the gap with Class A with a bit more power and using the same slot reservation approach

The reason CSTDMA for recreational users is restricted to 2 watts and is less responsive is to give Class A transceivers slot priority.

Clutter is a real problem for Commercial users in busy areas. There are already clutter issues with AIS Satelitte recievers/relays that due to their very wide coverage can't process the signals they recieve and get overloaded. More greater powered trancievers will make that worse.

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15 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Clutter is a real problem for Commercial users in busy areas.

True. Point taken.  OTOH, I'm not sure what the answer to clutter really is. The number of slots available in the current protocol is not great. I have thought for a while that there will need to be a revision to the AIS protocols to take into account clutter in some of the really bad areas. The posting a while back about fishermen putting cheap transceivers in their nets really brought home the problem. But things get out of hand in these crowded areas anyway. Hundreds of AIS tracks appearing on your display whichever way you turn makes things really difficult. Unregulated access to AIS transceivers just makes things worse. 

I can see a new tier of AIS becoming needed in a while. Moving to spread spectrum protocols might help in a number of ways. But it is very hard to move the entire world.

'The reason CSTDMA for recreational users is restricted to 2 watts and is less responsive is to give Class A transceivers slot priority."

It gets complicated. CDTDMA isn't as slot friendly as SOTDAM. CD just listens and tries to avoid, relying on its lower power to avoid hitting a class-A transmitting in the slot further away. A Class-B with SOTDMA will actively avoid a reserved slot. And since it swill transmit less often than class-A, you still SOTDMA class-B to make up for the slot utilisation of one class A moving at speed. But you can't fully compare the two, there is a bit of apples versus pears here. So, indeed, CSTDMA may still be more friendly in many uses. 

The problem with the satellites is much harder. There are already a lot of serious smarts involved in de-tangling the overlapping transmissions a sat sees. Clearly there comes a point where no more smarts can help. The answer probably comes from more and lower sats. That doesn't come cheap, but might be a big earner for someone if they get it right.

 

 

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Why can’t/weren’t the AIS regs upgraded along the lines of the VHF and sat phone ones, including checks, penalties and specific declarations? Eg SI’s 37.7, 37.8, 39 and the declaration form?

Did they not learn from all the electronicgate issues in the past? And here we are again.....

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5 hours ago, hoppy said:

Slowly discovering all the stupid things done by the PO, like the house battery not being wired up to be charged from the engine (just shore & solar)

Hoppy you sure engine alternator and starter motor not simply share the same start battery circuit and or alternator diodes not fried by someone disconnecting battery with engine running?

If alternator is on seperate circuit and house and start batts not linked is a odd decision by someone. Interestingly people will call in an electrician for high voltage work thinking it will kill them if wrongly executed but for low voltage DIY. The reality is low voltage done incorrectly probably has a greater chance of if not killing them, burning their boat to the waterline.

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2 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

The posting a while back about fishermen putting cheap transceivers in their nets really brought home the problem. But things get out of hand in these crowded areas anyway. Hundreds of AIS tracks appearing on your display whichever way you turn makes things really difficult. Unregulated access to AIS transceivers just makes things worse. 

My post about that use by fisherman of vessel units was mainly directed to Asia where some countries are like the AIS wild west. Not all though. For instance Singapore registered non SOLAS and recreational vessels Class AIS B has been mandatory for a few years now. They even went one step further and paid for the cost of installation for those registered before that adoption date. With their punitive justice system non compliance probably means you get a 100 lashes of the cane there.

China is the worst offender where you can come across a mile long line of fishing devices all individually coming up as vessels. It looks like you have China's Pacific First Fleet lining you up to take you out.

I'm not aware of this problem in Australia. I think the fishing and aquaculture industry get non vessel AIS transponders properly papered up. With their more prevalent use now the CYC is on the record as saying this is one thing behind their AIS decision making. I suspect things like the Vestas incident and subsequent investigation headed up coincidentally by an ex S2H RC member, could also have guided their decision making.

It is probably not unreasonable to expect that Australia might go the way of Singapore making AIS mandatory, though more difficult with a state by state registration system for all but Australian registered vessels. Not only for collision avoidance but also environmental issues like monitoring fishing exclusion zones etc.

There is also probably a good counter argument that recreational vessels should never have been given access to AIS with an associated lapse in watch keeping culture, that prior to that the fear of being run down by a large vessel was a good motivator.

Maybe the RC should follow Singapores lead with the penalty for not activating your AIS is a canning in Hobarts Town Square? 

caning.jpg

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9 hours ago, Trickypig said:

I spoke to a well known veteran navigator who sailed this race.

He said on the first night quite a few AIS transmitters went off but the following day he saw them again. He is certain it was was deliberate.

It seems to me if you wanted an appearance of compliance whilst cheating you would turn AIS off for a gybe or tack and switch it back on a little later.

In defence of WOXI, I can't imagine a scenario where you simply turned it off before the start and then turned it back on as soon as you hit the dock in Hobart. It's far too obvious and too stupid to do.

 

Tricky there could be a lot of other explanations for that bearing in mind on some race boats power storage and generation can be pretty flakey. For instance at night the ingrained practise of turning off all but key essentials (when power consumption is at its highest) by someone not aware of the rule change? Similarly ingrained tactical use of AIS at night etc?

Yeah the deliberate turn off at start and turn on at end (prepping for delivery home the next day) by WOXI idea hasn't got a lot of legs. The crazy thing if Richo replied with the "fried splitter" story on the dock Friday morning, this thread would barely exist, other than for a few microwave memes. There may not have even been a RC Protest.

However coming out with it 3 days after the event in the contrived way it was, was as good as pouring petrol over yourself and asking for a match.

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Some very interesting comments today. Got me thinking.

Why is the CYC not at least defending AIS as a valuable safety tool?

Nothing, shtoom, not a thing to say on the matter or their reasons for including it in the SI's in the first place.

Curious leadership of the situation.

 

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16 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Please share how an AIS transmitting your position during daylight in good visibility in waters that are pretty quiet with the exception of the S2H racers is a safety benefit?

AIS transmission did not help Vestas or the fishing boat they sunk. 

It's time to draw a line with nanny state stupidity.

Hoppy, you are on fire. Go you good thing.

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2 minutes ago, hoppy said:

The batteries have separate cut off switch and I checked the charging with a clip on amp meter. I have not spent much time looking at it. On my old Jeanneau the wiring was easy to understand as the battery isolator was in an obvious location whilst on my Uncles Jeanneau, it was not visible in the engine bay. 

Now that I think about it, there were two house batteries and they way they are wired up also looks wrong. It's set up with the + & - cables to the switches/consumers both coming off the same battery. That setup usually means the first battery supplies more amps and charges first or something like that.

He has a marine sparky who will fix it all up.

    

That's great Hoppy, over to fix it anarchy for the follow ups.

 

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58 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Why is the CYC not at least defending AIS as a valuable safety tool?

Nothing, shtoom, not a thing to say on the matter or their reasons for including it in the SI's in the first place.

Curious leadership of the situation.

Remember it is only Richo a competitor (and Gladwell) who has gone on the record as being critical of the RC about the mandatory AIS activation rule this year and not at the time, but 3 days after event when back in Sydney as follows, with my emphasis.

"In the TV interview (Channel 2 with BJ/Harburg) following the finish, it was claimed that the other boats had been disadvantaged by being unable to "see" Wild Oats XI on AIS.

Essentially their claim was that it is acceptable to use a safety requirement as a means of deriving a competitive advantage over other boats.

"The mistake that CYCA have made is that they have introduced AIS for the first time this year as a safety measure. The system is just not that accurate, it's flawed and has limited range (about 12nm). There are a whole lot of things that can affect AIS which can only transmit on a VHF frequency," Richards points out.

"The rule is there ostensibly as a safety measure, yet these guys’ biggest beef is that they suffered tactical disadvantage - through a breach of a safety rule."

"Say what you like, but we have been sailing this race for many years with a race tracker, which is as good as anything available.

“The tracker is not live, but it's only a few minutes out. We were all in sight of each other for the whole race and at night we were within two miles of each other. We could see their lights perfectly, and we all knew exactly what was going on."

So a beef between two parties, but only one has put it into the public arena being critical of a internationaly recognised safety measure being inferior to a race tracker. If I was RO/CYC I don't think I would be inclined to follow suit with a public "tit for tat", but do it face to face behind closed doors and fuck the public at this juncture.

Paps however that climate does change enormously along the lines you mention when Richards says this;

“We think the Race Committee should make a public apology to us. We have been accused of something which simply never happened', says a still irate Richards."

The RO/CYC 4 weeks after Richards saying that but saying nothing, simply makes the online chatterati chat louder. For instance those who subscribe to the magic 3rd bullet theory from the Grassy Knoll will be saying both parties are in cahoots. The Gladwell article was designed to get them both off the hook and make the thing go away.

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59 minutes ago, hoppy said:

AIS transmission did not help Vestas or the fishing boat they sunk. 

 

58 minutes ago, hoppy said:

because in the context of the S2H AIS is not such a valuable safety tool.

Hoppy that is because the Chinese regulated fishing boat was not transmitting a AIS signal. As it went to the bottom it was never determined if it was on AIS RX only and so see Vestas hurtling at 10 metres per second towards them in the dark. Vestas's AIS was apparently working.

The Investigation that followed not only recommended steps to enhance AIS capability but to examine the practicalities of other electronic aids to assist, not replace proper watch keeping protocols.

Hoppy you must be a lot smarter than all them fellas combined.

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27 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Remember it is only Richo a competitor (and Gladwell) who has gone on the record as being critical of the RC about the mandatory AIS activation rule this year and not at the time, but 3 days after event when back in Sydney as follows, with my emphasis.

"In the TV interview (Channel 2 with BJ/Harburg) following the finish, it was claimed that the other boats had been disadvantaged by being unable to "see" Wild Oats XI on AIS.

Essentially their claim was that it is acceptable to use a safety requirement as a means of deriving a competitive advantage over other boats.

"The mistake that CYCA have made is that they have introduced AIS for the first time this year as a safety measure. The system is just not that accurate, it's flawed and has limited range (about 12nm). There are a whole lot of things that can affect AIS which can only transmit on a VHF frequency," Richards points out.

"The rule is there ostensibly as a safety measure, yet these guys’ biggest beef is that they suffered tactical disadvantage - through a breach of a safety rule."

"Say what you like, but we have been sailing this race for many years with a race tracker, which is as good as anything available.

“The tracker is not live, but it's only a few minutes out. We were all in sight of each other for the whole race and at night we were within two miles of each other. We could see their lights perfectly, and we all knew exactly what was going on."

So a beef between two parties, but only one has put it into the public arena being critical of a internationaly recognised safety measure being inferior to a race tracker. If I was RO/CYC I don't think I would be inclined to follow suit with a public "tit for tat", but do it face to face behind closed doors and fuck the public at this juncture.

Paps however that climate does change enormously along the lines you mention when Richards says this;

“We think the Race Committee should make a public apology to us. We have been accused of something which simply never happened', says a still irate Richards."

The RO/CYC 4 weeks after Richards saying that but saying nothing, simply makes the online chatterati chat louder. For instance those who subscribe to the magic 3rd bullet theory from the Grassy Knoll will be saying both parties are in cahoots. The Gladwell article was designed to get them both off the hook and make the thing go away.

Can we cut to the chase?

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Please share how an AIS transmitting your position during daylight in good visibility in waters that are pretty quiet with the exception of the S2H racers is a safety benefit?

Fuck they all anchor at night. This place really is a gold mine yet again.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

I would love to know how AIS helps?

I know that when I was solo in Greece playing near busy shipping lanes, the AIS TX was very handy as ships would adjust their course early which took pressure off me. The down side was that when I adjusted my course to give them more room, they sometimes changed course and closed the gap.

No real safety benefit as AIS RX gave me plenty of assistance and the visibility was mostly excellent.

No real safety benefit?  Really?

Um, you weren't hit.....

And you say that transmitting ais allowed ships to maneuver to your advantage? To take pressure off you?

 

Interesting. .....

 

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

Who is fishing? They are launching out of the water all by themselves..like having some beached whale syndrome.

I did observe that in Tasmania Jack.

Most atrocious.

 

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19 minutes ago, paps49 said:

I did observe that in Tasmania Jack.

Most atrocious.

 

Yes and a defence put up by the Jap Whalers that with a couple of pounds of explosive in a harpoon head, they humanly stop whales doing that "we have wheels" thing.

I'm amazed some Greenpeace nutter hasn't gone to Tokyo to carry out the same exercise by shooting pedestrians on a crowded sidewalk so save them the pain of being run over by a bus.

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30 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yes and a defence put up by the Jap Whalers that with a couple of pounds of explosive in a harpoon head, they humanly stop whales doing that "we have wheels" thing.

I'm amazed some Greenpeace nutter hasn't gone to Tokyo to carry out the same exercise by shooting pedestrians on a crowded sidewalk so save them the pain of being run over by a bus.

Exactly, what would Donald do?

Sorry Hoppy didn't mean to leave you out but you leave me speechless.

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17 minutes ago, hoppy said:

have you?

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain the safety benefit in using AIS TX during daylight with good visibility in a low shipping traffic area of the world. Oh yeah, with fully crewed boats, not solo/shorthanded racers.

So many I can't count.

I'm now counting how many watering cans of GrowFast you have to hand that will put us all out of this misery.

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25 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Try me with one, just one genuine safety benefit for a S2H racer during daylight in good visibility....

Here we go yet again. Maybe you can't comprehend a 30 second video so here is a linky for your about your debating approach and why no one can be bothered here to take a bite from your hook.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

BTW fine effort with all those memes. You ticked over another page on a thread that should ordinarily be dead.

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10 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I'm just after one genuine safety benefit for a S2H racer during daylight in good visibility....

If you give it to me, maybe I will consider supporting the CYCA's rule on mandatory AIS TX

The rule is not mandatory AIS TX. It is mandatory AIS RX and TX. They forget to turn it on at dusk, or even forget to turn it on when visibility is reduced in daylight etc? You also seem to forget RX capability during the day for things other than just vessels, like AIS enabled fishing devices etc.

That enough?

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52 minutes ago, hoppy said:

So nav lights should be on, 24/7?

No according to COLREG's and which over arch any rule anyone in the sailing world by regulation or rule they can come up with and so they do not modify COLREG's for obvious reasons. You know what they are right?

Hoppy I'm perplexed by your thinking? To date I have put it down to you simply gargling "WOXI Cock Wash" which is fine. No problem with that, diversity of opinion is good.

However by your own words upthread you're now channelling Richo being that a Race Tracker is a superior safety device and anything AIS is shit to defend the indefensible. The only explanation now left is you have ceased gargling and are now drinking that cock wash by the bucket full.

Mate I really hope you don't explode.

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39 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Assuming it is mandatory at night.... Still not a daytime good vis safety issue. 

Gawd. 

No safety equipment is of any value at all when there isn't a safety issue. PDFs? Why bother carry them unless your boat is sinking. PLB? waste of time unless you fall overboard. You are constantly moving the goal-posts. Perfect sailing conditions isn't a valid argument about why AIS should not be mandatory all time transmit. 

Safety is almost always about the human factor. You craft the regulations around that, not the ins and outs of the precise time and need for safety. Go into any industrial workshop without the requisite gear on (glasses, shoes, etc) and you will get quickly escorted out. Doesn't matter that you have no intention of doing anything stupid when you walk in. Reality is that people do do stupid things. The safety rules are crafted around the simple truth that people can do unsafe things with even the best intentions. Most of all people get tired. Even the best trained, top of their game, expert in their field, can be a dolt when they get tired. The number of really nasty and fatal accidents that have come from nothing but human failure in the face of fatigue is depressing. 

Jack provided the answer that was uppermost in my mind. Leaving the AIS on permanently is safer than turning it on and off. The fact that it might be on during times of perfect visibility and with nary a ship in sight doesn't detract from the fact that turning it on and off is inherently less safe.

Unless you are trying your hand at trawling for a bite, you are just being idiotic.

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4 minutes ago, hoppy said:

but it's not the only way to prevent it. Your eyes are a big part of it.

You missed the entire part about fatigue. You are simply assuming that you will always be operating at 100%. That you will never forget. Never make a mistake. Also, that those around you will never make a mistake, will always keep a perfect lookout. The argument is close to the anti-vaxxers. They end up only being safe so long as everyone else gets vaccinated. Mandating full time AIS transmit simply says that you don't get to push the invisibility button. Nothing more. It will always be safer than having skippers going invisible when they feel it will advantage them, and will always be safer than needing someone to remember to go visible again.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

You are strawmaning...

 

I'm just after one genuine safety benefit for a S2H racer during daylight in good visibility....

If you give it to me, maybe I will consider supporting the CYCA's rule on mandatory AIS TX. 

 

But you can't, because there are no safety benefits. It's not needed for collision avoidance, the CYCA has the sat tracker to know where every yacht is (or was up to 10 minutes ago) in an emergency. It's not needed for MOB, only RX is needed.

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I'm trying to think of a word to describe you - dork immediately springs to mind.

The mandatory rule is a 2-3 year old inclusion in World Sailing's Special Offshore Regulations for ALL races of Category 2 or more severe, the inclusion by the CYCA is, in my view belated, why would one NOT insist on a (primarily) safety feature at a local level when the world governing body had not already done so.

You want one good reason for AIS being a genuine safety benefit during daylight in good visibility?

Why don't you jump overboard in even a moderate sea state while the boat is charging downwind with the kite up. It could have gone a mile before the crew of similar ability and sailing sense to yourself have got the kite off, engine on and turned round. They are now going to be searching an area of a significant % of a square mile for your little bobbing head in whatever sea state exists. Oh they might switch on the AIS which might flash up immediately or it might error out. The state of the AIS would already be known if it was already on.

Then instead of depending on the mark one eyeball there would be the additional assistance of a homing signal.

Your argument that it is not needed for collision avoidance is laughable - the tracker will suffice? Have you any idea how much ocean a containership can cover in 10 minutes. Or even  a 50 foot race boat? Our boat was hitting 25 knots a couple of years ago. 1 6th of an hour = 4 Nm. That immediately dramatically increases any search area.

In fact why don't you just jump overboard without an AIS not pinging and do us all a favour.

Like ALL safety gear we all hope it is the biggest waste of money ever but when it does go tits up you will be glad you spent the dollars.

Your comments just prove that you may be a sailor (even that remains to be proven) but you certainly are no seaman.

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1 minute ago, Francis Vaughan said:

You missed the entire part about fatigue. You are simply assuming that you will always be operating at 100%. That you will never forget. Never make a mistake. Also, that those around you will never make a mistake, will always keep a perfect lookout. The argument is close to the anti-vaxxers. They end up only being safe so long as everyone else gets vaccinated. Mandating full time AIS transmit simply says that you don't get to push the invisibility button. Nothing more. It will always be safer than having skippers going invisible when they feel it will advantage them, and will always be safer than needing someone to remember to go visible again.

Good point Francis. having to switch on, or remembering to switch on when the viz decreases to such an amount is another opportunity for operator error

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Assuming it is mandatory at night.... Still not a daytime good vis safety issue. 

 

1 hour ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Unless you are trying your hand at trawling for a bite, you are just being idiotic.

 

22 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Your comments just prove that you may be a sailor (even that remains to be proven) but you certainly are no seaman

This is where I have to step in as a moderator. Hoppy has said upthread his experience with AIS was in the Med going from bar to bar in a Jeaneau he purchased over there. He then tracked via AIS the ship it was on bringing it home to Australia.

That deserves some credit.

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16 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Are you serious????

We are talking about the AIS being in silent mode v transmitting, not turned off.

No you and you alone are talking that AIS TX only Strawman drivel. The S2H SI stipulated AIS TX and RX were to be activated at all times.

Anyway on the bright side I have found you a nice plot. Sorry about the lack of words.

images (21).jpeg

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34 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

This is where I have to step in as a moderator. Hoppy has said upthread his experience with AIS was in the Med going from bar to bar in a Jeaneau he purchased over there. He then tracked via AIS the ship it was on bringing it home to Australia.

That deserves some credit.

 

29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

In one afternoon in Greece I encountered more ships crossing my path than I did when sailing from Sydney to Melbourne. Anyone sailing out of Mel, Syd, Ade, Bris knows nothing about sailing around commercial shipping.

I tracked by boat by YellowBrick, not AIS

Hoppy I must warn you I'm a mere breath away from dying from fucking laughter here.

So you put a YB on your boat which was on a ship from Europe to Australia. You did not rely on AIS tracking of that ship only your YB right.

Putting aside that answers a few questions about your views like Richo that YB/GPS tracking is superior to AIS, did you ever feel compelled to ring up the Captain of that ship and remind him of where the Panama Canal was?

You can't make up this shit.

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26 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hoppy I must warn you I'm a mere breath away from dying from fucking laughter here.

So you put a YB on your boat which was on a ship from Europe to Australia. You did not rely on AIS tracking of that ship only your YB right.

Putting aside that answers a few questions about your views like Richo that YB/GPS tracking is superior to AIS, did you ever feel compelled to ring up the Captain of that ship and remind him of where the Panama Canal was?

You can't make up this shit.

 

18 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Fuck jack, we gave up on the 2018 race. I'm talking how the 2019 SI should be. 

 

18 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Tracking my boat has nothing to do with this topic. It was originally posted because of questions about the S2H's YB trackers. 

Really you are just a fuckwit.

 

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