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2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI


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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

I did. Me and a bunch of my Lebo bro's took the pledge. Even got me a couple of new Tatts to mark the occasion. Found a great new Tattoo shop.

Image result for Tattooed bogan with aussie flag

 

 

Odd choice for a Queenslander - couldn't your tattooist spell XXXX?

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In loving memory of Clark and Daw We welcome this evening Mr Richard the skipper of the winning power boat. Hello Brian. Mr Richard, may we call you Dick? Sure Brian, most

If Matt Allen as President of AS has any balls he should put Harburg/Bradford and Oatley/Richards in a room and read them the riot act. Harburg for not protesting but having a cry on national TV and O

Ok I am now caught up on this thread. Yes I went live - first actually - with the news direct from Shipwright Arms where WOXI were having lunch in one room, and BJ in the other. Was the best place to

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35 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Your position will be displayed on their VHF units because you've hit the DSC button. Your nav can direct you to that position.

Ok Hoppy assume that vessel in receipt of your position is within VHF range, you have the gear down and you have turned around a couple of miles downwind of that position. Do you either;

a) Return to that position and wait; or

b) Go look for the MOB?

And by the way DSC enabled VHF is not mandatory for this race.

Mate I'm starting to run out of ping pong balls here so you need to slow these clown brain farts down.

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6 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

Odd choice for a Queenslander - couldn't your tattooist spell XXXX?

Nah- just wanted to look like a real Aussie bogan and as we all know - Victoria is the race hate capital of Australia.

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1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

Nah- just wanted to look like a real Aussie bogan and as we all know - Victoria is the race hate capital of Australia.

Pauline Hanson, Bob Katter & Co might like to argue about that

 

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11 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

Pauline Hanson, Bob Katter & Co might like to argue about that

 

But those lovely chaps who organised the St Kilda rally won’t. And do your homework before posting. Bob Katter isn’t a racist. Poofters are not a race...

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Man, that's a headfuck step for me Pil. 

Getting used to powered winches doing things like furliing...I get how you size the torque loading of the winch so you don't over power the sail and tear it to bits, but still. But this would be critical on a boat that big wouldn't it?

That's a lot of torque to furl something that big.

What happens if there is pressure in the sail when you furl? Can you fuck up and pull the sail apart?

 

It is absolutely mind blowing the first time you see either a MO / kite go up or is furled.... the pit winch (and others) spits line out of the self tailer so fast that when furling, you never have to regulate the slack on the sheet to get a tight furl... just free the sheet from the drum but make damn sure you are clear of it as it feeds out of the rope bag  NOTE: It's important after every maneuver to religiously tidy up all excess sheet tails to their dedicated bags.... ALWAYS.... 

You can cause huge damage to sails and rig buy not paying attention on winches.... hence why the pros are on board and paid well these days ...

I sailed Comanche before it had power winches and it was brutal, now after just recently delivering it home,  i'm astounded at how much easier everything is... Changing gears is fast and way easier than on my 38ft cat.... 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Don't forget sucking in the bowman and pulling him apart.

It's surprising more people aren't hurt these days on big boats 

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1 hour ago, VOA said:

If ais is being used as a tactical tool wouldn’t that be outside assistance?

Not if all competitors have AIS “on”. Equal playing field. But any competitor with AIS “off “or “on” but unreceivable by other competitors has a potential tactical advantage and should put it in the declaration to the RC for them to determine the facts and make a ruling on them with penalties as they deem appropriate. Not to do so is cheating.

Problem with this particular race, despite CYCA’s considerable expertise and experience on electronic matters, was that it is not clear what minimum level of  “on” is required by the SI’s, Nothing was stated as to how AIS compliance would be policed, and no fixed penalties proscribed for some of the most obvious non compliance situations. CYCA own all of this. None of this in any way however relieved a competitor from declaring his particular AIS non compliant circumstances and leaving it to the RC as per above. WOXI presumably “believed” their AIS was “on” and declared accordingly.

If a competitor found out after declaring, that they were AIS non compliant they should/could have amended their declaration. Bogus protest and all, there was plenty of time to put matters right before the official prizegiving on 31 December.

WOXI knew and didn’t,  CYCA also knew and didn’t, so they really do own ALL of it. After all, they set the rules and they hand out the prizes.

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STEPS ON HOW TO SPOT A DROWNING FOOL WITHOUT AIS

3 hours ago, frant said:

Unfortunately the worst case scenario situation is the one that is going to come into play. It’s the crash gybe in the middle of the SO. That needs to be considered. No point in any discussion of an event like the S2H utilising anything but best practice. That is AIS Tx and Rx fully functional at all times, if the splitter is fried (or drowned in a wipeout) should have resources to rectify that before it becomes a matter of life or death.

That is a matter of respect to those who have been lost.

 

2 hours ago, hoppy said:

 Please explain how it helps in a MOB situation?

 

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

TX mmm...how about other vessels responding to your MOB Distress Alert being able to find you quickly and from a distance maybe 15 times greater than a PLB beacon can transmit?

 

2 hours ago, hoppy said:

Your position will be displayed on their VHF units because you've hit the DSC button. Your nav can direct you to that position.

 

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Ok Hoppy assume that vessel in receipt of your position is within VHF range, you have the gear down and you have turned around a couple of miles downwind of that position. Do you either;

a) Return to that position and wait; or

b) Go look for the MOB?

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

You are either playing or dumb as fuck...

How is the vessel going to receive your position if they are not in VHF range?

Hoppy I don't believe I'm dumb, however I do know you avoid simple "either or" questions like the plague. Do they confuse you so you go the Strawman instead and yet again?

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

And by the way DSC enabled VHF is not mandatory for this race.

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

And the CYCA mandated AIS TX. FFS

Hoppy you really are becoming the Strawman king. However you forget it was you that came up with DSC VHF as a stand in for mandatory AIS TX activation.

However as you now want to go down that burrow. Why shouldn't the RC do the reverse and have AIS TX stand in for VHF DSC which is only a single static lat long manually activated position in time? Unlike AIS it is not a chart based real time automatic updated position having additional COG and SOG data? This approach also enables costs to be kept down by grandfathering non DSC VHF units.

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mate I'm starting to run out of ping pong balls here so you need to slow these clown brain farts down.

970973223_images(25).jpeg.882d846541a074001f5e1368944972fe.jpeg

 

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

If you stop shoving them up your arse, you'll be able to stick them in your mouth and shut up.

 

x-ray-concrete-anus1.gif

Now Hoppy I understand this discourse is causing you great discomfort, just as that picture taken by your proctologist of that gerbil shows. However the simple fact is you are the sole one responsible. No-one here is prompting you to gush out with these amazing pieces of nautical know-how, yet you keep doing it time and time again.

Studies show that even the most severely retarded people know they are retarded. I am therefore having a lot of trouble categorising you. However if I turn my mind to it using your inevitable next post, I'm sure something will come up.

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1 hour ago, PIL66 said:

but make damn sure you are clear of it as it feeds out of the rope bag  NOTE: It's important after every maneuver to religiously tidy up all excess sheet tails to their dedicated bags.... ALWAYS.... 

Sounds like co-ordination is a pro's differentiator to a club hack. Not reading your crewmates right would be expensive for the owner, and not too good for career prospects I'd imagine.

Re ropes feeding..I'd spent years carefully coiling ropes before re-inserting in the rope bags, and hence dumping it out on the deck when I wanted it to run. The Frenchies showed me how they do it short handed style. which in short form is grab a foot length of rope in your hand wrist up, then rotate it into a laid up position in the bag, then grab the next section and lay on top...rinse repeat. Feels messy, but the rope slithers out of the bags just so nicely every time.

Having dedicated rope bags, now there's a dream. 

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2 hours ago, PIL66 said:

but make damn sure you are clear of it as it feeds out of the rope bag  NOTE: It's important after every maneuver to religiously tidy up all excess sheet tails to their dedicated bags.... ALWAYS...

 

1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Sounds like co-ordination is a pro's differentiator to a club hack. Not reading your crewmates right would be expensive for the owner, and not too good for career prospects I'd imagine.

Re ropes feeding..I'd spent years carefully coiling ropes...

Shaggy remember "letting off" has not changed at all between manual and hydraulic (though days of wire challenging) so that skill base has remained unchanged. As for "bringing in" putting aside quicker gearing response with hydraulic, a set of pedestals can quickly do a lot of damage just as easily, without someone on the drum knowing what they are doing.

The big leap is comparative "line speed" which takes a bit of getting used to, but certainly not the sole domain of pros.

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17 minutes ago, hoppy said:

why should I waste my time answering a dumb question like this...

Dunno ..maybe because that dumb question matched exactly your idea that DSC VHF can replace AIS TX in a MOB where there is outside assistance involved?

Anyway thanks for that reply. However I'm struggling chosing between "Imbecilic" and "Asinine" to categorise you.

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29 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Shaggy remember "letting off" has not changed at all between manual and hydraulic so that skill base has remained unchanged. As for "bringing in" putting aside quicker gearing response with hydraulic, a set of pedestals can quickly do a lot of damage just as easily, without someone on the drum knowing what they are doing.

The big leap is comparative "line speed" which takes a bit of getting used to, but certainly not the sole domain of pros.

That's true, but I still think a grinder has some feel that everything is fully loaded up before the foot goes twang.

Having said that, I've only sailed with one post on a 60'  so I have no idea what linked grinders on a 100' behemoth like Commanche are like. 

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25 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

That's true, but I still think a grinder has some feel that everything is fully loaded up before the foot goes twang.

A good ear at the drum. Puts deaf old pricks out of a job though.

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1 hour ago, frant said:

As mid said

which leads us back to Tx and Rx at all times cause you never know when it might be useful

 

49 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Did you carry a condom in your wallet or fit it on before a date?

Hoppy those condoms @Mid and @frant may or may not carry around are just like those binoculars around your neck. Yep you know the ones just in case you ever get close to going outside the sight of land one day, and god forbid let alone do a offshore race one day. 

The difference being of course they can on the piss blow them up pretending to be coneheads, have laugh and then throw them in the bin.

Unfortunately mate in your case the cone thing is a permanent fixture with only helium inside so you have to walk around wearing lead shoes.

That must be a real pisser when you're running late for the bus to your numerous  psychiatric appointments.

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1 hour ago, frant said:

As mid said

which leads us back to Tx and Rx at all times cause you never know when it might be useful

 

51 minutes ago, hoppy said:

If that's what you feel then you should be allowed to do it that way. Just like MR and others should be allowed to race with silent mode.

 

48 minutes ago, Mid said:

provided it's agreed upfront in the SI's .

 

43 minutes ago, hoppy said:

or not mentioned in the SI's which means the S2H reverts back to the WS/AS rules... 

Hoppy you are so dumb the worlds Bats and their shit are up in arms denying any association with your drivel. Word is out the Union of Pond Scum are lining up beside them.

11.4 Changes to Special Regulations
• Special Regulation 4.09 (a): An AIS Transponder shall be carried and be switched on, such that it is receiving and transmitting.

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16 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Like Randumb used to ‘Hypothesis’ about George W Bush ordering the World trade centre attacks and the moon landing being filmed in Nevada? It’s called a conspiracy theroy. Do they sell tin foil hats over there?

Er - not quite the same thing. Checking back can PROVE that the Jury Chairman DID have 8 years on the Sydney Hobart Jury, DID find WOXI in breach of Rule 13 & failing to take a penalty under Rule 44.1.

Then this year WOW! He wasn't invited back! FACT. Only theoretical part  is the "why". Couldn't have been for applying the rules and he was one of 5, not acting alone and he is one of the most knowledgeable judges on the planet.

But let's be straight, I am not criticising the PC this time round. Russel Green is also a very competent IJ, as are the others. Like their immediate predecessors they applied the rules to the letter and the fault the protest as invalid WAS NOT THEIRS.

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41 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

He obviously has difficulty reading Jack

Difficulty reading..when have you been so generous Shang. Hoppy is as blind as a Bat, dumber than Bat shit and the Union's of Dumb Cunts and Pond Scum are denying any association?

That means Hoppy is barely organic. It would be like having a conversation with a blade of grass providing an animal pissed on it I guess?

He does keep coming back though to reinforce that opinion which is comforting.

I can't wait for his experience of having a GPS ankle bracelet to lecture us all on oceanic tracking.

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2 hours ago, frant said:

You really are a dumb cunt Hoppy, my comment was that if the pushpit went over the back of the boat with you hanging taking a piss then you have an MOB situation. You simply can’t predict when that is going to happen. For all we know it might be the rig that comes down. It is simply best practice to have AIS Tx on at all times so that it is ready and available because when the shit is going down is not the time to be fucking around with active safety devices. These are systems that others can use for your assistance, no need to fuck around with Tx on or off. Simply on at all times will suffice. 

No doubt you don’t insist on your buddy wearing a condom when he fucks you up the arse. You already shared body fluids orally so it s not going to be a safety measure in your case.

Eeeewwwww, I hope you didn’t have to witness that!

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13 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Problem with this particular race, despite CYCA’s considerable expertise and experience on electronic matters, was that it is not clear what minimum level of  “on” is required by the SI’s, 

Side SI's seem pretty fucking clear;

11.4 Changes to Special Regulations
• Special Regulation 4.09 (a): 
An AIS Transponder shall be carried and be switched on, such that it is receiving and transmitting.

Seems to me this thread is now developing its own urban myths.

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Side SI's seem pretty fucking clear;

11.4 Changes to Special Regulations
• Special Regulation 4.09 (a): 
An AIS Transponder shall be carried and be switched on, such that it is receiving and transmitting.

Seems to me this thread is now developing its own urban myths.

I know that very well, but MR seemed to imply that he had accidentally achieved that state of AIS tactical nirvana where everything was on, with magical full receive and very weak transmit, so weak in fact that no one could see it..... Everyone will be installing WOXI style fried splitters next year unles CYCA does something about it......

Imagine, an AIS transponder with two transmit signal strengths....  a pathetically weak one for racing which no one can see, but it’s demonstrably there, then flick a switch, (or change the special fried splitter) and you are back up to full strength for return deliveries.... 

“Special fried splitter” sounds like something from nouvelle Chinoise  cuisine?

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30 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

I know that very well, but MR seemed to imply that he had accidentally achieved that state of AIS tactical nirvana where everything was on, with magical full receive and very weak transmit, so weak in fact that no one could see it..... Everyone will be installing WOXI style fried splitters next year unles CYCA does something about it......

Imagine, an AIS transponder with two transmit signal strengths....  a pathetically weak one for racing which no one can see, but it’s demonstrably there, then flick a switch, (or change the splitter) and you are back up to full strength for return deliveries.... 

But, but, but that would be..........cheating????

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20 minutes ago, frant said:

I agree with you fully that that appears to be MR’s contention. However the RRS have a common usage of words interpretation. The word transmit would therefore have the requirement to be as we commonly interpret that. Ie WOXI was “transmitting” for a brief period prior to the race and then on the way back.

It is interesting that the navigator initially said that he “thought” that they had been transmitting at all times. No definitive statement that yes we were Tx (on) at all times from him or anyone onboard for that matter.

One of the Goals that Tim, Marisa and I set ourselves when we were establishing the National safety auditing scheme (yes mate I was one of the people that made this happen - in fact it was YQ that pushed for this process and I was chair of the state offshore safety committee at the time) was to remove any interpretation from the Auditors role. It was either there or not, compliant or not or indate or not. This can only be achieved by very clear language in the Special Reg’s and most importantly, in any additions/variations written in SI’s. IMO safety audits are as much about fairness as safety. All that will come of this will be more scrutiny/inspections of AIS, more paperwork and more expense for owners. The inclusion of compulsory AIS is a fuckup- pure and simple. If Ricko has done nothing else, he has brought about a debate on the issue. Even if only about 5 of us are participating or giving a shit.

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35 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Do you give a shit? I don't, so whilst there may be 5 discussing it, I suspect only 2 give a shit whilst Jack is here to show off his google skills and to stalk me. It seems like he has wood for me. 

ere.jpg

Yeah I do give a shit. I want to see a level playing field in the sport and people to enjoy it without so much angst and expense. AIS is letting the genie out of the bottle for a whole new world of protests and hurt. It is also completely unnecessary. To retrieve a MOB with a personal AIS transmitter the boat does not need to be transmitting. To have a device that tells your competitors your every move removes much of the tactics that made the sport interesting. The 100's showed that this year.

As Sqwark told me 'No one was game to try anything'. 

So yeah I care a lot. Farking stupid and our sport has more rules than any other. Too many stupid rules is exactly why the once great game of Rugby union is now fucked.

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1 hour ago, paps49 said:

But, but, but that would be..........cheating????

Bit like complaining to the Ed about 'Name calling' hey cupcake.

Oh gosh and there I go again. I am so sorry for hurting your feelings mate. I hope you can move on one day.

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Since this Seinfield thread isn't showing any sign of dying we should start some traditions of our own. Back when the '1000 days' thread was at its peak, every time we got to a new page, a pic of Elle's (a long time contributor) tits was posted. Golden days. Of course if we did that now some pussy would get offended and go running off to the moderator for a good cry...

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5 minutes ago, frant said:

I don’t understand your opposition to AIS. The tactical element is irrelevant even if it is a significant advantage. I was pissed off when people could simply sail to each end of the start line and ping the ends. Now everyone knows which end is favoured, by how much, when the next shift is going to arrive and with good polars everyone is simply sailing with Predictwind or whatever modelling in use. That could maybe be the reason that the boats stick together, they are all getting the same computer generated advise.

Nothing wrong with the audit of AIS.

Installed ....tick

masthead antenae ( via splitter).. tick

By putting boat up for audit you are declaring that it is an operational system with appropriate maintenance.

Nothing wrong with SI’s

AIS must be Tx and Rx operational.

No drama and need for any clarification. After the splitter was (allegedly)  fried it was no longer Tx operational. No ifs and no buts.

Simply put that in the post race declaration, accept your penalty, if any, and there will be no ussue.

You May be of the opinion that AIS is of no value, it does seem that the rest of the maritime world do not agree. AIS is contingent on everyone being Tx otherwise it does lose its value. Ie You can see me and take measures to avoid me because I am Tx. It is an obligation on you to do the same for me. Now just because you are an extremely wealthy group taking part in an exclusive event doesn’t remove your obligation. And surely  even you must concede that in the event of an incident at sea it will be better if everyone can see each other, including the search coordinator.

As a safety Auditor do you test to see it is working? As I said, the intent of auditing is to create fairness and safety. What other items do you take the owners word on? Anchors? Life jackets? How come we need a radio inspection cert but not an AIS one? I said it doesn't add value to a yacht race. Please quote where I said it has no value. Regardless of its value, the vast majority of recreational and fishing vessels do not have it and you are much more likely to have a close encounter with one of them than a vessel over 300 tons. It does however give comfort to fools who can only put to sea surrounded by screens. Anyone who gets run down by a ship is simply doing what Charles Darwin wrote about. Back when I was teaching in the south of the UK I was operating in and out of Southampton and Portsmouth daily in all conditions of visibility. No GPS or AIS back then. Just RADAR (sometimes) and a body of knowledge and experience. Crossed the English Channel 76 times including many times in a pea soup fog. The traffic there would fry someone from Melbourne with its 10 or so shipping movements a days' brain. And yes I sail on your little bay a regularly. You see Frant, like many others with limited experience you appear to think the latest shiny thing can replace seamanship.

'It is an obligation on you to do the same for me.' Are you talking about moral or legal obligation? Either way you are talking complete Bullshit. Why is it up to me to have an AIS transmitting just because you don't know how to keep a good and proper lookout? And before you start quoting colregs you don't understand, 'All other means applicable in the prevailing circumstances and conditions' does not mean you have to have one on board, just that you need to use it if you do have one fitted and 'the prevailing circumstances and conditions' require it. It is not even a requirement for my commercially registered yachts.

And I ask again, Did you hit many boats before AIS?  

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45 minutes ago, frant said:

 The tactical element is irrelevant even if it is a significant advantage.

Since you haven't done an Offshore race with compulsory AIS transmission yet, may I respectfully remind you you are talking through your arse. You should listen to those that actually have experience. It appears that the National safety Auditing system has failed. Another goal was to weed out all the arrogant know-alls.

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1 minute ago, frant said:

 Not interested in a pissing contest with you.

well you were a few ago.

 

2 minutes ago, frant said:

I think that perhaps the old adage “ if you can’t DO, then teach” applies in your case.........you are a teacher of sailing are you not?

No I am a Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor and Examiner, an instructor trainer and an Examiner of Instructors and Examiners for both power and sail. I am also a MCA Foreign going Master 500 tons with over 250 000 miles at sea. A sailing teacher would be someone who plays around in little sailing dinghies. Like optis and Lasers.

Your turn for a piss old mate

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9 minutes ago, frant said:

Same old habit of belittling, It is not actually a respectful statement of yours and actually paints you as an arrogant know all..

Wait. Are you belittling me? Gosh. I am wounded. Harden up and try to get some one to explain 'Irony' to you.

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4 hours ago, LB 15 said:

 If Ricko has done nothing else, he has brought about a debate on the issue. Even if only about 5 of us are participating or giving a shit.

I think most here believe this is a circle jerk of 5 or so..... It couldn't be further from the truth.... Many in the top end of town ARE reading this..... Surprised..?  I'm not.

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4 minutes ago, frant said:

And here you display your very poor comprehension skills. What I have said that yes it is a tactical advantage, same as gps pinging startlines, and using computer generated tactical decisions based on computer generated wind models.

My Comprehension skills? In fact it doesn't give anyone a 'tactical advantage' cupcake, quite the opposite. That is my point. It removes tactics from the game. you laser types might not like to hit the corners from time to time but some of us who have built up decades of knowledge of a race track just get followed by the sheep watching on AIS. You remind me of the lefty education system that gives the stupid fat kid a prize for 'trying hard'. GPS and use of weather modeling are completely different. You could never police their use so there would be no point in banning them. AIS just dumbs down the sport so the fat weazy kid can get to compete as well. It is like making every kid wear a fat suit to run the 100 metre race.

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4 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

I think most here believe this is a circle jerk of 5 or so..... It couldn't be further from the truth.... Many in the top end of town ARE reading this..... Surprised..?  I'm not.

Yes I know some are - but only for entertainment and possibly legal reasons...

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7 minutes ago, frant said:

I beg to differ that this is belittling. It is merely a statement of verifiable fact. Same as the dickhead call. Let the facts speak for themselves.

And again! 

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18 minutes ago, frant said:

 

However if one boat (say WOXI) chooses to hit the silent button ( and cheat) then it is not the fault of AIS, the auditing system or the Rules of Sailing. It’s a defect in their behaviour and requires cultural change. Don’t worship that behaviour.

Not a very good idea to post an accusation like that, particularly since you have pointed out how famous you are and how easy it is to find out your identity...

Calling icons of the sport 'cheats' on a international forum might not be your smartest tactical move lamb chop.

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18 minutes ago, frant said:

I beg to differ that this is belittling. It is merely a statement of verifiable fact. Same as the dickhead call. Let the facts speak for themselves.

2sdepx.jpg

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27 minutes ago, frant said:

And a dickhead. You certainly don’t present yourself in a favourable light as being capable of relating to people and transferring on of those skills. As I said we are talking about the person behind the LB mask. That person does not present well.

Look at that. A belittling edit!

Fuck I love this place.

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32 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Regardless of its value, the vast majority of recreational and fishing vessels do not have it and you are much more likely to have a close encounter with one of them than a vessel over 300 tons. It does however give comfort to fools who can only put to sea surrounded by screens.

The fact that it is not compulsory other than for IMO controlled shipping or in places like the EU for fishing vessels over 15 metres that renders the safety argument as pretty hollow.

It also puts into question why AIS's inclusion in the Special Regs should have appeared in the first place. As soon as TX transmission became mandatory as in the case of this race, it has taken it from something having marginal safety benefit in that context of vessels without it, to launching it into being a tactical tool and something never intended. Maybe more thought should have been given to its inclusion as mandatory gear in the first place before rushing in and adopting it.

Its use outside safety is already occuring elsewhere. For instance some countries are now insisting on its 24/7 activation by all foreign vessels in their territorial waters. Not for safety but border control.

As for over reliance on screens and proper watch keeping practise going to shit there is a pretty good argument that recreational vessels at least up to a certain size should never have been given access to AIS in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The fact that it is not compulsory other than for IMO controlled shipping or in places like the EU for fishing vessels over 15 metres that renders the safety argument as pretty hollow.

It also puts into question why AIS's inclusion in the Special Regs should have appeared in the first place. As soon as TX transmission became mandatory as in the case of this race, it has taken it from something having marginal safety benefit in that context of vessels without it, to launching it into being a tactical tool and something never intended. Maybe more thought should have been given to its inclusion as mandatory gear in the first place before rushing in and adopting it.

Its use outside safety is already occuring elsewhere. For instance some countries are now insisting on its 24/7 activation by all foreign vessels in their territorial waters. Not for safety but border control.

As for over reliance on screens and proper watch keeping practise going to shit there is a pretty good argument that recreational vessels at least up to a certain size should never have been given access to AIS in the first place.

Totally agree. As I have said before - AIS has just added to the Nintendo navigator culture that is now widespread in recreational boating. Here in Moreton Bay our local volunteer marine rescue numpties were pushing for compulsory AIS so in their words "we could keep an eye on everyone and respond quicker to emergencies'

Like you would want those clowns anywhere near you in a real emergency. That is why there is a facebook page set up for the sole purpose of hanging shit on them and their stupid claims. Every time they tow in someone who has broken down they claim that as 'another life saved'. 

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Personally, I'm a big fan of AIS... anyone who has sailed passed Gabo Island a few times in the dark probably would be... but I'm totally comfortable with the idea that AIS shouldn't be compulsory and compulsorily "on" for offshore yacht racing...

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

My Comprehension skills? In fact it doesn't give anyone a 'tactical advantage' cupcake, quite the opposite. That is my point. It removes tactics from the game. you laser types might not like to hit the corners from time to time but some of us who have built up decades of knowledge of a race track just get followed by the sheep watching on AIS. You remind me of the lefty education system that gives the stupid fat kid a prize for 'trying hard'. GPS and use of weather modeling are completely different. You could never police their use so there would be no point in banning them. AIS just dumbs down the sport so the fat weazy kid can get to compete as well. It is like making every kid wear a fat suit to run the 100 metre race.

Oh great sage of the yachting world.

If ais just dums down the fleet and creates a follow the leader train to the finish,  how did a boat that was following the leader get in front?

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2 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Oh great sage of the yachting world.

If ais just dums down the fleet and creates a follow the leader train to the finish,  how did a boat that was following the leader get in front?

They sailed faster? You have done a yacht race right?

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13 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

They sailed faster? You have done a yacht race right?

I've done the occasional race, yes.

And even you know that the fastest boat doesn't always win.

In the context of ais being a tactical tool, you get boatspeed and heading. So you get to see if faster boats are sailing into more or less wind.

Doesn't take a Victorian to understand that sailing around boats stuck in a hole is advantageous.

 

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

As for over reliance on screens and proper watch keeping practise going to shit there is a pretty good argument that recreational vessels at least up to a certain size should never have been given access to AIS in the first place.

What is that pretty good argument then?

In my cruising boat I have AIS TX on all the time, but don't have RX integrated to the chart plotter at the helm, just down below and normally off. It gives me a buzz when we are bumbling along and see that some container ship has changed course 10 NM away to avoid us. (I have seen the same racing, not that the big boats know or care that the fleet of boats are in a race, I suspect that they just want to keep away from a large group of numpties changing direction at random)

I also like that now I get calls on the radio referencing our boat by name, rather than "Vessel at 38 51.11s 145 45.25 E what are your intentions". It takes me too long to work out if they are trying to talk to me...

I did like watching another boat in a race one dark night wandering around in circles north of Flinders Island. Warmed the cockles of my heart it did.

 

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2 hours ago, Weyalan said:

Personally, I'm a big fan of AIS... but I'm totally comfortable with the idea that AIS shouldn't be compulsory and compulsorily "on" for offshore yacht racing...

Likewise Weyalan.

If it is not compulsory on all vessels and even those where it is, they can turn off Class B RX to reduce clutter on their Class A transceivers, its mandatory inclusion as a safety device and in particular for collision avoidance, is an argument that doesn't have a lot of legs.

The inclusion this year of mandatory activation seems to stem from only two things if you assume vessel numbers traversing the race track haven't sky rocketed since 2017. The Vestas incident in early 2018 and subsequent Investigation and I understand static AIS transponders on fishing devices becoming more prevalent.

First while directly related to the Vestas incident, the report was directed at racing in congested areas. You would hardly call the S2H that. AIS was a feature of the report but in the context that while Vestas's was working, there was no AIS TX from the fishing vessel, therefore effectively rendering the system useless. There is an argument that this reliance on a non functioning system meant proper watch keeping may have lapsed and without that lapse a collision may have been avoided. That said racing boats triple headed going quickly make that a challenge for the lee bow side. That characteristic makes AIS inclusion and activation for congested environments pretty compelling. 

As for static AIS transponders on fishing devices wouldn't a warning at the Race Briefing suffice? Why is special lookout for a marked obstruction any different than for those not marked?

So it is probably reasonable to say the RC overeacted to those two things. While the need for mandatory activation of RX is at best marginal, there appears to be none to support inclusion of TX.

As @LB 15 says, worse it (& Electronic Charting) has introduced a Nintendo Navigator culture. These people will studiously select all the latest electronics, yet you won't find a paper chart, pair of binoculars or hand bearing compass etc on their boats unless compelled to do so.

Putting aside the question of it being used for tactical purposes (or even non-tactical of follow the leader), the Special Regs mandating installation, then any RC that makes its activation mandatory, are in effect reinforcing that Nintendo Navigator culture.

Maybe the RC see it as a means to increasing fleet numbers by attracting that Nintendo crowd? They could be given numbers with the prefix 'N" to warn you to stay clear :-)

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16 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

I've done the occasional race, yes.

And even you know that the fastest boat doesn't always win.

In the context of ais being a tactical tool, you get boatspeed and heading. So you get to see if faster boats are sailing into more or less wind.

Doesn't take a Victorian to understand that sailing around boats stuck in a hole is advantageous.

 

So WOXI could see the two in front were slow  on AIS and so using secret nazi wind maps from the 2nd world war, sailed around them and on to victory. So Riddle me this - how did their AIS not transmitting show them were there was wind and better still - if their AIS was transmitting, would they not have seen that BJ and the Aircraft carrier were in a hole?

 

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

So WOXI could see the two in front were slow  on AIS and so using secret nazi wind maps from the 2nd world war, sailed around them and on to victory. So Riddle me this - how did their AIS not transmitting show them were there was wind and better still - if their AIS was transmitting, would they not have seen that BJ and the Aircraft carrier were in a hole?

 

So you don't look up the course to see the other boats getting knocked and headed?

 

If oats ais was transmitting,  other boats would have seen their course change and covered.

What would you do in either situation?

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We were crossing about 2nm ahead of a bulk carrier at night around Newcastle in a Coffs race a few years ago in a small boat, he was doing 7kn we were doing 15, he was on the radio telling us to take his stern, it was bloody good to have the AIS to paint a clear picture of what was happening and although we didn’t do as he asked I’m sure he was happy he could see what we were doing also. 

I agree that racing is better if your every move isn’t being shared with the fleet but it’s not just the fleet who benefits from your AIS being on. 

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59 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

So you don't look up the course to see the other boats getting knocked and headed?

 

If oats ais was transmitting,  other boats would have seen their course change and covered.

What would you do in either situation?

Make that "would" into a "could" and you have the argument in a nutshell.

Oats had the ability to see what was happening to the opposition and react.  By not transmitting she denied the opposition that same ability.

In it's self that is an "ain't that sad" issue.

It only becomes a problem when you are compelled to transmit the data just like everyone else & for whatever reason you don't.

It then becomes a major issue when you don't (and so far no-one has claimed Oats did),  declare this failure and accept any penalty imposed.

It really starts to smell when you then make claims that it was not mandatory to transmit & later that you were transmitting,  just really quietly, & later still that you had a technical issue which you can prove,  but never do (well not so far anyway).

The RC buggered up by lodging an invalid protest & hopefully have learned their lesson.  The IJ did what it had to do, so no issue here. Hopefully the Oats brains trust & PR people have learned their lesson too.

Personally I am probably slightly in favour of running AIS on Tx and happy to go either way,  (only on this issue not in my other preferences!),  but if the SIs demand Tx EVERYONE MUST transmit no option.

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9 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Bit like complaining to the Ed about 'Name calling' hey cupcake.

Oh gosh and there I go again. I am so sorry for hurting your feelings mate. I hope you can move on one day.

Actually LB the only thing that generally offends me is people telling lies about me which you seem to do on a regular basis. Fortunately in the the big scheme of things that says more about you than it does about me.

 

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18 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Make that "would" into a "could" and you have the argument in a nutshell.

Oats had the ability to see what was happening to the opposition and react.  By not transmitting she denied the opposition that same ability.

In it's self that is an "ain't that sad" issue.

It only becomes a problem when you are compelled to transmit the data just like everyone else & for whatever reason you don't.

It then becomes a major issue when you don't (and so far no-one has claimed Oats did),  declare this failure and accept any penalty imposed.

It really starts to smell when you then make claims that it was not mandatory to transmit & later that you were transmitting,  just really quietly, & later still that you had a technical issue which you can prove,  but never do (well not so far anyway).

The RC buggered up by lodging an invalid protest & hopefully have learned their lesson.  The IJ did what it had to do, so no issue here. Hopefully the Oats brains trust & PR people have learned their lesson too.

Personally I am probably slightly in favour of running AIS on Tx and happy to go either way,  (only on this issue not in my other preferences!),  but if the SIs demand Tx EVERYONE MUST transmit no option.

Tubby, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

For whatever reason Xoxi was not transmitting and that put her in breach of the rules. They and the Yot Master head of safety and all things seamenlike refuse to accept that simple premise.

Sadly that has meant we have had to endure Hopalong's endless monologues on how AIS played no part in the Moon landings.

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I personally love AIS when racing, for one major fundamental reason. It makes it so much more interesting. 

I get to stick my head up and tell the poor crew perched on the rail getting soaked for hours on end that their trimming efforts just dragged (insert favorite frenemy) back in by half a nm, meanwhile the guys storming for the beach are getting headed, and we're doing good, keep up the good work. 

The crew always get a lift from hearing what is happening around them, playing the 'who's that light' at night is much more fun when you can nip downstairs and check.

This all goes a long way to keeping everyone motivated through the boring patches, and best of all it makes the sport more interesting for the whole crew.

And I've had my share of ribbing from other boats laughing at an obvious issue they watched unfold on AIS (don't ask) . 

It's good for the sport in my eyes. And anything that attracts people to racing, I'm a fan. If we all comply to Tx and RX, it makes for a much more rewarding investment of my and my crews time.

In the last Gladstone, we were using AIS at night to tick off the boats on our 'hit list' as we were passing them....:ph34r:. Is it wrong to admit it was great fun??

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7 hours ago, hoppy said:

I'm going to stay active here at least until it surpasses the 2018 S2H thread 

So that'll be about another 24 hours or so at the going rate? Honestly can't believe it's gone on for so long already.

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7 minutes ago, albanyguy said:

So that'll be about another 24 hours or so at the going rate? Honestly can't believe it's gone on for so long already.

Precisely, we are still here because no one from the Oats side of the fence has answered the most basic questions sitting out there...

Were you transmitting.

If not why not

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42 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Richards_(surfer)

 

Actually, according to Wikipedia,  he's very well respected by his peers.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Richards_(surfer)

 

Actually, according to Wikipedia,  he's very well respected by his peers.

 

:wacko:

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Oy veh, 

Reliance on Electronic gadgets will never replace seamanship. The USN Pacific fleet has demonstrated that all to often of late, with literally millions of dollars of electronics either not functional, not attended to or simply ignored because the bridge and CIC were not communicating. And they have demonstrated the costs in lives and dollars to swanning about in high traffic with their AIS not transmitting in a Stealth'd hull. One could perhaps compare the return off a Burke Class and an Maxi, neither is likely to trip the comic book alarm on the tanker's bridge as the commercial traffic depends on their tools to do the looking. 

Requiring that reasonably reliable, commercially available technology be used as an adjunct for increased safety is certainly prudent, and perhaps requisite to avoid a charge of negligence on behalf of the OA. Automobiles are gaining the sensors that detect imminent collisions and apply brakes etc, though the litigation on those and the other aspects of autonomous vehicles will be "interesting"  as the moral hazard is similar to airbags making people less cautious. 

No need to worry about intent. It's as hard to prove in this case as in defamation. A simple test of was the boat visible, to it's competitors would be easily made. The tracker data tells you the time/position when there should have been AIS in reasonable range. Require a screen shot, or a log file or log book at change of watch every 4 hrs or so, and you will have proof that any given vessel was visibly compliant or not. You can put an AIS receiver on the turning marks or make gates and record all traffic past it much like the RFID used in marathons, to remove the issues of cheating. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

....As for over reliance on screens and proper watch keeping practise going to shit there is a pretty good argument that recreational vessels at least up to a certain size should never have been given access to AIS in the first place.

 

10 hours ago, Se7en said:

What is that pretty good argument then?

In my cruising boat I have AIS TX on all the time, but don't have RX integrated to the chart plotter at the helm, just down below and normally off. It gives me a buzz when we are bumbling along and see that some container ship has changed course 10 NM away to avoid us. (I have seen the same racing, not that the big boats know or care that the fleet of boats are in a race, I suspect that they just want to keep away from a large group of numpties changing direction at random)

I also like that now I get calls on the radio referencing our boat by name, rather than "Vessel at 38 51.11s 145 45.25 E what are your intentions". It takes me too long to work out if they are trying to talk to me...

I did like watching another boat in a race one dark night wandering around in circles north of Flinders Island. Warmed the cockles of my heart it did.

Mate I said it was a "pretty good argument", not one that would guarantee a win :-)

Any way I will give it a go, noting it is pretty hard for me to say on one hand I love AIS, just like you, but then argue it's downside outside it becoming a tactical/non-tactical tool beyond its intended purpose. By the way this stuff is @LB 15 day job so I'm sure he will step in and correct or God forbid say I'm blowing it out of my arse. @hoppy opinion probably everyone can do without.

Imagine "Safety at Sea" to be a "layer cake". At the bottom is the foundation being a vessel fit for purpose and overlaid by having a capable and seaman like solid crew. That two layer foundation is the "highest common denominator". If that goes to shit it doesn't matter how many layers go on top of it, the cake is pet food.

Then the layers start getting added to the "Safety at Sea Cake". They can be personal safety gear like PFD's and harnesses, liferafts, proper communication gear etc. They are all there in case the foundation and or its crew get overwhelmed by something outside their individual or collective control.

However with time and technological change new things are invented. Some are simply replacement things like a spruce mast becomes aluminium and budget permitting carbon. Signal flags and carrier pigeons become VHF/HF Radio and Satellite Comms. A Safety & Survival Course and a Minimum Stability Number enhances the two part foundation to the cake.

Their common denominator is they don't add or take away a layer, they simply give the same layer a different descriptor. That process makes the cake stronger. It in fact might survive a fall when being pulled out of the fridge.

Then there is technolical change that doesn't add a descriptor to an existing layer of this strong cake. It adds a completely new layer. For instance in the navigation department and altering the core foundation of the cake is the GPS enabled electronic chart. The navigator sitting in the "capable and seaman like solid crew" layer of the cake no longer needs to keep a constant DR exercise going. He no longer needs to know how to plot a relative position using a hand bearing compass and log or not religiously watch a depth sounder. He simply looks at a screen to tell him that and more.

The Navigator and or Skipper instead of looking out the window at cloud formation and any alteration to sea state to determine weather changes up ahead and whether evasive action ot even opportunity in a race is on the cards, now simply examines a weather download grib file as if it is the Holy Grail. If close to the coast going on the Internet to a selected weather observation point is an immediate substitute to looking out the window. Even AIS data coming from race boats in column along the course provides insight to what can be expected in the timing of new weather.

What the above is not "enhancement" of the  "capable and seaman like solid crew" layer of the cake but a new layer that actually makes the foundation 'weaker". Of course an emediate counter is the information modern electronics provide is enhanced safety because of its inbuilt accuracy. That is impossible to disagree with save for one thing. It is based on electronics never failing and there will always be a reliable power supply on hand in a sailboat. Good luck with that and I will use Mark Richards own words to reinforce my point about the foundation to the cake being weaked;

"People need to understand that one small $2 component can take a whole system down. That is a component failure - not cheating."

"We are all victims of technology, now. Just think what happens when our mobile phones go down, everything stops working. It is a shame, but I think we have got to get back to the basic of keeping it simple, and having alternative options throughout a race."

Putting aside the fact it seems a $2 Splitter was installed not the $500 one I have seen on WOXI, he is saying "we have to get back to the basic" so as designated Skipper and responsible for the lives of twenty or so souls on board. A role by responsibility and definition under International Maritime Law he can by training and experience literally step into the shoes of any specialist on board and take over their function, albeit to a limited extent, in the case of an incident.

My guess is Mark Richards without an electronic aid would have no idea of their position if Vila (Navigator) fell off the back in some incident, but being able to read a compass would say to find Australia we need to go west. Richards as Skipper is obviously not alone as an example of where the foundations of the "Safety at Sea" cake are being eroded. He is however on account of his position in offshore sailing a Poster Child for the "Nintendo Navigator" culture. 

Anyway @Se7en  to put AIS under the same blow torch and my "pretty good argument" you have requested of me suggesting that recreational Skippers are now "Nintendo Navigators" on account of being afforded access to AIS Class B. For those stupid cunts who don't read upthread Class A AIS was made mandatory for both installation and operation by the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) in concert with others for large commercial vessels many moons ago. 

AIS Class A is powerfull and operates using a finite amount of slots. It is dynamic in terms of a vessels movement. In other words any change of speed and direction accelerates the interval it transmits that data. That data includes not just full vessel details but it's next port of call.

Everything going swimmingly until someone decides let's give recreational or smaller non SOLAS vessels access to the same technology. This might be because more beacons were being enabled with AIS transponders. The canals of Europe becoming so crowded now resembling Dodgem Cars. As an aside many of those canals are now mandatory AIS activated zones. What ever the reason for introducing AIS Class B I don't know.

So they came up with AIS Class B for non SOLAS vessels. Much lower powered to not clutter the system. Having no slot priority to the extent even obtaining a slot could be bumped out and not get a AIS TX out for 30 seconds or more. @shaggybaxter you mentioned upthread you losing TX thinking it your GPS position was at fault. My guess is you may have been bumped out of the slot you had by a Class A enabled vessel in range? Anyway system while a bit flakey, recreational users lined up to buy it like hot cakes.

World Sailing's response was this looks like pretty good gear we should put it into our Offshore Regs which they did as a mandatory gear inclusion a few years ago, but not activation, leaving RO's to decide that. That safety/collision avoidance decision was made despite AIS being not compulsory on all vessels and even those where it is, they can turn off Class B RX to reduce clutter on their Class A transceivers.

Well some RO's did respond to WS decision. I forget the timing with Cat 0 and the RO of the VG deciding SH RTW boats should not just have Class B, but Class A Transceivers with there inbuilt capacity over Class B. The RO of the crewed VOR made Class B activation mandatory. The cat was now out of the bag where every RO of an offshore race had to at least consider inclusion of mandatory AIS activation or not. 

So we have here by World Sailing's decision not a reinforcement of the foundation of the cake but a degrading of it. Another layer added that makes the cake collapse it seems. For instance two celebrated examples in the last year where technology failed and arguably the cakes foundation of "capable and seaman like solid crew" is potentially under question.

1. At night and going close to 10 metres per  second. No AIS TX from a fishing vessel therefore effectively rendering a onboard working AIS system useless. Being triple headed and going quickly made any watch keeping a challenge for the lee bow side when weight on the rail in a race boat is the natural priority. With no criticism implied or otherwise that race boat was Vestas this time last year and one person was killed.

The "highest common denominator" being seamanship and AIS reliance over traditional watch keeping standards and whether Vestas was at fault or not was never investigated, nor any penalty applied by the RC, other than the incident see them drop two legs rebuilding the boat. The next leg they dropped their mast. Some in the sailing world called that Karma.

2. An IMOCA 60 quicker than even me, is SH approaching an Island. In fact the Finish line in a trans ocean event and the skipper is fucked, but in first place celebrating the fact he is in front of the world's best. On board is every thing technological known to man including a AIS Class A Transceiver checked by the RC before being allowed to go to the Start line as being operational full time as mandated. However the "lowest common denominator' proved to be his undoing. A wrist alarm clock with a shock feature ran out of battery and there was no static AIS transponder that side of the island. He then ran into that island.

That of course was Alex Thomson on Hugo Boss in the RtR just finished, arguably the best funded sailing person in world history save for the Irishman in a Cockle challenging the Vikings as having discovered America centuries before Columbus. Yet this superstar of the sport runs into a fucking Island??? God give me strength. New contender for the Nintendo Navigator of the year??

Alex very generously in regard to his competitors (that some elsewhere come to mind having no knowledge of that concept) took a few placings hit from the RC for having to extract his boat off the island using his motor. Interestingly the sailing world lamented over the fact of his fucking watch battery, not the fact he let technology overtake the foundations of that cake called "Safety at Sea"

Anyway AIS Class B is out of the bag. It's mass market appeal leads straight to stuff like the AIS enabled PLB. As @TUBBY points out up thread, virtually guaranteed to be a mandatory inclusion with and above 406 EPIRB PLB''s. Another layer yet added again  to the cake. Instead of not being appropriately diciplined to not falling overboard being the foundation of the "Safety at Sea" cake, we have another cake layer courtesy of technology to save fuckwits who stumble overboard at sea.

How long before the fucking cake collapses in a heap?

Now @Se7en this is the close to my argument you regard as flakey. There is an argument that offshore sailing has got so professional that everyone is happy to overlook the failings of a Skippers responsibility in terms of onboard expertise and they just swear a lot at the start and not much else. Some may say that is just "modern sport". 

So that reminds me of @LB 15 saying upthread be stood up and said he celebrated Australia Day acknowledging the achievements of Jack Brabham, Evonne Goolagong and Mark Richards/WOXI etc. I know Evonne is a tad on the non-reflective side but have no idea whether she strung her own rackets. Jack on the other hand while his engines were built by Repco knew every cog, and over and above he building the rest of his cars himself. Bit spooky maybe but I love a story with a circular ending. "Black Jack" is Jack Brabham's nickname coined by the owner a petrol head.

So to a modern day Aust corollary to Jack would be the F1 driving genius Daniel Ricciardo. Daniel however needs a SatNav to find the race course and when he gets there only needs to be told the colour of the car he is he jumps in and whether he goes clockwise or anticlockwise around the track. If it goes to shit he just pulls into the pitlane.

As for LB's Mark Richards inclusion on his list, he and Ricciardo are a mirror image right down to names, but last t