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2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI


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Cruising Yacht Club of Australia Commodore Paul Billingham explains the protest lodged by the race committee against Wild Oats XI over the yachts Automatic Identification System.

quote : case to answer : unquote .

https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/national/protest-against-sydney-to-hobart-winner-wild-oats-xi-explained/video/57b40c3ddaeb213b30bfa88a125d976c

no answer has been provided .

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In loving memory of Clark and Daw We welcome this evening Mr Richard the skipper of the winning power boat. Hello Brian. Mr Richard, may we call you Dick? Sure Brian, most

If Matt Allen as President of AS has any balls he should put Harburg/Bradford and Oatley/Richards in a room and read them the riot act. Harburg for not protesting but having a cry on national TV and O

Ok I am now caught up on this thread. Yes I went live - first actually - with the news direct from Shipwright Arms where WOXI were having lunch in one room, and BJ in the other. Was the best place to

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34 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

Again no.   If the RC had deemed an SI breach on their own, all would have been kosher. 

The IJ ruled that the RC only learned of a possible breach via an interested party and as such they should have protested.   

No subsequent learnings from the RC was submissible as a protest by them.

^^^ This and the RC's claims of not knowing until advised by interested party is horseshit, leaving IJ with only one ruling. 

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https://www.sail-world.com/news/213416/S2H-Protest-against-Wild-Oats-XI-is-dismissed

Rolex Sydney Hobart: Protest against Wild Oats XI is dismissed

Sail-World NZ spoke to a Wild Oats XI crew member after the protest who advised that the AIS system was working but was at a much weakened strength as a result of technical issues on board following a media interview before the start of the race, but after a check had been made to ensure the AIS was working and at at full strength.

The race relay vessel also advised two other competitors that their AIS was not working mid-race yet did not advise Wild Oats XI of issues with their AIS, and the crew were unaware of any fault until after the boat arrived in Hobart.

Conclusions:

The Race Committee’s investigation and subsequent protest arose from the report from the owner of Black Jack, a competitor in the Race and therefore a person with a conflict of interest within the meaning of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

The Race Committee’s investigation was prudent, however in these circumstances, for the protest to be valid under the Racing Rules of Sailing, a competitor with information about a potential rule breach must lodge the protest.

Rules that apply: RRS60.2 (a), Definitions – Conflict of Interest.

Decision: Protest Invalid.

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Coming from the guy who said the International Jury should take advice from Sailing Anarchy Forums... 

So what what do you have to backup your claim that the RC withdrew the protest?

Or was that a lie too?

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Just now, random said:

So what what do you have to backup your claim that the RC withdrew the protest?

Or was that a lie too?

Conclusions:

The Race Committee’s investigation and subsequent protest arose from the report from the owner of Black Jack, a competitor in the Race and therefore a person with a conflict of interest within the meaning of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

The Race Committee’s investigation was prudent, however in these circumstances, for the protest to be valid under the Racing Rules of Sailing, a competitor with information about a potential rule breach must lodge the protest.

Rules that apply: RRS60.2 (a), Definitions – Conflict of Interest.

Decision: Protest Invalid.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/213416/S2H-Protest-against-Wild-Oats-XI-is-dismissed

Rolex Sydney Hobart: Protest against Wild Oats XI is dismissed

Sail-World NZ spoke to a Wild Oats XI crew member after the protest who advised that the AIS system was working but was at a much weakened strength as a result of technical issues on board following a media interview before the start of the race, but after a check had been made to ensure the AIS was working and at at full strength.

The race relay vessel also advised two other competitors that their AIS was not working mid-race yet did not advise Wild Oats XI of issues with their AIS, and the crew were unaware of any fault until after the boat arrived in Hobart.

Conclusions:

The Race Committee’s investigation and subsequent protest arose from the report from the owner of Black Jack, a competitor in the Race and therefore a person with a conflict of interest within the meaning of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

The Race Committee’s investigation was prudent, however in these circumstances, for the protest to be valid under the Racing Rules of Sailing, a competitor with information about a potential rule breach must lodge the protest.

Rules that apply: RRS60.2 (a), Definitions – Conflict of Interest.

Decision: Protest Invalid.

Wow. Reading really is fundamental.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Decision: Protest Invalid.

no one is arguing any different .

however an invalid protest DOES NOT address the situation .

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/213416/S2H-Protest-against-Wild-Oats-XI-is-dismissed

Rolex Sydney Hobart: Protest against Wild Oats XI is dismissed

Sail-World NZ spoke to a Wild Oats XI crew member after the protest who advised that the AIS system was working but was at a much weakened strength as a result of technical issues on board following a media interview before the start of the race, but after a check had been made to ensure the AIS was working and at at full strength.

The race relay vessel also advised two other competitors that their AIS was not working mid-race yet did not advise Wild Oats XI of issues with their AIS, and the crew were unaware of any fault until after the boat arrived in Hobart.

Conclusions:

The Race Committee’s investigation and subsequent protest arose from the report from the owner of Black Jack, a competitor in the Race and therefore a person with a conflict of interest within the meaning of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

The Race Committee’s investigation was prudent, however in these circumstances, for the protest to be valid under the Racing Rules of Sailing, a competitor with information about a potential rule breach must lodge the protest.

Rules that apply: RRS60.2 (a), Definitions – Conflict of Interest.

Decision: Protest Invalid.

Thanks that's that 

Can we put the tinfoil hats down and irrational bias away now time to stop the made up shit and enjoy an amazing race.

 

 

 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Conclusions:

The Race Committee’s investigation and subsequent protest arose from the report from the owner of Black Jack, a competitor in the Race and therefore a person with a conflict of interest within the meaning of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

The Race Committee’s investigation was prudent, however in these circumstances, for the protest to be valid under the Racing Rules of Sailing, a competitor with information about a potential rule breach must lodge the protest.

Rules that apply: RRS60.2 (a), Definitions – Conflict of Interest.

Decision: Protest Invalid.

So that does not say that they didn't switch of the AIS.

 

2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Sail-World NZ spoke to a Wild Oats XI crew member after the protest who

That's pretty cute, one post you cut and paste PC findings, the next you are quoting hearsay?

Make up you mind fan boy.

Nothing there to say that they did not switch off the AIS.  Got anything else?

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3 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Can we put the tinfoil hats down and irrational bias away now time to stop the made up shit and enjoy an amazing race.

No, fuck off.

This one has legs.

Edit: Looks like Oatley's have shelled out for a media hose-down campaign.  Like calling in the Wolfman in Pulp Fiction to clean up the mess.

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Just now, Liquid Assett NZ said:

No the result stands it's over you love this internet drama stuff there's no conspiracy Oats were faster end of story 

Why is the social media campaign using NZ badged accounts?  Does that look more legit ... like not Australian?

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5 minutes ago, random said:

So that does not say that they didn't switch of the AIS.

 

That's pretty cute, one post you cut and paste PC findings, the next you are quoting hearsay?

Make up you mind fan boy.

Nothing there to say that they did not switch off the AIS.  Got anything else?

First time ever I've agreed with Random.  This is getting weird. 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

""If the RC had of acted on advice from anyone other than a competitor, this forum even"

Yes.  The RC (ie short for the Race Committee) submitted a protest based on information gathered only as a result of a complaint given by what is called an interested party, ie. A competitor with a conflict of interest. 

The protest was deemed invalid for what I'm loosely going to call fruit of the poisonous tree. 

If the RC, in submitting their protest, had of acted on information from any other source: (this forum, my 3 year old daughter, your mouldy underwear) that was not an interested party, then the IJ (that is short for an International Jury) may have made a very different ruling. 

I Hope that clarifies things for you 

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5 minutes ago, random said:

 

Edit: Looks like Oatley's have shelled out for a media hose-down campaign.  Like calling in the Wolfman in Pulp Fiction to clean up the mess.

 

1 minute ago, random said:

Why is the social media campaign using NZ badged accounts?  Does that look more legit ... like not Australian?

Wow time for you to get away from the computer you're actually being paranoid

Chemtrailz bro 

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4 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Oats were faster end of story 

not if they didn't comply with the SI's ...................

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2 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

 

Wow time for you to get away from the computer you're actually being paranoid

Chemtrailz bro 

Just checked, you have been working the same patch as forourselves for about the same time.

He had a second one ripped and you appear with the same weasel shit.

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1 minute ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Get over it they were first across the line the protest was invalid its done 

means NOTHING unless the SI's were followed .

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I do find it quite surprising that people posting here, who one would assume have some experience of offshore sailboat racing, really don't seem to understand how huge is the advantage that one has being able to see your all your competitor's AIS tracks almost in real time when they are all unable to see yours.

Knowing the above, it must be a special kind of experience going up in front of all your competitors and walking off with first prize.

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1 hour ago, Mid said:

nice to see the IJ's still doing their best to rule any and all protests invalid .........................................

nothings changed .

Mid nothing could be further from the truth.They were fucked by the RC's bullshit evidence in Item #3 and left with no other conclusion to make than the one made.

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.
3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS

If BJ had submitted no report to the RC, leaving the RC with just the media storm and then the IJ with room to move, Team WOXI's jaws would be hanging around the same level now where they were this time last year. Begs the question if the RC insisted on a report from BJ to kill off the RC's own Protest?

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7 minutes ago, random said:

Yeah thought so.

Sorry but you need to get a grip. I'm just adding some much need balance and realism to this sick conversation. It's a yacht race, the fastest boat won, yes there were Ais issues but that doesn't automatically mean there is a sinister conspiracy at play. I enjoyed the race and think Oats deserves the win 

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Just now, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Sorry but you need to get a grip I'm just adding some much need balance and realism to this sick conversation it's a yacht race the fastest boat won yes there were Ais issues but that doesn't automatically mean there is a sinister conspiracy at play. I enjoyed the race and think Oats deserves the win 

You mean that you are both here posting weasel shit for WOXI and both starting here in 2012 and focusing on the Artemis thread is a complete 'coinkidink' right?

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mid nothing could be further from the truth.They were fucked by the RC's bullshit evidence in Item #3 and left with no other conclusion to make than the one made.

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.
3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS

If BJ had submitted no report to the RC, leaving the RC with just the media storm and then the IJ with room to move, Team WOXI's jaws would be hanging around the same level now where they were this time last year. Begs the question if the RC insisted on a report from BJ to kill off the RC's own Protest?

This "report" seems non standard.....

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Just now, Liquid Assett NZ said:
4 minutes ago, random said:

You mean that you are both here posting weasel shit for WOXI and both starting here in 2012 and focusing on the Artemis thread is a complete 'coinkidink' right?

Yes it is a coincidence you need your meds buddy 

image.png.1eeafc4e519b983bbba196e1459598ba.png

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19 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

..... it's a yacht race the fastest boat won yes there were Ais issues but that doesn't automatically mean there is a sinister conspiracy at play. I enjoyed the race and think Oats deserves the win 

Sorry but a yacht race is a little different from a drag strip race with cars and the "fastest boat" does not necessarily win. Yacht racing involves strategy and knowledge of wind directions and speeds. These can be deduced by observing competitor's AIS track information hence all sail boats transmitting AIS are continually giving this information to their rivals. Any boat in the same race and, for whatever reason, not transmitting his AIS data, can have a huge advantage since the wind information where he is sailing is denied to his rivals.

You may think Oats deserves the win. That is your prerogative.  There may well be no conspiracy.

But would you cheerfully walk up and collect first prize if you discovered after the race that your opponents had been disadvantaged in this way?

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Just now, random said:

The AIS records show that WOXI were not transmitting AIS.

The SI's say that it is mandatory to transmit.

WOXI wins the silver.  How does that work?

Ais issue nothing sinister there were heaps of issues Oats sailed better and crossed the line first there was a protest that was not valid really simple stuff all the conspiracy bullshit is you

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8 minutes ago, staysail said:

But would you cheerfully walk up and collect first prize if you discovered after the race that your opponents had been disadvantaged in this way?

No I would not,  But Richards was more than happy to!

tumblr_lesewbCi2J1qaqaiy.gif

image.png.2c36963db4e53df60fc3f38a52b3c737.png

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2 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Ais issue nothing sinister there were heaps of issues Oats sailed better and crossed the line first there was a protest that was not valid really simple stuff all the conspiracy bullshit is you

I really hate shills, they are bottom feeders of the worst kind.

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2 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Oats sailed better

better than who ?

 

competitors who did not have access to the same information ?

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3 minutes ago, staysail said:

Sorry but a yacht race is a little different from a drag strip race with cars and the "fastest boat" does not necessarily win. Yacht racing involves strategy and knowledge of wind directions and speeds. These can be deduced by observing competitor's AIS track information hence all sail boats transmitting AIS are continually giving this information to their rivals. Any boat in the same race and, for whatever reason, not transmitting his AIS data, can have a huge advantage since the wind information where he is sailing is denied to his rivals.

You may think Oats deserves the win. That is your prerogative.  There may well be no conspiracy.

But would you cheerfully walk up and collect first prize if you discovered after the race that your opponents had been disadvantaged in this way?

Thanks buddy I'm aware of yacht racing and what's involved.

If I thought the Ais was operating and I sailed a race 100% and we were all around each other all the way and we all still had tracker info yes I would accept the prize.

I do think Oats team deserved the win and I don't think there is a crazy conspiracy here. The other competitors didn't protest all this is is just internet dribble

I don't think the Ais was the winning of the race it's being overstated

Just my opinion

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8 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Thanks buddy I'm aware of yacht racing and what's involved.

If I thought the Ais was operating and I sailed a race 100% and we were all around each other all the way and we all still had tracker info yes I would accept the prize.

I do think Oats team deserved the win and I don't think there is a crazy conspiracy here. The other competitors didn't protest all this is is just internet dribble

I don't think the Ais was the winning of the race it's being overstated

Just my opinion

You are welcome to your opinion.

I remember competing in a race once when something similar happened. The highest profile boat "won" but in similar circumstances where clearly, most of the other competitors realised the boat which came first had not been fairly sailed. No one protested. Protests in our kind of racing were rare. The owner walked up and collected the first prize and the room was almost silent. The skipper of the boat which came second walked up for the runner up prize and was met with tumultuous applause.

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Wait, so if you cheat (allegedly)and win, you deserve to be hated, but if you cheat (allegedly) and lose, thats okay?

No.   If you cheat and lose, we chalk it up to Karma kicking your ass cause you had it coming...

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38 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

This "report" seems non standard.....

Facts Item#3 was written by Hans Christian Anderson that left IJ with no decision other than the one they made. Smellier than a old boot.

http://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/3438889/ccf29122018.pdf

35 minutes ago, VOA said:

Go on, I dare ya. 

I’ll hold your beer. 

I'm thinking about it.

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7 minutes ago, staysail said:

You are welcome to your opinion.

I remember competing in a race once when something similar happened. The highest profile boat "won" but in similar circumstances where clearly, most of the other competitors realised the boat which came first had not been fairly sailed. No one protested. Protests in our kind of racing were rare. The owner walked up and collected the first prize and the room was almost silent. The skipper of the boat which came second walked up for the runner up prize and was met with tumultuous applause.

Respect.

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3 minutes ago, staysail said:

You are welcome to your opinion.

I remember competing in a race once when something similar happened. The highest profile boat "won" but in similar circumstances where clearly, most of the other competitors realised the boat which came first had not been fairly sailed. No one protested. Protests in our kind of racing were rare. The owner walked up and collected the first prize and the room was almost silent. The skipper of the boat which came second walked up for the runner up prize and was met with tumultuous applause.

I get that. I don't think this race has a nasty sinister underbelly to it at all. Four boats battled hard all the way some phenomenal sailing. I'm just trying to add some balance to this crazy biased thread. Oats are a great team and sailed exremely well we should not publically slate them over a technicality. Sometimes getting all wound up over the internet is just ridiculous

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2 hours ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Cool so you're happy to say that

Bekking

Bannatyne

Nicholson

Witt

 

Are all Cheats who have no honour ? It's just a load of garbage 

If you want to discuss something these have done, create a separate thread. Right now, the topic is woxi, the current edition of the race. 

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8 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

I don't think this race has a nasty sinister underbelly to it at all.

If you honestly believe that you have a terrible illness involving mind effecting drugs, are a junkie,  not very bright or maybe all three.

The RC for this race has plumbed a new low driven by self interest with zero regard for Australian sailing, the views of the international sailing community and ironicaly a decision that will come back to haunt them down the track.

That is a fact.  

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16 minutes ago, Mid said:

The RC obtained evidence from it's own investigation that WOXI may have breached SI11.4

http://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/3438889/ccf29122018.pdf

and thanks to the IJ , we'll never know  , so this is the mess they have left our sport in .

 

Mid another reminder..get on the right page. This shit storm has nothing to do with the IJ. 

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14 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

I get that.

I don't think you do.

In a previous post you have stated that you would happily accept first prize in these circumstances. You justify this to yourself by saying "if I thought ....etc. etc." and by saying the others around you "had tracker info" (even though you must know that tracker data is vastly inferior to AIS data?) but you do not dispute that AIS data would have given you an unfair advantage over the other competitors. No one can ever know if that advantage was race-winning or insignificant, but it was there.

This thread and all the controversy would not exist had Woxi retired. Woxi would still have crossed the line first which I agree is no mean achievement, and the reputations of the skipper and the owner would have been enhanced.

How much do they really need the first prize?

How much do you need a prize? Is it worth having people justifiably question your sportsmanship?

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I have just seen some Press Releases distributed earlier today post ruling by the WOXI camp to assist the media, both sailing and mainstream write stuff. It is like one is reading Hitlers PR after conquering Poland.

Yep. By not retiring, their image is forever tainted. 

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So if this was a clear cut issue, why didn't all of the other supermaxis submit protests? Why only BJ? Carry on with the pitch forks and chrome Lewmar winch handles.

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9 minutes ago, TPG said:

So if this was a clear cut issue, why didn't all of the other supermaxis submit protests? Why only BJ? Carry on with the pitch forks and chrome Lewmar winch handles.

My only guess would be that BJ didn’t want to win the LH race from a protest. 

At the end of the day, big boy toys, dollars a big chunk of ego. Let them get on with it. 

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11 minutes ago, mad said:

My only guess would be that BJ didn’t want to win the LH race from a protest. 

At the end of the day, big boy toys, dollars a big chunk of ego. Let them get on with it. 

Didn't the owner of BJ make comments about it to the media? 

Let's be honest, lots of cries about this being a dark moment in the sport, but clearly nobody wants to step up against it? 

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17 minutes ago, mad said:

My only guess would be that BJ didn’t want to win the LH race from a protest. 

At the end of the day, big boy toys, dollars a big chunk of ego. Let them get on with it. 

Or maybe they thought they would retire when it all came clear. You know, sportsmanship and self governing and all. Boy, were they wrong.

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Just now, NORBowGirl said:

Or maybe they thought they would retire when it all came clear. 

..... and do the honourable thing??? :huh:

Apparently not, it seems Mr Richards has a different interpretation of rule book than others. 

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BJ's actions are not without reproach either. Making statements to the media and then not following up on them with a protest is part of what got us here. 

MR's idiotic comments didn't exactly help. There is some chance he had no idea, and his standard "rules don't apply to me" circuits cut in and he made a reflex response to the question without understanding the issue. No matter, it just lit the fire.

Once  lit - it was in the media, of the S2H Facebook page, and no doubt a few people would have  noticed it raging here, and it was pretty clear that something needed to be seen to be done. That is another part of where things didn't go well. 

From the point of view of the RS2H race, the outcome is the least worst possible. The RC were seen to do something, but it got bounced. No controversial DSQ, the mainstream media lose interest, and WOXI walks with the win. Easy. Where things get murky is how complicit the RC were in engineering things so that this was the outcome. They cannot be so ignorant of the rules not to know the protest would go nowhere given the way it was written.

IMHO, given an indication that at least one boat had failed to maintain AIS transmission, the RC should have gone looking across the fleet, and gathered together a protest for all boats that manifestly had breached the SIs. That would have stood the test of a single interested party, and would have been seen to be the right approach to enforcing a safety related SI. But they didn't do this. It would have played better in the media as well. 

Nor had they bothered to even consider how the SI was to be enforced or checked. I guess, naively believing that all the competitors were honourable.

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5 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Or maybe they thought they would retire when it all came clear. You know, sportsmanship and self governing and all. Boy, were they wrong.

When have clear cheaters EVER just up and retired? Look at the asshole in the US who's been banned from various J classes for carbon rudders and shit like that being out of compliance. 

The whole "let's be honorable" shit is cute and all but it's not reality.

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2 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

 

IMHO, given an indication that at least one boat had failed to maintain AIS transmission, the RC should have gone looking across the fleet, and gathered together a protest for all boats that manifestly had breached the SIs. That would have stood the test of a single interested party, and would have been seen to be the right approach to enforcing a safety related SI. But they didn't do this. It would have played better in the media as well. 

I honestly think this would have been a huge can of worms and flicking a bunch of boats would jeopardize entries in the future. Most probably would have been honest mistakes with a few nefarious boats. It would not have been pretty but it would have been fair.

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7 minutes ago, TPG said:

When have clear cheaters EVER just up and retired? Look at the asshole in the US who's been banned from various J classes for carbon rudders and shit like that being out of compliance. 

The whole "let's be honorable" shit is cute and all but it's not reality.

I have no idea what actually happened with their ais and cannot call them cheaters based on that. It’s the aftermath that stinks.

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1 minute ago, TPG said:

flicking a bunch of boats would jeopardize entries in the future

Which underlines the problem. Who does the RC serve? The answer is sadly that they serve the race. They have a conflict of interest. 

There is nothing to say that the boats protested would be flicked. The IJ is explicitly given the freedom to impose a lesser penalty. First time in the SI's, honest mistake, little or no advantage gained (for most). Maybe a token time penalty. Would serve to get the message across for next year, and all good.  Of course the time penalty might have been an hour. That might be inconsequential to 99% of the fleet. But not for at least one boat. So controversy still looms. 

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