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20 hours ago, Wess said:

Don't know Veeger.  Had only one claim in 4 decades and 100K nm covered an that was well done.  This will be somewhat more complex for them.  The electrical and mechanical stuff is fairly straight forward I gather.  As will be the money we spent to mitigate the problem until we could get her hauled and the haul out/splash etc...  Even the the hull repair in immediate vicinity of the exit seems like something they can understand.  But  when I want to do a survey and NDT of the hull over wider area and especially the beams and beam pocket near the exit point and then the complexity of a composite repair on a fairly complicated structure... lets just say its not your typical boat claim.  We shall see.  But she will be put right either way. 

So sorry man, I’ve been enjoying your enthusiasm for getting her so ready. Hope it goes well, the insurance company was good to us when a big monohull I sail on was struck. They replaced all the very dated electronics at new market prices.  We think the exit was through the shaft, having lost the max prop in 40’ of water and Chesapeake muck when we put it in reverse to take her over to the travel lift. Good luck and keep us posted. 

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20 hours ago, soma said:

Damn! Sorry Wess!

 

18 hours ago, samc99us said:

Second that, real shame! If it was in the storm I'm thinking of, there was very little/nothing to be done. Saturday the storms just kept popping up!!

 

34 minutes ago, Geese said:

So sorry man, I’ve been enjoying your enthusiasm for getting her so ready. Hope it goes well, the insurance company was good to us when a big monohull I sail on was struck. They replaced all the very dated electronics at new market prices.  We think the exit was through the shaft, having lost the max prop in 40’ of water and Chesapeake muck when we put it in reverse to take her over to the travel lift. Good luck and keep us posted. 

Thanks all.  We got a replacement (for the blown out) bilge pump wired in pretty quickly and then concentrated on plugging holes before we drained the batts. Did know what was or wasn't good on the batts and changing options as monitoring systems was blown out as well.  My wife was a real trooper helping to deal with all the crap in sweltering heat.  Boat got hauled yesterday and hopefully unfolded on stands today.  Electronic and rig I suspect will be straight forward in terms of insurance.  NDT on the hull might be an interesting talking point as the strike exit we knew of was near port side rear beam which has carbon.  Hoping its far enough away.  Some cosmetic tabbing (wire conduit tubes) blew off the hull n the immediate vicinity of the strike exit and its really intellectually interesting to see as what is left is as dry and brittle as a bone.  Like the resin all just vaporized.   My main goal at present is to get somebody there (even if insurance surveyor) to get moisture meter on hull and drill holes just below where we plugged stuff closed to let the core drain if any water trapped.  Was an interesting conversation convincing them that drilling holes can be mitigating damages. Gotta love insurance! Wait what they is a boat?  What kind of boat? A trimawhat?  Composite who?  LOL with luck we will be back in by Fall. Notice I didn't say what year.  Thank God we have friends with boats.  Problem is they all love to race and the wife AIN'T into that.  Gotta respect the Admiral.  Cheers.

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1 hour ago, samc99us said:

This one is interesting. It must’ve sold as Pipeline 3 in Hawaii for about $500k less then a year ago. They seem to have  put in a new motor, new Dacron sails, some my dyform standing rigging and are offering it for $900k

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10 hours ago, EarthBM said:

This one is interesting. It must’ve sold as Pipeline 3 in Hawaii for about $500k less then a year ago. They seem to have  put in a new motor, new Dacron sails, some my dyform standing rigging and are offering it for $900k

Don't forget the paint job! She is probably worth closer to $600k than $900k as the latter starts putting you into the low end Gunboat-esque market or new TS5 territory, so I expect the price to come down a great deal over time.

Gambit is somewhat heavy but also looks like a really nice world cruiser for the money, top notch maintenance etc. If you can sacrifice some performance and are comfortable with the layout I don't think she would be a bad choice at all.

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10 hours ago, EarthBM said:

This one is interesting. It must’ve sold as Pipeline 3 in Hawaii for about $500k less then a year ago. They seem to have  put in a new motor, new Dacron sails, some my dyform standing rigging and are offering it for $900k

That was Pipeline?  I thought the Hughes-Perry tri was a different tri than Pipeline.  Been too long since we looked.

 

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On 7/10/2019 at 4:41 AM, EarthBM said:

This one is interesting. It must’ve sold as Pipeline 3 in Hawaii for about $500k less then a year ago. They seem to have  put in a new motor, new Dacron sails, some my dyform standing rigging and are offering it for $900k

I remember that too, and it was for sale for a loooong time at $500k if i recall correctly so this new price seems like quite a gamble. You're right about the naming too, I think it was Pipeline 2. There's a video on Youtube from 2013 where they call her "Pipeline 2" and the uploader confirms she was renamed to Rosinante in the comments.

On 7/10/2019 at 3:26 PM, Wess said:

That was Pipeline?  I thought the Hughes-Perry tri was a different tri than Pipeline.  Been too long since we looked.

 

I think this is Pipeline 3: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/hughes-46-trimaran-3041120/
And I believe this is Pipeline 1: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/contour-2149010/

They've both been for sale a REALLY long time unless the ads just haven't been removed. I don't know anything about Pipe 3 except that she looks pretty neat with her new reverse bows. A gang of youths put up a sailing vlog from Pipe 1 on youtube and if I recall correctly there's a video where they have seawater up past their ankles. Might be part of the reason why she's a hard sell.

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2 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

That Contour 50 for $300k is very interesting.  Anyone know how they sail?

There's another one for $209k: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/contour-50-2954275/

I have no idea how they sail, Here's the youtube channel of the $300k one if you have some spare time, maybe you can tell from the videos if it's good or not: https://www.youtube.com/user/PipelineTrimaran/videos

 

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Looks good! Maybe you can tow the HYDROPTERE back to SF for Stephens buddy...

    Are you going to go to Honolulu to look at it? If so, drop in for a drink and a sail with my buddy George on the beach in Waikiki. He owes you one from last fall at your house.

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14 minutes ago, KC375 said:

...can you keep it dry?

It's a boat, what are the odds anything on there would get wet?

Joking aside, a used balsa cored boat is pretty scary, it's only a matter of time before some of it gets wet at some point... Then again it can be fixed but that's messy and not something I would want to worry about on a liveaboard (a bit different on a race boat).

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45 minutes ago, Wess said:

O.M.G.

That helm.  :wacko:

Man, I love that helm! A forward cockpit is (admittedly) stupid. A one-side-only bulkhead steering station sorta sucks on one tack, twin helms aft is a recipe for skin cancer. I love the centerline blister top. 

I started my sailing career on the Gold Coast charter cats in the VI and the centerline helm was great. You're part of the action, you can see on both tacks, all lines lead to one place so easy single-handing.

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2 minutes ago, soma said:

A forward cockpit is (admittedly) stupid. 

 

Blasphemy, coming from a Gunboat guy... I love the GC 'chariot' helm too but you are really stuck out in the sun there too. I used the standard chariot helm (hard to beat for the reasons you mention) on the GC 50 cruiser that I designed as my last boat while working there but then spent more than a year doing an 'extended seatrial' knocking around the Caribbean on it as skipper while the owner tried in vain to wrap up loose ends back at the ranch so we could head for the S Pacific. I saw the need for some sort of sailing bimini at the helm and scrounged a pair of SS side gate stanchions and mounted them up top and sewed my own 'seahood' of thing that was great but the owner thought I was a pussy for needing and wanting it. He said, 'My horse ain't got no bimini, the sun and rain are just there for a reason, and that's what a cowboy hat is for...'

    I would unlace my makeshift seahood and stow before he would show up at the boat just to stop the arguments. He did bring me a nice 10 gallon hat though one trip but I have never liked heavy hats on my head. I can use one of those spinnaker cloth sailing hats but even a Tilley is too much for me. 

    He later suffered from prostate cancer (horse saddle) and later melanoma from his decades as a working cowboy. 

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11 minutes ago, soma said:

Man, I love that helm! A forward cockpit is (admittedly) stupid. A one-side-only bulkhead steering station sorta sucks on one tack, twin helms aft is a recipe for skin cancer. I love the centerline blister top. 

I started my sailing career on the Gold Coast charter cats in the VI and the centerline helm was great. You're part of the action, you can see on both tacks, all lines lead to one place so easy single-handing.

I'm guessing you got more nm under belt than me but I still see some value in forward cockpits.

But that on the Schionning?  Even ignoring the aesthetics... I have this unnatural fear of having somebody trapped in a capsize.  One of our good friends once was.  That thing look like the last place in the world I would want to be!

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I saw the owner's post on cruisersforum.com - he's certainly eager to sell. :-)

The boat is on the wrong side of the planet for me, but I think it looks like good value for money. As practical as the central helm station is (I really liked it, when I sailed on an older Lerouge Freydis last week), this specific implementation unfortunately kills the row-away-factor for me. The second level of the bimini looks like it was tranplanted from an old school Crowther cat. I guess the boom had to be raised quite a bit as well.

Soma, are you still looking into the Catanas or have you put them to the side because of the bulkhead issue? The asking price of the 471 Plan B (that was mentioned somewhere upthread) has been reduced quite a bit since I last looked.

Paul

PS: That boat has 5 TVs on board. What is the world coming to?

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47 minutes ago, Airwick said:

It's a boat, what are the odds anything on there would get wet?

Joking aside, a used balsa cored boat is pretty scary, it's only a matter of time before some of it gets wet at some point... Then again it can be fixed but that's messy and not something I would want to worry about on a liveaboard (a bit different on a race boat).

I nearly bought a nonsuch (balsa sandwich hull and deck) that would have suited my needs at the time (ultra easy sailing, room for kids). It was well equipped, looked great, and the price was right. I asked around for the most meticulous demanding surveyor – wasn’t going to be scared away just wanted to know everything I was getting in to. Best $500 I ever spent. Water ingress around the saildrive, each through hull, all the deck fittings. He helped me understand free would be too much.

A year later I saw it in a yard with three quarters of the outer layer of the hull peeled to try to repair the sandwich. A year later I saw the pieces going into the a dumpster.

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15 minutes ago, Zonker said:

No, you are correct for hating balsa.

But look what's moored in front of her!!

Schionning-50-1-14.jpg 

I love that curved forward crossbeam but the abbreviated truss work is cute but seems to be so low as to not really add much. Still looks good to me and if it eliminates the Seagull Striker, so much the better. 

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6 minutes ago, soma said:

Am I wrong for hating balsa? Because this boat looks pretty good otherwise!

http://www.catamaransite.com/Schionning-50-catamaran-for-sale-1.html

Oh man, I've gone back and forth over that so many times, mainly because I'm head-over-heels in love with Schionnings and especially the Waterlines, and the majority of them are balsa-cored. You can read more about the Waterline 1480 as well as download some study plans etc here: http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/wl1480

The designer makes his case for Balsa vs Foam and Honeycomb in some of the newer study plans, scroll down to "Material Overview" (Page 18) in this PDF: https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/913e0809/files/uploaded/GForce1500CStudyPlans2015.pdf

To briefly sum it up he claims that because Balsa is stronger in compression as well as in shear loads for a given thickness ("13mm Balsa may be equivalent to 19mm foam"), the weight difference isn't as great as people first think since more foam core is required to compensate in shear and thicker FRP is required to compensate in compression. He also claims that foam absorbs more resin into it's "open cells" on the surface than balsa does. Lastly, he claims that foam usually requires more fairing compound to get a nice finish, adding yet more weight.

I'd love to hear your (or any other person experienced with composite hulls) input on this. The guy is obviously trying to sell his product but are his claims actually true? If so, if I were building a new boat or I knew the previous owner(s) of a boat were as meticulous as I'd be, I don't think I'd have a problem with balsa core. My reasoning is that if you know for a fact that all the perforations of the FRP skin are done properly with drilling out the core, filling with epoxy and then drilling again for the fastener, the balsa should never get wet and there shouldn't be any problems. However, if you don't know (or trust) the previous owners I'd echo what some other people have already said in here, balsa presents a potential risk in that it could be wet/rotten and need replacing.

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Am I wrong for hating balsa? Because this boat looks pretty good otherwise!

http://www.catamaransite.com/Schionning-50-catamaran-for-sale-1.html

Oh and for what it's worth, "Barrocka", another Waterline 1480 sold about a month ago with an asking price of ~550k AU$ (so around 380k US$) after not too long on the market. Don't know the actual sales price though. She's the one featured in most of the pictures on the "Schionningdesigns" link I put in the post above. She had a rotating carbon mast, drop-down outboards in wells in the hulls and a bunch of other neat features.
Here's a nice photo of her: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/c0/58/ccc0582abf1caa909251da0a2c3dbeba.jpg
And here's a nice video: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1551633018213822

 

There's another Waterline 1480 for sale in Australia that looks real nice but is asking a bit more money: https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/schionning-waterline-1480-catamaran/232357 
My biggest (and, really, only) gripes with it are the basically non-existent nav-station and the fact that it only seems to have one head.

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26 minutes ago, Tylo said:

To briefly sum it up he claims that because Balsa is stronger in compression as well as in shear loads for a given thickness ("13mm Balsa may be equivalent to 19mm foam"), the weight difference isn't as great as people first think since more foam core is required to compensate in shear and thicker FRP is required to compensate in compression. He also claims that foam absorbs more resin into it's "open cells" on the surface than balsa does. Lastly, he claims that foam usually requires more fairing compound to get a nice finish, adding yet more weight.

1. Yes, balsa is stronger in compression and shear than foam. But that doesn't matter because typical 80 kg/m3 foam is strong enough in both shear and compression for boat hulls and decks that you can use it instead of heavier balsa that is 120 or more. Usually composite boat structures are stiffness driven, so you can't use a thinner core of equal weight (balsa) instead of thicker but less dense foam, because you get too much deflection. 

2. No, thicker FRP is not required to compensate in compression. You can just use higher density foam in areas of high compression (like where a winch is bolted on). Generally boat structures are not driven by compression except local loads.

3. No, foam does no absorb more resin than balsa does. No way.

4. I don't understand the claim that foam requires more fairing compound than balsa. They are both smooth surfaces covered with a glass skin. Surely the glass skin smoothness matters more??

The reason some builders like balsa is that is about half the cost of foam. That's it. It's cheaper. For everything else it's not as good as foam.

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

1. Yes, balsa is stronger in compression and shear than foam. But that doesn't matter because typical 80 kg/m3 foam is strong enough in both shear and compression for boat hulls and decks that you can use it instead of heavier balsa that is 120 or more. Usually composite boat structures are stiffness driven, so you can't use a thinner core of equal weight (balsa) instead of thicker but less dense foam, because you get too much deflection. 

2. No, thicker FRP is not required to compensate in compression. You can just use higher density foam in areas of high compression (like where a winch is bolted on). Generally boat structures are not driven by compression except local loads.

3. No, foam does no absorb more resin than balsa does. No way.

4. I don't understand the claim that foam requires more fairing compound than balsa. They are both smooth surfaces covered with a glass skin. Surely the glass skin smoothness matters more??

The reason some builders like balsa is that is about half the cost of foam. That's it. It's cheaper. For everything else it's not as good as foam.

Thank you very much for the input, especially your first point gives great insight. He was indeed comparing 80 kg/m3 foam to 150 kg/m3 balsa. I assume the 150 kg/m3 balsa results in a stiffer laminate than 80 kg/m3 foam and he relies on the other points when he arrives at "similar laminate weights".

I think most of Schionning's designs are aimed at DIY builders with easy flat-panel construction that you can buy in pre-cut sheets of Balsa, though I don't see any reason why it couldn't be pre-cut from foam panels instead. Maybe balsa is easier to work with for amateur boat builders? Or maybe it just comes down to cost as you say. If he can convince people that the cheaper option is superior, surely that'll lead to more boats being built->more boats on the water->more floating advertisement for the Schionning brand.

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21 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

I’d check the claims about “carbon mast”. For one of the Waterlines mentioned here it meant “wood mast wrapped in carbon”

Interesting, I didn't know that. I assume you're talking about Barrocka. There is indeed a picture of the mast being faired and/or painted on among the build pics in the Waterline-gallery on the Schionning website. Still seems to work well though, perhaps just not as well as something made in an autoclave.

With regards to my other post, #426, I'm not even entirely sure that Talisker is a Waterline even though the ad claims it to be. Looking at the Schionning design comparison table (https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/913e0809/files/uploaded/DesignComparisonTableAsat20.2.2019V3.pdf) the Waterline 1480 should have a light displacement of around 7000kg and a payload of 2000kg. Last time Talisker was for sale, 3 years ago, she was listed at 10,000kg light displacement and the new ad only lists a "displacement" of 11,000kg.

Looking at it more closely the shape of the sterns, bows and trampolines remind me more of the Wilderness 1500X design by Schionning but according to the design comparison table it should have very similar displacement and payload figures to the Waterline 1480. I don't know what S/V Talisker is but it might be worth getting to the bottom of. Neither the 2016 ad nor the new one mentions it but maybe she was modified during the build-stage for increased load carrying capacity.

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I think the duflex construction is both strip planked style hulls (narrow strips of glass covered balsa) and larger flat panels of glass skins/balsa core

It's all about cost. 

You don't see any performance race boats at the top end built of balsa; it's too heavy. Sometimes heavily loaded structures have a balsa core but it's very unusual. 

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Many home builders don’t include their time in calculating the cost of a project (either because they enjoy the project or because they don’t think about opportunity cost).

If you zero out labour then cost difference between duflex and foam cored hulls becomes a MUCH bigger share of the project making the cheaper material an economically rational  choice. (a bit like why you find lower quality bananas on offer in banana growing areas..)

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What do you guys think of/know about the Outremer 55? I think they are mostly monolithic with plywood bulkheads and foam decks. Lots of internal structure. Long and skinny with the accommodations of a much smaller boat. Simplistic sail plan. I've seen YouTube clips of them sailing into the 20's, they seem to do well in the ARC and other rallies. I know Teora has done really well in Heineken in past years. 

Any known issues? Stories of failures?

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34 minutes ago, soma said:

What do you guys think of/know about the Outremer 55? I think they are mostly monolithic with plywood bulkheads and foam decks. Lots of internal structure. Long and skinny with the accommodations of a much smaller boat. Simplistic sail plan. I've seen YouTube clips of them sailing into the 20's, they seem to do well in the ARC and other rallies. I know Teora has done really well in Heineken in past years. 

Any known issues? Stories of failures?

I think the 55's are monolithic glass with vinylester below the waterline and then foam core+polyester for the rest. Not 100% sure though. Some 55's have done pretty serious ocean miles and not all in tradewind conditions. There's one for sale that supposedly was the first catamaran ever to reach Antarctica on an expedition in 2016. Also, from what I understand the "Outremer family" is a pretty tight-knit group with their own meetups and regattas and whatnot, so if you're into that kind of thing that's a bonus.

They come in "Standard" or "Light" trim, from what I understand the hulls are the same but the bridgedeck is 60 cm (~2 ft) wider on the "Standard", adding some more accommodation (and weight). I think a lot of the Lights came with single-side bulkhead mounted steering wheel which wouldn't be my preference.

Here's a pretty good write-up from owners of a 55 Standard where they list some key points of the boat as well as some stuff they really like: http://www.tikatravels.com/the-boat/

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Interesting they think the sweet spot for wind speed is 10-14 knots. I'd totally agree with that with our lightweight cat. No big seas; the boat just glides along quickly and efficiently. Our monohull friends were always looking for >15 and some needed 20 before they were truly happy. The world isn't that windy most of the time.

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These two videos really cracked me up. It speaks to the reality of cruising on a cat vs mono, and relative performance. I wasn't left loving the Barramundi (or the Amel) but it does offer some reality about the choice.   

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tylo said:

 There's one for sale that supposedly was the first catamaran ever to reach Antarctica on an expedition in 2016.

Sorry for the thread drift, but the first cat to Antarctica was Ice Cat (XS) crewed by Robin Chamberlain and Terry Travers... 1999

icecat-challenge-1-jpg.69153

icecat-challenge-2-jpg.69154

icecat-challenge-3-jpg.69155

icecat-challenge-4-jpg.69156

icecat-challenge-5-jpg.69157

icecat-challenge-6-jpg.69158

icecat-challenge-7-jpg.69159

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38 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

Sorry for the thread drift, but the first cat to Antarctica was Ice Cat (XS) crewed by Robin Chamberlain and Terry Travers... 1999

That was brilliant reading, thank you for that!
Shame on The Multihull Company though, they ought to know that stuff eh? Here's the listing I was quoting: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/outremer-55-std-3188195/

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4 hours ago, soma said:

Any known issues?

The only thing I have read about is that the really fat entry point on the bows is a bit of a handbrake when it goes in and also throws a lot of spray.

Some of the 50/55 have had bow extensions added that seem to help with that (and gives you a sacrificial bow too).

Here's an example: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/new-bows-for-outremer-50-55-a-80814.html

They are a bit more "spartan" than the more modern boats but I think of them as the reference for "performance-oriented cruiser cat" for many years. The one on the market also seem to be quite expensive, which probably wouldn't be the case if the quality wasn't there...

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2 hours ago, Airwick said:

The only thing I have read about is that the really fat entry point on the bows is a bit of a handbrake when it goes in and also throws a lot of spray.

Some of the 50/55 have had bow extensions added that seem to help with that (and gives you a sacrificial bow too).

Here's an example: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/new-bows-for-outremer-50-55-a-80814.html

Can really see the handbrake at work in the first half here: 

 

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I don't think it was discussed, but Duracore is end grain Balsa with Meranti veneers bonded to each face. It came in strips with finger joints at the ends to make joining full length strips easy. it had fore & aft stiffness to make building compound shapes easier and had some fore & aft strength as well. I think it's pretty good stuff, but don't know about longevity or relative weight. I spent time on Barrocka in Australia. I guess I'm not such a fan of Schonning designs, but maybe I just don't like overdone compound curves. I really don't know shit about this type of boat. There are some I like looking at more than others. I hope Soma finds a boat that does it for him. I found a production boat that I like a lot and I'll bet I'm as picky as he is, so maybe there's hope.

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@soma

What about aluminium boats? I know they come with their own maintenance quirks etc but I've read good things about Mumby cats.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2018/catamaran-mumby-48-3548647/

6500 kg at 48 ft (if true) has to be considered light and 11 knots top speed with 2x39hp engines also ought to be a good sign. It's not the most beautiful of boats in my opinion but that's in the eye of the beholder.

There's another one for sale that is a year older, US$32k cheaper and a little heavier but has lower engine hours and comes with 3 additional sails: 
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/mumby-48-fast-cruiser/235394

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@Tylo we need to exchange notes, since we all seem to be looking at the same type of boat. Unfortunately not a lot of those performance-cruiser multihulls in the Baltic...

The new boat is apparently unused. I guess there is a lot to invest, before it is cruise ready. Notice the small sail inventory and lack of bowsprite for example. I would rather get a tried and tested boat for the program.

The second on is Tim Mumby's current boat and appears to be much better equipped and "sailed in".  There is a third one on the market for around 328k USD if I remember correctly.

With the normal composite construction  I feel that I can fix most things that can hapen to the hull or the topsides myself. You can always carry a kilo of resin and some glass/carbon on the boat.  With an aluminium boat, do I need a big genset and an alumium welder onboard?

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https://www.offshorecatamarans.com/about-264027.html

What do folks think about putting together this kit boat? This company built Nice Pair, which has been well regarded by some on this forum. Several folks posting certainly have the skills and connections. I think they'd end up with a light, if simple, new boat for under the OP budget even if much of the work was subbed out. Maybe that last part is where I'm dreaming. 

48 feet,  set up the bridgedeck how you like, kids in one hull and parents in the other. I guess another problem is when a boat is set up how one likes, it runs the risk of getting weird and harder to sell. I like Pooka, the Newick open bridgedeck cat, but I understand why she was on the market so long.  I think Soma is relatively young, so maybe he just gets weird and sails her for decades with no worries of resale. 

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11 hours ago, Airwick said:

The only thing I have read about is that the really fat entry point on the bows is a bit of a handbrake when it goes in and also throws a lot of spray.

Some of the 50/55 have had bow extensions added that seem to help with that (and gives you a sacrificial bow too).

Here's an example: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/new-bows-for-outremer-50-55-a-80814.html

Yeah, I haven't yet broached the topic of new bows with my wife, but it'd be on my to-do list for sure. I hope she isn't reading this forum!

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44 minutes ago, soma said:

Yeah, I haven't yet broached the topic of new bows with my wife

This 50 footer here has nice sails AND already had a bow job (some old pictures are used, so scroll through to see the new bows): https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2000/outremer-50-light-2793208/?refSource=browse listing Too expensive for me, but within your 400k USD budget.

They have some youtube videos as well showing how the new bows slice through the water (can' remember the username though).

Paul

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1 hour ago, soma said:

Now I've got my Gunboat 90 on the E. Coast and my O55 in the Med. Just need something in the Pacific and I'll be all set. 

Steal Acquire the Looping 60 someone posted earlier that had an impossible seller? It's in French Polynesia somewhere.

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LOL. Zonker spelled out the balsa core issues succinctly...hire the best surveyor you can if going that route. Wet core on a PVC or Nomex boat is a lot less scary, but still a concern. The approach Outremer took with the 50/55 is a nice one, solid laminate below the waterline is a pretty big plus in my books! The seem like a reasonable compromise with the bow job. I wasn't too thrilled with the interior finis on the modern boats, but that was also probably a rushed boat show model.

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8 hours ago, Geese said:

https://www.offshorecatamarans.com/about-264027.html

What do folks think about putting together this kit boat? This company built Nice Pair, which has been well regarded by some on this forum. Several folks posting certainly have the skills and connections. I think they'd end up with a light, if simple, new boat for under the OP budget even if much of the work was subbed out. Maybe that last part is where I'm dreaming. 

48 feet,  set up the bridgedeck how you like, kids in one hull and parents in the other. I guess another problem is when a boat is set up how one likes, it runs the risk of getting weird and harder to sell. I like Pooka, the Newick open bridgedeck cat, but I understand why she was on the market so long.  I think Soma is relatively young, so maybe he just gets weird and sails her for decades with no worries of resale. 

I'd say dreaming a bit, especially if building in the U.S. Budget $100/hr for quality labor in the composites/boat building world. To that end, I was recently quoted ~30k to do a race bottom job on a 40 foot monohull...that's probably starting with a medium quality factory finish. I would figure double that on a cat. Just for the bottom job; cruising bottom maybe $40k on a cat. When you compute the labor hours for 4 guys working for a month (2 in the case of a cat) you see where those numbers come from.

Further, those "extra items" (rig, sail, engines) quickly come to $250k or more. So you are into it for more than a used Outremer 50/55 for a bare boat (minimal sail inventory, no interior) and probably 2-3 years of labor if its you and a buddy plus labor at peak times.

For some reference, I looked into building a F16 catamaran, no interior etc., sure heavy on the rigging (race boats always are) but all up my budget was $12k for hardware/materials; new you could have one for $18k at the time, so that was a no brainer.

For some other reference, working very much part time with lots of other commitments it took me about 2 years to fully convert my floating A-Cat to a foiler. Yes I did it right and that meant a lot of work but the other guys I know that have done it right have spent similar time (well into the 300 hour range, simply to move some daggerboards and fit some rudders). Point is, the blank hulls on that offshore catamarans page are probably the easiest part to build...beams alone are a huge project if done right with high modulus carbon or even standard carbon/glass.

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16 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I don't think it was discussed, but Duracore is end grain Balsa with Meranti veneers bonded to each face. It came in strips with finger joints at the ends to make joining full length strips easy. it had fore & aft stiffness to make building compound shapes easier and had some fore & aft strength as well. I think it's pretty good stuff, but don't know about longevity or relative weight. I spent time on Barrocka in Australia. I guess I'm not such a fan of Schonning designs, but maybe I just don't like overdone compound curves.

Ah, right. I forgot about Duracore. DuFLEX has uni glass on both sides of balsa core typically with the finger joints. You do need less male mold frames than strip planked foam.

https://duflex.com.au/products/strips/

Yes Schionning boats all have all those super compound curves on them. First time I stepped on a Wildcat 35 I nearly fell off the stern. No real deck edge; just an increasingly steep radius. Good for reducing windage but shitty for keeping people aboard. No bueno

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On 7/17/2019 at 4:53 AM, soma said:

What do you guys think of/know about the Outremer 55? I think they are mostly monolithic with plywood bulkheads and foam decks. Lots of internal structure. Long and skinny with the accommodations of a much smaller boat. Simplistic sail plan. I've seen YouTube clips of them sailing into the 20's, they seem to do well in the ARC and other rallies. I know Teora has done really well in Heineken in past years. 

Any known issues? Stories of failures?

Sailed from Tahiti to Fiji with one it was a 55 light extended with larger rig built for racing. Lovely boat but surprisingly not as quick as Spirit even in big breeze we sailed away from her. For the size the interior was nice but a little tight for 55ft.  When it came to build quality and reliability the boat was fantastic and the entire time we cruised with them ended up being over six years and during that time they had zero issues!

Your wariness of balsa comes with good reason. No matter what people say the reality is that it’s a sponge and if water can get it it’ll drink up as much as it can. I wouldn’t touch it especially if I didn’t have management over the build process. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great material but my experience with it says it’s not the best material to build a reliable and easily maintained structure to sail around the world in. 

Whats nice about the 55’s is they’re big, have long legs can make miles and can be sailed fast easily without having to overpower them, cheap to run, simple and reliable. Just do they have the volume you need?

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yes Schionning boats all have all those super compound curves on them. First time I stepped on a Wildcat 35 I nearly fell off the stern. No real deck edge; just an increasingly steep radius. Good for reducing windage but shitty for keeping people aboard. No bueno

Or for keeping on board anything you set down, sunglasses, coffee cup, paperback,...what seems like an obvious place to put something for a moment ...

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On 7/17/2019 at 1:36 AM, Tylo said:

@soma

What about aluminium boats? I know they come with their own maintenance quirks etc but I've read good things about Mumby cats.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2018/catamaran-mumby-48-3548647/

6500 kg at 48 ft (if true) has to be considered light and 11 knots top speed with 2x39hp engines also ought to be a good sign. It's not the most beautiful of boats in my opinion but that's in the eye of the beholder.

There's another one for sale that is a year older, US$32k cheaper and a little heavier but has lower engine hours and comes with 3 additional sails: 
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/mumby-48-fast-cruiser/235394

Proper interior!  (2nd link)

mumby_4.thumb.jpg.481d4bd19f5a4f9a2b3d10f5234144b2.jpg

mumby_5.thumb.jpg.50d957251c49ea1771fa9e640031be9d.jpg

mumby_6.thumb.jpg.22234d9a6b44738ccf7368359b91cbaf.jpg

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On 7/17/2019 at 2:20 AM, soma said:

Am I wrong for hating balsa? Because this boat looks pretty good otherwise!

http://www.catamaransite.com/Schionning-50-catamaran-for-sale-1.html

I think you've already moved on from this boat, but from my understanding of your plans, the thing that would deter me from this boat is the lack of a comfortable, social aft cockpit. The raised helm, which is cool, takes up most of the space. We found in good weather we spent a lot of time in the cockpit, both at anchor and underway.

 

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How about Stealth Catamarans? Have you had a look at these Soma (or anyone else for that matter)?

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/stealth-13-s-basically-a-new-boat-built-2016-sailed-600-miles/225595
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/stealth-12-6m-catamaran/231104

The performance is definitely there but I don't know how they fair in "cruise-ability". There's a Swedish family cruising Indonesia in a Stealth 13, here's their Youtube: 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1FWsFCw-e6Ixnno3WTmA_w

Their videos leave a bit to be desired (and they're all in Swedish I think) but you could shoot them a message maybe.

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

No boards on either of the last two. How important are they — assuming there are fixed stubs of some kind?

The Stealth cats have daggerboards, they're just flush with the hulls in the pictures. You can see them in some of the pics though, from the ad for the 13 I linked above: 

image.thumb.png.d870eaa78ef29c9e58a1b189ae50f9b2.png

 

And on another Stealth catamaran: 

image.png.b5574ea3f8a2206a90ef5d5f9f726f3f.png

 

The Looping doesn't, like most Looping designs. They seem to go pretty fast anyway due to how relatively light they are, and I think they're pretty high aspect ratio keels compared to what some other manufacturers use. That being said, they would surely have gone faster and pointed better with daggerboards, and any buyer would have to figure out if they could buy a keel cat and have that thought in the back of their head. If you buy a light catamaran with a small payload you do it for the performance surely and because you enjoy that, not because you enjoy leaving toys and amenities behind at the dock. It would make more sense to me at least to go "all the way" and get a cat with daggerboards too.

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  Rosinante/Pipeline might be available to purchase at this time, if someone was interested, cuz the delivery captain dropped the stick one day out of Hawaii on her way to the PNW! She's headed back to Hawaii as we speak.

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On 7/21/2019 at 6:16 AM, Tylo said:

How about Stealth Catamarans? Have you had a look at these Soma (or anyone else for that matter)?

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/stealth-13-s-basically-a-new-boat-built-2016-sailed-600-miles/225595
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/stealth-12-6m-catamaran/231104

The performance is definitely there but I don't know how they fair in "cruise-ability". There's a Swedish family cruising Indonesia in a Stealth 13, here's their Youtube: 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1FWsFCw-e6Ixnno3WTmA_w

Their videos leave a bit to be desired (and they're all in Swedish I think) but you could shoot them a message maybe.

We’ve just spent a few days here with that family in Lombok and they’re a great couple with an inspiring story.

I’ve known Alan and Roger for a few years now and they’re company Asia Catamarans based in Phuket builds some great boats. They’re fast and fun to sail and the racing versions are incredibly impressive. We raced three during the Kings Cup last year and were blown away by the performance. 

They are light with a rough displacement of around 3t and have some very cool ideas implemented into the designs. Well worth a look at as they’re well priced and have good interior volume. There’s one presently in the Caribbean called WOW. She’s did the race circuit there last season. She sailed there from Thailand via SA. 

The Swedish family cruising here have been onboard for a year now sailing from Thailand to Malaysia an onto Indonesia.  They were cruising with three kids onboard and were in love with the design and boat and had been having a great time.  They had nothing but positive comments about the boat and her performance.

Theres a few for sale presently and at a great price. Very simple and open plan layout and perfect for cruising tropical climates. I like the designs a lot as they’re simple with removable rudders with built in storage slots, outboard options that lift from wells in the hull and other neat features for ventilation and so on. 

BD08B85C-F118-4903-8892-B1C4BBBA477F.jpeg

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On 7/23/2019 at 8:44 AM, darth reapius said:

How big are you looking?

Those Stealths are very nice boats. I wouldn't look past them.

50-55’ seems like the sweet spot.

the 3t displacement (equivalent to 5t for a 50-55’ cat) seems very low. Like 2-3t below other real performance cruisers. How do they achieve this?

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52 minutes ago, longy said:

My client has an accepted offer (subject to inspection/survey after the cruise ends ) on this boat. Hope it is as advertised.

Which boat? The Stealth?

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19 hours ago, longy said:

Stealth 13 'Galeforce'

Oh, are they already done with their cruise?
There's another Stealth 13 for sale at US$390k (used to be $360k but somehow the price went UP after it didn't sell). Will you be able to tell us how much she sells for after the deal goes through, since it seems to be an "off-market sale"?

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So...we made a play for the Switch 51 in the Caribbean. "Simoust" has a cool backstory (original owners) and she feels very comfortable, but she's been thrashed in two hurricanes, has soggy balsa decks, has high engine hours, the deck paint was trashed, wood was starting to go, and electronics were ancient. Our estimation of her value just didn't match theirs. They were uninsured for Irma so they just spent +/-$200k out of pocket putting her back together. After putting that much into the boat I think they felt like they should get more back out of it. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. So we've closed the door on that option. She really reminded us of the Gunboat 62 that we worked on for 6 years, so she felt familiar, but I feel comfortable walking away. 

We also put in an offer and contracted a Catana 472, but I couldn't forgive the Nida Core bulkheads. Great rig plan, beautiful interior, great owner's cabin, Firefly batteries, but...engines were iffy, there'd been some structural repairs, and...Nida Core. Why Nida Core? I'd have traded 1/2 the furniture aboard for foam bulkheads. So that's a no-go. 

 

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Longy, sorry to hear you weren't able to come to terms on AVALON, I was always pretty partial to that boat. The guy who had her built is a dear friend of mine and the crazy story of how that project came together (and later fell apart) is a tragedy. 

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   As Soma relates above, some owners cannot separate maintenance costs from boat value. We could not agree on a price initially, then the engines & saildrives were replaced, and $60K cost (we had the actual invoices) became a 100K price increase to boat. We had a builder in Trinidad lined up to do the work, but our cost analysis said purchase price had to be around 100K to end up (after re-build) with a reasonably priced boat. SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL and fit ALL our requirements very well, but deep pockets we were not.

 

If you really want to know the details I still have pics & job lists from all the research into buying the boat

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1 hour ago, longy said:

   As Soma relates above, some owners cannot separate maintenance costs from boat value. We could not agree on a price initially, then the engines & saildrives were replaced, and $60K cost (we had the actual invoices) became a 100K price increase to boat. We had a builder in Trinidad lined up to do the work, but our cost analysis said purchase price had to be around 100K to end up (after re-build) with a reasonably priced boat. SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL and fit ALL our requirements very well, but deep pockets we were not.

 

If you really want to know the details I still have pics & job lists from all the research into buying the boat

Have you heard anything new about the Looping 60 "La Belle Venale" mentioned earlier in this thread? One of the adverts has said "Under sale" for quite some time. I recall you saying the seller was impossible to negotiate with. Such a shame, she seems like a really neat boat despite the wood core. I think I could forgive that if a really good survey was undertaken and showed no issues, and the price came down a notch or two.

 

Speaking of Looping-related news, I've been eyeing this one a bit lately: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/tropic-composit-looping-54-2823690/

Unfortunately it's also a mini-keel boat but they claim she's 6500 kg (~14300 lbs) lightship at 54 feet and foam/kevlar/epoxy construction which, if it's true, makes her very interesting indeed in my opinion.  I think she's been on the market for a long time though, i recall seeing the advert a while back at least. Perhaps it's because she's in Reunion and not everyone wants their first "real" offshore passage on a new-to-them boat to be either 1) around the cape of good hope, 2) along the coast of Somalia or 3) the "wrong way" across the Indian Ocean. Maybe a diagonal crossing towards the north-east to Thailand via the Maldives would be possible but that's a very, very long way. Most likely it's either because she's not in the condition advertised or the seller refuses to budge on the price which seems a little on the high side. Damn shame, and Reunion is a long way to travel just to be disappointed.

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2 hours ago, soma said:

We also put in an offer and contracted a Catana 472, but I couldn't forgive the Nida Core bulkheads. Great rig plan, beautiful interior, great owner's cabin, Firefly batteries, but...engines were iffy, there'd been some structural repairs, and...Nida Core. Why Nida Core? I'd have traded 1/2 the furniture aboard for foam bulkheads. So that's a no-go. 

Yeah, I saw your post on the nida-core thread about this.

I believe that some Catanas built in 2001-2002 had nida-core bulkheads. Also some 401s that had been built under contract by Sud Composite (the same builder that built the Switch 51, by the way). Lots of problems and friction between Sud Composite and and Catana, as I remember (long time ago).

Anyway, I'm sad you backed out of that 472. Hopefully you'll find something else soon.

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Looping 60 LBV - seller/broker pulled some serious shenanigans, and the boat is stored on Apataki island, which apparently only gets one (quick turn around) flt a week. Some one on this board reported seeing her on the hard in 2014, so her current condition is quite debatable. We tried hard to resolve the sale but I believe in the end the owner/builder just can't stand to sell her off. Woulda/coulda/shoulda been a fun trip to see her.

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@soma Here's an odd one: https://www.gaelnautisme.com/catamaran-aerofleet-48-occasion
It's very, very weird (those bulbous bows - WTF, as well as the very obvious stern extensions) but maybe knock a bit (or a lot) off the asking price and modify it into a slightly more family-friendly cruiser? It even looks like it's demount-able (adding to the weirdness).

Half-jokes aside, sorry to hear about the both the Switch and Catana deals falling through. "All in good time" and all that, even though I'm sure it doesn't feel like it for you at the moment.

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On 7/27/2019 at 12:57 AM, EarthBM said:

50-55’ seems like the sweet spot.

the 3t displacement (equivalent to 5t for a 50-55’ cat) seems very low. Like 2-3t below other real performance cruisers. How do they achieve this?

Ahh, they are a bit small for you being at the more 36-42' end of the range. They are a perfect size of boat to own and maintain though, huge space on-board for what they are, but eventually there isn't that overall space I am guessing for your goals.

How they achieve the weight? That is a mix of many things which Alan and Roger from Asia Catamarans have been working towards. The boats are the most efficient multi-hull I have ever seen for use of materials, they have removed absolutely everything unnecessary they can, they have worked out a very nice structure to the boats and have cut out every single area of waste. The shape of the boats really reduces material in many areas, they have the headroom where they need it and then have reduced the hulls and bridge-deck where it isn't required (I'm 6'1 and had plenty of room over my head, which is not something I can commonly say). 

They've trimmed A LOT of fat, stuff like finishes and pre-made items, they make almost everything in house, the boats are nice inside, but they aren't lined in timber and vinyl with tiled bathrooms, then they have outboards in wells, almost no stainless work, the davits are the back of the coach roof, simple dagger-board system, transom hung rudders with nice linkages. They are all glass and foam construction, with liberal use of carbon where it helps with weight/structure. No balsa, no honeycomb etc.

All of this has lead to a light boat with a light and modest rig meaning the boat doesn't need the structure of a similarly sized boat which has double the canvas and is double the weight again leading to it being a really light, simple, extremely efficient boat.

The boys there have built quite a few of them for other people AND a few for themselves, so as designers, builders and owners who are working on these things throughout the whole process they've really nutted out the most efficient boats of their kind. Which makes them big, roomy, light, modestly rigged, fast boats.

On 7/26/2019 at 4:09 PM, trispirit said:

We’ve just spent a few days here with that family in Lombok and they’re a great couple with an inspiring story.

I’ve known Alan and Roger for a few years now and they’re company Asia Catamarans based in Phuket builds some great boats. They’re fast and fun to sail and the racing versions are incredibly impressive. We raced three during the Kings Cup last year and were blown away by the performance. 

They are light with a rough displacement of around 3t and have some very cool ideas implemented into the designs. Well worth a look at as they’re well priced and have good interior volume. There’s one presently in the Caribbean called WOW. She’s did the race circuit there last season. She sailed there from Thailand via SA. 

The Swedish family cruising here have been onboard for a year now sailing from Thailand to Malaysia an onto Indonesia.  They were cruising with three kids onboard and were in love with the design and boat and had been having a great time.  They had nothing but positive comments about the boat and her performance.

Theres a few for sale presently and at a great price. Very simple and open plan layout and perfect for cruising tropical climates. I like the designs a lot as they’re simple with removable rudders with built in storage slots, outboard options that lift from wells in the hull and other neat features for ventilation and so on. 

To be speaking to their performance, that's really saying something, you live on a formula 40!

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3 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Ahh, they are a bit small for you being at the more 36-42' end of the range. They are a perfect size of boat to own and maintain though, huge space on-board for what they are, but eventually there isn't that overall space I am guessing for your goals.

How they achieve the weight