Jump to content

Which to Choose? - Colgate 26 or Beneteau First 24


sailorcolin

Recommended Posts

The club that I work at has a couple that is in the market for a new sailboat. They are torn between a new Colgate 26 ($45k) or the brand new Beneteau First 24 ($67k). They would like a boat that can do the following, Race, Booze Cruise, poke around Lake Norman, NC. Given that the Beneteau is new, there aren't any PHRF ratings out there to see where it will fall. The Colgate's has a PHRF around 162 from what I have researched. Also, the boat will be kept on a lift at the Yacht Club. 

So given, the info on the boats and the couple, which boat do you think could do the following better? 

  • Easy to sail
  • Race ready
  • Booze Cruise 
  • Lazy Sunday Sail
  • Quick-ness
  • Resale Value

yysw223737.jpgcolgate_26_photo.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO this is a no brainer if cost is not the defining factor.  The Colgate is a tank, it is under canvased (on purpose as it was designed as a sailing school trainer) does it even come with a spin?? Is there anything below that resembles bunks??  and, well, its heavy.  The bene = latest and greatest all purpose racer/cruiser.  Actually amazed that those 2 are both on their radar as they represent 2 drastically different boats built for totally opposite reasons.   Plus $45k for a Colgate???  WTF?

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, sailorcolin said:

Why? 

The First 24 with the sprit..  more sail options..  will have a lot better performance..  down below is more of a weekender+   the colgate is a day sailor  , you can throw the First onto a trailer , take it to the coast and be comfortable  bay hopping..

the colgate looks like the  hunter 17 plastic fantastic  ..

 

you haven't said how old the couple is, sailing experience.. kids .. etc..     so needs change with those..

Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^^^^ The last two posts. You couldn’t choose two more different boats to compare.

The Beneteau would be more demanding and more rewarding and much quicker if sailed well. It will be a bitch if they can’t handle it well enough.

Beneteau looks to have more accommodation down below, but the Colgate has a larger, more secure cockpit.

I would guess that the Beneteau 24 would be hard to sail to its PHRF. With a Colgate, they presumably will be racing against lots of other Colgate’s and friends?

Resale value would be safer with a Colgate, seems a lot cheaper and less depreciation, unless they win a lot of races in the Beneteau. How good/keen racers are they?

But they sound like a conservative couple, so, they should go with the Colgate, as much as my heart screams Beneteau (for me)....

PS: Get a good second hand one and avoid the depreciation.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, gullwinkle said:

Tripp 26

nice little boat , but   " This is not a cruising boat, but there are accommodations. "  

Personally I would look for a used Beneteau 235 that's been updated with the usual mods..    full head,  plenty of room down below and perfect for lake norman , plus you could pick a nice one for around  $9K 

Link to post
Share on other sites

God i hate the colgate 26. It has a purpose, but I don't think that purpose is private ownership. The damn thing is a heavy under canvassed pig that responds like a drunk raccoon hopped up on horse sedatives. If money is no object, go for the Bene. At least it looks fun to sail. The Tripp 26 is also not a bad option. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

^^^ love the description.. 

  hell the Bene 18 would even be a better option..    I wonder why on the colgate site they don't show a single pic of down below..

cause there aint none...  ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Big difference in pricing, but I’d agree the Bene is a better choice. The Colgate 26 was built to be a sail trainer and take a lot of abuse. The Bene F24 would be more fun to sail. In addition to all the reasons given above, I wouldn’t buy any boat with a conventional spinnaker over a sprit boat. Once you sail a sprit, you’ll never go back.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bene 24 looks like a downwind bias boat that wants to stretch its legs a bit. How suitable is this for a small inland lake for just messing around? I would look more for an all rounder that has no problem pointing high in light winds...where it's relatively easy for anybody to find the groove.

In this range one of the more interesting boats to come around lately, to me at least, would be the RS 21. 

There are other models in the RS line that might be more learner/sailing school friendly as well. 

https://www.rssailing.com/en/

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

^^^^^^ The last two posts. You couldn’t choose two more different boats to compare.

The Beneteau would be more demanding and more rewarding and much quicker if sailed well. It will be a bitch if they can’t handle it well enough.

Beneteau looks to have more accommodation down below, but the Colgate has a larger, more secure cockpit.

I would guess that the Beneteau 24 would be hard to sail to its PHRF. With a Colgate, they presumably will be racing against lots of other Colgate’s and friends? No other colgates on the lake. 

Resale value would be safer with a Colgate, seems a lot cheaper and less depreciation, unless they win a lot of races in the Beneteau. How good/keen racers are they? They are learning but plan to race and travel with the boat alot in the future. 

But they sound like a conservative couple, so, they should go with the Colgate, as much as my heart screams Beneteau (for me)....

PS: Get a good second hand one and avoid the depreciation.....

2

NOTES

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, sailorcolin said:

travel with the boat alot in the future. 

 

Then the F24  as they are probably want some sort of sleeping accommodations..   port - a potty    small camp stove..       with the colgate momma will have to hang her ass off the stern and she ain't going to be happy...

the learning curve between the two isn't that much different.

and the RS21,   I don't think there'd be much fun poking around Lake Norman in it..

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

But they sound like a conservative couple, so, they should go with the Colgate, as much as my heart screams Beneteau (for me)....

Will they stay conservative? I’d always rather buy a boat I could grow into over one that’s easy to sail at first. A conservative boat would become boring sooner, leading to buyers remorse, and confronting more $ to trade. Only the OP knows the couple and how to advise them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

Then the F24  as they are probably want some sort of sleeping accommodations..   port - a potty    small camp stove..       with the colgate momma will have to hang her ass off the stern and she ain't going to be happy...

the learning curve between the two isn't that much different.

and the RS21,   I don't think there'd be much fun poking around Lake Norman in it..

Travel as in trailer it to regattas and stay in a hotel. Not travel on the boat or sleep on the boat at the regattas 

Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, fufkin said:

The Bene 24 looks like a downwind bias boat that wants to stretch its legs a bit. How suitable is this for a small inland lake for just messing around? I would look more for an all rounder that has no problem pointing high in light winds...where it's relatively easy for anybody to find the groove.

In this range one of the more interesting boats to come around lately, to me at least, would be the RS 21. The RS is too small. They want to entertain a bit and booze cruise. 

There are other models in the RS line that might be more learner/sailing school friendly as well. looking at the others now

https://www.rssailing.com/en/

 

3
4

Notes

Link to post
Share on other sites

I grew up on Lake Norman and live in Charleston.  Where are there weekend PHRF regattas in NC, SC, GA,TN or VA they can travel to outside of Charleston Race Week?  I guess they could hit a NOOD in Annapolis of FL.  

Are they intending to sail shorthanded?  What is their sailing experience?  Don't want to throw them to the wolves.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I grew up on Lake Norman and live in Charleston.  Where are there weekend PHRF regattas in NC, SC, GA,TN or VA they can travel to outside of Charleston Race Week?  I guess they could hit a NOOD in Annapolis of FL.  

Are they intending to sail shorthanded?  What is their sailing experience?  Don't want to throw them to the wolves.

 

 

They mostly are going to be sailing on the lake. Eventually, they'd like to sail CRW, and head to a few other regattas throughout the year, maybe down to Miami too. They don't intend to sail shorthanded form what I know. They have a good bit of experience cruising and their son has a lot of regatta experience. Also, I most likely will be the skipper to start until the owners are more comfortable in regatta situations. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

So while I totally agree the First 24 will be quicker, I'm not sure I agree the Colgate is slow or under-canvassed.  After all, its rating compares favorably to a J-24, S2 7.9, Capri 25, Merit 25, Kirby 25, etc, etc.  

Also PHRF rating of the First 24 maybe harder to sail to on a light air lake where the opportunity to get up on a plane is less frequent.

There was (is?) a Colgate 26 named Easy Button that raced quite successfully on the Chesapeake Bay - based in Solomons Island as I recall, and raced at Southern Bay Race Week a bunch.  Should be able to find results for it, and a pretty stable rating as a result. 

First 24 will be easier to trailer/launch, but if there is a hoist at their club, certainly the C-26 can be trailered too.

Colgate 26 has a well deserved reputation for being rugged.  USNA has a fleet of them for training new plebes how to sail.  Its a better "first boat" for folks just learning to sail.  If they stick to sailing, likely they will end up selling either boat 5 or 6 years down the road for a bigger, different boat.

Both boats will serve the need...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, the Colgate is fine at what it was meant for.  Terrific daysailer--responsive, easy to rig, can be singlehanded, room in the safe, deep cockpit for everyone. Zero thruhulls, very low maintenance.  Quite competitive in PHRF.  It's a really good boat to learn on.  It has 4 'berths", but zero ventilation (other than the hatch) and no amenities.  Portopot fits under the bridgedeck. You could camp in it, but you would have to be into minimalist life.  Can be trailered, but getting the mast up and down takes some custom-made legs and quite a bit of time.  

I would think that the Bene would be challenging for newbies to learn on.  It's a lot more boat, of course.  If cost were no object, get the Bene.  Very cool boat.

The real question is, why the heck buy a new Colgate?  You can get a nicely maintained race-ready used Colgate for 25k, and that way you don't lose 35% of the value of the boat the moment you sign the bill of sale.  New boats are a bad idea for new sailors.  Save the 40k you didn't spend on the brand new Bene for boat #2, when you actually know what you like.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sailorcolin said:

They mostly are going to be sailing on the lake. Eventually, they'd like to sail CRW, and head to a few other regattas throughout the year, maybe down to Miami too. They don't intend to sail shorthanded form what I know. They have a good bit of experience cruising and their son has a lot of regatta experience. Also, I most likely will be the skipper to start until the owners are more comfortable in regatta situations. 

They need to look at an S.2 7.9.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone that would be seriously considering buying a brand new Colgate 26 for private use doesn't know enough about boats to be buying one. I mean, a beater for dicking around on the lake with, sure, why not?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fucket said:

Anyone that would be seriously considering buying a brand new Colgate 26 for private use doesn't know enough about boats to be buying one.

love your enthusiasm! that's the spirit! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sailorcolin said:

They mostly are going to be sailing on the lake. Eventually, they'd like to sail CRW, and head to a few other regattas throughout the year, maybe down to Miami too. They don't intend to sail shorthanded form what I know. They have a good bit of experience cruising and their son has a lot of regatta experience. Also, I most likely will be the skipper to start until the owners are more comfortable in regatta situations. 

like I said, knowing that up front.. ,   they want to race, get a race boat..  get  the Tripp..   or find an older Olson 25

Link to post
Share on other sites

S2 7.9 has quite a large presence on Lake Norman. Actually a few S2 7.9 regattas.  Boat is fast and stable enough, much more so than the Bene, for newbies. Retractable keel makes for easy launch/haul. A good one is much cheaper than the Bene 24 or Colgate.  Heavier though so would need an appropriate tow vehicle. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

construction comparison ?....how do the quality of build compare between the two ?

Aren't the Colgate boats built at Precision Boatworks? You know, in Bradenton?

http://www.precisionboatworks.com/customer_support/company.php

For those who don't know, I worked at a Precision dealership.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailed the Colgate 26 working for Offshore Sailing School. Put more hours and more abuse in a month than an owner may in a lifetime. Zero maintenance. 

A plus was the rudder. It is speced for a 30-footer. Bulletproof. Used to sail the boat at speed, turn hard up and then pull the tiller hard to windward, perpendicular across the boat. Absolute quick stop. I enjoyed the boat. Not so much the short wing keel version.

Dave Ellis

Link to post
Share on other sites

J-22. Used to stage their midwinter's at St. Pete Yacht Club. Steve Benjamin's crew forgot to center the masthead Windex one light air day. No problem. They got on one side hanging from the shroud. But after fixing the masthead the boat did not come up unless two guys got up on the keel. Not self righting.

That and the Lake Norman microburst where there were drownings attributed to the J-22s not recovering. 

All us coaches wanted J-22s when SPYC were shopping for 10 club boats. Got Sonars instead. A month later the Sonar became the Paralympic boat. Serindipidy...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn’t that impressed by the Colgates at UKSA. The 24 is hands down the better boat in my opinion. I’m not sure how price stacks up but the Bente 24 is another boat that might fit the bill

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, sailorcolin said:

They would like a boat that can do the following, Race, Booze Cruise, poke around Lake Norman, NC.

The two boats seem significantly different to me. If "poking around" is going to include overnighting, I'd rather sleep in a cabin than a sail locker.

If it's not, I'd rather have more cockpit. And also have the ability to banish the main trimmer to the back of the boat.

21 hours ago, sailorcolin said:

Given that the Beneteau is new, there aren't any PHRF ratings out there to see where it will fall.

That can be interesting. A friend bought a Multi 23 when they were new. Fun boat. But the rating was mostly based on sailing performance by the dealer and a few other really, really good sailors. Oh, and they did a few little things like fairing the centerboard trunk. Bigger sails. Nothing major. My friend has reasonable sailing skills. I was among his crew, and I'm more the answer to "how can we go today instead of not going" than "how can we find a rock star to win it" in my racing skills. So when we poked around with our open centerboard trunk and our training sails, we looked worse than we actually were based on PHRF.

As for resale value, it was kind of fun selling new Com-Pac Sun Cats in the early 2000's because there was basically no such thing as a used one. It was fun brokering used ones too, for the same reason. Selling a new Precision 23 when the brokerage had a nice ten year old sitting next to it? Not so fun.

So for a while, I'd guess that selling a used First 24 would be easier than selling a used Colgate because you're not up against nice older boats.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

Aren't the Colgate boats built at Precision Boatworks? You know, in Bradenton?

http://www.precisionboatworks.com/customer_support/company.php

For those who don't know, I worked at a Precision dealership.

weird. Lived in Bradenton through middle school/high school, had no idea. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

weird. Lived in Bradenton through middle school/high school, had no idea. 

My parents moved there in the 90's and Punta Gorda had a Precision dealership that had escaped my notice. I walked in to ask for a job in 2004 wondering what a Precision was, hoping I'd like it.

I've been to the factory many times to fetch new boats. Nice people and a long time in the business. Of course, I mostly dealt with a guy named Bart, whose job it was to be nice to the dealers who bought the boats and the salesmen who came to fetch them.

22 hours ago, d'ranger said:

Travel? One has a lifting keel, is lighter = much easier to travel with. 

 

13 hours ago, sailwriter said:

Sailed the Colgate 26 working for Offshore Sailing School. Put more hours and more abuse in a month than an owner may in a lifetime. Zero maintenance. 

A plus was the rudder. It is speced for a 30-footer. Bulletproof. Used to sail the boat at speed, turn hard up and then pull the tiller hard to windward, perpendicular across the boat. Absolute quick stop. I enjoyed the boat. Not so much the short wing keel version.

Dave Ellis

Nobody puts on a wing because they like it. They do it because they sail in Fort Myers, where Offshore is located.

And because, as d'ranger said, trailering.

I haven't launched a Colgate but have launched a Catalina 250 wing keel from a trailer. Bubble, bubble, said the exhaust of the boss' truck when that thing finally came free. If it drew another foot? We'd have been forced to do that thing where you release the trailer and let it down the ramp with a winch. This would have been a very unpopular choice at a ramp frequented by fishing boats.

Link to post
Share on other sites

ok, looked at lake norman throat wobbler mangrove club web..  why not a J/70...    first there's a fleet there to race against..  local knowledge to help with the boat... and there are plenty of nice used boats  for around $30k     regattas everywhere for 1d    no having to mess with phrf

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wing keel Colgate 26 was actually pretty quick on free legs. Lost upwind. Raced one in the St. Pete NOOD one year, five Colgates. Steve Colgate won with new sails. The instructor's sails we're the learn to sail issue. I came in second with the only wing version. But I did not know it until we pulled out on the hoist. So not phsyched out. 

Fort Myers and South Seas Resort had plenty of water; just stay inside the lines.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They seem to be missing a lot of worthy boats from their consideration. Just a few more: C&C 25 mk V, Laser 28, S2 7.9, Catalina Capri. You can buy nice, race-ready versions of any of these boats for less than $20k, usually with new(ish) sails and will likely be worth the same in 5 years as they are now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Beneteau 24 hands down

i have sailed the Seascape 24 and it’s a great little boat and very well made 

had it for a week in Biscayne Bay and it was a lot of fun

Can plane in about 12-14 knots true and feels very stable 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, commotion said:

Unfortunately for us Canucks the Bene 24 would be well past $100K landed here after exchange, taxes and our retaliatory duties thank to Trump.  

That sucks

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, sailwriter said:

I came in second with the only wing version. But I did not know it until we pulled out on the hoist. So not phsyched out. 

Fort Myers and South Seas Resort had plenty of water; just stay inside the lines.

Hah! Interesting thought that wings are faster if you don't know they are there!

I know where many of the shallow spots between Estero and Venice are. Built kind of a Braille chart in my head by hitting them. That foot of draft costs many square miles of fun water.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, commotion said:

Unfortunately for us Canucks the Bene 24 would be well past $100K landed here after exchange, taxes and our retaliatory duties thank to Trump.  

Didn't EU and Canada just pass CETA few years ago that got rid off most of the tariffs? I would think that 24s would still be built in Slovenia after the Beneteau bought them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

Hah! Interesting thought that wings are faster if you don't know they are there!

I know where many of the shallow spots between Estero and Venice are. Built kind of a Braille chart in my head by hitting them. That foot of draft costs many square miles of fun water.

Yes, and the shoals move. Worked out of South Seas Resort in 1985-6. Went back after 13 years at St. Pete Yacht Club. Sailing out there was much shouting from the other instructors.  The former channel had shoaled up.

Oh, and when a winged keel does run aground, good luck heeling to decrease draft!

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, sailwriter said:

Yes, and the shoals move. Worked out of South Seas Resort in 1985-6. Went back after 13 years at St. Pete Yacht Club. Sailing out there was much shouting from the other instructors.  The former channel had shoaled up.

Oh, and when a winged keel does run aground, good luck heeling to decrease draft!

Yeah, you have to hit them more frequently than that to stay current.

I've run a few wing keels aground and always spun off with no trouble, but never really stuck one in muck. I've left some shoes in the muck and heard of the same effect on wings but never experienced it.

From my list of things I know, but should not: heeling to decrease draft is one way to get a fin keel onto a flat from which it's hard to remove it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

for lake norman - get yourself a $4000 used lightning and tow the thing to the southern circuit once you get good at it.

thousands of them around, plenty of sailmakers with tuning guides, it only weighs 700 lbs and can probably get on a plane and stick with the boat you are drooling over.  AND you will have a minimum of 40 grand in your pocket compared to the cheapest boat you mentioned.

OR if they want to be able to sleep on it, get a corsair 242, leave it on the trailer with the mast up and drop it in the water and sail away.  If you put a big square top main on it you will stick with the boats you mentioned in all but the lightest winds and smoke them in anything over 10.  it rates around 90, sails flat, has trampolines to lounge on, and doesn't suck. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

OR if they want to be able to sleep on it, get a corsair 242, leave it on the trailer with the mast up and drop it in the water and sail away.  If you put a big square top main on it you will stick with the boats you mentioned in all but the lightest winds and smoke them in anything over 10.  it rates around 90, sails flat, has trampolines to lounge on, and doesn't suck. 

I like that it's a loose cannon who brings up boats with training wheels. :ph34r:

Mast-up is nice if you can get it but rare and comes with a waiting list in this part of the world.

It took 30 minutes to launch our F27 for day sailing, 40 if the bow sprit was going on for racing.

I loved them from the moment I first saw one at the Miami Boat Show and enjoyed owning it. My wife hated it and it got sent to Sweden.

spinrun162.jpg

Now I want an old 24, the kind with a centerboard for when I hit bottom.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Hi: I recently made the choice to purchase a Seascape 24 (Beneteau First 24) so trying to be responsive for this couple's needs, here's some few things to consider:

              1. The PH rating is likely to come out at about 102.  It will be a much faster and more exciting and much more fun boat to sail in every condition.  It is set up to be simple for beginners, but challenging to old timers. (I am 77 and have been sailing and racing small and large boats for 70 years. ) According to the designer Sam Manuard, the boat has been designed for up and downwind racing, whereas the Seascape 27 was designed more for reaching.  The seascape will plane in moderate winds. The rating of the  Colgate tells me that boat rarely planes. It will sail roughly as fast as a J-24.  If that's what they want they should get a J-24. There are thousands of them to race with.  

               2. They want to learn to sail and compete and go a lot of places with their boat.  The Seascape has a stout swing keel that comes fully up into the boat.  It will be much easier to trail; it will be easy to launch from a ramp as well as a hoist.  It draws 6'3" keel down, but if shallow lake sailing is a big part of the plan, there is a shallow draft version.

              3.  Because the Seascape keel is fully retractable the boat can weekend on Lakes, can be beached for picnics and daily family fun. The hull has been structured for that use.

               4.  I like that the sail area is scaleable. The's a jennaker that's large, and a Code 5 that's much smaller; these sails roller furl...There are also two jib sizes. Alot of lake sailing is in quite light conditions. The seascape will be a lively sail in light conditions. 

                Mark Twain is famously quoted as saying that watching a sailboat race is like watching the grass grow. That's because boats that sail as displacement boats in the water, are quite limited as to boat speed. But that all changed in recent years with the advent of modern materials that make much lighter planing and foiling boats possible.  I am keeping my Beneteau 40.7 for offshore sailing. But I purchased the Seascape 24 for the fun factor.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Kiwi Clipper said:

Hi: I recently made the choice to purchase a Seascape 24 (Beneteau First 24) so trying to be responsive for this couple's needs, here's some few things to consider:

              1. The PH rating is likely to come out at about 102.  It will be a much faster and more exciting and much more fun boat to sail in every condition.  It is set up to be simple for beginners, but challenging to old timers. (I am 77 and have been sailing and racing small and large boats for 70 years. ) According to the designer Sam Manuard, the boat has been designed for up and downwind racing, whereas the Seascape 27 was designed more for reaching.  The seascape will plane in moderate winds. The rating of the  Colgate tells me that boat rarely planes. It will sail roughly as fast as a J-24.  If that's what they want they should get a J-24. There are thousands of them to race with.  

               2. They want to learn to sail and compete and go a lot of places with their boat.  The Seascape has a stout swing keel that comes fully up into the boat.  It will be much easier to trail; it will be easy to launch from a ramp as well as a hoist.  It draws 6'3" keel down, but if shallow lake sailing is a big part of the plan, there is a shallow draft version.

              3.  Because the Seascape keel is fully retractable the boat can weekend on Lakes, can be beached for picnics and daily family fun. The hull has been structured for that use.

               4.  I like that the sail area is scaleable. The's a jennaker that's large, and a Code 5 that's much smaller; these sails roller furl...There are also two jib sizes. Alot of lake sailing is in quite light conditions. The seascape will be a lively sail in light conditions. 

                Mark Twain is famously quoted as saying that watching a sailboat race is like watching the grass grow. That's because boats that sail as displacement boats in the water, are quite limited as to boat speed. But that all changed in recent years with the advent of modern materials that make much lighter planing and foiling boats possible.  I am keeping my Beneteau 40.7 for offshore sailing. But I purchased the Seascape 24 for the fun factor.   

Kudos to Kiwi Clipper.  77 years young and still looking for fun and fast.

I echo the advice of another earlier poster who suggested a used J70 as an alternative to a Colgate 26. 

The OP mentioned wanting to go to Charleston Race Week. The J70s race on the inside circle. The Colgate 26 would be going outside to race PHRF and you would be one of very few open day sailors going out. I think you would be among last to the bar at end of day and in stiff weather would have an uncomfortable day.

J70 has steady resale. Colgates are an intermittent market at best. J70 can poke around lakes with furling jib but they are also lively to race on a Wednesday evening. Lots of regattas to attend. Lifting keel.   No accommodation so they can stay in the hotel.  Modernish conservative design.  Shame about the club foot but its an established success.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Scratch the Colgate from the list.  Better options than that boat for any purpose.  J70 is a good suggestion.  The Seascape/Bene is a really nice boat.  Probably not going to sail to its rating in light inland lake though.  Can't go wrong with either.  J70 fleet is much different than PHRF sailing.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 6 months later...

Bouncing this back to the top....

Any purchases made? I'm looking to sea trial a First/SS 24 in the next few weeks as, apart from rating, it ticks all boxes. Would love to hear owner experiences as there are plenty of dealer boats out there but not many vocal owners.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I received my Seascape 24 in March, named, Green Magic.  I posted a couple of videos of it on vimeo. See:https://vimeo.com/348523354

I love it. It's a lively fun boat to sail.  My GPS says 17.5 knots was our best and even at that it was responsive and controllable. You can see in the video, the boat catching up to waves and pushing through them.  There's an upwind video also, in waves of two to three feet.   It draws 6'7" with the swing keel down. Takes about 130 turns of the winch to raise the keel to the top position inside the trunk, but effort required is not difficult. 

It is not a lazy Sunday afternoon cruise except in light wind.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kiwi Clipper said:

I received my Seascape 24 in March, named, Green Magic.  I posted a couple of videos of it on vimeo. See:https://vimeo.com/348523354

I love it. It's a lively fun boat to sail.  My GPS says 17.5 knots was our best and even at that it was responsive and controllable. You can see in the video, the boat catching up to waves and pushing through them.  There's an upwind video also, in waves of two to three feet.   It draws 6'7" with the swing keel down. Takes about 130 turns of the winch to raise the keel to the top position inside the trunk, but effort required is not difficult. 

It is not a lazy Sunday afternoon cruise except in light wind.

 

Thanks, great to see another one in action, love to videos! :)

One of my concerns is depowering the main upwind in a blow, and maintaining a bit of forestay tension so you can point reasonably well. Speaking to the factory, their answer was to use lots of main cunningham and vang/kicker, but that's not going to help with forestay tension. Watching your upwind video it looks like the jib luff is quite a long way to leeward, and the main is doing very little (possibly also due to having little weight on the rail). 

While I would definitely be doing a lot of family cruising in mine, I'd also be racing her 1-2 times per week, hence wanting to see if they can race to their rating (IRC 1.035) or whether your only hope is downwind in a blow with no other sportboats out there!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bissona:  All reasonable concerns.We haven't raced this one yet, and in our area, we have  wind in the 15-25 knot range along with the seas that come with that wind. My videos were taken in an area that has the wind, but not the waves.   In fact, sailing high to weather, the main sheet would play a major role in keeping the headstay tight. So for racing you have to reef so you can keep the main sheet tight, otherwise too much headstay sag. The rig comes setup for two reefs.   BTW the jib in the videos is the number 2.  I have added a traveler to mine, and I've been corresponding with the company and in the off season they may be designing a running backstay rig.  The point would be  more rig stability off the wind, and also some ability to get headstay tension upwind.  In Europe they are sailing in typically much lighter breezes, so it's not an issue. Also in Europe Seascape has put in a huge effort to organize Seascape Classes in many regattas so that the boats are sailing with the simplified rig, but everyone using the same rig so it's ok for racing.  I think the point here is that the hull form of this boat is by far superior to any I have seen, and this will turn out to be a boat on which there are fine tunes for years to come.  One really important factor if you are cruising with family is the finish including even inside the storage spaces under the cockpit..  It's wonderful.  Even finished surfaces, no little unfinished unsanded fiberglass hooks that can hurt someone.   And cool, the ectronic package comes with solar installed to keep the battery charged, and a Sentinel Tracker that tracks every movement the boat makes and gives you a gpx file, and give you a notice on your cell phone every time the boat is unlocked, or moved.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2019 at 7:08 PM, Kiwi Clipper said:

Bissona:  All reasonable concerns.....  

I did note that the main had two reefs, obviously key to keeping her on her feet. We frequently race in 20+ kts though, so having a more powerful way of de-powering the main would be useful.

Would love to see some photos / brief video of your traveller setup if you have a moment. I can see the benefit of a simple vectran backstay on a flicker too, but I'd want to be sure the mast could take the load and the crane (assuming I'd have a more IRC-friendly main cut for me), something I'm sure the factory could confirm. Twin runners would be a step too far for me, great as they are for pointing, given the already compromised nature of the jib setup. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bissonia:   I have no prior experience with carbon spars, so I have no comment on the nature of the backstay because I have no idea what will work with the mast ... Just waiting to see what if anything they come up with. I put the traveler on the stern right in front of the rig they provided so the load will be at the same location of the boom. I used a Ronstan traveler that is designed to carry the load at deck level across six feet with no intermediate support points.  When I get all the work done and it looks nice, I can send a picture.   What I love the most about the boat is what you see in the videos...the stability and ease of operation even when you are getting really spectacular off wind acceleration. Even more than the Farr 38 I used to have, when you get some extra air, it accelerates instead of loading up.    I think when I have a trained crew we could carry that A-5 (the gold sail) in 25 knots of wind and keep the boat moving steadily about 20 knots...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks KC, all good info.

Will be very interesting to do a sea trial. Currently racing a Melges 24 and loving it, but slightly worried the F24 will feel a little leaden by comparison, particularly upwind. The specs say otherwise, so I'm sure I'm unnecessarily concerned!

Will continue to liaise with the factory and report back after a decent sail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good luck.   Where you are, I think seaworthiness is always going to be an issue. I don't think the boat is much like a Melges 24.  Especially if you are going to cruise with a family, the most competitive boats to these Seascapes are IMHO the Moore 24 and the Express 27. The big question for me was how this boat will behave in seas, and in particular what happens at the bow when you are surfing/planing faster than the waves.  There are a couple of really good videos of the seascape 27 (look for "Seascape Ride"} but none, except  mine for the Seascape 24.  When I get into more extreme conditions with my Go Pro,  I will post it.  But I think you have to approach this boat as a pioneer.  So far I think the hull form is right, and the construction is excellent. But the manufacturer's package contemplates mostly light/moderate air use.   I think we will need to develop equipment that lets these boats safely achieve their potential in more challenging conditions.       

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...
On 9/7/2019 at 5:51 AM, Kiwi Clipper said:

I received my Seascape 24 in March, named, Green Magic.  I posted a couple of videos of it on vimeo. See:https://vimeo.com/348523354

I love it. It's a lively fun boat to sail.  My GPS says 17.5 knots was our best and even at that it was responsive and controllable. You can see in the video, the boat catching up to waves and pushing through them.  There's an upwind video also, in waves of two to three feet.   It draws 6'7" with the swing keel down. Takes about 130 turns of the winch to raise the keel to the top position inside the trunk, but effort required is not difficult. 

It is not a lazy Sunday afternoon cruise except in light wind.

 

130 tuns to raise the keel?  The version of the manual I have (though labeled as preliminary) says only 17 turns needed....

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am in the market for a Seascape 24 now sold as First 24 under Beneteau's ownership.  The Seascape 14/18/24/27 are very popular in Europe but hard to come by in the US.   It would be great to see a First community here and have event around the county to go to.... I am mainly interested to use the 24 as a daysailer or solo/2-pers camper/cruiser for 2 or 3 day coastal overnights.  The 24 has a large comfortable cabin but no galley or head.  But there are great products around to provide a bit more comfort without adding to much bulk or weight.  Also, with the electricity package which include solar panel, etc... and a good instrument package, you can turn this into a nice, fast, compact and seaworthy yacht.  Note that there are better alternative to the  Raymarine/Tacktick package offered as an option.  B&G has speed, depth and wireless package that combined to their Vulcan 7 plotter will add great navigation data for around 2K.  You can also tie a Simrad tiller pilot for around $500.  For the minimalist, the 18 is a cost effective workable option for camper/cruisers wanting to go solo.  This kid has a cool First 18 video on the Seascape Facebook Page.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi: My boat is Green Magic, a SSCP 24, located on  the North Shore of Oahu,  Hawaii.  Many years ago I lived in DC and sailed on the Chesapeake Bay. The Seascapes would be wonderful on the Bay which usually has light air.  They have a lot of sail area and are pretty lively while most other boats are not moving much at all.  The 24 draws around 6'7" keel down so I would consider getting the short keel version that will get you up into the shallower waters of the river entrances and bays.    You can check out this video of downwind sailing... I also posted a companion upwind video also on vimeo. There's are also a lighter air video with a violet Code 5 sail, and a short video with the standard No. 1 jennaker, which is gold color, and set up for roller furling.

  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing you found a Seascape 24 all the way to Hawaii....  I just watched all your videos and thanks for those.  They are great because you let the camera roll long enough to get a good feel of how the boat moves under different points of sail and sails configurations. I am glad you showed the Code 5 underway. My dealer really had to dig up info. The boat specs sheet doesn’t even mention the sail area for the Code 5. Did you get it made or did it come with the boat? The one jeanneau sells as an option is 40m²/ 430sq.ft. and comes with a top down (I think) furler.  I am still a bit confused how best is this sail used.  Is that just a smaller code zero for beam or broad reaching when the wind is blowing too much for the Code zero or is that a flatter, smaller sail for beam or upwind reaching in light air when the boat small jib isn’t enough (sorry if that’s confusing, I am no sail expert...)

I am a bit torn by the shorter keel option... first it doesn’t come cheap ($2,500) and it adds 200lbs which will put a bit of a dent in light air performance and increase the trailer weight. It’s true that the Chesapeake has shallow waters but this is mainly around shores and points.  You are ok going up most rivers even if you draw 6 or 7 feet, then you can always fully retract the kill to motor to or close to shore and even though it’s not recommended by the manufacturer (liability), I am pretty sure that when in a bind, you can sail in light winds with the keel 1/3 up.

And thanks for all the great info you share on that thread. Very helpful!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Titi: These are not really "code" sails.  They are North Sails, gennakers, or more properly, asymetric spinnakers. They are noted as G-0 to G-5.  When I got the boat, I figured Seascape knew more about the boats than I did, so I just bought the recommended stuff.  My G-5 came as at extra charge, with the boat. You can find the sail types  at the North site:  https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/products/racing-asymmetric-spinnakers  Knowing now what I do, the gennaker that comes with the boat is a kind of all purpose reacher with a wire luff for roller furling.  It's obviously not a downwind sail. As a second asym, especially for racing, I would select the North G-2 for light to moderate downwind performance. I would have it made with half oz fabric so it will stay full in very light air.  The G-5 will work fine downwind in 20+ knots as long as you have a crew who knows what to do.   If you have to, get it directly from North.  BTW one option you should select is the stern steering cover.  Otherwise you are sure to lose your balance and step on the steering steering mechanism and break the tie rod end connectors. A lot of the guys have.          20190911_124820_DxO.thumb.jpg.0d93efb03f557f6f8355fb1f0a692646.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not recommend buying a brand new boat.

I think a used J70 would be more than enough for the lake of Norman. I was there last weekend (daughter racing first time on aJ88 (without me ; ( .

There are 4-5 other J70's for Wed night racing and if you add the U20 crowd there will be about a dozen to race against.

There is also a wealth of local knowledge and J peeps to help.  Contact John Kileen (DM me if you need his info).

Also, think resale value.

 

Sail Safe!

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kiwi Clipper said:

the gennaker that comes with the boat is a kind of all purpose reacher with a wire luff for roller furling.          

Is that the Code 5 option (AV H60) you're talking about or the 'Fractional Gennaker'? I only ask because I didn't notice any wire on the sea trial I did before xmas, and found it quite easy to rotate the standard asym kite to windward of the forestay in light airs.  

Overall I loved it but we have a local handicap system here that completely ruins any possibility of racing it (IRC + 5% for any planing hull). I'm still tempted for family sailing, so huge thanks for all of the info being posted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So Kiwi Clipper, I am still confused about the sail options...  Beneteau uses two different words to describe the largest sail (60m2) that is part of the standard package.  At the top of the specs sheet, they call it an Asymmetric Spinnaker but further down the specs sheet, they refer to it as Gennaker for the color option...  On all videos of the 24 I see, it looks like the sail is used for downwind sailing.  Isn't a gennaker like a Code Zero with upwind sailing angles possible?  What Beneteau refers as the Code 5 option seem to be a mid-size asymmetric spinnaker for sailing downwind above 20kt.  I followed the link to North Sails and all the sails featured on the page are for downwind sailing.  I am just curious to know what is the best sails option when sailing upwind in light air with that boat. 

Cheers,

Code North Sails Wind Angle.JPG

FIRST 24 Specs Sheet.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of items:   The terms are used a little bit loosely.  The Jennaker that comes with the boat can be sailed a little bit closer than ninety degrees to the wind.  It is fractional.  The headstay and two upper side stays all come to the same point considerably below the top of the mast. The mast is carbon, and designed with bigger sections to make it light.  I don't think it is strong enough to carry a mast top gennaker in very much wind.  I DO NOT RECOMMEND using a gennaker from the top of the mast except in the lightest of breezes.  Regarding races and ratings,  I got my boat thinking I would race it. I've been offshore racing for 50 years.  I obtained PH ratings from US Sailing for the Seascape 24 , which were:  93 general and 58 downwind.  It was ridiculous,  So I don't race it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SailRacer said:

I do not recommend buying a brand new boat.

I think a used J70 would be more than enough for the lake of Norman. I was there last weekend (daughter racing first time on aJ88 (without me ; ( .

There are 4-5 other J70's for Wed night racing and if you add the U20 crowd there will be about a dozen to race against.

There is also a wealth of local knowledge and J peeps to help.  Contact John Kileen (DM me if you need his info).

Also, think resale value.

 

Sail Safe!

you did notice that the original thread was over a year old...  so if they haven't bought a boat by now, they never will...

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Kiwi Clipper said:

Hi: My boat is Green Magic, a SSCP 24, located on  the North Shore of Oahu,  Hawaii.  Many years ago I lived in DC and sailed on the Chesapeake Bay. The Seascapes would be wonderful on the Bay which usually has light air.  They have a lot of sail area and are pretty lively while most other boats are not moving much at all.  The 24 draws around 6'7" keel down so I would consider getting the short keel version that will get you up into the shallower waters of the river entrances and bays.    You can check out this video of downwind sailing... I also posted a companion upwind video also on vimeo. There's are also a lighter air video with a violet Code 5 sail, and a short video with the standard No. 1 jennaker, which is gold color, and set up for roller furling.

  

 

Ahem, Kiwi, before anyone else notices you might want to pull that starboard fender on board and stow it.  You'll get a rash of shit if others spot it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/25/2020 at 5:12 PM, Titi said:

So Kiwi Clipper, I am still confused about the sail options...  Beneteau uses two different words to describe the largest sail (60m2) that is part of the standard package.  At the top of the specs sheet, they call it an Asymmetric Spinnaker but further down the specs sheet, they refer to it as Gennaker for the color option...  On all videos of the 24 I see, it looks like the sail is used for downwind sailing.  Isn't a gennaker like a Code Zero with upwind sailing angles possible?  What Beneteau refers as the Code 5 option seem to be a mid-size asymmetric spinnaker for sailing downwind above 20kt.  I followed the link to North Sails and all the sails featured on the page are for downwind sailing.  I am just curious to know what is the best sails option when sailing upwind in light air with that boat. 

Cheers,

Code North Sails Wind Angle.JPG

FIRST 24 Specs Sheet.pdf

Yes the terms are loose basically it’s a big kite and small kite, when it’s too windy or you can’t sail high enough with the big kite you use the smaller one. It would be worth checking if the smaller one on a furler meets the 75% mid girth measurement to measure as a spinnaker. How high you could sail depends on wind strength, how many crew on board, sea state, tide etc. Also sail selection charts are very different boat to boat and are only really ‘ideal situation’ charts. I would say for the seascape the big kite covers the A1-1.5-2 on your picture and the small kite covers the rest. Your North agent should be able to tell you what AWA the sails are designed for.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the difference between reaching and running sails has much more to do with the shape of the sails, than the size.  The luff of a reaching sail is  cut nearly straight ... also means it can be put onto a wire for roller furling.  A downwind sail is cut with more of a curved luff so the sail can project out to windward more, to get out from behind the mainsail.  But then of course you can't use a furling wire luff.  Among the four video s I posted on vimeo, one is in fairly heavy conditions with the gold colored standard reacher.  One is in much lighter conditions with the lilac colored A-5.  Both are more reaching cuts.  From the videos you can see the hull form does create a   lot of stability even with a relatively large sail area.  But because there is so much sail area compared to other boats, it's important if you are going to be in  anything but light air, to have experienced hands to trim the sail and steer the boat, or some serious wipeouts could result.  I agree the sails are unique to each boat. But in North America, the North Sails Reps don't have sufficient experience with the boat to actually know.  So getting the boat with the one asym that comes with it, and getting some experience with it before getting other sails, is probably a good idea. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The main difference between our S2 7.9's and the boats discussed above is that 

the 7.9's have pretty good room down below (5' 10" headroom), with a head even !

It makes a comfortable near shore cruiser for two or three people. 

And for their age, they are quick - dominate our local race scene. 

Thanks for all the informative posts above. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looked at S-2 7.9 Stats.  Looks like a great boat, available used, so a lot less expensive, and  especially a great choice for a person in an area where there is an active fleet of similar boats of racing is one of your goals.  It is not at all comparable to the Seascape 24. It is essentially a displacement boat which will be limited in speed to the traditional hull speed formula.  In this, it shares to some extent, sailing characteristics of the Colgate 26.  IMHO it would be a safer boat off shore.

        In contrast, the seascape boats are much lighter with much faster sail area/weight and length/weight  ratios.  The hull shape is designed to let them easily plane (reaching and running),  and to transition to planing easily, and they do.  They have quite flat and wide aft sections which make planing easier, and also give them relatively great stability for a light boat, just sitting at the dock, and when sailing. (They are much more stable, by way of example, than a Melges 24 with which they share many performance characteristics.) The PH ratings spell the difference:  The S-2 7.9 comes in at about 170 --- whereas my SSCP 24 PH rating is 93 overall and 58 for offwind races. In other words, two minutes a mile faster, off the wind.  The contrast is even greater in planing conditions...at least 12 to 15, but less in light winds when they do not plane. The SSCP boats must be actively sailed.  Especially in seas, they will pound going to windward unless the helmsman keeps the boat heeling about 12 degrees or more. And to weather in bigger waves, you have to pick your way through the waves. But if you do, they are faster to weather.  There are no American fleets. PH and other ratings will make racing the boats a challenge in average conditions because the ratings also reflect their explosive potential in windier off wind conditions.  Like all new boats they are much more expensive.  I love my SSCP 24 and wouldn't trade it because it is always a livelier sail than the more traditiona boats, and I love the high performance potential.  But this is written to try to give a balanced view ... what you get, and what you give up. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2019 at 7:32 AM, Upp3 said:

Didn't EU and Canada just pass CETA few years ago that got rid off most of the tariffs? I would think that 24s would still be built in Slovenia after the Beneteau bought them.

May well be but I'm not aware of any Beneteau dealers in Canadaa

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/25/2020 at 1:50 PM, SailRacer said:

Hey, Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

I think they bought a used J88 anyway and have their 16 year old kid sailing the shit out of it .

 

Sail Safe!

kind of a step up from the other two boats...   looks like a nice choice

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

The main difference between our S2 7.9's and the boats discussed above is that 

the 7.9's have pretty good room down below (5' 10" headroom), with a head even !

It makes a comfortable near shore cruiser for two or three people. 

And for their age, they are quick - dominate our local race scene. 

Thanks for all the informative posts above. 

Class web site says headroom in a 7.9 is 5’5”.  Having raced on the half dozen at my club I will confirm that number

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Kiwi Clipper said:

They are built in Sovenia. Mine was shipped directly from there to Hawaii.  The tarriff was about $1400 which was actually covered in the purchase price.

That's a great price for shipping to Hawai...  I am being quoted by my Beneteau dealer $7,122 for a First 18 shipped to Annapolis, MD (1090 for the 3 x transport cradles, $1,570 for packing the container and $4,462 for shipping the container :(

Link to post
Share on other sites

After Beneteau purchased the boats, they repriced them, lower.  The US price I paid to Seascape with a lot of extras was just over $90k.  But they paid the shipping packaging and importing costs.  Once I received the boat I was happy I had paid it.  And once I started sailing the boat I was happier yet.   The finish was really nice,  all the design ideas were well executed.  But mainly the hull shape and sailing characteristics make it a really fun and pretty safe and stable boat to sail for coastal and inland waters. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

Class web site says headroom in a 7.9 is 5’5”.  Having raced on the half dozen at my club I will confirm that number

I stand corrected. Thanks. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...