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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfgAc7AeeFg

 

 

I have to admit that I’m a little disappointed: “We`re getting very close to her maximum design loads” and “we pressed it as hard as we can” in combination with an achieved maximum speed of 18 knots is way behind my expectations.

Pushed hard, there must have been a save and constant “2” as the first digit. I´m sorry to say that in the aftermath I´m very glad to not have ordered one.

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3 hours ago, Trinity said:

I have to admit that I’m a little disappointed: “We`re getting very close to her maximum design loads” and “we pressed it as hard as we can” in combination with an achieved maximum speed of 18 knots is way behind my expectations.

Pushed hard, there must have been a save and constant “2” as the first digit. I´m sorry to say that in the aftermath I´m very glad to not have ordered one.

I think they had a lot of people on board (max design load) and not a whole lot of wind to work with.  So I think it'll do something with a "2" in front in the right conditions in racing trim.  But, as with all corsairs, not a pure race machine-family friendly fun.  

 

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I was a little surprised when I watched the video to see how pressed the leeward float is. I noticed that none of the crew were hiking on the windward float. To my eye the boat “looks” heavy and the floats, although seem to have a nice shape, “ appear” to lack buoyancy . I don’t think this boat will by flying the main hull. Just casual observations from watching one vid. 

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OK Maybe I spoke too soon. After watching the longer 10 min vid I can see the boat looks much better. Maybe she has a tad too much dihedral. That can be a good thing in light air, not so good in heavy air. Looking forward to seeing more. 

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3 hours ago, MultiThom said:

I think they had a lot of people on board (max design load) and not a whole lot of wind to work with.  So I think it'll do something with a "2" in front in the right conditions in racing trim.  But, as with all corsairs, not a pure race machine-family friendly fun.  

 

Well, they said they testet in different conditions / configurations. I did not understand "max design load" as payload, but as maximum stress by pushing the boat do the limit. 18 knots with maximum payload would indeed be acceptable.
 

32 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

I was a little surprised when I watched the video to see how pressed the leeward float is. I noticed that none of the crew were hiking on the windward float. To my eye the boat “looks” heavy and the floats, although seem to have a nice shape, “ appear” to lack buoyancy . I don’t think this boat will by flying the main hull. Just casual observations from watching one vid. 

I dont think the boat is designed to fly the hull, though in the video is said, that it kind of did. And IF the boat was realy packed to maximum payload the lack of buoyancy would be somewhat understandable. 
 

 

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  • 2 months later...
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  • 3 weeks later...

These two got a 880 to sail around for 6 months and are planning to do a review and probably show the boat in multiple sailing conditions. I'm seriously considering this boat. It would be my first boat. This thread has given me a lot to think. Thanks!

 

 

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26 minutes ago, mambi said:

These two got a 880 to sail around for 6 months and are planning to do a review and probably show the boat in multiple sailing conditions. I'm seriously considering this boat. It would be my first boat. This thread has given me a lot to think. Thanks!

 

My first boat was an F24 mk 2; so I wouldn't worry about owning a Corsair as a first boat.  Corsair makes a good product; the vid sure shows some good smiles.  Boat looked fast and well thought out.   

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4 hours ago, mambi said:

These two got a 880 to sail around for 6 months and are planning to do a review and probably show the boat in multiple sailing conditions. I'm seriously considering this boat. It would be my first boat. This thread has given me a lot to think. Thanks!

 

 

Looks like a cool boat and a great way for Multihull Source to get some publicity!

Each to his own, but strikes me as a tad expensive for a first boat, particularly given the reasonable supply of used Corsairs and Farriers on the market at less than half the cost.

Have you at least sailed a Corsair/Farrier boat to ensure that this is what you're interested in?

On 7/7/2020 at 11:44 AM, D Wayne G said:

OK Maybe I spoke too soon. After watching the longer 10 min vid I can see the boat looks much better. Maybe she has a tad too much dihedral. That can be a good thing in light air, not so good in heavy air. Looking forward to seeing more. 

I agree with Wayne - looks like a tad too much dihedral (windward float is quite high out of the water) - but maybe it works on this boat?

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It is expensive, there is a strong chance that will prevent me from going with this boat. However, right now I have a well paying job that could allow me to splurge on something like this, while also having a busy family life including a toddler that make time a much scarce resource. A project boat or even an older boat that would require me to spend a lot of time on maintenance doesn't look like a good option.

The hope is my first boat would allow for fun time in the water. No time for long deliveries, while also having a strong desire to explore distant and warmer locations. A ready to go, trailer sailer, that could sleep a family of three for a long weekend or be used for day sails, seems to fit the bill. The fact that I could also do a race and have fun, on my own boat vs other people boat, is just icing on the cake.

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11 hours ago, mambi said:

It is expensive, there is a strong chance that will prevent me from going with this boat. However, right now I have a well paying job that could allow me to splurge on something like this, while also having a busy family life including a toddler that make time a much scarce resource. A project boat or even an older boat that would require me to spend a lot of time on maintenance doesn't look like a good option.

The hope is my first boat would allow for fun time in the water. No time for long deliveries, while also having a strong desire to explore distant and warmer locations. A ready to go, trailer sailer, that could sleep a family of three for a long weekend or be used for day sails, seems to fit the bill. The fact that I could also do a race and have fun, on my own boat vs other people boat, is just icing on the cake.

The 880 looks to be a great boat but if on a budget get an F27. No better bang for the buck in multihull land. The F27 can do everything. Amazing Ian Farrier design and great Corsair USA build. 

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15 hours ago, mambi said:

It is expensive, there is a strong chance that will prevent me from going with this boat. However, right now I have a well paying job that could allow me to splurge on something like this, while also having a busy family life including a toddler that make time a much scarce resource. A project boat or even an older boat that would require me to spend a lot of time on maintenance doesn't look like a good option.

The hope is my first boat would allow for fun time in the water. No time for long deliveries, while also having a strong desire to explore distant and warmer locations. A ready to go, trailer sailer, that could sleep a family of three for a long weekend or be used for day sails, seems to fit the bill. The fact that I could also do a race and have fun, on my own boat vs other people boat, is just icing on the cake.

I'm on my 3rd new boat.  Have only bought one used boat.  Granted, I like to fiddle with stuff and a good part of the joy of ownership (for me) is fixing or customizing to suit me.  Even a new boat will take some TLC especially when this is your first boat.  Like any hobby, you get out of it what you put into it.  It is certainly NOT like buying a car from a dealership and driving off the lot.  

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17 hours ago, mambi said:

It is expensive, there is a strong chance that will prevent me from going with this boat. However, right now I have a well paying job that could allow me to splurge on something like this, while also having a busy family life including a toddler that make time a much scarce resource. A project boat or even an older boat that would require me to spend a lot of time on maintenance doesn't look like a good option.

The hope is my first boat would allow for fun time in the water. No time for long deliveries, while also having a strong desire to explore distant and warmer locations. A ready to go, trailer sailer, that could sleep a family of three for a long weekend or be used for day sails, seems to fit the bill. The fact that I could also do a race and have fun, on my own boat vs other people boat, is just icing on the cake.

You should join the Farrier/Corsair Trimaran group on groups.io if you haven't already and seek opinions there as well.

There is an established poster on that forum who enjoyed his F27 for many years before deciding to move up to a brand new Corsair 31. He then documented how he spent the next 3+ years correcting Corsair's build mistakes. To this day, he remains quick remind the forum of his disgust at having to do so much of Corsair's quality control for them.

That's just one man's story of one boat. And I don't know enough about the Corsair company to say if the issues of a few years ago are the issues of today. This post is not intended to rag on Corsair. I'd sure love to have an 880! I would just say that if getting a boat that is proven ready-to-go from day 1 is high on your priority list, you might want to steer clear of a brand new build. Save a 100 grand and let someone else iron out the kinks.

My first "family" boat was a F24 Mark 2 which I got when the kids were 5, 3, and 1, for all the reasons you stated. Five years later and the kids are bigger and so I traded it six months ago for an F27 which needed some love. I have spent most of the last six months fixing her up and making her pretty. F27s that have a long list of needs can be had for near 30K or less. But there is no reason you need to go that route. If you are willing to go to 40-45k, you can buy one from some anal perfectionist who does rigorous maintenance, has done all the modern upgrades, and just replaced the sails a couple of years ago. Mid 30's for something in between. Or look at an F28.

Even a turn-key used boat is still going to have a couple of things that need to be done. But good chance of that with brand new as well (from what I hear, never had one myself).

Yesterday I was in moderate wind with my buddy screaming across Biscayne Bay on my F27 at 15 knots under main and genoa. And my sailing skills are average, at best!  And yet this is a safe family boat that makes a great platform for day sail exploring, picnicking, snorkeling, etc. You'll love it.

 

 

 

 

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These are great advices and exactly what I need.

Just to give some background on myself. I have been sailing now for +10years. Started racing J22 in Baltimore Inner Harbor at the wonderful Downtown Sailing Center. Once I moved to a DC suburb, I found easier to make my way to racing at Annapolis' many around the buoy and weekend races. My only multihull experience is a R32 which was a handful, we shared the class with mostly trimarans, probably F27/28/31. I also raced J105s, T10, and now a Columbia 32. In each case I try to help the boat owner with maintenance tasks just to learn. I know this is not close to what it means to own a boat, but I feel I have a good general sense of what to expect.

I have heard many times that I should not expect a new boat to be perfect on day one. One of the reasons I want my boat is to take pride and enjoinment in taking care of it. However, I do expect to be easier to deal with warranty claims over months of DIY projects. I also need to convince my better half that this is something we will enjoy together. A pretty modern boat that doesn't smell will certainly help.

I'm at least a year away, more likely two, from making a purchase. I'll make next season goal to try to crew in a Corsair. I'm definitely checking out the used listing for boats not too old, with a sweet spot 5-10 years old.

Once again, thanks!

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3 hours ago, mambi said:

I have heard many times that I should not expect a new boat to be perfect on day one.

That main reason for this isn't what you think. 

Your first boat is very rarely "perfect" if only because you don't actually know what you want.

I promise, even if you think you know... You won't really know until you have one (or a couple...).

However,

3 hours ago, mambi said:

In each case I try to help the boat owner with maintenance tasks just to learn. I know this is not close to what it means to own a boat, but I feel I have a good general sense of what to expect.

This is definitely a great way to learn. Way to go! Do more of this! It will save you lots of money and frustration down the road. 

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Wess is absolutely right about the F-27, and if your in DC there are at least a dozen various size Corsairs sailing with Chesapeake Multihull Association, and willing to take you sailing.  I went with the F-28R better for the larger cockpit while still being under 30 ft.  A really well  maintained and sorted out used boat (new sails, rigging etc..) may actually be less work than commissioning a new boat.

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4 hours ago, mambi said:

...However, I do expect to be easier to deal with warranty claims over months of DIY projects. I also need to convince my better half that this is something we will enjoy together. 

Well, Dealers sell boats and some are better than others with dealing with the "factory" Corsair.  Warranty claims, should you have any, are more frustrating (to me anyway) than fixing it myself.  Remember that the "factory" is in Vietnam.  Getting your boat back to them to fix something is probably something nobody wants to do.  My warranty claim with Corsair was back in 1999 and I drove to the factory which was then in San Diego (Chula Vista).  Left it there a month--2 9 hour drives there and back (yes, I speed).  What I needed fixed wasn't something I could do (one ama was not aligned properly).   

Convincing your better half...if you can do so, you are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.   Does she like camping out or does she prefer to stay in luxury hotels.  If the former, I think you have a chance. 

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I have to say this video is an excellent tour of a new 880.  I watched with sound off; but still was left with the impression that it is a pretty good value for a quarter million US$ (not sure how much they really cost).  Well thought out.    

 

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  • 1 month later...

Attended a really cool presentation yesterday hosted by NWMA with Francois Perus, designer of the Corsair 880. Some key points of interest from my notes:

  • Francois also designed the Pulse 600 and 760 for Corsair (he works for a French design firm)
  • Following his formal education he went to Australia to work with Tony Grainger 
  • He overlaid drawings of the F-28 and Corsair 880 which was very interesting
  • From above, the main hull is dimensionally very similar to the F-28, however as viewed from the side it has much more volume in the stern, and less rocker
  • The floats have about 3x the floatation of the F-28 floats, much of this extra floatation is in the aft ends of the floats, which also have less rocker
  • The beams and mast are situated aft compared to the F-28
  • Dimensionally, this boat is pretty much "maxed out" in terms of what you can built and trailer within road legal specs in most countries
  • The main shrouds require Highfield levers to lengthen for folding, because it wasn't otherwise possible to get the required hull volumes within trailering parameters 
  • The boat was able to sustain 25 knots in big swell during prototype testing in Hawaii 
  • Although the main hull could theoretically fly, it's not designed to, hence the single rudder on the main hull
  • From a design perspective outboard rudders are also highly problematic on a folding boat
  • There is one on order and arriving in Seattle in November, no owners yet, so it's available
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Did the discussion of trailering include how much the total tow weighs (in actuality, not pie in the sky)?  Most modern SUVs can't tow as much as the ones in previous decades.  The sailplan isn't really shown in too much detail at the Corsair site.  In particular, are there two halyard exits for screacher and spinnaker like last generation Corsairs?   

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

Did the discussion of trailering include how much the total tow weighs (in actuality, not pie in the sky)?  Most modern SUVs can't tow as much as the ones in previous decades.  The sailplan isn't really shown in too much detail at the Corsair site.  In particular, are there two halyard exits for screacher and spinnaker like last generation Corsairs?   

No, trailering weight didn't come up. But Francois Perus did state that the 880 displacement is 1000 pounds more than the F28, but when pressed he wouldn't specify where the extra weight is. Looking at the over lay of the 880 and the F28 that FP put up, my guess is the extra weight is in increased skin area, the floats are much longer and fuller, and the main hull had less aft rocker (the transom will be submerged at rest) and quite a bit taller main hull and cabin top.  Also from photos i have seen of the interior the 880 has a much higher usage of gelcoated interior liners than the F28 had.

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6 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Did the discussion of trailering include how much the total tow weighs (in actuality, not pie in the sky)?  Most modern SUVs can't tow as much as the ones in previous decades.  The sailplan isn't really shown in too much detail at the Corsair site.  In particular, are there two halyard exits for screacher and spinnaker like last generation Corsairs?   

Regarding towing he referenced weight limits in Australia but didn't say what they were.

The 'regular' (i.e. non-sport) sail plan is very similar to the 28 when overlaid, but the 'sport' mast is about 5' taller - 39' vs. 44'. Apparently the 880 featured on the Tula YouTube channel has the 'regular' mast. We dry-sail our F-82R with a 38’ mast and I just can't imagine trailering with a 44' mast - it would be a giant PITA! The dealer from Seattle commented that the 44' mast is almost too much, so the new boat coming in will have the 39' mast. 

4 hours ago, lakepee said:

No, trailering weight didn't come up. But Francois Perus did state that the 880 displacement is 1000 pounds more than the F28, but when pressed he wouldn't specify where the extra weight is. Looking at the over lay of the 880 and the F28 that FP put up, my guess is the extra weight is in increased skin area, the floats are much longer and fuller, and the main hull had less aft rocker (the transom will be submerged at rest) and quite a bit taller main hull and cabin top.  Also from photos i have seen of the interior the 880 has a much higher usage of gelcoated interior liners than the F28 had.

I heard Francois say the layup schedules of the Corsair boats have been consistent at 500g/m2 for years, and the 880 just has lots of extra surface area inside and out, which accounts for most of the extra weight. The beams are also longer. Those who have seen the boat in person say it is much more substantial than the F-28, despite the similar planform of the main hull. They say it feels more similar in size to an F-9 than an F-28.  

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Its interesting to hear other attendee's take away from the presentation.  They picked up things I missed but the info and discussion was happening fast.  I've done a write up of Francois' presentation from the notes I took.  I haven't and likely won't cross check them with the recording of the meeting.  Thats too much work/time for me, it was a ~2.5 hour talk and Q&A.   I certainly could be wrong but my notes said the floats had 300% floatation of the weight of the boat.  I know squat so I don't know if thats ridiculous or not.  This is in contrast to what gspot wrote in post 122;  that the floats are "300% of the F28 floats".  He may be a better listener than me.  Either way they are much more buoyant.  I came away with the impression that Ian designed rocker (at the stern??) to keep the bow up, whereas Francois' 880 has a flatter run aft for planing and the larger, fuller floats will keep its bow up.  

We recorded the presentation and after Francois reviews it we will post it on the NWMA website,   You'll find it by scrolling down through the notice for the January meeting.  The minutes/write up and video link will be found at the end of the notice.

 

 

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I found Francois' presentation fascinating...much as I respect Ian Farrier, he was extremely protective of his design process, and Francois was very open about why he did made the decisions he did. It's also a really sweet-looking boat, and I think it will sail like a dream. You can just see how it looks like it's truly skimming the water. I was especially fascinated by the return to "wave piercing" bows.

Responding to some of the other topics raised in this thread:
- You're not going to tow this boat with a car or SUV. Quoted displacement of 3700 pounds probably doesn't count head, cushions, outboard, battery, generator, water heater, etc. My Farrier weighs about the same, and towing it with an 8-cylinder F-150 (9000lb towing capacity) was a bit of a nightmare (from Ohio to Florida, among other journeys, so not just down the street). Fellow NWMA club member Jeff tows his F9 (same displacement) with an Excursion...3/4 ton with 13k towing capacity, and that seems to do just fine. I don't want to start a tow rating war, and I'm not one of those guys who tows a pop-up tent trailer with a 1-ton, but after tens of thousands of miles of towing, I use half of the rated tow capacity as a starting point, unless you have a diesel connected to a drive train that was designed less than 50 years ago.
- For me, mast height isn't actually a factor when towing. My boat's mast is 44 feet long, and I've never come close to accidentally making it shorter.
- The head location is a compromise, and if you're not comfortable going up on deck after dark to take a leak and admire the phosphorescence created by your stream, this might not be the boat for you. My boat is 32 feet LOA and yet the v-berth is short enough that it needs a shelf over the head (I'm 6 feet tall), meaning you can't use the head at night without waking everybody up. On the 880, you'd have to be under 5 feet tall to have a usable v-berth and head all the time. On some of the bigger boats you can wedge the head next to the daggerboard trunk but it's still an exercise in gymnastics to use it. Most sailors I know convert the main cabin to a big berth with a slide-out extension between the settees. The sliding head seems to be a decent compromise. And how much of your boat time do you spend there, anyway?
- I love the elevated cockpit, which makes room for both a "real" cockpit and a reasonable (single) berth underneath.
 

Overall this boat looks like it could hit a sweet spot for the price and fun factor. Well done, Corsair. But please, if you buy one, *don't* opt for the water heater, shower, fridge, bbq, etc. or you will be saying, "I thought this boat was supposed to be fast?" You can always add that stuff later.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, wjquigs said:

- You're not going to tow this boat with a car or SUV. Quoted displacement of 3700 pounds probably doesn't count head, cushions, outboard, battery, generator, water heater, etc. My Farrier weighs about the same, and towing it with an 8-cylinder F-150 (9000lb towing capacity) was a bit of a nightmare (from Ohio to Florida, among other journeys, so not just down the street). Fellow NWMA club member Jeff tows his F9 (same displacement) with an Excursion...3/4 ton with 13k towing capacity, and that seems to do just fine. I don't want to start a tow rating war, and I'm not one of those guys who tows a pop-up tent trailer with a 1-ton, but after tens of thousands of miles of towing, I use half of the rated tow capacity as a starting point, unless you have a diesel connected to a drive train that was designed less than 50 years ago.

There has been massive inflation in towing ratings over the past 25-30 years, to the point that I think it's highly irresponsible of vehicle manufacturers. How is it possible that a one-ton diesel dually from 25 years ago can "only" tow 10,000 pounds, and a vehicle half that size can now apparently tow the same amount?

Moreover, the main issue with towing an F/C boat is not so much the weight but the physical size and windage. Sure a Toyota Tacoma can theoretically tow the weight, but that truck is so light that a moderate wind gust on the highway puts you and your tow at serious risk of being blown off the road. 

You really need a heavier tow vehicle to safely tow an F/C boat, especially on the highway, because horsepower alone won't keep your vehicle from being pushed around and dragged off the road by the trailer. 

 

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4 hours ago, gspot said:

There has been massive inflation in towing ratings over the past 25-30 years, to the point that I think it's highly irresponsible of vehicle manufacturers. How is it possible that a one-ton diesel dually from 25 years ago can "only" tow 10,000 pounds, and a vehicle half that size can now apparently tow the same amount?

Moreover, the main issue with towing an F/C boat is not so much the weight but the physical size and windage. Sure a Toyota Tacoma can theoretically tow the weight, but that truck is so light that a moderate wind gust on the highway puts you and your tow at serious risk of being blown off the road. 

You really need a heavier tow vehicle to safely tow an F/C boat, especially on the highway, because horsepower alone won't keep your vehicle from being pushed around and dragged off the road by the trailer. 

 

I’m not sure what a Tacoma equivalent is in Aus. The Toyota Hilux here in dual cab form weighs 2.25 tonne and is rated to tow 3500kg. Being a diesel it has plenty of grunt and allied with the mass is a great tow vehicle for the Farrier/Corsair boats. I’ve been doing that for 5+ years on highways and find it very safe. The same would apply to any of the mainstream dual cabs available from Ford, Nissan, Isuzu, Mazda and VW. I have no direct knowledge about the Chinese or Indian utes but they seem capable too. 

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30 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

I’m not sure what a Tacoma equivalent is in Aus. The Toyota Hilux here in dual cab form weighs 2.25 tonne and is rated to tow 3500kg. Being a diesel it has plenty of grunt and allied with the mass is a great tow vehicle for the Farrier/Corsair boats. I’ve been doing that for 5+ years on highways and find it very safe. The same would apply to any of the mainstream dual cabs available from Ford, Nissan, Isuzu, Mazda and VW. I have no direct knowledge about the Chinese or Indian utes but they seem capable too. 

The Hilux and Tacoma are similar in looks and stature, but the Hilux has a much heavier-duty frame, higher payload, and as you noted the Diesel engine. There really isn’t an equivalent of the Hilux in North America, and all vehicles with that stature here are relatively light-duty.

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On 1/20/2021 at 11:45 PM, wjquigs said:

You're not going to tow this boat with a car or SUV. Quoted displacement of 3700 pounds probably doesn't count head, cushions, outboard, battery, generator, water heater, etc. My Farrier weighs about the same, and towing it with an 8-cylinder F-150 (9000lb towing capacity) was a bit of a nightmare (from Ohio to Florida, among other journeys, so not just down the street).

 

 

 

My Corsair C36 came up from FL to MD behind an F150 with zero issues.  The 880 is far smaller and lighter and I would think could be easily towed with something less than a 1/2 ton pick-up... nevermind a 3/4 ton.

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towing..... yeah...   I had a 28 R and towed it with a Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV  and a Porsche Cayenne .... it was horrible ... 

later with a Toyota Tundra truck absolutely no problems.

same as my former F 33 with the Toyota Tundra  no problems at all....   In my opinion its not just towing capacity but wheelbase .... the longer the better .

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  • 1 month later...

Imp,  Were you at the nwma zoom meeting last night?  One of the crew on that boat was there.  I think there were some mitigating circumstances.  Let me know and I can get you in touch with him.  He did say he had a lot of fun. 

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5 hours ago, eric1207 said:

Imp,  Were you at the nwma zoom meeting last night?  One of the crew on that boat was there.  I think there were some mitigating circumstances.  Let me know and I can get you in touch with him.  He did say he had a lot of fun. 

I checked in a bit late and must have missed the conversation about the 880. I'm not quite ready to pull the trigger on something yet so no need to pass along the contact info. I was hoping to see it perform well though, I really like the layout and it seems like it would be a sweet ride here in the Puget Sound.

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The club has had a lot of discussion on the 880 and those who've seen it seem to like it a lot.  I think there is one in town, too.  I'll mention again, that if you weren't there check out the recording of our January meeting with the 880 designer Francois Perus.  We had a lot of back and forth & Q&A.   I haven't watched the recording as I was there but its ~2 hrs long and undoubtedly there are slow spots.  I'm sure you'll get something out of it though.   IIRC some get the impression that it feels nearly as big as the F31.  

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On 3/9/2021 at 7:25 PM, eric1207 said:

The club has had a lot of discussion on the 880 and those who've seen it seem to like it a lot.  I think there is one in town, too.  I'll mention again, that if you weren't there check out the recording of our January meeting with the 880 designer Francois Perus.  We had a lot of back and forth & Q&A.   I haven't watched the recording as I was there but its ~2 hrs long and undoubtedly there are slow spots.  I'm sure you'll get something out of it though.   IIRC some get the impression that it feels nearly as big as the F31.  

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. 

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On 3/9/2021 at 12:21 PM, gbkersey said:

Not so hot at Corsair Nationals....  9 of 12

Personally I find it takes at least a year to get a boat dialed in, learn how to sail it competitively etc.

So the fact that this particular boat isn't regularly raced and they weren't DFL is pretty good IMHO! 

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You also have to wonder how the rating of 1 was assigned to the 880 when a 28R is rated 21.  This particular 880 was set up for cruising with a short stick.  https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_registrant_list.php?regatta_id=21697&custom_report_id=86

In the low PHRF they rate an F242 as faster than an F27, so lots of questions could be raised about the ratings.  Would be instructive to see the elapsed times for the race participants.  But the nationals are supposed to be social races--right?

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19 hours ago, MultiThom said:

You also have to wonder how the rating of 1 was assigned to the 880 when a 28R is rated 21.  This particular 880 was set up for cruising with a short stick.  https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_registrant_list.php?regatta_id=21697&custom_report_id=86

In the low PHRF they rate an F242 as faster than an F27, so lots of questions could be raised about the ratings.  Would be instructive to see the elapsed times for the race participants.  But the nationals are supposed to be social races--right?

I think any multihull rating system that doesn't take the sailing weight of the boat into account needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. 

In that regard I think the OMR rating system is far superior to PHRF for rating multihulls. 

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20 hours ago, MultiThom said:

You also have to wonder how the rating of 1 was assigned to the 880 when a 28R is rated 21.  This particular 880 was set up for cruising with a short stick.  https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_registrant_list.php?regatta_id=21697&custom_report_id=86

In the low PHRF they rate an F242 as faster than an F27, so lots of questions could be raised about the ratings.  Would be instructive to see the elapsed times for the race participants.  But the nationals are supposed to be social races--right?

Where exactly is it that you are claiming an F24 is rated faster than an F27 in this regatta?  You maybe want to correct your statement??

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You are right, it is in the PHRF high, not low (leave it to Wess to be the floccinaucinihilipilificator).  The F24 is rated 33 (same as the 750 class) while the F27 is rated 48 (ie, 15 sec/mile slower than an F24).    And they give a pulse the same rating as the F27s.  Weird rating assignments if you ask me, but as said before, it is a social gathering more than a race.  

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2 hours ago, gspot said:

I think any multihull rating system that doesn't take the sailing weight of the boat into account needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. 

In that regard I think the OMR rating system is far superior to PHRF for rating multihulls. 

Agreed, but still, most races are scored PHRF in the USA, conversion between the two is possible but not linear.  The OMR rules require a whole bunch of measurements that are PITA--and the final result is another meaningless number that cannot accurately describe the relationship between unlike classes of boats in all wind, seastate, course....  But it is probably better than throwing darts at a board of numbers on the wall.

I really would like to know the actual sailing weight of the 880. 

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22 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

You are right, it is in the PHRF high, not low (leave it to Wess to be the floccinaucinihilipilificator).  The F24 is rated 33 (same as the 750 class) while the F27 is rated 48 (ie, 15 sec/mile slower than an F24).    And they give a pulse the same rating as the F27s.  Weird rating assignments if you ask me, but as said before, it is a social gathering more than a race.  

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I stand corrected. I looked at PHRF because that is what you pointed to but agree its in PHRF high and that is a F-ed up rating!

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3 hours ago, gspot said:

I think any multihull rating system that doesn't take the sailing weight of the boat into account needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. 

In that regard I think the OMR rating system is far superior to PHRF for rating multihulls. 

MOCRA rating system is pretty good too. Arguably better than OMR.

1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

I really would like to know the actual sailing weight of the 880. 

Couldn’t find a Corsair 880 on the OMR or Texel websites, but found one on the MOCRA website.

Measured weight is 1700 kg: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rhmaTdIxkxKRNHi-nLgoFXmbMY60wxAZ/view

Weights included/excluded are in section 12: https://sites.google.com/site/mocrarating/home/mocra-rating-rule

Using measured weights (ie no crew allowance) rated lengths and rated upwind sail areas only, the fag packet respective Base Speeds are:

F24: 10.0 knots, F27: 10.7 knots, C880: 10.7 knots. Academic, but If you go to 2 decimal places, the C880 is 0.06 knots faster because the F27 is rounded up and the C880 is rounded down.

 

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34 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

 

Measured weight is 1700 kg: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rhmaTdIxkxKRNHi-nLgoFXmbMY60wxAZ/view

Weights included/excluded are in section 12: https://sites.google.com/site/mocrarating/home/mocra-rating-rule

Using measured weights (ie no crew allowance) rated lengths and rated upwind sail areas only, the fag packet respective Base Speeds are:

F24: 10.0 knots, F27: 10.7 knots, C880: 10.7 knots. Academic, but If you go to 2 decimal places, the C880 is 0.06 knots faster because the F27 is rounded up and the C880 is rounded down.

 

I know it says measured on the cert; but 1700 kgs seems awfully "even" doncha think?  As an aside, a local F28R weighs 1540 kgs. so 1700 is likely close--basically 2 people heavier than a 28R.  And thanks for doing the Base Speeds calc...Tula's Endless summer rated 1 PHRF while F27 rated 48 PHRF  while both "should" progress at a stately 10.7 kts down the course.  But that is the point, this regatta result should not be taken as any sort of indicator of boat capability.  It would be more useful to know elapsed times for the races to better compare boatspeeds.   

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57 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

I know it says measured on the cert; but 1700 kgs seems awfully "even" doncha think?  As an aside, a local F28R weighs 1540 kgs. so 1700 is likely close--basically 2 people heavier than a 28R.  And thanks for doing the Base Speeds calc...Tula's Endless summer rated 1 PHRF while F27 rated 48 PHRF  while both "should" progress at a stately 10.7 kts down the course.  But that is the point, this regatta result should not be taken as any sort of indicator of boat capability.  It would be more useful to know elapsed times for the races to better compare boatspeeds.   

I think so too, but the official certificate is the official certificate and it is current. Argue with the measurer if you want.

Base Speed is average speed over all conditions. Top theoretical speed would be double that, and Base Speed is also around top speed upwind. Don’t forget these numbers are without screechers and spinnakers, if you include them, their Base Speed numbers go up significantly, but I didn’t use them because the different rating systems whilst they measure sail area accurately, put different weightings on them in their overall formulas and I couldn’t get all the info out of one rating spreadsheet. And downwind sail areas can vary significantly from boat to boat. As can weights.

FWIW, the only F28R I could see on my copy of the OMR spreadsheet gives a weight of 1423kg without crew. I did find 4 F82r’s on the spreadsheet, and they vary in weight through 1101, 1130, 1220 and 1435 kg. Their sail areas also vary, especially the down wind ones.

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17 hours ago, Sidecar said:

FWIW, the only F28R I could see on my copy of the OMR spreadsheet gives a weight of 1423kg without crew. I did find 4 F82r’s on the spreadsheet, and they vary in weight through 1101, 1130, 1220 and 1435 kg. Their sail areas also vary, especially the down wind ones.

Here in SF bay we have a couple F31s, one weighs 2000kgs and another at 1780 kgs.  Looked at a couple F27s and their weights range from 1300 to 1500 kgs.   With the lists you show of the F82s and the two F28Rs we know about, we can pretty much conclude that this particular C880 is heavy for its length-which should be no surprise since it is set up for cruising.    I think anyone who wants to race one ought to opt for the tall stick but a heavy boat is a heavy boat no matter how much sail you put on it--you are still shoving all that water out of the way.

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/11/2021 at 1:50 PM, MultiThom said:

You also have to wonder how the rating of 1 was assigned to the 880 when a 28R is rated 21.  This particular 880 was set up for cruising with a short stick.  https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_registrant_list.php?regatta_id=21697&custom_report_id=86

In the low PHRF they rate an F242 as faster than an F27, so lots of questions could be raised about the ratings.  Would be instructive to see the elapsed times for the race participants.  But the nationals are supposed to be social races--right?

Here's their vid from the nationals.  Let's just say they had fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwFZEX1Mm6c

 

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18 hours ago, JoeyG said:

They certainly learned a lot, they hadn’t raced ever before!

Considering busted spin and lack of idea when the start is, their result is excellent! Is the motor needed or could they have ditched that too?

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  • 1 month later...

Anyone know how the 880 is dealing with mast rotation for the wind instrument package?, is there a mast morataion sensor inside the mast and a H5000 tuckled away or are the running a different solution?

 Couldn't see anything on the Tula videos except the B&G head units

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