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Deal Killers?


Jules

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The boat is a 1981 CS33.  Contract price is $13,500.  Boat came down from someplace north to Florida in 2016.  It had a barrier coat and keel work the same year along with bottom paint.  Next year the mast was pulled and Mack Sails replaced turnbuckles and backstay and added a VHF antenna.  Also the prop shaft, cutlass bearing and stuffing box were replaced.  Don't know about the prop.  

There are notebooks that show at one time a very meticulous owner truly loved this boat.  It was impressive thumbing through the notebooks.  He hand typed pages and pages of notes, detailing everything including where to find whatever it is you are looking for, how to maintain them and the intervals and on it went.  This guy was beautifully anal. 

An then... best I can tell someone stripped the boat of practically everything and sold it.  (IRMA was in 2017.)  A 24 yr old bought it last December and a couple of weeks ago listed it for $14,900.  We offered $10K, he countered $13,500 and wouldn't budge from there.  Thing is this boat is really well built and we couldn't see any structural issues.  And that's after pulling up every floorboard and poking my nose everywhere it would fit.  Anyway...

What we know now:

1) It has no bilge pump.  Apparently there was a manual diaphragm pump at the helm but it's missing.   Owner says, "This is a very dry boat" and apparently whoever sold him on that nonsense led him to believe there was no need to check under the floorboards.  When we checked we found what the broker said was anti freeze in one section (it was red), stagnant water in another and a lake under the engine.  Yes, a lake.  The oil pan of the engine was partially submerged.  Looks like there's a clogged line preventing stuffing box dripping from flowing to the bilge.  Owner seemed unfazed when I told him the oil pan was sitting in a soup of seawater and diesel fuel and he should clear the clog and install a bilge pump.  But it's a very dry boat.

2) The fuel filter has a leak.  It has a date of 1/17 written on it.  Someone placed a paper towel to soak up the drips.

3) On the port side deck there's a serious soft spot about 5' long.  Tap testing identified it and the Electrophysics GRP 33 needle was buried in that area while reading tolerable elsewhere.

I've got some pics if interested but I just wanted to see if anyone was willing to voice an opinion or sound an alarm.

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A five foot soft deck section is not a deal breaker to me but be aware of what you are getting in to. Sounds like lots of issues. The engine and bilge to me are bigger unknown issues.  Oil, fuel and antifreeze are a turn off to me when in the bilge. I want a clean dry bilge. If you have that some basic maintenance has been done on the boat. Make a list of everything you want to do on the boat, determine the cost and that number plus sales price, are you comfortable with that number? Plenty of boats out there.

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Thanks for the help.  I'm being blinded by what the boat can be with a bit of TLC.  Before we call in a marine engine mechanic I just needed some feedback to clear my mind.

Engine runs and sounds pretty good.  He ran it up to 2500 RPM and it purred.  My worries are what is happening to the metal on the partially submerged oil pan and what else is going on in that soupy lake under the engine? 

CS33_004.jpg.4c4f5c26a1e354c3440d599616c06d34.jpg

CS33_005.jpg.5554efc61c0e90788a365d8f13604c11.jpg

This was the only diesel fuel leak I could find it this.  Someone put a paper towel to soak up the leak but the present owner probably never even saw it.

CS33_006.jpg.efe470c0b132a400e28a7850d68ba0ff.jpg

From what I could see, this is typical of the engine mounts

CS33_007.jpg.d4b24e905160058a9c2b0db43735611a.jpg

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The owner's apparent lack of concern about the state of the bilge and lack of a bilge pump is mind boggling.  When we lifted the floorboards midship we saw this.  It's at the aft end of the keel.

CS33_009.jpg.fa6e6588a6d94e2fa052dbaec73c3fbf.jpg

This is immediately forward of above.  It smelled like sewer water but could have just been from being stagnant

CS33_010.jpg.4783463f9bdeded7c2558feacc4e69eb.jpg

The next two were taken from the other side so left is aft.

I asked the owner if we could clean up these two bays in the bilge.  He supplied us with a bag & we supplied the shop towels

The paper shop towel was left in place because the channel leading aft was still leaking fluid

CS33_011.jpg.3209c34b6f9e6dcce33f4bdc01b760a5.jpg

All the keel bolts looked fairly new.  The owner said the previous owner dropped the keel and replaced the bolts.

CS33_012.jpg.fe40fc7ca15e0d8623319669d1cf212d.jpg

 

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33 minutes ago, Jules said:

My worries are what is happening to the metal on the partially submerged oil pan and what else is going on in that soupy lake under the engine? 

The answer to both questions: unwanted chemistry.

If those engine mounts still feature rubber, it's rotten.

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Forgot to mention, the floorboards (teak and holly plywood) right above the black water are practically gone.  It's amazing the power of whatever was growing in that black science project.

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And then there's this - it looks to me like the plywood was submerged or whatever microbes ate away the floorboards worked their way forward.  The picture was taken under the sink in the starboard head.

CS33_013.jpg.e3171a55a774e19482fd085e33f3bffc.jpg

When I saw the transducer laying there I thought about how the owner sold us that both speed and depth instruments worked.  Maybe there was a mouse in there spinning transducer the paddle.

Another curiosity was the plywood cover under the V-berth cushions. You could thumb through the laminate sheets like the pages of a book.  They had all been almost completely delaminated.  There was no sign of moisture anywhere.  I've been working with wood for decades and have never seen plywood delaminate so cleanly.

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Get an oil sample and send it for analysis. That's going to be the best way to get a handle on what might be going on in the sump..... and other inner mysteries.

Deal-breakers: stuff you don't know how to fix. Stuff you know how to fix, but you know is going to be expensive enough to be far beyond 'worthwhile' even in boat-owner fantasyland.

Looks like you really took a long hard detailed look at this boat. Did you come away with a list of stuff you need, so you can price it out before making any call? I know this is the boring part but it prevents future unpleasantness.

That bilge really is a science experiment gone wrong. But it's not the poor boat's fault

FB- Doug

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We're going to call in a marine mechanic and ask him to take a good look and give us a list of things that need to be taken care of along with cost. 

As for deal breakers, I remember Cap'n Fatty writing about his search for the next boat (it became the Wauquiez 43) and he said any sign of a wet deck was a deal killer.  I realize I'm not going to be cruising the world but that stuck in my head.

I had a tough time getting decent pictures below but this was interesting.

CS33_014.jpg.7df1101295ab296a1ed83d4a70cc88d2.jpg

I don't know if the screw came loose over time or if the boat was shaken up (I keep thinking IRMA) and the screw pulled out.  The other side has the same situation.

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

And then there's this - it looks to me like the plywood was submerged or whatever microbes ate away the floorboards worked their way forward.  The picture was taken under the sink in the starboard head.

CS33_013.jpg.e3171a55a774e19482fd085e33f3bffc.jpg

When I saw the transducer laying there I thought about how the owner sold us that both speed and depth instruments worked.  Maybe there was a mouse in there spinning transducer the paddle.

Another curiosity was the plywood cover under the V-berth cushions. You could thumb through the laminate sheets like the pages of a book.  They had all been almost completely delaminated.  There was no sign of moisture anywhere.  I've been working with wood for decades and have never seen plywood delaminate so cleanly.

Jules,

Its not abnormal to keep the speed transducer pulled and the "plug" inserted when in the slip.  Keeps the speed transducer from growing its own micro-reef environment on it.  The downside is, depending on boat and location, when you swap out the plug for the transducer (or vice versa), water comes into the boat.  Depending on location, and and how easy to get all your body parts in there to make a quick swap, there can be either a lot of water spraying around, or only a little.  A bulkhead with unsealed ply exposed at the bottom, frequently doused with water  will look just like that.  In this case, it may only be the teak veneer on the one side that is delaminating as it may get wet with each swap, and then been only wiped down with a rag/towel, then cover and cushion put back on...if so, then not that big a deal.  If the other side of that bulkhead looks the same, or it when you poke it with a pick or pocket knife blade its all soft under that, then maybe a much bigger deal...

As Steam says, you really need an oil sample from both the engine and the transmission.  There are two issues here.  One is whats happening to the metal on the bottom of the engine (oil pan) and transmission, and two is has any of that fluid gotten into the engine or transmission oil?

Floorboards and vee-berth are just jobs of buying new teak (or teak and holly) veneered ply and sealing/oiling/varnishing/whatever to match.

A little research online will tell you how much motor mounts cost...

But there are lots of signs here that this boat has had more water laying around in it for more time that is good for it, and that water may not just be over the timespan on the current owner.  I know you love the boat, but every time you look at it, you uncover more and more things.  All can be fixed, but as a project, the scope continues to grow.  And I guarantee, even with the best surveyor around, you will still find more things once you've bought it and dug into it...

Might be time to drive up to Tampa/Saint Pete and look at that Tartan 3000 centerboard boat, just to have as a comparison...

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2 hours ago, Jules said:

The owner's apparent lack of concern about the state of the bilge and lack of a bilge pump is mind boggling.  When we lifted the floorboards midship we saw this.  It's at the aft end of the keel.

CS33_009.jpg.fa6e6588a6d94e2fa052dbaec73c3fbf.jpg

All the keel bolts looked fairly new.  The owner said the previous owner dropped the keel and replaced the bolts.

That looks like ATF - what lube does the boats transmission require? Some use ATF.

VERY unlikely the PO replaced the keel "bolts" - they are cast in studs. Much more likely they just put new nuts on.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Did you come away with a list of stuff you need, so you can price it out before making any call?

Right now the engine issues are #1 on the list.  Getting rid of the diesel smell could be costly if the cushions are permeated.  All odors are particulate.  All of the hatches and ports need new Plexiglas.  Many of the floorboards have to be replaced.  The interior woodwork needs some TLC.  Still don't know about all the hoses.  Didn't look closely into the electric.  Gotta resolve the bilge pump issue.

I can do pretty much everything but the heavy diesel work and replacing cushions.  But I always get myself into trouble when I find myself saying, "Oh, I can fix that," and only later realize I created a mountain of work for myself. 

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Thanks for the insight, guys.  This is the kind of stuff I need so I can get my head out of dreamland.  But I'm still telling myself, "I can fix that!" 

Coming back to earth, I'm thinking after the marine mechanic has a look-see, we can sit down and discuss the options.  The first trip this boat will take is through the Okeechobee Waterway to get her home.  That motor HAS to be right before we leave Stuart. And there has to be a properly functioning bilge pump and drain system.   

After that, she will be sitting at our dock, staring at me.  And I'll come running.   

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23 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That looks like ATF - what lube does the boats transmission require? Some use ATF.

VERY unlikely the PO replaced the keel "bolts" - they are cast in studs. Much more likely they just put new nuts on.

The more I think about this the more questions I have.  Under the engine is a murky soup.  That should have drained into section where the aft most keel studs are.  But that section had the red fluid in it (I failed to feel or smell test it).  There was no sign of contamination from anything else.  How would that uncontaminated fluid make it to where it sat if it's transmission fluid?

Then the section just forward of that was black stagnant water.  I saw no sign of the red fluid making it's way in.  All fluids of any composition should have flowed into the lowest part of the bilge until channels clogged.  My brain is starting to hurt... 

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35 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

IMHO you are going to have the same amount of cash invested in this boat as a "good" one in the end. YMMV as to if you enjoy fixing things or just buying a boat in good shape.

+1 

Or even more cash. And then there is the time. Not saying don't do it. But as others have already mentioned, know what you are getting into.

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22 minutes ago, Jules said:

The more I think about this the more questions I have.  Under the engine is a murky soup.  That should have drained into section where the aft most keel studs are.  But that section had the red fluid in it (I failed to feel or smell test it).  There was no sign of contamination from anything else.  How would that uncontaminated fluid make it to where it sat if it's transmission fluid?

Then the section just forward of that was black stagnant water.  I saw no sign of the red fluid making it's way in.  All fluids of any composition should have flowed into the lowest part of the bilge until channels clogged.  My brain is starting to hurt... 

...and were all those limber holes, which typically are thru the wooden member under the fiberglass, sealed?  If not all that fluid sitting there has been seeping into the wood that provides the structural support for the keel sump...

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

 I always get myself into trouble when I find myself saying, "Oh, I can fix that," and only later realize I created a mountain of work for myself. 

That's me too. The second corollary to that is "As long as we're.....we might as well".

If you like the work and get the boat at the right price it's O/K.

If you want to go sailing and are looking for a cheap route to that, it's not.

I've learned through hard experience that there is a difference between having the ability to do those things and having the capability to get them done.

Don't fall in love with a project boat unless it's unique - they made hundreds of CS 33's.

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52 minutes ago, Crash said:

...and were all those limber holes, which typically are thru the wooden member under the fiberglass, sealed? 

I don't know the answer to that.  I probed around with my finger but couldn't really tell. 

15 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I've learned through hard experience that there is a difference between having the ability to do those things and having the capability to get them done.

My mind can write checks like they are going out of style.  As my body ages, more and more of those checks remain uncashed.  My body is working overtime to shut down the check writer and, well... maybe it's time to take a nap.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

IMHO you are going to have the same amount of cash invested in this boat as a "good" one in the end. YMMV as to if you enjoy fixing things or just buying a boat in good shape.

+2

I know it may sound silly but one key to any transaction such as this is having reasonable expectations.  You are buying the boat for 5-10% of what it would cost new.  Do you really believe that any boat will leave the factory and then pass through many owners hands giving it the care it needs and deserves?  Your concerns are certainly valid, but at the price point you are looking at you may have to adjust your expectations a bit or up the budget/lower the size of the boat desired to get everything you want/condition you are looking for.  I would perhaps also second the notion of looking at the Tartan 3000 mentioned, it is close by and might give you another yardstick so to speak on condition.  Good luck in your search, the good news is you live in a nice area to sail and sounds like have the benefit of not having a long drive every time you want to go sailing or work on the boat.

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The bilge full of goo doesn't worry me too much. Bilge water won't be attacking the oil pan too much. And an oil pan is simple to replace.

The soft deck is a headache.

I agree that sure looks like ATF. Does the transmission have a leak that has been ignored? Does it have any fluid in it? Did old owner just keep topping it up if it leaked.

But the delaminating plywood is very odd.

4 hours ago, Jules said:

Another curiosity was the plywood cover under the V-berth cushions. You could thumb through the laminate sheets like the pages of a book.  They had all been almost completely delaminated

That suggests that CS used crappy interior plywood - OR the forward part of the boat was underwater for some time. Look for a "bathtub ring" of scum inside lockers in the wet locker, in the head lockers; any place that would be hard to get in and clean.

 

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I the long run, it is always less expensive (was going to say cheaper, but boats are never cheap) to buy a boat that is in good shape and well maintained, than to get a bargain and rebuilt it yourself.   The one who puts the money in to do the refit, never gets the return back in money.   They may have a fast boat, or personal satisfaction at a revival, but nobody makes money selling a boat they did a refit on.   The only folks who come out ahead are the trades and the yard.

I was real close to buying a boat last year that I had an emotional history, that was inexpensive to acquire, but would require a considerable amount of money and personal effort to refit.    Wife was first really encouraging to get her, then when I explained it would take me 2 years to get her back in the water in racing condition, she asked a very cogent question.   How far would the money go to get one similar in ready to go shape and be sailing sooner.   That little reminder broke the spell of the boat on me.    I am saving my nickels for a similar performing boat, but post refit and being actively raced/cruised.

- Stumbling

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To be fair to the boat, what I've posted here is the worst of it.  If we go up in purchase price it has to come out of my retirement fund and there will be taxes to pay on that.  I'd rather avoid that. 

In the last couple of years it's had a bottom job, many seacocks replaced and a total rework of the standing rigging.  From what I can glean thus far it looks like there was a point the previous owner, who paid for all that work, lost interest and let it sit for a year or so.  He bought a 50' Hatteras around then and I think that's when he lost the love for the CS33.  Everything else indicates this boat was at least somewhat loved by previous owners.

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9 minutes ago, Jules said:

To be fair to the boat, what I've posted here is the worst of it.  If we go up in purchase price it has to come out of my retirement fund and there will be taxes to pay on that.  I'd rather avoid that. 

In the last couple of years it's had a bottom job, many seacocks replaced and a total rework of the standing rigging.  From what I can glean thus far it looks like there was a point the previous owner, who paid for all that work, lost interest and let it sit for a year or so.  He bought a 50' Hatteras around then and I think that's when he lost the love for the CS33.  Everything else indicates this boat was at least somewhat loved by previous owners.

I hate to be a pain, but you cannot afford that boat. You are looking at multiple thousands of dollars on top of what the boat costs in the first year. Offer $6,000 and walk if they don't take it. No one is fighting over messed up old boats and that one seems like it sank or something.

Even better, find a nice boat someone else repaired ;)

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59 minutes ago, Zonker said:

The bilge full of goo doesn't worry me too much. Bilge water won't be attacking the oil pan too much. And an oil pan is simple to replace.

The soft deck is a headache.

I agree that sure looks like ATF. Does the transmission have a leak that has been ignored? Does it have any fluid in it? Did old owner just keep topping it up if it leaked.

But the delaminating plywood is very odd.

That suggests that CS used crappy interior plywood - OR the forward part of the boat was underwater for some time. Look for a "bathtub ring" of scum inside lockers in the wet locker, in the head lockers; any place that would be hard to get in and clean.

 

I agree on that Zonker and some isolated softish deck is no biggie but it's odd for a CS. I've found CS's has voids maybe but aren't they were foam core? 

The rest of it with the water damage in the interior might very well be used as a charter boat. I lot of them in that area. Like many charter boats there run hard and put away wet. It will most definitely affect the evaluation. Either now or for re-sale. The old saw about: What is the best offroad vehicle?  A rental car! 

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37 minutes ago, stumblingthunder said:

I the long run, it is always less expensive (was going to say cheaper, but boats are never cheap) to buy a boat that is in good shape and well maintained, than to get a bargain and rebuilt it yourself.   The one who puts the money in to do the refit, never gets the return back in money.   They may have a fast boat, or personal satisfaction at a revival, but nobody makes money selling a boat they did a refit on.   The only folks who come out ahead are the trades and the yard.

I was real close to buying a boat last year that I had an emotional history, that was inexpensive to acquire, but would require a considerable amount of money and personal effort to refit.    Wife was first really encouraging to get her, then when I explained it would take me 2 years to get her back in the water in racing condition, she asked a very cogent question.   How far would the money go to get one similar in ready to go shape and be sailing sooner.   That little reminder broke the spell of the boat on me.    I am saving my nickels for a similar performing boat, but post refit and being actively raced/cruised.

- Stumbling

Exactly. Buying a tired old boat is the cheap part. And yes, you can fix it up, pay for newer equipment for replacement but you have to understand you are buying stuff at retail/jewelry store prices. Even if you are tight with a wholesaler it's still hard to pencil. 

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24 minutes ago, Jules said:

We got a marine mechanic to check it out tomorrow. 

Good luck to you Jules. Just make sure you have a reputable marine mechanic. I'm in the biz and I have found there is some good ones, some not so good and the guy wants to make it into a make-work project for you. So be careful - seen that. You need a guy that can give you the straight goods. 

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43 minutes ago, Jules said:

We have the income to pay for upgrades.  We just drained a lot of our savings remodeling the new house.   

Not trying to be a pain, but the amount of money drained by these projects is amazing. I have a 46 year old boat and every time you go to fix one thing you uncover 10 more. I went to fix *one circuit breaker* for about $15 and ended up spending about $2000 rewiring the whole boat. All the wire was corroded too far back to shorten and re-use. Unless you have some real connection to the CS33 model like your uncle designed it or something, I would not be going nuts trying to buy one that needs significant work. With old boats and old airplanes, the guy that spends half his cash seems happier than the guy that spends it all and then prays that nothing expensive goes wrong. Unless the boat market is WAY different in Florida than anywhere else, a boat with water damage and a bilge full of oil from who knows where is not going to be fought over like a rare AC Cobra driven by Steve McQueen. I would not offer anything close to their asking price.

YMMV

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Very strong build quality on CS boats. Best the Canadian industry offered at the time. ( Bias talking - I own the 36T). Listen to what the mechanic has to say. Then flip a coin: heads you make an offer, tails you walk. Pay really close attention to what you feel immediately after you uncover the coin. That is your true self talking. 

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Lost in the advice the fact that the seller is 24. Likely he made an impulse buy (whether flipping or dreaming of a refit) and is itching to sell it. I'd suggest working back to your 10K offer or lower by subtracting key future costs discovered from the engine analysis and maybe part of the projected deck cost. That is if you still want it. The owner wants to sell.

btw if the cushions are in good shape, you can wash the covers and also (once it gets hot) wash the foam with a light soap and borax solution and sun dry them. Worked for cushions I once had with a diesel odor

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11 hours ago, Jules said:

And then there's this - it looks to me like the plywood was submerged or whatever microbes ate away the floorboards worked their way forward.  The picture was taken under the sink in the starboard head.

CS33_013.jpg.e3171a55a774e19482fd085e33f3bffc.jpg

White surfaces do a great job of showing a waterline if there has been one. I don't see one, so not submerged.

I agree with the rest that the red stuff is transmission fluid. That just might be due to old, cracked seals and it might leak at a surprising rate and the surprise might come in smoky form. But enough from my list of things I know, but should not.

If your mechanic doesn't find the transmission leak, tell him to keep looking. That's not antifreeze.

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I like a good project and now that there are photos, a lot more clues. Engine is still the wild card. Good for you getting a professional. Based on the outcome of the inspection you will be in a better place to move forward or negotiate further. 

There are some ugly items but they can be fixed as long as you can do it yourself. If you have to hire professionals look for a different boat. Still hate a stinky bilge but pull everything out and scrub or power spray. It can be fixed as long as leaks don't continue. Is it a diamond in the rough or a money pit? Probably a little of both, thanks for keeping everyone updated.

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12 hours ago, Jules said:

And then there's this - it looks to me like the plywood was submerged or whatever microbes ate away the floorboards worked their way forward.  The picture was taken under the sink in the starboard head.

CS33_013.jpg.e3171a55a774e19482fd085e33f3bffc.jpg

When I saw the transducer laying there I thought about how the owner sold us that both speed and depth instruments worked.  Maybe there was a mouse in there spinning transducer the paddle.

Another curiosity was the plywood cover under the V-berth cushions. You could thumb through the laminate sheets like the pages of a book.  They had all been almost completely delaminated.  There was no sign of moisture anywhere.  I've been working with wood for decades and have never seen plywood delaminate so cleanly.

Are they PVC fittings going into the thru-hulls? No flanges on the thru-hulls and no seacocks. I'd want to replace all of them before I took the boat anywhere.....

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4 minutes ago, SailMoore1 said:

Is it a diamond in the rough or a money pit?

Money pit.

The diamond is when somone has fixed all that and then died. It does happen here in God's Waiting Room, but not that often.

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27 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

I agree with the rest that the red stuff is transmission fluid.

The broker sold from the previous owner to the present owner and said the previous owner told them it was water system anti freeze.  Like below.  That makes more sense than transmission fluid magically appearing in one section but not aft or forward from there.

754577.jpg

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29 minutes ago, Fleetwood said:

Are they PVC fittings going into the thru-hulls? No flanges on the thru-hulls and no seacocks. I'd want to replace all of them before I took the boat anywhere.....

Both those through-hulls have valves on them, although only one looks like a real seacock.

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30 minutes ago, SailMoore1 said:

I like a good project and now that there are photos, a lot more clues. Engine is still the wild card. Good for you getting a professional. Based on the outcome of the inspection you will be in a better place to move forward or negotiate further. 

There are some ugly items but they can be fixed as long as you can do it yourself. If you have to hire professionals look for a different boat. Still hate a stinky bilge but pull everything out and scrub or power spray. It can be fixed as long as leaks don't continue. Is it a diamond in the rough or a money pit? Probably a little of both, thanks for keeping everyone updated.

No matter what boat you buy you're going to pour money into it.  We planned for that.  Fact is you can clean out that bilge and go sailing right now.  If the engine checks out then it's a ready-to-sail CS33 for under $15k (out the door).  I'm good with that. 

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8 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

I the long run, it is always less expensive (was going to say cheaper, but boats are never cheap) to buy a boat that is in good shape and well maintained, than to get a bargain and rebuilt it yourself.   The one who puts the money in to do the refit, never gets the return back in money.   They may have a fast boat, or personal satisfaction at a revival, but nobody makes money selling a boat they did a refit on.  

Not true - I have made a little money on all but one of my boats - an unfinished project was the only one I didn't

On one of them I more than doubled my money.

Doing the work yourself and judicious shopping are the keys.

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16 hours ago, Jules said:

And then there's this - it looks to me like the plywood was submerged or whatever microbes ate away the floorboards worked their way forward.  The picture was taken under the sink in the starboard head.

CS33_013.jpg.e3171a55a774e19482fd085e33f3bffc.jpg

When I saw the transducer laying there I thought about how the owner sold us that both speed and depth instruments worked.  Maybe there was a mouse in there spinning transducer the paddle.

Another curiosity was the plywood cover under the V-berth cushions. You could thumb through the laminate sheets like the pages of a book.  They had all been almost completely delaminated.  There was no sign of moisture anywhere.  I've been working with wood for decades and have never seen plywood delaminate so cleanly.

What you are seeing there is the blank plug that you put in to replace and prevent damage to the paddle wheel when hauling the boat.  I suspect that the depth sounder is somewhere else.  These are from an old Signet 1000/2000 system - identical to the one still on my boat.  BTW, I'll give you $50 for that paddle wheel transducer any time you want to get rid of it.  They are scarce as hens' teeth now.  If the 1000/2000 boxes still work I'll buy those too. 

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Not true - I have made a little money on all but one of my boats - an unfinished project was the only one I didn't

On one of them I more than doubled my money.

Doing the work yourself and judicious shopping are the keys.

Agree there is no way one can come out head if they have a yard do the work.  They will bill out labour at roughly 3x the cost and materials will be marked up as well.

But...the real key is quick turnaround time.  Unless you have your own shop to work on it, you will have to pay yard storage fees or lease shop space - both of which can quickly put you into the red.

Even if you have  "free" shop space, if the boat is of any size you will have to pay hauling fees or have your own trucking company. 

Just spit ballin' here, but for a 1 year project say $3k to get the boat to and from your shop and $1500/mo shop rent works out to about $20k.

And if you do have your own free shop space and trucking company, you have to consider the opportunity cost of doing that, which in principal would again set you back $20k.

About the only way I can see to truly make money is to do it yourself and be willing to invest 40 hrs/week of your labour.

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5 hours ago, Jules said:

No matter what boat you buy you're going to pour money into it.  We planned for that.  Fact is you can clean out that bilge and go sailing right now.  If the engine checks out then it's a ready-to-sail CS33 for under $15k (out the door).  I'm good with that. 

Looks a bit neglected but not too bad, gunk in the bilge, meh.. I think its a good call. All that boats are is a maintenance program that you sail in between jobs. The big thing is that the hull, mast, sails, rudder, rigging is fundamentally sound. The engine sounds fine and a bit of WD 40, degreaser and sweat with make a massive difference. 

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9 hours ago, Jules said:
9 hours ago, Importunate Tom said:

I agree with the rest that the red stuff is transmission fluid.

The broker sold from the previous owner to the present owner and said the previous owner told them it was water system anti freeze.  Like below.  That makes more sense than transmission fluid magically appearing in one section but not aft or forward from there.

754577.jpg

OK, I'd buy that explanation if it's not under the transmission.

Sort of. Neither owner got around to cleaning it up?

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2 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

Neither owner got around to cleaning it up?

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.  But what do you expect from an owner who sees a bilge pump as an option?

Back in my everyday sailing days, never did a week go by without pulling up the floorboards.  And if we were out cruising, they came up practically every day. 

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The water level around the transmission in the photo, prop shaft pretty covered would concern me. Getting an oil test as you said your having done is VERY important, if there is any water in the trany fluid know that it will run and about 6 months from now the plates will slip , and depending on the brand, no parts will be availble and your buying a 2K transmission, and if you lucky it will be the same ratio as what you have or your buying a new prop. The moisture inside an engine may not cause trouble for years, but the rust spots on bearing surfaces will lead to failure. 

CS made quite nice boats, but the sum of the parts to make that one nice/safe looks like a lot of money

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After I get the report from the mechanic, we'll take another look at this.  This is the that time in the process it's best to prepare yourself to walk away.  I've been everywhere from "there's no issue that can't be resolved" to "do I really want to take on another project?"  Reading Don Casey's "This Old Boat" has helped put my feet back on Terra Firma.

This morning I sent the mechanic a list of items I want him to price out.  He's meeting with the owner at the boat late this afternoon.  It will be interesting to see what his findings and estimates are.     

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Another vital question:

Do you want to SAIL a boat or FIX a boat?

Corollary: do you want to sail a boat or shop for a boat. At some point it becomes worth paying up so that you actually get onto the water instead of driving around boatyards and arguing with "sellers"...

Cheers,

              W.

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I always like the "for sale with new diesel for $15,000" when it cost them $15,000 to have the engine installed. THAT is the one to buy, essentially getting a free boat with the engine B)

In the current market where people just anchoring old boats and never coming back is an issue, I just cannot see anyone demanding top dollar for an old boat with issues. It doesn't take THAT much poking around to get one for FREE.

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I am with Kent Island Sailor on this.

Its hard to stop looking through the small projects and forget to tally up those hours because they add up quickly.  Buy the boat if you can use it right away so you can do projects on your schedule in between fun instead of buying a project that needs attention before you can even enjoy it.  I personally stay away from true structural needs, and majors issues related to keeping water out of the boat or mechanical.  Outside of those items, you've got a safe boat that will float and get you around the bay while chugging beers.  You can redo cushions, add bilge pumps, and make new floorboards at your leisure if the first items I mentioned are sound.

There is a difference between nice to have upgrades and must do projects can make or break your attitude towards the boat and whether or not you every have any fun with it.  Do you NEED a speed transducer?  No, but its easy enough to add later.  Do you NEED a functioning engine?  Probably. 

You could always  just bolt a small outboard on the transom if being ridiculed by your peers and judged by every other sailor out there doesnt bother you...

 

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So, I am a bit unclear on the exact situation: did you already agree to buy the boat and now discover the problems or did you not finalize the sale yet? If the latter is the case it seem you can use all this to bring down the price to 10K, or walk away. 

To me the keel bolts look really solid. The shaft is probably fine too (the other side is sitting in the water anyway) and the oil pan is fine. Now, if the engine has been running in this small lake, you can be sure that water has been splashing all over. If it is salt water everything made out of metal will be rusting and that crap needs to be replaced sooner rather than later. And since this is a mix of fuel, water and antifreeze, you will be doing some cleaning as well. 

The delaminated plywood is odd. Maybe it has leaked in the area, but a small leak will not do that kind of damage to marine grade plywood. 

So, yes, you have a bit of a mess there, but none seems too worrisome if you can buy her for the right price. The owner sounds like a bit of a moron, but that is what you will have to work with.

My biggest concern would be the deck indeed. After having replaced chunks of wet core on a small sailboat, I have had really enough of wet decks. It is possible to do it, but it is a laborious process with little gratification.

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I've got a sold boats report, two CS33s were sold in Florida, one on 5/17 for $29,250 and one on 2/19 for $22,750.  No idea what the condition on either was but the latter we looked at online and it looked pretty decent but they were asking $29,900. 

For all boats sold over the last 5 years, the average list was $26,972 and the average sold was $23,155.  Average year built was 1982.  For whatever that's worth.  But it's doubtful they were all in amazing shape.       

The mechanic is done now.  Will be interesting to see what he comes back with.

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This boat sounds like the kind of project you need to approach with an open ended budget and no timeline.  If you're in love with the boat, not concerned about how much it may cost when you're done and also like the idea of working on the boat then go for it.  If you're concerned about keeping within a certain budget and will be anxious to actually start sailing then maybe not such a good idea.

Probably a safe bet you'll only know about 65% of the projects you'll end up having to fix.  The thing that stands out to me is what it looked like when you took those pictures.  It would have taken almost no effort for the seller to make it just a little more presentable.  If that's the state it's in when he's trying to sell it how did he care for it when he wasn't trying to sell it? 

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1 hour ago, Hold Fast said:

seems like your head is telling you to run, your heart is looking for reasons to stay. 

Isn't that the way it always is?  I know no matter what we buy I'll be fixing it up.  We bought a house that was perfectly livable and first thing we did was tear out walls.  Go figure.

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2 hours ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

This boat sounds like the kind of project you need to approach with an open ended budget and no timeline.  If you're in love with the boat, not concerned about how much it may cost when you're done and also like the idea of working on the boat then go for it.  If you're concerned about keeping within a certain budget and will be anxious to actually start sailing then maybe not such a good idea.

Probably a safe bet you'll only know about 65% of the projects you'll end up having to fix.  The thing that stands out to me is what it looked like when you took those pictures.  It would have taken almost no effort for the seller to make it just a little more presentable.  If that's the state it's in when he's trying to sell it how did he care for it when he wasn't trying to sell it? 

This^

Kind of like trying to sell a house with dog shit in the middle of the floor. If this is what they do when they KNOW someone is coming..................... :o

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That seems to be the case with most boats for sale. Once they put it on the market they just forget about it.

I once looked at a boat with the broker handling it and there was a turd in the toilet.

The sloppier the boat is, the lower the offer. If it's in the typical mess inside & out, I knock off 20% before looking any further.

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I own a 1980 CS36,  I have found that the boats are very well built and worth some effort to repair.  I both cruse and club race my CS36.  I absolutely love the boat and have found that  the CS36 sails to its rating PHRF 123 in San Francisco Bay and I have no qualms going out the "Gate" in 20+ kts of wind for the weekend or an extended trip south to Monterey.

You mentioned that there seemed to be a blockage between the engine sump/bilge and the keel bilge.  I and not sure on the CS33, but on the CS36 there is no direct connection, although water etc. can flow over the forward sill of the engine sump and make its way to the keel bilge (presumably this design was to keep and engine oil out of the keel bilge and from being discharged overboard via bilge pump).  There is a very strong users group for the CS boats on Yahoo Groups, search CSOA.  Someone on that site probably knows the boat and its history, if not the CS33 owners can give you more information on what to look for in assessing the boat.  Good luck and  be willing to walk away from the deal if it does not make sense to you.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That seems to be the case with most boats for sale. Once they put it on the market they just forget about it.

I once looked at a boat with the broker handling it and there was a turd in the toilet.

The sloppier the boat is, the lower the offer. If it's in the typical mess inside & out, I knock off 20% before looking any further.

Pretty much same thing I've seen in our boat search.  In most cases, it looked like the owner lost interest in the boat and stopped maintaining it and later decided to get rid of it.  I've got pictures of every boat we've looked at and the majority fall into this category.

If all a boat needs is a serious house cleaning and you can get it for a song...

There's little doubt once we get the findings from the mechanic (and we don't run away) we will either be looking at a price reduction or for the owner to fix some things.  The bilge pump is at the top of the list.  Even though it's such a "dry boat". :huh:

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6 hours ago, sansouci30 said:

You mentioned that there seemed to be a blockage between the engine sump/bilge and the keel bilge.  I and not sure on the CS33, but on the CS36 there is no direct connection, although water etc. can flow over the forward sill of the engine sump and make its way to the keel bilge (presumably this design was to keep and engine oil out of the keel bilge and from being discharged overboard via bilge pump).

If the sump under the engine is designed to retain oil and such, then how do you discharge water dripping from the stuffing box while underway?  One of the reasons I became a lift-the-floorboards fanatic was because one time I lifted the floorboards while under power and found a surprisingly full bilge.  The float stuck.  I was shocked at just how much water had accumulated. I learned motoring for hours on end can do that.  It would seem there has to be some way to discharge that water. 

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6 hours ago, Jules said:

Pretty much same thing I've seen in our boat search.  In most cases, it looked like the owner lost interest in the boat and stopped maintaining it and later decided to get rid of it.  I've got pictures of every boat we've looked at and the majority fall into this category.

If all a boat needs is a serious house cleaning and you can get it for a song...

There's little doubt once we get the findings from the mechanic (and we don't run away) we will either be looking at a price reduction or for the owner to fix some things.  The bilge pump is at the top of the list.  Even though it's such a "dry boat". :huh:

 

Do not do this.

It's a conflict of interest for the seller.

Price reduction or walk.

Remember, it's not a good deal if one year from now, you realize you've spent more money than you would have buying the nicest one on the market, and you still have not spent enough time sailing it.

FB- Doug

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6 hours ago, Jules said:

If the sump under the engine is designed to retain oil and such, then how do you discharge water dripping from the stuffing box while underway?  One of the reasons I became a lift-the-floorboards fanatic was because one time I lifted the floorboards while under power and found a surprisingly full bilge.  The float stuck.  I was shocked at just how much water had accumulated. I learned motoring for hours on end can do that.  It would seem there has to be some way to discharge that water. 

The isolated bilge area directly under the engine is for catching any leaking oil/fuel/antifreeze/etc to keep it out of the pumped bilge, it’s a good idea to lay some oil absorbent mat in there and change as needed. The shaft packing shouldn’t be dripping into this area, it should drip into the pumped bilge.

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Our mechanic would have to do the work but I agree, it's best to get a price reduction. 

We got a price to do the mechanicals (fluid changes, zincs, leak fixes, impeller, motor mounts, etc) and install the missing sump pumps.  All total it would be under $3K.  If I do it, a lot less.  After that about all you really got is the deck issue and some general cleanup.  But I'm still waiting on the oil analysis. 

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16 minutes ago, Jules said:

Our mechanic would have to do the work but I agree, it's best to get a price reduction. 

We got a price to do the mechanicals (fluid changes, zincs, leak fixes, impeller, motor mounts, etc) and install the missing sump pumps.  All total it would be under $3K.  If I do it, a lot less.  After that about all you really got is the deck issue and some general cleanup.  But I'm still waiting on the oil analysis. 

Fix what leaks exactly?

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4 hours ago, Jules said:

The secondary fuel filter is leaking.

By secondary do you mean the little one mounted on the engine?

If so, a new filter comes with a new seal and should fix that one.

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

No, this one. The mechanic said it needs a new filter and bowl.

20190317_141527.thumb.jpg.3b57d690be589a77f9ff57e6e05aa2de.jpg

Get a Racor - image.png.87b2465aa5b888568acbe4a5f74d1aa8.pngThose cartridge filters suck.

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If you take on this monster, after two years those other $20-40K boats will look like a bargain. You just are buying the shell of a hull and a rig. The rest is suspect.

It is very hard to take a stuffed boat back to its original condition.  I think the soft deck is the deal breaker for me and then there is a risk no matter what the mechanic tells you, that some time in the short future a new engine will be needed. Where I am from boats with defects like that  end up selling in the $2-5KAUD range. There is a guy  just down from me that picked up a boat like yours a few weeks ago for $1.. keep on hunting I reckon. From time to time boats come up that just need cosmetic work, but you really need to know what you are doing to identify them, otherwise you are running the risk that you will need to spend big dollars to get the thing seaworthy.

Any chance we could see the best of this boat ?

Does this boat really deserve some of the best years of your life to restore it ?

Will you love it like a child ?

3R

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I refer you to this link by Lydia.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sailing/General/Defiance-the-original?page=1

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.

1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.

2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.

3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)

4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.

5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.

6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!

7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!

So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If you are going to be paying mechanics to change filters and zincs, this boat will be a disaster for you. This is turning $20 jobs into $200 jobs and $200 jobs into $2000 jobs left and right.

After you mentally accept paying someone to do the job, you must recognize the task of being the general contractor on the project in simply finding, scheduling (and re-scheduling) folks to do the job (and re-do the mess that the previous 'expert' did to the job).  At that point, it isn't even about the money so much as your time, your hassle factor and the overall total time taken to get the job(s) done.   So far, it IS about the money and that alone should be sufficient to send you scurrying elsewhere. If you're a boat builder or marine tradesman, you 'might' have the skills but I assume you also have a 'regular' life, job, family, significant other--for now....

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On 3/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, Jules said:

I don't know the answer to that.  I probed around with my finger but couldn't really tell. 

My mind can write checks like they are going out of style.  As my body ages, more and more of those checks remain uncashed.  My body is working overtime to shut down the check writer and, well... maybe it's time to take a nap.

Are you buying this boat to sail, or to work on it?  A 33 foot sailboat for $10,000+ should be in pretty darn good shape.  Unless you're set on a CS 33.  I keep seeing ads that say "only XX of these were built" etc.  Not sure rarity should be a driving factor in purchasing a sailboat that you actually want to sail and not work on constantly.  A replacement motor for that beast is going to run you $8k - $12k for a new one, and generally speaking it isn't worth putting in a used one.

A 5 ft long section of deck likely will turn into a bigger project once you start peeling it back.  And unless you want to paint the boat, you're doing it on the inside.  Upside down.  In sucksville, population you.

So - is this going to be a project boat, or a sailing boat?  Are you ready to more than double your purchase price to fix it?

I mean.... a ready to sail off boat is only going to be a little bit more up front, and a whole lot more fun in the long run.

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Jules, 

The kid simply over paid for the boat, don't be tempted to overpay as well. My biggest concern is the schedule 80 90's added above the through hulls. Yes you can shut the valve when a leak develops, but what if you are not on the boat? I design water re-use systems and use a lot of sch 80 - i wouldn't put it near a boat. The bigger question for me is - what else did someone decide to buy at home depot / lowes, instead of the right stuff. This combined with lack of maintenance in the last few years, plus the boat being stripped of a lot of stuff means many many hours, and a significant marine parts bill.

I'm not against super cheap boats, but for me they have to have a huge buffer built into the buy price. For example I have just bought a 1973 Irwin 30 Competition for $1, without the very questionable A4 for $1k which I declined.. Very good cruising and racing sails with not a lot of use. Thru hulls all excellent, with newish ss clamps. Electrical is good, although previous had owner had started a remodel and the mast wiring will take some detective work. Very dry. Prep work had been 90% completed for a deck / cabin paint job. Teak veneer had already been stripped off doors / bulkhead / lockers etc for new laminate.

I am going to put in an electric drive, will cost me about $1,500 including flooded lead acid batteries but it works for me because our lake is only 4 x 5 miles. But in my career I have extensive electrical engineering/ electrical, plumbing and carpentry experience. I also have cnc and 3d printing equipment to get me out of a bind (don't laugh too much guys, 3d printing in petg / nylon composites can be incredibly strong / hardwearing). I hate painting and painting prep - but my wife doesn't mind it, almost to the point of enjoying it (sick!). 

Even with the Irwin being basically solid, I am looking at 2 - 3k expenses just to turn it into a day sailor, possibly without functional electronics (I really dont care about that). Plus labor - about 300 hours worth.

But wife and I enjoy that - I work 60 - 80 hours per week and need an outlet. Our marina does not have any issues with owners doing work so long as no environmental pollution. We live 2 mins from the marina, and are happy to do 2 - 3 hours each most nights rather than watching tv. 

And when we decide to sell it in 5 - 10 years time we will be lucky to get 3k for it. That's our choice - we enjoy it. Apart from a messy job removing the gas tank, throttles, dials, no longer needed hoses etc which took about 8 hours, the work will be relatively pleasant for us.

On the plus side, the stern sits quite a bit higher now :) Overall we should experience about a 300lb net weight loss which should be interesting in social racing.

Good luck with your decision.

 

 

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Look at this boat:

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11009

Not saying to need to go buy that exact boat, but you can, for what you are willing to pay, get a well sorted boat owned by a knowledgeable owner that can sail TODAY.

The boat you are looking at seems to have gone though periods of clueless ownership and was also at one point perhaps abandoned and stripped for parts.

 

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Look at this boat:

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11009

Not saying to need to go buy that exact boat, but you can, for what you are willing to pay, get a well sorted boat owned by a knowledgeable owner that can sail TODAY.

The boat you are looking at seems to have gone though periods of clueless ownership and was also at one point perhaps abandoned and stripped for parts.

 

That's a handsome boat. Someone is going to get a good deal. If all is good in the spots the photo's don't show.

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Unless I am very much off the mark, Jules and maybe his wife, have fallen in love with this boat.  Not with CS 33s per se, but this particular boat.  And like a love sick teenager, he is deaf and blind to anyone suggesting that his love is irrational and he could do better.  I'm reminded of the old "Lost in Space" TV series.

"Danger Will Robinson, Danger"...warning which Will Robinson typically ignored.

That Corvette is a beaut!

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10 hours ago, Third Reef said:

Any chance we could see the best of this boat ?

When I look at anything I'm going to buy (larger ticket items) I look for the worst and take pictures so I can take time later to get a better look.  But to describe the best of this boat I'd have to start with my first impression. 

As I walked up to it I immediately liked it.  That doesn't happen very often. 

The hull was clean, almost no nicks or scratches.  The deck had very little crazing.

The sails are in very good shape. 

Roller furling works fine.

Winches (all Lewmar) all work fine.

Halyards and sheets are in decent shape.

Canvas is in reasonably good shape.  Dodger vinyl is clear.

The only sign of leaks was one at the starboard chainplate which was sealed by Mack and at the mast, which still leaks.  First time we were there it poured for about an hour.  We took that time to check for leaks everywhere.

Bukh engines are said to be the easiest diesel engines to maintain and repair.  And when I heard it, it purred.

All indications were the boat was sail ready. 

 

According to the broker (he is getting the receipts for us):

The bottom was barrier coated in late 2016.

CS33_016.jpg.png.jpg.480195b9ce8d4e2f4b5728365ecea68e.jpg

The lead keel was dropped, inspected and rebedded.  New stainless nuts and washers were installed.  

A new bronze prop shaft was installed at the same time along with cutless bearing and shaft-to-motor coupling.

CS33_017.jpg.9fe76118604f9819c2d09523d75093e3.jpg

Shortly after that the mast was unstepped and Mack Sails gave it a thorough going over and replaced all the turnbuckles and the forestay and added a new mast light, VHF antenna and Windex.  At the same time the chainplates were inspected.

CS33_015.jpg.png.efb86543966755865f317ee06dff0cfa.png

A new water heater was added in 2016 and new water lines installed.

The floorboards forward of the mast are new.

This was all done by the previous owner.  Story is he got a new girlfriend.  She hated sailing so he bought a Hatteras and sold the sailboat to the present owner in Dec 2018.

 

According to the marine mechanic:

The motor and transmission both checked out but it's time for usual maintenance to be performed.

Fix fuel filter leak.

Motor mounts need to be replaced.

Freshwater flush valve should be installed.

 

Oil analysis just arrived...
 

 

 

 

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Jules is a real teaser...first he paints this boat as a dirty skeezer. 

Now he says she looks great in the bright light of day (shows us little glimpses, but not the entire bod)

And he's just got the report on her from the health department, which says........?

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Hi Jules,  Looks like a pretty good buy. As others have said CSs are very well designed and built (at least while Ray Wall was there). I think a lot of it comes down to how handy you are.  Sounds like you are retired and have time, but are you able and willing to put sweat equity (that you're unlikely to ever get back) into the boat. If so and if you plan to keep the boat for a good while, go for it.

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26 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

Jules is a real teaser...first he paints this boat as a dirty skeezer. 

Now he says she looks great in the bright light of day (shows us little glimpses, but not the entire bod)

And he's just got the report on her from the health department, which says........?

Oh come now.  Why would anyone ask if anything was a deal killer that looked great?  I was only asking about those issues I pointed out early on.  Then this thread took on a life of its own

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We all like a new boat thread, what should I do about this thread. There is a thread that I created "Decision, Decisions" in CA that I have gotten a lot of great input from. But then again I had made up my mind on the boat that I was going to purchase. Other than that, this is a great place to be for some good advice, and also some good natured humour. 

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11 minutes ago, monsoon said:

Hi Jules,  Looks like a pretty good buy. As others have said CSs are very well designed and built (at least while Ray Wall was there). I think a lot of it comes down to how handy you are.  Sounds like you are retired and have time, but are you able and willing to put sweat equity (that you're unlikely to ever get back) into the boat. If so and if you plan to keep the boat for a good while, go for it.

Friends call me a jack of all trades and a master of one.  Neighbors call me when they need to know how to do something.  I'll just leave it at that.

But, yes, I love to work on things.  If I was 20 years younger and living back north (where there is rarely killer heat) I'd be jumping all over this boat.  I know I won't just sail, I'll have to jump in and get my hands dirty.  I'll want that bilge and engine compartment spotless and the mechanicals purring like a kitten.  But age has a way of humbling you so I have to be as realistic as I can.  Like that's ever going to be a factor. B)

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Based on following this thread, the only thing I'd be worried about is that soft spot on the deck. If you are a luthier and woodworker, I'd imagine that you have the meticulous patience to fix it and the interior woodwork yourself.

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1 minute ago, woahboy said:

We all like a new boat thread, what should I do about this thread. There is a thread that I created "Decision, Decisions" in CA that I have gotten a lot of great input from. But then again I had made up my mind on the boat that I was going to purchase. Other than that, this is a great place to be for some good advice, and also some good natured humour. 

Agree totally!  That's why I'm here.  I went from high as a kite to feet landed firmly on the ground thanks to the help here.  I am 100% appreciative for all the sound advice.

The oil analysis came back "perfect" in the words of the mechanic.  Only abnormal level was iron but without knowing how long that oil has been sitting there, there's no way to tell what the iron content means.  I'm just thankful the owner rarely if ever takes the boat out.

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3 minutes ago, Jules said:

I'll want that bilge and engine compartment spotless

After cleaning and painting my bilge, I just can't abide ANY water on the shiny bilge paint.  The first mate isn't happy about "outside showers only" rule

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