Paul Koch 296 Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 On 3/26/2021 at 11:02 PM, Pantouf said: Hey Paul, it has gone quiet a bit on the 50 no. 1. Has it been delivered now? And can you give us some more info on it? I.e. how did the weight turn out? Are there any photos with the mast on? Or even better: with sails on? The first 50 has just arrived in Mallorca and should be sailing in the next couple of weeks . It was delayed due the crazy shipping situation at the moment , super difficult and expensive to find space on ships out of Asia . In the meantime the second 50 destined to go to Australia is well advanced and also will be sailing in a couple of months . Same goes for the 40 , first one well advanced , second one catching up , third one started construction . Photos in Valencia ! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 89 Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Are those bow pulpits carbon fiber? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 42 minutes ago, EarthBM said: Are those bow pulpits carbon fiber? Yes , everything is carbon fiber ! Hand rails , seats , pulpits , solar panel mounts , davits , the whole boat actually ! Beams , rudder , daggerboard , daggerboard case , folding struts etc , any small high load parts are prepreg cured in a autoclave . www.triaccomposites.com 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Ah great! I am going to Palma de Mallorca soon. Maybe I find the boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trimariner 7 Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Auckland to Tauranga race won by the Rapido 60' Trimaran Romanza! "The Love Boat" Woohoo, Cheers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Spotted in Palma de Mallorca. Initially I though Forest Gump and his shrimping boat "Jenny" arrived in Palma, but it is the Rapido 50 (I blanked the name of the boat, for privacy reasons). It also looks a bit weird with that short, temporary mast. I am hoping to see someone on board soon, so I can maybe ask to see the boat. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eric1207 208 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 A friend with a Corsair F27 trimaran was not allowed to rent a normal slip at a large (north of Seattle) marina with his boat in the folded position (beam 8'-6"). A clear bias against multihulls. I wonder if Europe has any similar bias. I know they charge by the square meter for multis, and that is reasonable in a med moor situation as pictured above. I hope the Rapido was charged for the space she actually occupies and not had an experience similar to my friend's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,824 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 39 minutes ago, eric1207 said: A friend with a Corsair F27 trimaran was not allowed to rent a normal slip at a large (north of Seattle) marina with his boat in the folded position (beam 8'-6"). A clear bias against multihulls. I wonder if Europe has any similar bias. I know they charge by the square meter for multis, and that is reasonable in a med moor situation as pictured above. I hope the Rapido was charged for the space she actually occupies and not had an experience similar to my friend's. Never heard of that before. What marina? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mowgli 18 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 4 hours ago, eric1207 said: A friend with a Corsair F27 trimaran was not allowed to rent a normal slip at a large (north of Seattle) marina with his boat in the folded position (beam 8'-6"). A clear bias against multihulls. I wonder if Europe has any similar bias. I know they charge by the square meter for multis, and that is reasonable in a med moor situation as pictured above. I hope the Rapido was charged for the space she actually occupies and not had an experience similar to my friend's. I never had that before only square meter price or catamaran price what is 1,5x. If you fold you are only priced for the square meter you use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 89 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 9 hours ago, eric1207 said: A friend with a Corsair F27 trimaran was not allowed to rent a normal slip at a large (north of Seattle) marina with his boat in the folded position (beam 8'-6"). A clear bias against multihulls. I wonder if Europe has any similar bias. I know they charge by the square meter for multis, and that is reasonable in a med moor situation as pictured above. I hope the Rapido was charged for the space she actually occupies and not had an experience similar to my friend's. Possibly because Fboats are not stable in the water when folded? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdazey 83 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 At least not in the way that Rapidos and Dragonflys are. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eric1207 208 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 One of the Anacortes, Washington state marinas. He didn't say which one and it was at least 4 or maybe many more years ago. I'd have to ask him which one it was. I do know of an F31 that was kept folded in a marina about 7 years ago, perhaps only in the summer though. Sides of the amas had bottom paint. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 10 hours ago, EarthBM said: Possibly because Fboats are not stable in the water when folded? Good point. I wonder how stable this Rapido 50 is when folded like this in a marina and it has the actual mast on. Judging the mooring, I think it is a mooring for 20+ metre boats, judging from the other yachts there (most like 62, 65, 68 ft). So knowing Mallorca or generally in Spain, this Rapido 50 probably pays the m2, but at the rate of that size mooring. I guess we are talking like 35.000 euros a year or so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hannibalhouse 31 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 “Initially I though Forest Gump and his shrimping boat "Jenny" arrived inPalma, but it is the Rapido 50” Really funny comment. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rasputin22 3,088 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 7 hours ago, hannibalhouse said: “Initially I though Forest Gump and his shrimping boat "Jenny" arrived inPalma, but it is the Rapido 50” Really funny comment. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
he b gb 190 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 12 hours ago, Pantouf said: Good point. I wonder how stable this Rapido 50 is when folded like this in a marina and it has the actual mast on. Judging the mooring, I think it is a mooring for 20+ metre boats, judging from the other yachts there (most like 62, 65, 68 ft). So knowing Mallorca or generally in Spain, this Rapido 50 probably pays the m2, but at the rate of that size mooring. I guess we are talking like 35.000 euros a year or so. Going by the photos I would be thinking that the Rapido would be very stable compared to monos in a marina. I’ve seen plenty of monos laid over and rigs tangled in not so extreme conditions. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 10 hours ago, he b gb said: Going by the photos I would be thinking that the Rapido would be very stable compared to monos in a marina. I’ve seen plenty of monos laid over and rigs tangled in not so extreme conditions. I think the opposite @he b gb; it makes no sense what you say. Rigs of monohulls getting entangled is usually because of a difference in motion from one and the next boat. But no way a monohull will blow over, as they have tonnes of keel hanging under them. There is no keel or any form of weight on a trimaran and the mast is probably quite "chunky, wing like" (looking at the Rapido 60). So my guess is it will actually blow over in (very) strong winds, rather than just get entangled. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted April 18 Author Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, Pantouf said: I think the opposite @he b gb; it makes no sense what you say. Rigs of monohulls getting entangled is usually because of a difference in motion from one and the next boat. But no way a monohull will blow over, as they have tonnes of keel hanging under them. There is no keel or any form of weight on a trimaran and the mast is probably quite "chunky, wing like" (looking at the Rapido 60). So my guess is it will actually blow over in (very) strong winds, rather than just get entangled. It will have the rig on it in a couple of weeks . It also has a couple of ballast tanks in the floats that are self draining so can take on a couple of tons of water for extreme weather . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 89 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 It’s never been a problem on my Dragonfly folded in the dock. There is more than enough stability. For freak winds I had thought about tying halyards to the dock or some line that goes a little above deck level. But it never came close to even thinking I need it. Stability increases very rapidly even with small increase in beam, and most mono docks are plenty wide for unfolding the amas 2-3 feet or so. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Monkey 1,744 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 On 4/16/2021 at 2:06 AM, Pantouf said: Spotted in Palma de Mallorca. Initially I though Forest Gump and his shrimping boat "Jenny" arrived in Palma, but it is the Rapido 50 (I blanked the name of the boat, for privacy reasons). It also looks a bit weird with that short, temporary mast. I am hoping to see someone on board soon, so I can maybe ask to see the boat. I have to admit, while incredibly practical, this looks hilarious. It’s like living inside a batting cage at the dock! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
he b gb 190 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 ^^ ha, fill the back and front in and voila, no need for mozzie screens! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 1,020 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 4 hours ago, Monkey said: I have to admit, while incredibly practical, this looks hilarious. It’s like living inside a batting cage at the dock! There's compromise in just about everything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 229 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 She will be impressive when someone figures out the graphics Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 8 hours ago, Monkey said: I have to admit, while incredibly practical, this looks hilarious. It’s like living inside a batting cage at the dock! I have to admit, that my enthusiasms for the Rapido 50 has diminished a little bit seeing the boat like this. last Saturday I could hear some yachties walking passed, saying: what the fu&$ is that!!! Maybe if there was a mast on it, it would look more attractive or impressive. I have stood behind the boat several times now, observing it and can only wonder how easy or probably not easy it is to unfold and fold leaving and entering a marina. I can see red and green lines, the green ones going up to the little mast, that seem to lift the beams. And red ones that seem to control the float tilting. Well, that is my guess. But then there are more short green lines on the floats, on either side of the beams too. It also looks you cannot get into the floats with the boat folded, as there are tubes holding the trampolines, running over the hatches. I hope to find someone on board soon, so I can maybe ask a bit more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 12 hours ago, Monkey said: I have to admit, while incredibly practical, this looks hilarious. It’s like living inside a batting cage at the dock! Well, Monkey, you sound like the little boy who was honest enough to exclaim that the Emperor was indeed naked! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Monkey 1,744 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 1 hour ago, boardhead said: Well, Monkey, you sound like the little boy who was honest enough to exclaim that the Emperor was indeed naked! I would still take one in a heartbeat! I imagine it’ll spend most nights on a hook or mooring ball unfolded. Having the ability to fold up and fit in a mono hull space is well worth being funny looking for a little while! I wasn’t criticizing it when I made the batting cage joke, just being honest. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eastern motors 130 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 I'm sure they'll build you non-folder for the same price. You're not really rich until you leave your folding tri unfolded in Palma because it looks better! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Monkey 1,744 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 2 hours ago, eastern motors said: I'm sure they'll build you non-folder for the same price. You're not really rich until you leave your folding tri unfolded in Palma because it looks better! That’s when you’ve got proper fuck off money! Lol! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Last Saturday, I saw someone on board the Rapido 50 in Palma. But, as I was carrying bags of shopping for our pending departure to Cadiz, I could not stop for long. I briefly spoke to the guy who looks after the boat and who has been involved in this project since they started building her. As I need to deliver a yacht from Lanzarote to Palma early May, I will be back in Palma in about three weeks, and we agreed that I would then get a tour of the boat and spend whatever time I want on it, to check it out. If there is anybody with any questions they want me to ask or details they want me to look at, let me know. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted April 30 Author Share Posted April 30 Some new renderings of the Rapido 40 interior 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
2flit 113 Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 For those interested, I ran across this Rapido 60 for sale here: https://anasazi-ltda.com/marine-brokerage ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdazey 83 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Has anyone here actually placed an order for a Rapido? Apparently Paul is doing well as the next slot has a delivery of 1st quarter 2022. I have to say that he was very quick responding to my email asking for info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veeger 396 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 On 5/7/2021 at 7:45 PM, 2flit said: For those interested, I ran across this Rapido 60 for sale here: https://anasazi-ltda.com/marine-brokerage ... Was this the one that lost her rig in the ARC? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
2flit 113 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 On 4/19/2021 at 12:33 AM, Paul Koch said: It will have the rig on it in a couple of weeks . It also has a couple of ballast tanks in the floats that are self draining so can take on a couple of tons of water for extreme weather . Hey Paul, It's been three weeks, is the rig up yet? I was also curious, why would one want to take on a 'couple tons' of water in the amas? How does this improve heavy weather sailing? I'm asking because we try to get all the weight we can out of our amas in our 40 footer. (As per Ian's recommendation) We've been in 10 meter seas in the Tasman and winds up to 60kn gusting 80-85kn going to windward and also boat speeds above 16kn in 4 meter seas beam reaching with beam on seas... are you saying that we would somehow have better off with added water weight in the amas? Thanks for your time explaining this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 89 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I was wandering myself… perhaps Paul meant in the weather ama for more righting moment? Wouldn’t want to Chinese gybe in those conditions… is there a scoop for getting those 2t into the ama? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 1,020 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 I think that was ballast for when folded in a marina. Be really handy for hurricanes. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 5 hours ago, 2flit said: Hey Paul, It's been three weeks, is the rig up yet? I was also curious, why would one want to take on a 'couple tons' of water in the amas? How does this improve heavy weather sailing? I'm asking because we try to get all the weight we can out of our amas in our 40 footer. (As per Ian's recommendation) We've been in 10 meter seas in the Tasman and winds up to 60kn gusting 80-85kn going to windward and also boat speeds above 16kn in 4 meter seas beam reaching with beam on seas... are you saying that we would somehow have better off with added water weight in the amas? Thanks for your time explaining this. The ballast tanks are purely there to improve stability when folded in the marina in case of a big storm , they are meant to filled with a hose through a deck fitting and drain by opening a valve as the tank is above the water line . about 1100 kg each side . Not designed to be sailed full of water ! Rig is coming but held up slightly due issues caused by covid. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 4 hours ago, Paul Koch said: The ballast tanks are purely there to improve stability when folded in the marina in case of a big storm , they are meant to filled with a hose through a deck fitting and drain by opening a valve as the tank is above the water line . about 1100 kg each side . Not designed to be sailed full of water ! Rig is coming but held up slightly due issues caused by covid. The stability curve on that configuration would be fascinating to see! Adding capsize moment to both amas to improve stability - hmm - interesting. Water ballast in the main hull, static, folded in the marina I get - in the amas? - not so much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 1 hour ago, boardhead said: The stability curve on that configuration would be fascinating to see! Adding capsize moment to both amas to improve stability - hmm - interesting. Water ballast in the main hull, static, folded in the marina I get - in the amas? - not so much. Righting moment actually increases significantly , at least 25% according to the designers ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hump101 445 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 1 hour ago, boardhead said: The stability curve on that configuration would be fascinating to see! Adding capsize moment to both amas to improve stability - hmm - interesting. Water ballast in the main hull, static, folded in the marina I get - in the amas? - not so much. 16 minutes ago, Paul Koch said: Righting moment actually increases significantly , at least 25% according to the designers ! As long as a margin remains between the float volume and total mass, then adding water to the floats will increase stability, and also (probably more important in a storm) increase the angle of maximum stability, so providing maximum stability at an angle where windage on the rig will be reducing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 And better than that 25%+ with the same amount of water in the main whilst keeping the amas dry and their flotation intact - but 25%+ better than what? Like I said, the stability curve on that configuration would be fascinating to see - did the designers generate one as it might be reassuring for the neighbors. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 - neighbors in the marina Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 13 hours ago, boardhead said: And better than that 25%+ with the same amount of water in the main whilst keeping the amas dry and their flotation intact - but 25%+ better than what? Like I said, the stability curve on that configuration would be fascinating to see - did the designers generate one as it might be reassuring for the neighbors. A couple of points , we don't have space in the main hull for 2200 litres of water . And if we did , we would have to pump it out to remove it . The Ama's are dry as the water is put in dedicated ballast tanks designed for this purpose . They self drain after opening a drain valve .The designers did a stability curve which shows a 25% increase in folded righting moment from no water in the tanks to tanks full . They are purely there for extreme weather in the marina , folded stability is very good without the water in the tanks . 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hannibalhouse 31 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 Are you working on a folding sixty footer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eastern motors 130 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 1 hour ago, hannibalhouse said: Are you working on a folding sixty footer? Or at least boards in the floats? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pepa Pig 24 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/10/2021 at 4:56 AM, Paul Koch said: The ballast tanks are purely there to improve stability when folded in the marina in case of a big storm , they are meant to filled with a hose through a deck fitting and drain by opening a valve as the tank is above the water line . about 1100 kg each side . Not designed to be sailed full of water ! Rig is coming but held up slightly due issues caused by covid. That is not what I was told. The rig could have been there months ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 7 hours ago, eastern motors said: Or at least boards in the floats? No folding 60 coming ! Rapido 50 #2 has C foils being fitted to the floats in addition to the main hull daggerboard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 As long as you fill both ama tanks - and they are full - it will be the same as if it was in the main hull.... total weight + the beam and the ama volume will provide the stability -more weigt same arm - more stability. Also being a tri - the amas maybe sits better in the water - so that the boat wont tip sideways so easy - as it could with high position amas. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kalimotxo 31 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/9/2021 at 11:22 PM, 2flit said: I was also curious, why would one want to take on a 'couple tons' of water in the amas? How does this improve heavy weather sailing? I'm asking because we try to get all the weight we can out of our amas in our 40 footer. (As per Ian's recommendation) We've been in 10 meter seas in the Tasman and winds up to 60kn gusting 80-85kn going to windward and also boat speeds above 16kn in 4 meter seas beam reaching with beam on seas... are you saying that we would somehow have better off with added water weight in the amas? Thanks for your time explaining this. I may be mistaken but I believe some ORMAs have been fitted with watertanks (central hull aft (??)) to race shorthanded in those conditions (bows up(?) a bit more inertia ??). 10 m seas and 60 knots my personal trim guide advises slippers fireplace and hot coco. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 So you have to pump the water INTO the amas as opposed to OUT OF the main hull - need to make sure the batteries are topped off for adding stability. If the 2200 litres (4840 pounds) adds 25% to the righting moment and the folded configuration is constant then that 25% increase represents a 25% increase in the weight (ball park). That would suggest the unbalasted boat weight to be 19,360 pounds - is that right as I did not spot a displacement number on the Principal Characteristics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 If I recall correctly the ORMA water ballast tanks were to add power punching through waves upwind - 18 knots in open water close hauled - awesome! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hannibalhouse 31 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 No folding 60 coming? Come on, man! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kalimotxo 31 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, boardhead said: If I recall correctly the ORMA water ballast tanks were to add power punching through waves upwind - 18 knots in open water close hauled - awesome! I fiddled with waterbladders on my seacart singlehand on a long long tack in short steep baltic waves. Much smaller scale obviously but the boat does go better. Plus I gain about 1 tonne meter righting moment. Edited May 12 by Kalimotxo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 89 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 2 hours ago, Kalimotxo said: I fiddled with waterbladders on my seacart singlehand on a long long tack in short steep baltic waves. Much smaller scale obviously but the boat does go better. Plus I gain about 1 tonne meter righting moment. How did you do it, practically? Any pics? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 The water ballast brings aboard the crew's righting moment without the crew's weight. ORMA 60's were raced single and double handed as well as fully crewed. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 And then, for that screaming reach you can toss the water overboard - not so easy to dump the crew 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kalimotxo 31 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 27 minutes ago, boardhead said: And then, for that screaming reach you can toss the water overboard - not so easy to dump the crew I tried. 1 hour ago, EarthBM said: How did you do it, practically? Any pics? I got 6 heavy duty waterbags 150 litres each ( ~40 US gallons (?) rally expedition equipment from my cousin I can strap anywhere. Discharge gravity; filling I tried with snorkels and failed spectacularly. Then my farmermate from winterstorage gave me a pump he uses to fill drinking troughs(?) and that works well. No short tacking though Can’t get to my boat for another five weeks because covuidrestrictions. Then I’ll rig it and provide pictures. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 Water ballast is a good option for a trimaran - that is sailed shorthanded - if you can make a good system for it. Its one of many options that make a trimaran so exiting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patzefran 10 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 1 hour ago, SeaGul said: Water ballast is a good option for a trimaran - that is sailed shorthanded - if you can make a good system for it. Its one of many options that make a trimaran so exiting. Beware your mast is sized for the increased righting moment ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 On 5/12/2021 at 3:45 AM, SeaGul said: As long as you fill both ama tanks - and they are full - it will be the same as if it was in the main hull.... total weight + the beam and the ama volume will provide the stability -more weigt same arm - more stability. Also being a tri - the amas maybe sits better in the water - so that the boat wont tip sideways so easy - as it could with high position amas. As in - the trick is to maximize the horizontal righting arm between the center of buoyancy and the center of gravity - right! So as you sink the platform the waterline on all three hulls approaches maximum beam and length and should result in a more rapid increase in flotation as the leeward ama is depressed. Unlike a monohull with a deep keel the righting arm will not increase as the angle of heel increases but the initial stability is better. I guess we have all seen the videos of freak winds striking a marina with devastating results to all kinds of craft - sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 3 hours ago, patzefran said: Beware your mast is sized for the increased righting moment ! That why I said - shorthanded -then you will not reach the max of the mast loads usually as the boat is lighter than normal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 89 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 29 minutes ago, SeaGul said: That why I said - shorthanded -then you will not reach the max of the mast loads usually as the boat is lighter than normal. Have you used it? And if so, what actual system did you use? When you are short handed in the kind of wind that requires windward ama ballast you probably want a system that’s not very cumbersome. Can you actually get the pump to draw water when under way? How do you keep the snorkel submerged? And does it work well in waves? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 16 hours ago, EarthBM said: Have you used it? And if so, what actual system did you use? When you are short handed in the kind of wind that requires windward ama ballast you probably want a system that’s not very cumbersome. Can you actually get the pump to draw water when under way? How do you keep the snorkel submerged? And does it work well in waves? Havent tested - the tank has to be in the upper part of the ama - so the water just pours out by gravity. To fill - use a pipe that can be lowered in the water at speed to fill. Wouldnt make any hole under the waterline. It should be more than one volume. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 But - to think about water ballast again; is there any new tris that use this for sailing? It would be for upwind sailing - one argument is to push through the waves - or less need to reef - more total power. But if you are shorthanded it might be a better strategy to reef - one reef in the main will equal a lot water ballast - so like mine 35ft tri would need about 300kg ballast. The boat will be significant faster without 300kgs - and much easier to handle with 1 reef. So my 2. thought is that its not worth the complexity. The punch through argument - if you need to reef you will have a lot of power in the boat - the lee ama will be able to cut through waves rather good anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kalimotxo 31 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 All true. My thing is not too cumbersome. Feed hose along the outboard. I went out in 15 knots plus and knew I would beating into the wind the first part of the day I just took on water while leaving my berth. Before tacking ease traveller a lot and open valve. just copied from a system on a mini proto I found on youtube. Limited myself to three finnsailors on the windward float to keep mast and bulkhead in one piece. My boat is a little bit faster and more exciting than reefed early. Made the drawing to print a snorkel that I can turn 180 and clamp to my outboardtrack with a little lever to decrease system weight. Not worth pursuing with vaccines and stuff. Some light wind days (10 knots) alone on a very light boat were most beautiful sailing days though. I apologise for the thread hijack. Just some bored tinkering. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 The whole water ballast subject is really only beneficial to light, strong high performance multihulls like the Sea Cart or ORMA 60 sailing short/eingle handed to add righting moment/punch - upwind. For the vast majority, especially production multis the better key to improved overall performance is reducing weight by any means possible - they already have a surfeit of mass for upwind inertia. I also apologize for the thread hijack but this discussion just kind of spun off the marina ballast concept. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 1,020 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 My water ballast experience is on the proa, where a bit is all it takes and it's always on the right side of the boat and on the G-32, where it's necessary a good bit of the time and short tacking when it's windy is challenging. On the proa, the ballast is pumped in with a gallon-a-stroke pump and it's pretty easy. On the G-32 the ballast (600 lbs of it) is filled and drained by opposing Elvstrom bailers. The system is brilliant, but draining the leeward tank takes more speed than I often do upwind. It's easy to drain the weather tank, but things get a bit squirrelly sometimes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 The Seacart 30 is abit narrower has bigger floats and are stiffer constructionwise than my boat - so it make more sense to use water ballast when shorthanded. Russels proa has an obvious advantage by always waving the same weather hull - that can use water-ballast - and I guess the G-32 needs it to punch around a beat and for stability with narrow beam. So water ballast can be a good option to add on some boats but one has the look at the parameters for each boat. And back to the Rapido; have you consider to use water ballast under sailing as an option? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mundt 247 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 A trimaran should never need water ballast, that would be in direct opposition to its reason for existence, no? Having it available when folded at the dock is interesting, I guess if it's windy enough to somehow flip a boat that's tied within a slip, that would be a hell of a blow... A Reynolds 33 got lifted and flipped by a waterspout once, i guess if you knew a hurricane was coming you could go down and kind of sink your boat to stabilize it but doesn't that put some heavy stress on the structure? If part of the ballast system failed at sea that would be a bummer. Anyway, that's a very cool boat, if somebody wants to buy one for me I'll file regular reports. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 16 hours ago, SeaGul said: The Seacart 30 is abit narrower has bigger floats and are stiffer constructionwise than my boat - so it make more sense to use water ballast when shorthanded. Russels proa has an obvious advantage by always waving the same weather hull - that can use water-ballast - and I guess the G-32 needs it to punch around a beat and for stability with narrow beam. So water ballast can be a good option to add on some boats but one has the look at the parameters for each boat. And back to the Rapido; have you consider to use water ballast under sailing as an option? No we do not intend that the water ballast tanks to be used for sailing . they are just forward of the front beam so would be counter productive to use them while sailing . It is the right place for ballast folded in a marina . They will only be used if a large storm is approaching the marina . 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Three shall be the number 0 Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 Nice boats @Paul Koch. Are any coming to the US shows this Fall? Give us the who, what, when, and where. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 18 Author Share Posted May 18 14 hours ago, Three shall be the number said: Nice boats @Paul Koch. Are any coming to the US shows this Fall? Give us the who, what, when, and where. We are trying very hard to get Rapido 40 hull number 3 to Bob Gleason for the Annapolis Boat Show . This will probably come down to whether the freight rates have returned to some semblance of normality by the time it comes to ship . Freight prices are insane at the moment . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 277 Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 Insane enough to shift production to the market? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Koch 296 Posted May 19 Author Share Posted May 19 On 5/18/2021 at 9:53 AM, boardhead said: Insane enough to shift production to the market? No ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MultiThom 202 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 On 5/15/2021 at 7:46 AM, mundt said: A trimaran should never need water ballast, that would be in direct opposition to its reason for existence, no? Back a while (before F22 was a concept), Ian Farrier said he was looking into water ballast for the windward ama for additional righting moment. Don't think he ever actually built anything to use it, he just said he was looking at the idea. Considering how some of newer monohull designs have foils to achieve this sort of thing it isn't so outre a concept. But like those monohulls, I wouldn't want to depend on some mechanical contrivance to keep me upright, i'm conservative, I am. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gspot 238 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 20 minutes ago, MultiThom said: Back a while (before F22 was a concept), Ian Farrier said he was looking into water ballast for the windward ama for additional righting moment. Don't think he ever actually built anything to use it, he just said he was looking at the idea. Considering how some of newer monohull designs have foils to achieve this sort of thing it isn't so outre a concept. But like those monohulls, I wouldn't want to depend on some mechanical contrivance to keep me upright, i'm conservative, I am. I believe Ian's F-85SR plans contain provision for water ballast, and at least one boat has it roughed in, but I don't know if any boats are actually using it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hannibalhouse 31 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 On 5/17/2021 at 9:33 PM, Paul Koch said: We are trying very hard to get Rapido 40 hull number 3 to Bob Gleason for the Annapolis Boat Show . This will probably come down to whether the freight rates have returned to some semblance of normality by the time it comes to ship . Freight prices are insane at the moment . Could you tell us in U.S. DOLLARS what insane freight would be at the moment and what it would be in “normal” times? Asking for a friend. ’ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Three shall be the number 0 Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 On 5/17/2021 at 9:33 PM, Paul Koch said: We are trying very hard to get Rapido 40 hull number 3 to Bob Gleason for the Annapolis Boat Show . This will probably come down to whether the freight rates have returned to some semblance of normality by the time it comes to ship . Freight prices are insane at the moment . Thank you. Hope to catch you up there or in FL if the boat is also doing those shows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dex Sawash 627 Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 2 hours ago, hannibalhouse said: Could you tell us in U.S. DOLLARS what insane freight would be at the moment and what it would be in “normal” times? Asking for a friend. ’ Just read an article, container rates are up 3-400% over 12 months. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 93 Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 11 hours ago, MultiThom said: Back a while (before F22 was a concept), Ian Farrier said he was looking into water ballast for the windward ama for additional righting moment. Don't think he ever actually built anything to use it, he just said he was looking at the idea. Considering how some of newer monohull designs have foils to achieve this sort of thing it isn't so outre a concept. But like those monohulls, I wouldn't want to depend on some mechanical contrivance to keep me upright, i'm conservative, I am. Dont think C-foils and water-ballast is based on the same things; to have additional c-foils is very expensive and will make some new forces on the construction. Water ballast can be made rather easy and cheap and be used for stability just lying on the water -as the Rapido - or when lightship shorthanded. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gspot 238 Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 On 5/17/2021 at 6:33 PM, Paul Koch said: We are trying very hard to get Rapido 40 hull number 3 to Bob Gleason for the Annapolis Boat Show . This will probably come down to whether the freight rates have returned to some semblance of normality by the time it comes to ship . Freight prices are insane at the moment . Paul, did you know the SA community offers a full suite of shakedown and delivery services, which may be provided pro bono in certain qualifying cases of significant public interest? We are fully behind you in this time of hardship! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D Wayne G 158 Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 18 hours ago, gspot said: I believe Ian's F-85SR plans contain provision for water ballast, and at least one boat has it roughed in, but I don't know if any boats are actually using it. My F85SR Mail Order Bride is equipped with a water ballast tank but I have never used it. It is in the aft end of the main hull and is intended for heavy downwind work only. The heavily modified F31 Cheekee Monkee also had an aft water ballast tank. They used it often. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airwick 235 Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 A lot of the big tris (Ultimes, at least before full foiling) used water ballast but also only in the aft section of the mainhull for downwind work rather than for extra RM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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