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Rapido Trimarans - 2 x New Folding Models Coming !


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Hi Paul,

I just noticed that there is no weight related information in the new specifications for the Rapido 50: https://rapidotrimarans.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/RT50_GeneralSpecifications-30-March-2021-1.pdf  or here on the web site: https://rapidotrimarans.com/rapido-50

However.... I recall seeing weights at some point before? maybe I'm wrong about this but it seems rather a basic part of any yachts specifications pages.

What are the dry/lightship weight, Maximum  safe rated displacement  and an estimated sail-away weight on the boat?

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Honestly I don't know why I bother even responding on here sometimes . Yes I started this thread because I thought some people  might be interested in our approach to build relatively light weight hig

Yes the 50 is sailing and from the report I had from one of the design team who was there it is a stiff solid platform that sails very well . Sorry but have only received very few long distance photos

Really this is all being blown out of all proportion here ,  I have a friendly healthy relationship with the owner and yes there are always some issues on a brand new design  that need addressing

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31 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Yes... But those are the 'old' specifications. I am wondering why  the displacement numbers are  missing from the most recent specifications from March of this year and if the displacement numbers might be different now that a boat has been completed?

Paul, what's up here?

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Hey @2flit, well spotted! That is rather odd. As I said, I am still hoping to view the boat soon, so I will ask what weight values they actually have, assuming they know. I think I remember from that guy who manages the boat, that they will be weighing the boat properly anyway. This is part of an overall and independent survey they will be carrying out apparently. Makes you wonder why all that is being done. Usually not a good sign.

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It's not unusual for production boats to come in at 20-25% higher than the design weight. 

Sometimes it's the builder's fault and sometimes it isn't.

For example people like fair boats, and I'm not sure the designer always correctly estimates the amount of fairing compound required to make a nice-looking boat, which can be significant.  

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38 minutes ago, gspot said:

It's not unusual for production boats to come in at 20-25% higher than the design weight. 

Sometimes it's the builder's fault and sometimes it isn't.

For example people like fair boats, and I'm not sure the designer always correctly estimates the amount of fairing compound required to make a nice-looking boat, which can be significant.  

Whoa... 25% overweight on a trimaran that folks are talking about the possible use of  lifting foils? Really?

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Just imagine if aeroplanes came out at "20 - 25% above design weight" - they MIGHT fly but forget about payload!

Then there's the "fairing compound for a nice finish" - so that equates to better than a ton and a half on the 50? Really!

Given the design pedigree on these Rapido's it might be nice for M&M to chip in with a word and help Paul out if there is a big discrepancy - anyway IS there?

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7 hours ago, gspot said:

It's not unusual for production boats to come in at 20-25% higher than the design weight. 

Sometimes it's the builder's fault and sometimes it isn't.

For example people like fair boats, and I'm not sure the designer always correctly estimates the amount of fairing compound required to make a nice-looking boat, which can be significant.  

gspot, looking at the photos in this thread that Paul Koch has posted from time to time, there is no fairing compound of any volume to be seen, if any. However, on a monohull, an overshoot of say 20-25% would be dissapointing, but not killing. On a trimaran like the Rapido 50, which is marketed as "fast, light and strong" an overshoot of 20-25% would be a total joke, as it is all about weight and consequently payload. Listen to the video´s of Paul Koch and all his weight talk. Weight, or the lack of it, is the reason people buy these sailing machines. I would imagine if you go to court over the before mentioned overshoot in weight of a monohull, a judge will probably laugh at you. With a boat like the Rapido 50, which claims to be the fastest, lightest, etc, there the legal perspective changes completely as with a boat like that, weight is the key feature of the boat. Same as large freight ships, where even a 1% diversion of weight and or speed, is a reason for a buyer to cancel a contract. Just think of the cost, if a ship is 1% slower and the extra fuel if 1% heavier. We are talking millions of dollars over the life span of a ship (I know a little about all this, as my brother is a nautical lawyer, often dealing with such cases).

I have emailed the boat´s manager to ask about the weights.

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One of the few trustworthy sources for realistic displacement figures is the OMR Rating System (all tanks empty and boat in racing trim):

 Romanza - Rapido 60 - D Love / J Knowles - 10,087 kg

 Rapido  - Rapido 60 - Richard Eyre - 9,934 kg

After the folding system of the Rapido 50 adds extra weight my guess would be a measured 'OMR weight' of around 7,500 kg.

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6 hours ago, Pantouf said:

gspot, looking at the photos in this thread that Paul Koch has posted from time to time, there is no fairing compound of any volume to be seen, if any. However, on a monohull, an overshoot of say 20-25% would be dissapointing, but not killing. On a trimaran like the Rapido 50, which is marketed as "fast, light and strong" an overshoot of 20-25% would be a total joke, as it is all about weight and consequently payload. Listen to the video´s of Paul Koch and all his weight talk. Weight, or the lack of it, is the reason people buy these sailing machines. I would imagine if you go to court over the before mentioned overshoot in weight of a monohull, a judge will probably laugh at you. With a boat like the Rapido 50, which claims to be the fastest, lightest, etc, there the legal perspective changes completely as with a boat like that, weight is the key feature of the boat. Same as large freight ships, where even a 1% diversion of weight and or speed, is a reason for a buyer to cancel a contract. Just think of the cost, if a ship is 1% slower and the extra fuel if 1% heavier. We are talking millions of dollars over the life span of a ship (I know a little about all this, as my brother is a nautical lawyer, often dealing with such cases).

I have emailed the boat´s manager to ask about the weights.

I was making a statement about production boats in general and am still hoping the Rapidos will be different. 

Pretty much every multihull is marketed as "fast, light, and strong" including the Hansteiger X1 whose marketing material says "The sailboat version can reach speeds of 20 knots" which IMHO is total BS and only ever going to happen on the back of a freighter. I'm not comparing the Rapido to the Hansteiger except in that pretty much all marketing material needs to be taken with a grain of salt. 

That said, I've also seen custom race-oriented boats come in substantially overweight, which have still gone on to do well, but left me wondering how the design weight and build weight could have wound up being so different. For example, the Antrim 40 design brief on the designer's website says 4,620 lbs, but the original owner said it actually weighs about 6,500 lbs, and it's certainly not full of overweight cruising equipment. 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the Rapidos are indeed overweight and the team is backpedaling on the posted numbers, but they will still be fast and cool boats!

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2 hours ago, Mordoc said:

One of the few trustworthy sources for realistic displacement figures is the OMR Rating System (all tanks empty and boat in racing trim):

 

 Romanza - Rapido 60 - D Love / J Knowles - 10,087 kg

 Rapido  - Rapido 60 - Richard Eyre - 9,934 kg

After the folding system of the Rapido 50 adds extra weight my guess would be a measured 'OMR weight' of around 7,500 kg.

I have been looking at catamarans for a while, before I got interested in trimarans. But the basics are the same for all multihulls. What I was lead to believe from various naval architects and multihull builders, is that Light Displacement is: the boat, with mast, boom, rigging and a main and a jib and an engine. Tanks filled to 10% with fluids, standard spec, so 1 service battery, 1 engine battery, basic navigation equipment (depth sounder, log and compass), nav lights and interior lights and a water system and cooker. It has to be a sailable and usable boat in it´s most basic form. That gives you the LD, thus your total payload based on the max displacement. For multihulls a vital number, well at least for cruising yachts. I would imagine for pure racing yachts, your OMR Rating is more to the point.

But, correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

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I think there are many ways a production can end up overweight, fairing being one of them, sloppy tabbing jobs, large amounts of adhesive to fill gaps in bulkheads etc...
That said I'd be surprised if this was the case with the Rapido as it looks like pretty high tech construction methods so shouldn't be anywhere to hide any significant amount of adhesive.

I think the main risk with infusion is gaps in the core (like the "sliced up foam", whatever it's called) especially in compound curve areas, etc...

I wouldn't question M&M competence but there is room of discrepancy if the builder doesn't end up using the process and assembly method used when weights are estimated. That said the boat seems to float well above where the bottom paint ends so that's a good sign that it's not grossly overweight (unless they found out before launch and moved the bottom paint up ;))

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8 hours ago, hannibalhouse said:

To all of the lousy posters who have run down Rapido/Koch/Triac/M&M for no actual reason:

what is wrong with you?

Agreed. There are a bunch of absolute shitcunts in this thread.

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jmurp and hannibalhouse: I am not sure what your commercial interests are in Rapido/Triac, hell, maybe you even work for them, but tone your language a little bit please. Unless you are Rapido owners or shareholders in Triac. Then we understand.

 

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11 hours ago, hannibalhouse said:

To all of the lousy posters who have run down Rapido/Koch/Triac/M&M for no actual reason:

what is wrong with you?

This particular forum just has a culture where its kinda cool (or at least totally acceptable) to be a total jerk.  Its a shame because otherwise its maybe the best forum on the topic.  Hopefully PK and co realized what a swamp they were stepping into when they started this thread, which is very interesting.  Except for the A$$holery.  I don't think this thread has been particularly targeted.  They most all end up this way.

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4 hours ago, Pantouf said:

jmurp and hannibalhouse: I am not sure what your commercial interests are in Rapido/Triac, hell, maybe you even work for them, but tone your language a little bit please. Unless you are Rapido owners or shareholders in Triac. Then we understand.

 

Pot meet kettle.  Dude, put the axe away.  Its obvious and it boring.

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13 hours ago, hannibalhouse said:

To all of the lousy posters who have run down Rapido/Koch/Triac/M&M for no actual reason:

what is wrong with you?

Well, I'm happy to be one of the folks who have run down Rapido/Kock/Triac/ for ACTUAL reasons.  So, Nothing wrong with me.  

In case you haven't paid attention, Triac built SeaRails (Irens design) with HOLES in the daggerboard trunk.  Wouldn't buy another boat made by Triac.  Don't care who is the designer.  

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5 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

Well, I'm happy to be one of the folks who have run down Rapido/Kock/Triac/ for ACTUAL reasons.  So, Nothing wrong with me.  

In case you haven't paid attention, Triac built SeaRails (Irens design) with HOLES in the daggerboard trunk.  Wouldn't buy another boat made by Triac.  Don't care who is the designer.  

But they offered to fix your boat and you refused.  From what I remember the consensus was that PK handled the situation well.

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1 minute ago, eastern motors said:

But they offered to fix your boat and you refused.  From what I remember the consensus was that PK handled the situation well.

Not from my end...installing a bilge pump tomorrow after three years of trying to get this piece of crap fixed because it is simply impossible to fix without destroying the boat or rebuilding it...simply because PK and his company was too stupid to supervise untrained workers.  I say again, I would not buy anything from triac.  

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12 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

Not from my end...installing a bilge pump tomorrow after three years of trying to get this piece of crap fixed because it is simply impossible to fix without destroying the boat or rebuilding it...simply because PK and his company was too stupid to supervise untrained workers.  I say again, I would not buy anything from triac.  

Here's the response from two pages ago.

On 10/21/2020 at 1:25 AM, Paul Koch said:

I dont know how anyone can judge anything from the picture quality of that video .It is a very confined part of the boat but obviously there is a leak in the daggerboard case and yes it should not happen . This boat was built during a period when I was off work for months having a heart operation ( not an excuse but we are all human )  and we only built fiberglass parts for Searail and they did the assembly of the boat in the US . They should have tested it better before delivery to Thom . . We were an outsourced subcontractor for these boats.

Triac used Searails  tooling , their design and their methods to put them together . Needless to say this design and tooling and method to put it together was suboptimal and nothing like how we prefer to build boats but we built it to the specs we were given , Searails owner was in the factory teaching the workers how to build the boats so maybe he should also bear some of the responsibility for the outcome .

Ok so someone did not do a perfect job on a super low budget boat . We took responsibility and one of our managers tried to get Thom to get quotes for the repair but he decided that we were all pricks and to quote him   " 

"Seriously, I don't need or want your assistance...instead I will be happy to tell anyone who asks what "quality" your production process represents. 

 James (both of you), this means I won't be driving the boat to Vacaville for an estimate.  I'd rather live with a leak than deal with these assholes. " 

Bottom line is , we tried to fix the issue but were told that in no uncertain terms that our assistance was not required !

Yes Thom maybe had a reason to be unhappy that his Searail 19 was not perfect in every aspect but if you knew the price we were expected to build them for  you would understand our reluctance to build any more of them. He has not helped himself with his attitude with his dealings with Triac's managers .

If he would like to resolve his leak problem I suggest that he contacts Triac's general manager who he has the email for and arrange to get a quote as requested  for the repair and we can all move on

.

 

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12 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Here's the response from two pages ago.

 

SO, how does that fix the hole in my boat?  Don't care about excuses, don't care about offers to pay for fixing it-don't need their dirty money, have plenty of my own earned cleanly.  Fact remains, some things cannot be fixed AFTER something is built incorrectly.  I know this since I took it to a repair guy who spent 2 months trying to seal the daggerboard trunk...he (a local pro) was unable to fix it.  There is no remedy.  So I tell anyone and everyone who wants to buy something from Triac, don't do it.  I haven't seen ANY remorse for creating a crap product; but even remorse wouldn't fix the hole in my boat that was put there because Triac and PK did not supervise untrained workers who had production deadlines.  And no, I do not blame SeaRail simply because he misplaced his trust in an untrustworthy organization who apparently are more interested in $$ than quality.  SO, I say again, I would never buy anything from Triac. 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Pot meet kettle.  Dude, put the axe away.  Its obvious and it boring.

Wess, you are right, but at least I don´t use obscene language. This was my point.

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5 hours ago, Pantouf said:

Wess, you are right, but at least I don´t use obscene language. This was my point.

@jmurph lists location as Australia where shitcunt is perfectly acceptable language, similar to shitfuckery. Mate's a cunt , cunt's a mate down here.

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1 hour ago, ALL@SEA said:

@jmurph lists location as Australia where shitcunt is perfectly acceptable language, similar to shitfuckery. Mate's a cunt , cunt's a mate down here.

Damn right. You sound like a good c*nt. :)

15 hours ago, Pantouf said:

jmurp and hannibalhouse: I am not sure what your commercial interests are in Rapido/Triac, hell, maybe you even work for them, but tone your language a little bit please. Unless you are Rapido owners or shareholders in Triac. Then we understand.

 

Fcuk off. I'm just someone that's really stoked to see wicked boats like these being built.

10 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Not from my end...installing a bilge pump tomorrow after three years of trying to get this piece of crap fixed because it is simply impossible to fix without destroying the boat or rebuilding it...simply because PK and his company was too stupid to supervise untrained workers.  I say again, I would not buy anything from triac.  

I've read your story and I think you have a fair argument against triac. However, it really doesn't need to get brought up in this thread yet again. Can we just not go there again please? It's not the place.

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So - two years later, as we continue to suffer covid 19 and all the political bs woven in and around it, Paul's answer to my March 19 2019 post is well still in the ball park.

The 50 is of little interest to me, too big, too many $'s and nightmare ownership logistics - it's the 40 along with the new Dragonfly that I want news on.

How soon? - "shortly after mid 2020" - OK 2 years not 1!

How much? - "$450,000 - $600,000 with too much stuff" - is that still good?

How heavy? - "Early weight estimate 3,700 kg" (8,140 pounds) - how is that looking.

COS I WANNA GO RACE ONE!!!!

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Honestly I don't know why I bother even responding on here sometimes . Yes I started this thread because I thought some people  might be interested in our approach to build relatively light weight high tech , well engineered cruising Trimarans that actually have some space in them .

We are not perfect , our designers are not perfect , our customers are all great people who put their faith in us to build them a great boat which I think we do and most of our customers end up as advocates and friends . Yes we do make mistakes but at the end of the day we try to fix them at our expense . This is why I will probably never get rich building boats , but I have no trouble sleeping at night .

In this day and age , everyone wants a fridge , batteries , stuff , stoves , ovens , washing machines , generators , air con , more stuff , toys etc and a nice looking interior .

So it is difficult to second guess what the actually sailing weight of a boat will be when all said and done . Designers make optimistic weight estimates , we try to believe them but then we have to build boats to their detailed construction drawings and to CE standards or other rules . We build our boats out of mostly carbon fibre which is resin infused in the hulls and decks , many components like chain plate bulkheads , rudders , daggerboards, dagger and rudder cases , bowsprits , pulpits seats beams , masts , booms , etc are all prepreg epoxy cured in a autoclave . Furniture is all foam cored panel , cant build them lighter , so I don't know how we can make lighter cruising boats .

Yes the Rapido 50 is heavier than the designers told us it would be , the mistake we made was publishing their overly optimistic weight estimates before we built the first boat . At the end of the day we are still way lighter than an other cruising 50 footer out there and I guarantee the 50 will sail the socks off any other competitors the same size . Engineering of everything has been rechecked for the heavier sailing weight and all is good .

So before you experts flame away , go put your money and expertise where your mouth is an come up with some better boats , we welcome the competition and welcome your attempt at raising the level of performance cruising multihulls . It's not so hard to build the near perfect one off boat , try assembling a team of 100 plus people and produce boats in volume , it's a piece of cake eh !

If you really are interested in a Rapido , feel free to contact me directly and I will be very happy to answer your questions personally .

Sorry the above was written on a Saturday night during a covid lockdown after a couple of glasses of red wine so apologies if I have offended any of you possums !

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Paul Koch said:

Honestly I don't know why I bother even responding on here sometimes . Yes I started this thread because I thought some people  might be interested in our approach to build relatively light weight high tech , well engineered cruising Trimarans that actually have some space in them .

We are not perfect , our designers are not perfect , our customers are all great people who put their faith in us to build them a great boat which I think we do and most of our customers end up as advocates and friends . Yes we do make mistakes but at the end of the day we try to fix them at our expense . This is why I will probably never get rich building boats , but I have no trouble sleeping at night .

In this day and age , everyone wants a fridge , batteries , stuff , stoves , ovens , washing machines , generators , air con , more stuff , toys etc and a nice looking interior .

So it is difficult to second guess what the actually sailing weight of a boat will be when all said and done . Designers make optimistic weight estimates , we try to believe them but then we have to build boats to their detailed construction drawings and to CE standards or other rules . We build our boats out of mostly carbon fibre which is resin infused in the hulls and decks , many components like chain plate bulkheads , rudders , daggerboards, dagger and rudder cases , bowsprits , pulpits seats beams , masts , booms , etc are all prepreg epoxy cured in a autoclave . Furniture is all foam cored panel , cant build them lighter , so I don't know how we can make lighter cruising boats .

Yes the Rapido 50 is heavier than the designers told us it would be , the mistake we made was publishing their overly optimistic weight estimates before we built the first boat . At the end of the day we are still way lighter than an other cruising 50 footer out there and I guarantee the 50 will sail the socks off any other competitors the same size . Engineering of everything has been rechecked for the heavier sailing weight and all is good .

So before you experts flame away , go put your money and expertise where your mouth is an come up with some better boats , we welcome the competition and welcome your attempt at raising the level of performance cruising multihulls . It's not so hard to build the near perfect one off boat , try assembling a team of 100 plus people and produce boats in volume , it's a piece of cake eh !

If you really are interested in a Rapido , feel free to contact me directly and I will be very happy to answer your questions personally .

Sorry the above was written on a Saturday night during a covid lockdown after a couple of glasses of red wine so apologies if I have offended any of you possums !

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right there with you.  And think its a great boat you are building.  Can't wait to see the 40. 

Ignore the noise.   Keep up the good work.

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3 minutes ago, Paul Koch said:

Sorry the above was written on a Saturday night during a covid lockdown after a couple of glasses of red wine so apologies if I have offended any of you possums !

Obscenity level a bit below community standard

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20 minutes ago, boardhead said:

So - two years later, as we continue to suffer covid 19 and all the political bs woven in and around it, Paul's answer to my March 19 2019 post is well still in the ball park.

The 50 is of little interest to me, too big, too many $'s and nightmare ownership logistics - it's the 40 along with the new Dragonfly that I want news on.

How soon? - "shortly after mid 2020" - OK 2 years not 1!

How much? - "$450,000 - $600,000 with too much stuff" - is that still good?

How heavy? - "Early weight estimate 3,700 kg" (8,140 pounds) - how is that looking.

COS I WANNA GO RACE ONE!!!!

Price is still in the ball park , designers have upped the weight estimate , the 40 is looking fantastic and we are going to extremes to keep the weight down , first one should be sailing within 2 months , 3 rd boat started , 8 sold so someone likes it , heaps more guys sitting on the fence waiting to see it

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29 minutes ago, boardhead said:

So - two years later, as we continue to suffer covid 19 and all the political bs woven in and around it, Paul's answer to my March 19 2019 post is well still in the ball park.

The 50 is of little interest to me, too big, too many $'s and nightmare ownership logistics - it's the 40 along with the new Dragonfly that I want news on.

How soon? - "shortly after mid 2020" - OK 2 years not 1!

How much? - "$450,000 - $600,000 with too much stuff" - is that still good?

How heavy? - "Early weight estimate 3,700 kg" (8,140 pounds) - how is that looking.

COS I WANNA GO RACE ONE!!!!

Don't you need to sell something first?  How many multis you gonna own at one time LOL?!?

4 minutes ago, Paul Koch said:

Price is still in the ball park , designers have upped the weight estimate , the 40 is looking fantastic and we are going to extremes to keep the weight down , first one should be sailing within 2 months , 3 rd boat started , 8 sold so someone likes it , heaps more guys sitting on the fence waiting to see it

Can't wait to see it!

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Like your response and understand the frustration, Paul - the couple glasses of red wine are doing the trick - keep it up!

As you know I built and designed a sailors 40’ Offshore  tri and am well aware of the extremely small/non existent market that type of craft commands, both new and used. I also well recall taking Chris White for a short but spirited delivery trip down Buzzards Bay and his comment at the end that “it would be irresponsible to sell such a craft to the public”  He also voiced his frustration at filling his more performance designs with customer dictated irrelevant crap. Subsequently he designed the Explorer 44 for a sensible owner - probably the quickest White of all - I know my input helped there.

 

Wess -  Don’t need to own it to race it, I want to race against it!

Competition in 1992 - Northern Rainbow, Greenwich Propane, Biscuits Cantreau, Toshiba, Blazin, Quicksilver, etc,etc.

Today - NADA! 

The sport needs new blood and energy not more bullshit.

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1 hour ago, Paul Koch said:

Honestly I don't know why I bother even responding on here sometimes . Yes I started this thread because I thought some people  might be interested in our approach to build relatively light weight high tech , well engineered cruising Trimarans that actually have some space in them .

We are not perfect , our designers are not perfect , our customers are all great people who put their faith in us to build them a great boat which I think we do and most of our customers end up as advocates and friends . Yes we do make mistakes but at the end of the day we try to fix them at our expense . This is why I will probably never get rich building boats , but I have no trouble sleeping at night .

In this day and age , everyone wants a fridge , batteries , stuff , stoves , ovens , washing machines , generators , air con , more stuff , toys etc and a nice looking interior .

So it is difficult to second guess what the actually sailing weight of a boat will be when all said and done . Designers make optimistic weight estimates , we try to believe them but then we have to build boats to their detailed construction drawings and to CE standards or other rules . We build our boats out of mostly carbon fibre which is resin infused in the hulls and decks , many components like chain plate bulkheads , rudders , daggerboards, dagger and rudder cases , bowsprits , pulpits seats beams , masts , booms , etc are all prepreg epoxy cured in a autoclave . Furniture is all foam cored panel , cant build them lighter , so I don't know how we can make lighter cruising boats .

Yes the Rapido 50 is heavier than the designers told us it would be , the mistake we made was publishing their overly optimistic weight estimates before we built the first boat . At the end of the day we are still way lighter than an other cruising 50 footer out there and I guarantee the 50 will sail the socks off any other competitors the same size . Engineering of everything has been rechecked for the heavier sailing weight and all is good .

So before you experts flame away , go put your money and expertise where your mouth is an come up with some better boats , we welcome the competition and welcome your attempt at raising the level of performance cruising multihulls . It's not so hard to build the near perfect one off boat , try assembling a team of 100 plus people and produce boats in volume , it's a piece of cake eh !

If you really are interested in a Rapido , feel free to contact me directly and I will be very happy to answer your questions personally .

Sorry the above was written on a Saturday night during a covid lockdown after a couple of glasses of red wine so apologies if I have offended any of you possums !

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the update. Really appreciate your engagement in this thread Paul!

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18 hours ago, jmurph said:

Agreed. There are a bunch of absolute shitcunts in this thread.

Commiserations for your miserable utilization of a beautiful language. 

Shit and cunt both work fine stand alone - together - nonsense.

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4 hours ago, boardhead said:

Like your response and understand the frustration, Paul - the couple glasses of red wine are doing the trick - keep it up!

As you know I built and designed a sailors 40’ Offshore  tri and am well aware of the extremely small/non existent market that type of craft commands, both new and used. I also well recall taking Chris White for a short but spirited delivery trip down Buzzards Bay and his comment at the end that “it would be irresponsible to sell such a craft to the public”  He also voiced his frustration at filling his more performance designs with customer dictated irrelevant crap. Subsequently he designed the Explorer 44 for a sensible owner - probably the quickest White of all - I know my input helped there.

 

Wess -  Don’t need to own it to race it, I want to race against it!

Competition in 1992 - Northern Rainbow, Greenwich Propane, Biscuits Cantreau, Toshiba, Blazin, Quicksilver, etc,etc.

Today - NADA! 

The sport needs new blood and energy not more bullshit.

I really don’t see multihull racing coming back like that. It used to be that they were the baddest boats around and the average Joe could build or acquire one (by average Joe I mean somebody like yourself... you didn’t have to be a multi millionaire). Now the average multi is way down the spectrum from being the baddest thing out there. For the baddest multi you need millions and foils and rock star crews and average multis are a dime a dozen relatively speaking. So what is the appeal to race? If I want great racing I am getting out my Laser.  Not my F27 or C36 or Rapido. That is for fast cruising. 

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On 5/27/2021 at 7:43 PM, 2flit said:

Hi Paul,

I just noticed that there is no weight related information in the new specifications for the Rapido 50: https://rapidotrimarans.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/RT50_GeneralSpecifications-30-March-2021-1.pdf  or here on the web site: https://rapidotrimarans.com/rapido-50

However.... I recall seeing weights at some point before? maybe I'm wrong about this but it seems rather a basic part of any yachts specifications pages.

What are the dry/lightship weight, Maximum  safe rated displacement  and an estimated sail-away weight on the boat?

So we have the following response from Paul... "Yes the Rapido 50 is heavier than the designers told us it would be....."  In my view... not a shocking revelation, I think we would all expect this from a production boat built at a factory that specializes in all sorts of different fiberglass construction methods. If they got even 'close' to the MM design numbers I would be somewhat surprised. But I am very curious what the real world weight actually turned out to be.

Sounds like there is at least a known Light-Ship displacement number for the Rapido 50 or possibly a number of actual inches that she floated below her design waterline without her spars aboard...???

The design weights are still conspicuously missing from the current Rapido-50 specifications.

 

RE: Rapido-40; Also - as a matter of comparison - our year 2001 40 foot Farrier trimaran has detailed logs of every hour spent building and the payments made to the builder (not a "owner-built" boat) as well as receipts for all the materials and outside labor. This stack of documents is about 12 inches tall. I spent several days collating all of it on an Excel spreadsheet.  The cost to build converted to year 2021 USD is $655,347.00

And while it is total hearsay - and I should probably not say - the rumored cost from second hand sources has the newly built Granger 42 at a competitive racing trim sailaway  cost 4X the cost of our 40 footer

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And I know Greg had been open about how over weight his Farrier is. You been to the scales with yours?

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

I really don’t see multihull racing coming back like that. It used to be that they were the baddest boats around and the average Joe could build or acquire one (by average Joe I mean somebody like yourself... you didn’t have to be a multi millionaire). Now the average multi is way down the spectrum from being the baddest thing out there. For the baddest multi you need millions and foils and rock star crews and average multis are a dime a dozen relatively speaking. So what is the appeal to race? If I want great racing I am getting out my Laser.  Not my F27 or C36 or Rapido. That is for fast cruising. 

I never considered needing or owning a "baddest" boat and "average Joes"  never built or owned a boat like mine or any of the fleet I mentioned from circa 1992.

Give me a choice between being one of the crew flying across flat water in Hamilton harbor or the Haurakai gulf or driving my boat offshore in breeze - my spot on the foiler stays vacant.

I hope the Rapido 40 is more than fast cruising and F27's and 36's are not comparable - did you ever even get close to averaging 10 knots around a windward-leeward course?

So I am hoping some young blood steps up for a stripped out Rapido and re-ignites a flame that is as exciting today as it ever was and is attainable.

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We have absolutely no accurate weight on our trimaran. We have hauled four times on travel lifts, once on a trailer, and once on a Sea-Lift. The Travel lifts that have hauled us have either had no  working strain Gauge (Tahiti and San Diego travel-lifts and the two trailer hauls) or are such huge lifts designed for 100 ton+  boats that the gauge reports hardly tip the scale. We wait for the next time that we can put the boat on our own trailer at home and drive her onto a truck scale to get a weight. I am sure that the boat is heavier than Ian suggested it should, but we added over 3,598 pounds of cruising gear and supplies that we have weighted as we added them.  We still have turned in an over 300 mile day this month and she is capable of just barely exceeding 20 knots (not surfing) even in her presently highly loaded condition.

The only Farrier plans built boat (that I am aware of) that came out lighter than Ian's estimate range in an F9a called RedShift. While it's possible, it seems exceedingly rare.

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2flit - my friend Jim,s 40' Hughes tri part built by Lombardi and owner finished cost over $700,000 and weighed in at 9,700 pounds, empty, without the rig, at launch. She floated 8" below the design waterline and has less than stellar performance. Beautiful cruising boat for two she is all he wanted. The designers numbers were way off.

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19 minutes ago, boardhead said:

I never considered needing or owning a "baddest" boat and "average Joes"  never built or owned a boat like mine or any of the fleet I mentioned from circa 1992.

Give me a choice between being one of the crew flying across flat water in Hamilton harbor or the Haurakai gulf or driving my boat offshore in breeze - my spot on the foiler stays vacant.

I hope the Rapido 40 is more than fast cruising and F27's and 36's are not comparable - did you ever even get close to averaging 10 knots around a windward-leeward course?

So I am hoping some young blood steps up for a stripped out Rapido and re-ignites a flame that is as exciting today as it ever was and is attainable.

Yea sure we have done and likely even bettered 10 knots average around a WW/LW course in the F27.  Never raced the C36 and don't want to so can't comment there.  But I think we are maybe talking past each other.  I like racing.  Enjoy the learning that comes with it as well as the tactics aspect.  But honestly, I think multihull racing sucks.  Its not OD, the rating systems are terrible, and there is little to no boat on boat interactions.  I love and own multihulls obviously but for racing the Laser or OD monohulls are much much more fun.  Guessing I am not the only one that feels this way as I don't see many folks racing multis and as you note, you don't either.  Hell my friend with the F33 (much better racer than cruiser) races a J70. 

I can not think of a single compelling reason to race my or any other larger multihull.  I sure do love mine for fast comfortable cruising though!

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35 minutes ago, Wess said:

 I like racing.  Enjoy the learning that comes with it as well as the tactics aspect.  But honestly, I think multihull racing sucks.  Its not OD, the rating systems are terrible, and there is little to no boat on boat interactions.  I love and own multihulls obviously but for racing the Laser or OD monohulls are much much more fun. 

This...

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8 hours ago, boardhead said:

Like your response and understand the frustration, Paul - the couple glasses of red wine are doing the trick - keep it up!

As you know I built and designed a sailors 40’ Offshore  tri and am well aware of the extremely small/non existent market that type of craft commands, both new and used. I also well recall taking Chris White for a short but spirited delivery trip down Buzzards Bay and his comment at the end that “it would be irresponsible to sell such a craft to the public”  He also voiced his frustration at filling his more performance designs with customer dictated irrelevant crap. Subsequently he designed the Explorer 44 for a sensible owner - probably the quickest White of all - I know my input helped there.

 

Wess -  Don’t need to own it to race it, I want to race against it!

Competition in 1992 - Northern Rainbow, Greenwich Propane, Biscuits Cantreau, Toshiba, Blazin, Quicksilver, etc,etc.

Today - NADA! 

The sport needs new blood and energy not more bullshit.

Chris W’s comments reveal the truth about performance/production multihulls. Light enough to perform = light enough for generic owners to seriously mess up(side down). Build big enough to be hi perf with all the amenities is also possible—but then it will be too big for an owner couple….

having had 2 multi’s built by a conciencious builder, trying to stay in business, I am acutely aware of the constant push/pull of knowing where/when to push for ‘warrantee’ work vs potentially pushing for a solution that would be unsustainable fora viable business. There simply isnt enough margin to have a Detroit Auto Co type warrantee. 
 

it takes flexible and understanding buyers as well as builder integrity to buy what is essentially a custom boat despite it javing a few, or few dozen sisterships.

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So in all my years competing in NEMA, a very popular venue for F boats with some top notch sailors, I never saw an F27 get close to that 10 knot w/l average (not a reacherama) I guess you would have cleaned up!

Anyway, here on the Rapido chat that would be the expectation for a bare bones version - we are talking around 13 up and 18 down, sustained, at decent angles.

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3 hours ago, boardhead said:

So in all my years competing in NEMA, a very popular venue for F boats with some top notch sailors, I never saw an F27 get close to that 10 knot w/l average (not a reacherama) I guess you would have cleaned up!

Anyway, here on the Rapido chat that would be the expectation for a bare bones version - we are talking around 13 up and 18 down, sustained, at decent angles.

Here is the latest polar data I have for the Rapido 40 . doesn't look too bad in theory !

Polar data, R40, 1 Apr 21.jpg

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Thank you Paul. All the snickering and innuendo about actual vs design displacement is a sideshow. I’m dealing with a tri that came 57% above design. It’s what it is, and the interesting question is what the actual tri can do.

In your VPP is it possible to stress test the displacement and make charts of speed on the y-axis vs assumed displacement on the x-axis, for say 14 TWS and 45, 90, and 135 TWA?

It would be useful not just for evaluating production execution, but also the effects of loading the boat.

 

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2 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Thank you Paul. All the snickering and innuendo about actual vs design displacement is a sideshow. I’m dealing with a tri that came 57% above design. It’s what it is, and the interesting question is what the actual tri can do.

In your VPP is it possible to stress test the displacement and make charts of speed on the y-axis vs assumed displacement on the x-axis, for say 14 TWS and 45, 90, and 135 TWA?
 

 

What Trimaran design do you have?

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23 minutes ago, Paul Koch said:

Here is the latest polar data I have for the Rapido 40 . doesn't look too bad in theory !

Polar data, R40, 1 Apr 21.jpg

Very Impressive for a 'cruising' trimaran in the 40 foot range, and one where you have spoken about the ability to carry allot of the stuff (junk) that we cruisers seem to want to haul around. Even as Theoretical numbers, they appear very encouraging. Our 40 foot Farrier does not even come close.

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That's the spirit Paul, the numbers look OK.

See if you can wind up an owner from your build/order list to go find out what a light, powerful, strong and non crap filled trimaran can do.

Better yet - ship it to Bob and let him have at it - the man makes a raft go fast!

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2 minutes ago, boardhead said:

That's the spirit Paul, the numbers look OK.

See if you can wind up an owner from your build/order list to go find out what a light, powerful, strong and non crap filled trimaran can do.

Better yet - ship it to Bob and let him have at it - the man makes a raft go fast!

Bob is getting number 3 and yes he has bought a fairly bare bones boat !

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5 hours ago, Veeger said:

Chris W’s comments reveal the truth about performance/production multihulls. Light enough to perform = light enough for generic owners to seriously mess up(side down). 

I don't agree here. Well designed fast offshore trimarans incorporating all we have learned are actually very safe and forgiving - hence their success in short handed racing.

What type of multihulls did you have built?

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Board - Veeg has all the credibility you have and then some.

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Board and Veeg both are right :rolleyes:

Light performance Catamaran = easy to seriously mess up (e.g. in a squall)

Trimaran (today all of them are performance oriented) = very safe in (almost) all conditions

 

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6 hours ago, Mordoc said:

Board and Veeg both are right :rolleyes:

Light performance Catamaran = easy to seriously mess up (e.g. in a squall)

Trimaran (today all of them are performance oriented) = very safe in (almost) all conditions

 

Been a whole lot of Farriers and Corsairs that have gone over.

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

Been a whole lot of Farriers and Corsairs that have gone over.

Wess.... We are talking about 40, 50, and 60 foot long boats here, ?

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Here's a chart of model boatspeed penalty for displacement coming heavier than designed. For being 25% overweight (say from 8t to 10t) the penalty is 0.7kt. There are so many other things going right for these boats that it seems less important than, say, how much shade there is in the cockpit.

image.png.a5ce0d6b4d94a88f0de633d60069620b.png

 

Unrelated and FWIW, design displacement of the much admired here Bañuls 53 Finn is 7.5t. I was told by someone with first hand knowledge and no pecuniary interest that measured weight was 11.2t. That's 49% over. Still a very cool boat.

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2 minutes ago, 2flit said:

Wess.... We are talking about 40, 50, and 60 foot long boats here, ?

To pitchpole, the boat's KE has to be sufficient to hoist the CM vertical (or half the boat length).  In flat water, a 50 footer can go 24 kts and be safe.  Of course in 8 meter waves, it is much less than that at 14 kts.

In contrast, a Farrier 8.2 can only safely speed at 17 kts in flat water but won't be safe in waves of 4.1 meters if he goes more than 10 kts.  Which could explain a lot of pitchpole events for Farriers/Corsairs.  

These are Swags based on how a pole vaulter works and doesn't account for the elastic collision of the bow with the water and assumes all KE goes to height. Wave shape makes a difference so I also guessed that 35% of the height was already used going down the wave face so you are already closer to pitchpole.  Boat designers don't seem to design a safe operating envelope so I decided to swag my own. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

To pitchpole, the boat's KE has to be sufficient to hoist the CM vertical (or half the boat length).  In flat water, a 50 footer can go 24 kts and be safe.  Of course in 8 meter waves, it is much less than that at 14 kts.

In contrast, a Farrier 8.2 can only safely speed at 17 kts in flat water but won't be safe in waves of 4.1 meters if he goes more than 10 kts.  Which could explain a lot of pitchpole events for Farriers/Corsairs.  

These are Swags based on how a pole vaulter works and doesn't account for the elastic collision of the bow with the water and assumes all KE goes to height. Wave shape makes a difference so I also guessed that 35% of the height was already used going down the wave face so you are already closer to pitchpole.  Boat designers don't seem to design a safe operating envelope so I decided to swag my own. 

 

 

This is pretty neat, can you share the formulas?

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11 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

This is pretty neat, can you share the formulas?

After some algebraic manipulation it boils down to boat length in meters times gravity (9.8 m/secsq) and take sq root of the result.  Change m/s to kts.  Mass divided out so it is weight independent (which surprised me when I did it).  

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Per the post mentioning Chris White.  Loosely, I referenced the inverted possibility, but that’s not really my primary point. His point, which I agree with wholeheartedly, (as I understand it) is not that a high performance multihull can’t be built.  But once you go into production, you are no longer designing and building for highly experienced owners, rather you are building to a necessarily less experienced enthusiast as well as folks who are spending good money and used to mass production (by definition, NOT a boat these days) warrantees.  You must overbuild, have the goodies and maintain an adequate profit margin to both stand good for problems after the sale and still make a profit in the end.  All these additional considerations war against Boardhead’ s high performance desires.  Mostly, it can’t be done, although Paul is going to give it a good go.  Seriously hoping he succeeds. Note, however, it takes constant attention to all the details by a dedicated individual(s) like owner’s of small boat building companies and even not so small ones....

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2 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Here's a chart of model boatspeed penalty for displacement coming heavier than designed. For being 25% overweight (say from 8t to 10t) the penalty is 0.7kt. There are so many other things going right for these boats that it seems less important than, say, how much shade there is in the cockpit.

image.png.a5ce0d6b4d94a88f0de633d60069620b.png

The calcs came from this website:

http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=34
 

now that I stare at them, just from the gut feeling the impact of displacement on speed seems understated. 
 

Would be good to check against a proper VPP.

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9 hours ago, Veeger said:

Per the post mentioning Chris White.  Loosely, I referenced the inverted possibility, but that’s not really my primary point. His point, which I agree with wholeheartedly, (as I understand it) is not that a high performance multihull can’t be built.  But once you go into production, you are no longer designing and building for highly experienced owners, rather you are building to a necessarily less experienced enthusiast as well as folks who are spending good money and used to mass production (by definition, NOT a boat these days) warrantees.  You must overbuild, have the goodies and maintain an adequate profit margin to both stand good for problems after the sale and still make a profit in the end.  All these additional considerations war against Boardhead’ s high performance desires.  Mostly, it can’t be done, although Paul is going to give it a good go.  Seriously hoping he succeeds. Note, however, it takes constant attention to all the details by a dedicated individual(s) like owner’s of small boat building companies and even not so small ones....

Chris White is a pretty insightful dude. Been lucky to have the chance to sail some serious sea miles on boats of his design.

But equally I am very much looking forward to seeing the Rapido 40. 

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10 hours ago, Veeger said:

Per the post mentioning Chris White.  Loosely, I referenced the inverted possibility, but that’s not really my primary point. His point, which I agree with wholeheartedly, (as I understand it) is not that a high performance multihull can’t be built.  But once you go into production, you are no longer designing and building for highly experienced owners, rather you are building to a necessarily less experienced enthusiast - - -

Well put and that is exactly the point. If you really want to cruise fast there is so much to learn - which is what makes this exploit so interesting and exciting.

Chris designed, built, cruised and to a lesser degree even raced very diverse multihulls and those experiences equipped him with vast experience - a small sample of which is related in his publications.

The recently quoted VPP’s and stability formula are really only ball park guides which attempt to accurately quantify those virtues and are no more but, again, that’s what makes Paul and M&M’s efforts here so challenging.

Used to be that when you bought a Viper (car) the deal came with track instruction so the new owner was less likely to end up killing himself. The same goes for casting off a novice in a performance boat - of any kind. Just as surely as the designer/builder/seller can excite the prospective owner on the capabilities of the craft it is also necessary to, at the very least, explain the shortcomings.

The trimaran form does offer a more forgiving stability curve than that of a catamaran - generally. For owners who wish to enjoy a higher performance level, particularly offshore, they can be amazing - but “you can’t have your cake and eat it” - there is a price and balancing that price versus the benefits is personal.

For those that do not wish to savor the thrills the risks may seem unacceptable - so be it. 

I learned from remarkable people, some of whom died pushing the envelope but that’s how the data base is built. 

Read Rob James, Mike McMullen and Cathy Hawkins books if you are considering a fast, offshore trimaran.

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On 5/29/2021 at 10:10 PM, 2flit said:

So we have the following response from Paul... "Yes the Rapido 50 is heavier than the designers told us it would be....."  In my view... not a shocking revelation, I think we would all expect this from a production boat built at a factory that specializes in all sorts of different fiberglass construction methods. If they got even 'close' to the MM design numbers I would be somewhat surprised. But I am very curious what the real world weight actually turned out to be.

Sounds like there is at least a known Light-Ship displacement number for the Rapido 50 or possibly a number of actual inches that she floated below her design waterline without her spars aboard...???

The design weights are still conspicuously missing from the current Rapido-50 specifications.

 

RE: Rapido-40; Also - as a matter of comparison - our year 2001 40 foot Farrier trimaran has detailed logs of every hour spent building and the payments made to the builder (not a "owner-built" boat) as well as receipts for all the materials and outside labor. This stack of documents is about 12 inches tall. I spent several days collating all of it on an Excel spreadsheet.  The cost to build converted to year 2021 USD is $655,347.00

And while it is total hearsay - and I should probably not say - the rumored cost from second hand sources has the newly built Granger 42 at a competitive racing trim sailaway  cost 4X the cost of our 40 footer

I emailed the guy who looks after this Rapido 50 and who has been involved in the building process since day 1.

He wrote: the weight of the boat, as it arrived in Europe and taking off the weight of cradles, wrapping, temporary mast, diesel and water content was 9,6 tonnes. This does include all the sails, the running rigging, a Takacat dinghy and a carbon gangway, but does not include the mast, boom or standing rigging. By the time this boat goes sailing in still a very basic configuration, it will be 10,5 tonnes. The new max displacement is now 11.930kgs. He said, it is unfortunate and of course disappointing, but it is what it is. He also says it is evident Rapido/Triac have done their utmost to build the boat as light as possible. It is a lean boat nevertheless, which no doubt will still be fast.

I will ask him if he is happy if I could share his whole email to me, to be posted on this forum, as it is very informative and more importantly, first-hand information without any commercial interest.

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On 5/29/2021 at 10:03 AM, boardhead said:

 I also well recall taking Chris White for a short but spirited delivery trip down Buzzards Bay and his comment at the end that “it would be irresponsible to sell such a craft to the public”  He also voiced his frustration at filling his more performance designs with customer dictated irrelevant crap. Subsequently he designed the Explorer 44 for a sensible owner - probably the quickest White of all - I know my input helped there.

Thank you for that, as we love the boat!

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5 hours ago, boardhead said:

Read Rob James, Mike McMullen and Cathy Hawkins books if you are considering a fast, offshore trimaran.

This Rob James?

Ocean Sailing - Robert James [1980, PDF]

What are the titles of McMullen and Hawkins books?

 

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Rob James - Multihulls Offshore. 1983, published by Dodd, Mead & Co, NY.

Cathy Hawkins - In the Wake - if I recall correctly, I have a copy somewhere, will dig it out and let you know 

Mike McMullen would have been around 1976 as he was lost on Three Cheers in the OSTAR. 

All gems !

20210531_133000.jpg

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On 5/30/2021 at 2:25 PM, Paul Koch said:

Here is the latest polar data I have for the Rapido 40 . doesn't look too bad in theory !

Polar data, R40, 1 Apr 21.jpg

Not sure about those polars, if true the 40 would be one of the fastest multihulls on the water under 70'. The missus might get a little grumpy as you cruise upwind at 17kn.

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Do you people still watch black and white TV too? These are books from just after when Jezus was nailed to the cross.

Do you truly believe that people with the knowledge of 1976 or so, actually had any true understanding of multihulls? My god, how sad is this.

But, I am sure you will tell me now that these were the heroes of multihull-ism. Thank god things moved on and in that respect Heil Paul Koch.

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Yeah, these are books written by people who ventured outside the bay, were instrumental in confirming and dismissing designers contemporary theory and had af fire in their bellies for adventure..

I suggested these books as a source of inspiration and explanation of some of the basics of sound offshore multihull design and seamanship.

Do you have personal experience of affordable offshore multihulls or can you suggest some relevant - more contemporary if you like - reading to help people understand what works and does not.

I reckon that, performance wise, the Rapido 40 would be a huge success if it can deliver the numbers Cathy Hawkins enjoyed on her "black and white TV era" Crowther 40.

Go read the books before you judge.

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33 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Do you have personal experience of affordable offshore multihulls or can you suggest some relevant - more contemporary if you like - reading to help people understand what works and does not.

 

You might check out 

Multihull Seamanship: An A-Z of skills for catamarans & trimarans / cruising & racing (Skipper's Library) Paperback – April 20, 2018

by Gavin Le Sueur (Author), Nigel Allison (Illustrator)

More in the Flat Screen Tv Age.

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33 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

You might check out 

Multihull Seamanship: An A-Z of skills for catamarans & trimarans / cruising & racing (Skipper's Library) Paperback – April 20, 2018

by Gavin Le Sueur (Author), Nigel Allison (Illustrator)

More in the Flat Screen Tv Age.

LCD Seamanship, I like it!... That one has been "in print" for a bit over 20 years.... I wonder how substantive the 2018 update was, please describe the update if you happen to know if this was geared to the present Catamaran market...  we see so few trimarans out there in the last four years it's about 200 to 1 in favor of the Cat. Most of them have been Grainger Trimarans in the far-off regions.

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51 minutes ago, 2flit said:

LCD Seamanship, I like it!... That one has been "in print" for a bit over 20 years.... I wonder how substantive the 2018 update was, please describe the update if you happen to know if this was geared to the present Catamaran market...  we see so few trimarans out there in the last four years it's about 200 to 1 in favor of the Cat. Most of them have been Grainger Trimarans in the far-off regions.

Really don't know.  Bought it for the anchoring chapter.

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3 hours ago, Pantouf said:

Do you people still watch black and white TV too? These are books from just after when Jezus was nailed to the cross.

Do you truly believe that people with the knowledge of 1976 or so, actually had any true understanding of multihulls? My god, how sad is this.

But, I am sure you will tell me now that these were the heroes of multihull-ism. Thank god things moved on and in that respect Heil Paul Koch.

You're suggesting that Dick Newick and Lock Crowther didn't have a "true understanding" of multihulls?

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No @jdazey, I am not saying that. I fully agree with you in fact, they are benchmark people in their days and have done a lot for the upcoming of multihulls. But, outdated on many points too. I even have that book on the shelve, somewhere. What I am saying is, things have moved on a bit and this is where I have to give Paul Koch credit (with M&M) that they brought things to new levels. The engineering that has gone into the Rapido 50 (which I know a bit more about by now) is pretty awesome. That side of things, no one can deny.

PS. I am still laughing about "cuntfuckery" and all that! I did not realise it is generally used as Aussie slang. I have caught myself using it a lot recently. Brilliant!

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