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Rapido Trimarans - 2 x New Folding Models Coming !


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5 hours ago, Pantouf said:

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Do you have a picture (closer up) that shows where the bow of the float touches the water (the ama 'bow waterline'),  Thanks!

 

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Honestly I don't know why I bother even responding on here sometimes . Yes I started this thread because I thought some people  might be interested in our approach to build relatively light weight hig

Yes the 50 is sailing and from the report I had from one of the design team who was there it is a stiff solid platform that sails very well . Sorry but have only received very few long distance photos

Really this is all being blown out of all proportion here ,  I have a friendly healthy relationship with the owner and yes there are always some issues on a brand new design  that need addressing

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31 minutes ago, 2flit said:

Do you have a picture (closer up) that shows where the bow of the float touches the water (the ama 'bow waterline'), 

The folded ama bows are well above the waterline.

rapido_folded_cropped.thumb.jpg.2e822124b3a0fcd9001c22aae4aaf966.jpg

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31 minutes ago, 2flit said:

Do you have a picture (closer up) that shows where the bow of the float touches the water (the ama 'bow waterline'),  Thanks!

 

I don´t, but can probably make one soon. But, don´t forget the mast, rigging, halyards and sails are not on yet. That is like 700-750kgs alone. Then all the gear, beer and people need to go on.  As the boat manager described, by the time the boat is sail ready it will be 10+ tonnes. That will for sure affect the waterline again. You can see the antifouling of the floats is too low. There is a green slime line on the waterline, above the antifouling. That will only get worse.

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2 hours ago, Pantouf said:

I don´t, but can probably make one soon. But, don´t forget the mast, rigging, halyards and sails are not on yet. That is like 700-750kgs alone. Then all the gear, beer and people need to go on.  As the boat manager described, by the time the boat is sail ready it will be 10+ tonnes. That will for sure affect the waterline again. You can see the antifouling of the floats is too low. There is a green slime line on the waterline, above the antifouling. That will only get worse.

You’ve developed a weird infatuation with this boat. 

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2 hours ago, Pantouf said:

I don´t, but can probably make one soon. But, don´t forget the mast, rigging, halyards and sails are not on yet. That is like 700-750kgs alone. Then all the gear, beer and people need to go on.  As the boat manager described, by the time the boat is sail ready it will be 10+ tonnes. That will for sure affect the waterline again. You can see the antifouling of the floats is too low. There is a green slime line on the waterline, above the antifouling. That will only get worse.

I’m pretty sure that Paul mentioned in an earlier post that when the mast is stepped and tensioned that the amas will rise quite a bit in relation to the main hull, you should be commenting on the main hulls waterline as the amas waterline is irrevelent.

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51 minutes ago, he b gb said:

I’m pretty sure that Paul mentioned in an earlier post that when the mast is stepped and tensioned that the amas will rise quite a bit in relation to the main hull, you should be commenting on the main hulls waterline as the amas waterline is irrevelent.

Should not be a lot of pre-bend - beams are carbon-right - 'course the main hull sinks as the amas are sucked up.

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1 hour ago, hannibalhouse said:

To all who have a horse in this race, remember these lyrics https://www.metrolyrics.com/thats-life-lyrics-frank-sinatra.html.  I wish the best for you.

He is just another angry person with an axe to grind.  Put him on ignore (he is one of three for me).  He already outed and burned the idiot owner's rep.  Doh!  As with anything, do your own homework.  This place can be insightful or comical depending on the day!

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6 hours ago, he b gb said:

I’m pretty sure that Paul mentioned in an earlier post that when the mast is stepped and tensioned that the amas will rise quite a bit in relation to the main hull, you should be commenting on the main hulls waterline as the amas waterline is irrevelent.

I think you do not understand this boat. I have seen one side unfold only yesterday, so have seen its mechanics. There is not going to rise anything here. the beams are held down by substantial struts, fixed to the middle of the beams. And I mean substantial. There are huge, connected to both sides of the beam. It forms a totally rigid connection between amas and mainhull, give or take a few mm. 

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And to all the Wess´s, Hanniballs and Monkeys here: you have no idea what you are talking about, but seem to have some weird love affair with your guru Paul Koch. Anything he says must be true. Well, good luck with that. 

I at least have seen this boat for real, have had the grand tour yesterday, had dinner with the owner and the manager of the boat and will go back in one hour again to continue looking at the boat. You losers, just sit behind a PC and know shit. You just assume. Wess even questioned if the email from the boat manager was real. Wait till I start posting photos of what I have encountered so far. But, you will probably think is all photo shopped and fake. Tossers.

Laser Class.......hahaahhahahahahaa, says it all really.

 

 

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On 5/28/2021 at 7:56 PM, MultiThom said:

Fact remains, some things cannot be fixed AFTER something is built incorrectly. 

Excess weight being another thing (besides inaccessible holes in daggerboard trunks)  that cannot be fixed after the build.  Granted, no one will buy a half million dollar boat whose finish is horrible, but a ton of gelcoat perhaps is not the answer.

 

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The ama hatches are not really needed when in a slip, parked for the next sailing adventure.

Pantouf and capt Marco, and the owner appear to be engaged in some scheme aiming to get some money off Paul on the first R50 sale. If this reduces Paul’s ability to produce more Rapidos it’s a loss for everyone here. 

All Paul needs to do is make Rapido 40 faster and cheaper than Dragonfly 40. Then punters can pick a faster 40’ tri that can actually work for most people in the world with limited docking space. It should be pretty doable. 

All the theatrics about someone being wronged about abstract theoretical numbers are just sad. Deal with reality and move on. 

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Really this is all being blown out of all proportion here , 

I have a friendly healthy relationship with the owner and yes there are always some issues on a brand new design  that need addressing and we will fix them . The owners rep also has his opinions about aspects of the finish which he is also entitled to ,we are far better at doing  the structural aspects of a boat very well than having a glitzy interior for instance .

Bottom line is we stand behind our products and we will make good with the owner and at the end of the day hopefully everyone will appreciate what a fantastic boat the Rapido 50 is as a design that does what it is meant to , cruise fast in relative comfort .

I can now also see why most boat builders never engage with this forum , a lot to lose and all you get is a bunch of ill-informed advice from a lot of armchair experts .

 

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Some of the posts on this thread are a disgrace. I have no dog in this fight whatsoever but for some guy who “had dinner” with the owner to come on here and hang crap on the boat?  Give me a break. I’m sure if the new owner has any issues he will promptly get in contact with the builders and won’t need some legend hanging shit on his new boat just to prove what a hero he is.

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Seriously Pantouf, who has a grand tour of  a boat, hangs shit on it then has dinner before going to look over it again? What the grand tour wasn’t grand enough? You sound like a grand tosser with an obvious axe to grind. Looks like a nice boat but you must think otherwise. Are you really going to store shit in a 50’ boat that takes 2hrs to retrieve when you need it? I’m not being a keyboard expert here just commenting on how ridiculous you sound.

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Chards, cyberbully much?  You say you don't have a dog in this fight, but yet feel free to criticize the only person posting who has actually seen the boat irl besides the manufacturer who wanted free advertising but got more than he wanted in free criticism.  Of course you can be a bully safely in an on line forum titled anarchy. 

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No bullying from me multi, I just wonder why a random is posting all the negativity but the guy who bought it isn’t. I actually couldn’t care less about the boat

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On 6/5/2021 at 4:25 AM, Paul Koch said:

I can now also see why most boat builders never engage with this forum , a lot to lose and all you get is a bunch of ill-informed advice from a lot of armchair experts.

Not at all limited to THIS forum, THIS website, or THIS electronic form of media.

Perceived anonymity leads to explosive growth of opinions...

Many folks appreciate the honest, open sharing from a boat builder. I certainly do... even as I know I would not, if I was sitting at your desk. Thanks for having a thick skin!

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23 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Chards, cyberbully much?  You say you don't have a dog in this fight, but yet feel free to criticize the only person posting who has actually seen the boat irl besides the manufacturer who wanted free advertising but got more than he wanted in free criticism.  Of course you can be a bully safely in an on line forum titled anarchy. 

Dude, his post was perfectly civil and even in the realm of cyber bullying. He was just asking the same thing I was. Pantouf is the one who got his panties all twisted up and started attacking anyone who dared question his weird quest. 
 

I have no doubt that the boat has some issues. Pretty much every hull 1 of a production boat has. They usually get worked out. You’d have to be utterly oblivious to spend that kind of money and not know this. 

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On 6/4/2021 at 8:06 AM, ProaSailor said:

The folded ama bows are well above the waterline.

rapido_folded_cropped.thumb.jpg.2e822124b3a0fcd9001c22aae4aaf966.jpg

I should have asked Pantouf for the picture "when the floats are extended" and before the mast goes up. I think this one is in the folded position? In any case ... I am very curious to capture the float position extended before the rig tensions everything up, the amas lift due to rig tension and the beams flexing upward, the main hull sinks further, and the boat is fully deployed with it's mast on.  Just curious about this. 

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On 6/4/2021 at 12:26 AM, Pantouf said:

And to all the Wess´s, Hanniballs and Monkeys here: you have no idea what you are talking about, but seem to have some weird love affair with your guru Paul Koch. Anything he says must be true. Well, good luck with that. 

I at least have seen this boat for real, have had the grand tour yesterday, had dinner with the owner and the manager of the boat and will go back in one hour again to continue looking at the boat. You losers, just sit behind a PC and know shit. You just assume. Wess even questioned if the email from the boat manager was real. Wait till I start posting photos of what I have encountered so far. But, you will probably think is all photo shopped and fake. Tossers.

Laser Class.......hahaahhahahahahaa, says it all really.

 

 

Sorry it took so long to get back to you princess. I was busy sailing all weekend. I hope your marina stalking is going well. 

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2 hours ago, 2flit said:

In any case ... I am very curious to capture the float position extended before the rig tensions everything up

Couple pages back... 

Also some shots here (links from the page before in this thread...):

 

And I also remembered this was specifically discussed: 

 

Not sure I believe 6" though, that seems like a lot and would bring the amas completely clear of water, which wouldn't be a good features on a cruiser as far as comfort at anchor goes...

 

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1 hour ago, Airwick said:

Not sure I believe 6" though, that seems like a lot and would bring the amas completely clear of water, which wouldn't be a good features on a cruiser as far as comfort at anchor goes...

Thanks, I should have looked first!

Rapido50 Ama WL.png

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3 hours ago, Airwick said:

Not sure I believe 6" though, that seems like a lot and would bring the amas completely clear of water, which wouldn't be a good features on a cruiser as far as comfort at anchor goes...

 

You can just pile stuff on one side.

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On 6/5/2021 at 4:25 AM, Paul Koch said:

Really this is all being blown out of all proportion here , 

I have a friendly healthy relationship with the owner and yes there are always some issues on a brand new design  that need addressing and we will fix them . The owners rep also has his opinions about aspects of the finish which he is also entitled to ,we are far better at doing  the structural aspects of a boat very well than having a glitzy interior for instance .

Bottom line is we stand behind our products and we will make good with the owner and at the end of the day hopefully everyone will appreciate what a fantastic boat the Rapido 50 is as a design that does what it is meant to , cruise fast in relative comfort .

I can now also see why most boat builders never engage with this forum , a lot to lose and all you get is a bunch of ill-informed advice from a lot of armchair experts .

 

Paul, 

These threads always get a small number of people with an axe to grind, but there are many of us out here just drooling over the boats. I really appreciate the incite into the design and build process. Most of all I cant wait to see some reports of the boats being used.

My point is that this thread still has positive marketing value despite all the negative comments. 

Ben Carver

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Yes, Ben, there are many of us drooling over these Rapidos. Some of us are actually considering spending upwards of $750,000 for one. The comments about them, positive and negative, help with due diligence and are welcome. The comments attacking other posters not so much.

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I have enjoyed watching the Rapido's get built and may eventually (someday, I hope) be in the market for one.  I would not have known about them and not been as interested without this thread.  So the effort is not totally in vain.

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Sailing La Vagabonde (on youtube) have announced they will be getting either a folding 50ft or a 60 ft rapido. That's some big publicity, hope that allows you to grow and keep pumping out awesome designs for when I get to a boat-buying age.
Agree with the above, thanks for posting Paul.
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59 minutes ago, jasper7427 said:

Sailing La Vagabonde (on youtube) have announced they will be getting either a folding 50ft or a 60 ft rapido. That's some big publicity

They are moving to Vietnam to supervise construction of the new boat?

 

rapido_trimaran_darling.thumb.jpg.ea1112b82f4c7dc06720feda5a1c27c1.jpg

rapido_trimaran_2.thumb.jpg.63b2bb16e673a3c6cda8568671c97333.jpg

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Why wouldn't they get the first R60 Ineffable? 

I suppose it might be due to their schedule with the new baby and all... needing to be on land.

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Yes that can be interesting to follow -  and will give very much publicity - hopefully good - if everything goes according to plan....

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On 6/5/2021 at 7:25 AM, Paul Koch said:

Really this is all being blown out of all proportion here , 

I have a friendly healthy relationship with the owner and yes there are always some issues on a brand new design  that need addressing and we will fix them . The owners rep also has his opinions about aspects of the finish which he is also entitled to ,we are far better at doing  the structural aspects of a boat very well than having a glitzy interior for instance .

Bottom line is we stand behind our products and we will make good with the owner and at the end of the day hopefully everyone will appreciate what a fantastic boat the Rapido 50 is as a design that does what it is meant to , cruise fast in relative comfort .

I can now also see why most boat builders never engage with this forum , a lot to lose and all you get is a bunch of ill-informed advice from a lot of armchair experts .

 

Amen Paul.  That is why we so admired Ian for his tireless engagement here.  Thank you for the thousand plus boats you built there -wish you could get rights to f22 and crank them out too!

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9 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Paul, 

These threads always get a small number of people with an axe to grind, but there are many of us out here just drooling over the boats. I really appreciate the incite into the design and build process. Most of all I cant wait to see some reports of the boats being used.

My point is that this thread still has positive marketing value despite all the negative comments. 

Ben Carver

Nice post, but seems ironic that you said "incite" instead of "insight".

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59 minutes ago, Loose Cannon said:

Amen Paul.  That is why we so admired Ian for his tireless engagement here.  Thank you for the thousand plus boats you built there -wish you could get rights to f22 and crank them out too!

Plus one to that.  Was so sad to see the Farrier legacy go down the tubes with the ex GB XXXXX he sold to. Jesus; what was he thinking.  Would love to see Paul or the Corsair folks have rights and thus keep it alive.  So sad to see Farrier end that way.  His followers deserved better.

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The Vagabunders are sorely misinformed if they think the Rapids is the "first really good cruising trimaran out there". Boats have evolved, but people have been cruising in "good" trimarans longer than they have been alive.

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3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

The Vagabunders are sorely misinformed if they think the Rapids is the "first really good cruising trimaran out there". Boats have evolved, but people have been cruising in "good" trimarans longer than they have been alive.

It think he meant "production trimarans like 50 60 ft" ....

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11 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

The Vagabunders are sorely misinformed if they think the Rapids is the "first really good cruising trimaran out there". Boats have evolved, but people have been cruising in "good" trimarans longer than they have been alive.

Whatever they have to say to get more of these things built so I can buy a used one in 10-15 years...

1,6 million subscribers is insane.

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15 hours ago, nroose said:

Nice post, but seems ironic that you said "incite" instead of "insight".

lol that must  have been Freudian slip 

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14 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

The Vagabunders are sorely misinformed if they think the Rapids is the "first really good cruising trimaran out there". Boats have evolved, but people have been cruising in "good" trimarans longer than they have been alive.

Also I think he really meant "good for them" given the amount of time they have spent around marinas I'm sure they have seen some "good cruising trimarans."  

If they go for a 50 I would think that would be considerably less interior space than the Outremer 45. Its impressive that a growing full time liveaboard family would be looking to minimize their space. 

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13 hours ago, SeaGul said:

It think he meant "production trimarans like 50 60 ft" ....

Define "production". 

Before the charter market gassed up the industry and filled the world with motor/sailing catamarans there were plenty of smaller "production" facilities. How many Piver trimarans did Cox Marine launch back in the sixties (like Russell said YEARS before Vagabunders were born) 

Crowther Buccaneers,  Kelsall K39's, Shuttleworth's, Cross 46, Dragonfly 40 etc, all professionally built plus a sizeable fleet of professional or better quality amateur built blue water cruising trimarans.

Anyway THANKS Rapido for the energy being stirred up here. It's a tragedy that so many years after we discovered how amazing these boats are that they are being "rediscovered".

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The reason trimarans are "redicovered" is that some as Vagabonds want more speed and better sailing - the X5  GB and similar  are fast boats but I think they can be scary to push hard. If you really want to sail the ocean and fast theres no better answer than a big trimaran. 

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I see the topic of movement at anchor has come up; that is sure a problem on some tris inkl. mine;  small chop from the side from passing boats will make it move so much it can be unpleasant. Living onboard that can be a big thing that needs to be considered. Waterballast fir the 50 was mentioned to keep it stable while foldes - same system can maybe be used to let the boat sit properly in the water - used in both hull - or in one to make it a "catamaran" - then it would heel slightly. Cruising trimarans sit with all 3 hulls in the water - if it sits deep enough it is maybe not a problem? 

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Photos of the 60s show them sitting with both amas just touching the water, so movement shouldn't be a problem.

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On 5/30/2021 at 9:06 AM, Mordoc said:

Board and Veeg both are right :rolleyes:

Light performance Catamaran = easy to seriously mess up (e.g. in a squall)

Trimaran (today all of them are performance oriented) = very safe in (almost) all conditions

 

I'm a broken record on this, but what I want is innovation that brings down cost and weight on rolling boom furlers. Being easily able to tune a high-performance main for wind conditions and my mood is basically the first component of my dream boat. I've seen a southern spars custom mast and boom furling solution on a swan 50 that was just beautiful. 

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On 6/5/2021 at 4:25 AM, Paul Koch said:

I can now also see why most boat builders never engage with this forum , a lot to lose and all you get is a bunch of ill-informed advice from a lot of armchair experts .

Please don't jump to conclusions or lose faith. I have found your openness, and straightforward posts invaluable. If I had the money I would buy a boat from you in a heartbeat. I think you get way more positive PR than negative in these discussions. Learning more about the differences between the 40 and the 50 will be my chief boat obsession in the coming years. And if I can scrape the money together, my number one purchase. I also think there is a little too much discussion about cruising. These boats would be my dream daysailers / weekend trip boats.

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On 6/7/2021 at 11:00 PM, Russell Brown said:

The Vagabunders are sorely misinformed...

The first 5 words covered it

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On 6/7/2021 at 8:00 PM, Russell Brown said:

The Vagabunders are sorely misinformed if they think the Rapids is the "first really good cruising trimaran out there". Boats have evolved, but people have been cruising in "good" trimarans longer than they have been alive.

I don't think you watched the video. They didn't say it, he didn't say it - she did, and he immediately recoiled with humor at the potential backlash. It was funny... (And I don't disagree with her. Multihulls weren't anywhere close to as good as they are now before carbon fiber.)

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On 6/5/2021 at 7:25 AM, Paul Koch said:

 

I can now also see why most boat builders never engage with this forum , a lot to lose and all you get is a bunch of ill-informed advice from a lot of armchair experts .

 

Believe it or not, there are some informed keyboard warriors on here and they can disseminate through the bs. Discussing boats is fantastic if it's done with decorum and truthfulness. If you all did not think that was valid you would not have engaged the vagabond crew. Not throwing shade, but Riley has one funky haircut!!!

I think that today's multihulls are getting better and better. 

What is the pounds per inch immersion on the rapido 60? The videos of her hauling the mail are seriously impressive. 

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10 hours ago, estarzinger said:

What is the ballpark delivery date for a new 60 ordered today?

Depends on Youtube views and how long they can stretch out "construction supervision" / get tired of Vietnam.

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On 5/27/2021 at 3:57 PM, gspot said:

For example people like fair boats, and I'm not sure the designer always correctly estimates the amount of fairing compound required to make a nice-looking boat, which can be significant.

Maybe for a one off - but a boat built in molds doesn't have any significant amount of post demoulding fairing.

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On 5/28/2021 at 7:31 AM, Pantouf said:

What I was lead to believe from various naval architects and multihull builders, is that Light Displacement is: the boat, with mast, boom, rigging and a main and a jib and an engine. Tanks filled to 10% with fluids, standard spec, so 1 service battery, 1 engine battery, basic navigation equipment (depth sounder, log and compass), nav lights and interior lights and a water system and cooker. I

Correct except Light Ship is usually with tanks empty.

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8 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Depends on Youtube views and how long they can stretch out "construction supervision" / get tired of Vietnam.

i was actually not asking with respect to the la Vag one, which I presume is a special 'at cost while we have factory capacity' deal - but rather for a 'real' order.  I presume there is a better answer than 'how long is a piece of string', or perhaps not.

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39 minutes ago, mpenman said:

Not throwing shade, but Riley has one funky haircut!!!

They both do for that matter!

Trying to live up to their brand I guess?

But isn't it always the case that what's cool for the younger generation seems a bit odd for us older folks?

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On 6/2/2021 at 8:13 AM, Pantouf said:

If we want to do say a week or 10 day trip with 4 people, we are getting close the all new max displacement of 11,9 tonnes (which is on the CE document I have attached). I think crossing an ocean is out of the question just from a weight point of view, unless we ask Elon Musk to supply us with space food.

People drastically overestimate the importance of "maximum displacement" or "payload" on multis. It isn't going to break if you add an extra tonne. You can certainly cross an ocean with it. Just make sure your watermaker is in good condition and you have faith in it. We crossed from Mexico to the Marquesas with one water tank full and one 2/3 full. We kept topping them up in a reasonable fashion and always knew if the watermaker died it would be end of daily showers for all.

Tell me what the "maximum displacement" means to you.

From a CE regulatory point of view, you have to put something in your stability calculations so the designer puts in a number that seems reasonable.

From an engineering/NA perspective you put in a number and design your structure around that. If the boat is a tonne heavier than maximum that loads on the rig and beams are a bit higher but with reasonable safety factor nothing is going to fail.

I do think a lot of designers drastically underestimate what the average owner will bring aboard above the light ship weight. 1 T/person seems about right. That's fluffy pillows, too many tools (me), too many shoes (my wife),too many books (my daughter).

Now if you then add play toys like inflatable paddleboards, extra A/C, 2nd fridge, generator that the designer never even considered would be aboard the original design, then yeah it's easy to overdo it.

There are designers and builders who can be very accurate but most of them are not.

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On 6/3/2021 at 10:08 AM, MultiThom said:

While we're speaking of weight...gelcoat weighs a lot.  Aren't there lighter finish systems?  There is a lot of surface area covered in these big boats.  What do America's Cup boats use?

Sure. 2 part polyurethane is heaps lighter. But if you mold a boat gelcoat is the economical way to finish it.

AC boats (last time I was involved we were designing monos so that dates me) had to use 2 part poly and a primer. We asked if we could use vinyl wrap because it is lighter still. They said "only if it comes in a can". We started searching online for really big cans to put our vinyl wrap in....

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Zonker said:

People drastically overestimate the importance of "maximum displacement" or "payload" on multis. It isn't going to break if you add an extra tonne. You can certainly cross an ocean with it. Just make sure your watermaker is in good condition and you have faith in it. We crossed from Mexico to the Marquesas with one water tank full and one 2/3 full. We kept topping them up in a reasonable fashion and always knew if the watermaker died it would be end of daily showers for all.

Tell me what the "maximum displacement" means to you.

From a CE regulatory point of view, you have to put something in your stability calculations so the designer puts in a number that seems reasonable.

From an engineering/NA perspective you put in a number and design your structure around that. If the boat is a tonne heavier than maximum that loads on the rig and beams are a bit higher but with reasonable safety factor nothing is going to fail.

I do think a lot of designers drastically underestimate what the average owner will bring aboard above the light ship weight. 1 T/person seems about right. That's fluffy pillows, too many tools (me), too many shoes (my wife),too many books (my daughter).

Now if you then add play toys like inflatable paddleboards, extra A/C, 2nd fridge, generator that the designer never even considered would be aboard the original design, then yeah it's easy to overdo it.

There are designers and builders who can be very accurate but most of them are not.

You really hit the nail on the head with that post Zonker! When we left on our Pacific cruise we had so much gear, food etc on board that our usual 4” of anti foul totally disappeared. We spent 4 months on Kiritimati Island for cyclone season where decent food and fresh water is virtually unobtainable (except for fish and coconuts) so we had to take heaps along for the ride,( not to mention the 2 foldable bikes and Weber bbq 2 tenders and plenty of other gear that we didn’t use). Anyway, the performance didn’t suffer as much as I thought it would and the boat didn’t fall into pieces! 

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3 minutes ago, he b gb said:

You really hit the nail on the head with that post Zonker! When we left on our Pacific cruise we had so much gear, food etc on board that our usual 4” of anti foul totally disappeared. We spent 4 months on Kiritimati Island for cyclone season where decent food and fresh water is virtually unobtainable (except for fish and coconuts) so we had to take heaps along for the ride,( not to mention the 2 foldable bikes and Weber bbq 2 tenders and plenty of other gear that we didn’t use). Anyway, the performance didn’t suffer as much as I thought it would and the boat didn’t fall into pieces! 

What model boat was this?

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

i was actually not asking with respect to the la Vag one, which I presume is a special 'at cost while we have factory capacity' deal - but rather for a 'real' order.  I presume there is a better answer than 'how long is a piece of string', or perhaps not.

Paul is not hard to find and easy to talk to if you are serious.  Given some of the idiots here I doubt you find him in these parts.  Are you folks still sailing? Thought you swallowed the anchor.

 

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

Paul is not hard to find and easy to talk to if you are serious.  Given some of the idiots here I doubt you find him in these parts.  Are you folks still sailing? Thought you swallowed the anchor.

 

sent you a PM

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38 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

sent you a PM

Cool.  See reply there.  Glad to hear it and good luck.

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10 hours ago, Zonker said:

Tell me what the "maximum displacement" means to you.

Maximum, the limit that you can't or shouldn't exceed. Reason to void warranty.

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7 hours ago, 2flit said:

What model boat was this?

Not a tri but I was just using it as an example of the point Zonker was making in his post. I’m pretty sure you would agree with him also considering your own voyaging in performance multihull.

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40 minutes ago, he b gb said:

Not a tri but I was just using it as an example of the point Zonker was making in his post. I’m pretty sure you would agree with him also considering your own voyaging in performance multihull.

I have come to realize that I am not experienced enough to make general comments, I'm not a naval architect (I assume Zonker is and has far-far more experience).I have only owned two trimarans; one that did up to a 45 day trip and the one I am for the last four year trip. I wanted to know if you were on topic with your own experience and if this was relevant to Trimarans. 

I do know that I am seriously concerned about how much weight we have taken on and work very hard to reduce weight as we move along. I feel that it is a much more serious issue in our present trimaran than it was in my old off-shore monohull (this was an old OSTAR boat).

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5 hours ago, Zonker said:

People drastically overestimate the importance of "maximum displacement" or "payload" on multis. It isn't going to break if you add an extra tonne. You can certainly cross an ocean with it. Just make sure your watermaker is in good condition and you have faith in it. We crossed from Mexico to the Marquesas with one water tank full and one 2/3 full. We kept topping them up in a reasonable fashion and always knew if the watermaker died it would be end of daily showers for all.

Tell me what the "maximum displacement" means to you.

From a CE regulatory point of view, you have to put something in your stability calculations so the designer puts in a number that seems reasonable.

From an engineering/NA perspective you put in a number and design your structure around that. If the boat is a tonne heavier than maximum that loads on the rig and beams are a bit higher but with reasonable safety factor nothing is going to fail.

I do think a lot of designers drastically underestimate what the average owner will bring aboard above the light ship weight. 1 T/person seems about right. That's fluffy pillows, too many tools (me), too many shoes (my wife),too many books (my daughter).

Now if you then add play toys like inflatable paddleboards, extra A/C, 2nd fridge, generator that the designer never even considered would be aboard the original design, then yeah it's easy to overdo it.

There are designers and builders who can be very accurate but most of them are not.

I think we need to recognize there is a difference between catamarans and trimarans in the consequences of overloading.

Most cruising catamarans have sufficient buoyancy in each hull to support the weight of massive overloading so as weight increases so does the righting moment and resistance to capsize but damage from bridgedeck pounding can be a problem, rig overloding and of course those grin generating bursts of speed diminish.

Modern trimarans typically have amas with reserve (greater than 100%) buoyancy sufficient to fly two hulls.

I think it is important to know the total buoyancy and weight of the ama and thus the maximum weight it will support as it is driven below the surface.

The maximum displacement should be a number appropriate to the use of the vessel as in the plimsol line on a commercial vessels.

I would be increasingly cautious in the offshore expectations of a trimaran once the ama buoyancy diminished below 150%.

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So to clarify the preceeding, as a guideline and something to keep the big picture in perspective, would restrict the maximum displacement, for a trimaran, to two thirds the weight that the ama can support.

The distribution of that buoyancy along the length of the ama will also be influenced by the vessels intended use and will be subject to change if the use of C foils is considered.

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17 hours ago, Zonker said:

Now if you then add play toys like inflatable paddleboards, extra A/C, 2nd fridge, generator that the designer never even considered would be aboard the original design, then yeah it's easy to overdo it.

We resemble this; we carry 4 inflatable SUP’s in our float, and one inflated on the net!

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8 hours ago, boardhead said:

So to clarify the preceeding, as a guideline and something to keep the big picture in perspective, would restrict the maximum displacement, for a trimaran, to two thirds the weight that the ama can support.

The distribution of that buoyancy along the length of the ama will also be influenced by the vessels intended use and will be subject to change if the use of C foils is considered.

By that logic, my F-27 is unsafe sitting empty in race form. I would guess most of the Newicks would be as well.  Russ what is the float volume of your F-36?

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11 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Maximum, the limit that you can't or shouldn't exceed. Reason to void warranty.

Find me a warranty where it says that you can't exceed X kgs or your warranty will be voided. As an owner I'd turn to the builder and say "How can I tell". There aren't any draft marks or stability book to interpret draft readings.

I'd say that like Jack Sparrow,"the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules" max displacements for boats are more like guidelines. 

11 hours ago, boardhead said:

Modern trimarans typically have amas with reserve (greater than 100%) buoyancy sufficient to fly two hulls.

Yes, they do. But I think if you are CRUISING a trimaran and you fly the main hull you are on the bad side of the stability curve. Just like if you fly one hull of a cruising catamaran.

Overload the cat and the hulls sink. Faster than a mono of the same length usually though I am not sure for really fat hulls like a Lagoon. Might be similar. Hmmm have to try to find published figures...anyway

Overload a tri and the hulls sink. Probably SLOWER than the cat because you go from amas barely kissing the water to several inches immersed and the waterplane grows very rapidly due to the ama shape.

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3 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

By that logic, my F-27 is unsafe sitting empty in race form. I would guess most of the Newicks would be as well.  Russ what is the float volume of your F-36?

So this topic is about 40' and 50' Rapido's and my interest here focuses more on the 40 which is, or should be,  big enough for a couple with small kids to cruise extensively.

Your F27 - not so much, maybe you could provision at the local BK before you cast off and yes, for the weather you are likely to encounter if you head out a bit, it is unsafe.

Newicks - well Jack Petith did great along with many others, not really F27 comparable.

Of MUCH more interest to me here is how the more "modern" wave piercing, high buoyancy amas, with or without C foils work out on a forty foot tri.

Oh - yes - what is the ama flotation on an F36?

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Regardless of cat or tri (or keelboat or aircraft carrier).  The more displacement (weight) the more water you are shoving out of the way every mile day after day.  Shoving water out of the way takes energy.  The ocean is playing rope a dope with every boat.  

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12 hours ago, 2flit said:

I have come to realize that I am not experienced enough to make general comments, I'm not a naval architect (I assume Zonker is and has far-far more experience).I have only owned two trimarans; one that did up to a 45 day trip and the one I am for the last four year trip. I wanted to know if you were on topic with your own experience and if this was relevant to Trimarans. 

I do know that I am seriously concerned about how much weight we have taken on and work very hard to reduce weight as we move along. I feel that it is a much more serious issue in our present trimaran than it was in my old off-shore monohull (this was an old OSTAR boat).

It actually sounds as though you are quite an experienced trimaran sailor, a 4year cruise on a performance multi hull is impressive in my books and your general comments would be appreciated by many in this thread. It would be interesting to hear what your concerns are (eg. capsize, breaking up etc.). 
        (Just for interest sake, have you been editing your post? Maybe I’m going crazy but it seems different to when I first read it.)

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1 hour ago, he b gb said:

...

It would be interesting to hear what your concerns are (eg. capsize, breaking up etc.). 

I think that would a bit of a thread hijack... But I'll  private message you, I don't think that the general readership would care much, But sounds like a good topic for another thread if you want to start one?
        (Just for interest sake, have you been editing your post? 

Yes, I edited it within the first ten minutes to add the bit about my own personal concern about reducing weight on a tri compared to a monohull  when used on long off-shore passages. I also amplified my comments with regard to my developing  an understanding of how little I actually know.

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You know that Jack Petith was a merchant mariner so I am sure he was very familiar with just how much he could load his NAGA Newick trimaran. I propose and dedicate this interpretation of the Plimsoll mark to Jack and think it would be appropriate applied judicially to multihulls. 

Plimsol-Mark.thumb.jpg.cd7618521d0b02ad3334fff446a1054a.jpgimage.thumb.png.3dcfe52b775928927d0cd49288dfc7e5.png

 

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11 hours ago, Zonker said:

Find me a warranty where it says that you can't exceed X kgs or your warranty will be voided. As an owner I'd turn to the builder and say "How can I tell". There aren't any draft marks or stability book to interpret draft readings.

I'd say that like Jack Sparrow,"the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules" max displacements for boats are more like guidelines.

I've been lurking too much in forums and youtube and had my warranty expectations based on them, mostly American style warranties. Which are seemingly voided by removing sticker or willy nilly, until you sue someone.

I'd prefer better term for guideline than maximum displacement. That sounds too absolute. Maximum recommended displacement sounds more like guideline. Yup. English is not my first language and I have much more German attitude to rules and regulations than people from land of the free and brave.

 

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On 6/9/2021 at 1:38 PM, mpenman said:

Discussing boats is fantastic if it's done with decorum and truthfulness. 

Discussing ANYTHING can be fantastic if done with decorum and truth. Better still if we add humor AND can all add assume good intent.

Forums (not just this one) are often at their worst wit1hout that last bit. I don't imagine anyone in this thread is leaning back, twirling the ends of their mustache, and laughing evilly.

Truth, decorum, humor, and good intent. That's the world I'd like to live in... whether headline news or messing about in boats.

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9 hours ago, Upp3 said:

 English is not my first language and I have much more German attitude to rules and regulations than people from land of the free and brave.

Hypothetical question: If you did something bad and they took away your driver's license could you drive? (Grand Tour reference)

 

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