ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

[jgh66 485]

Y&Y is doing a good job..

some numbers from germany: german championships 2019, singlehanders adult

Contender: 61 (4 foreigners)

Laser Std: 29

Laser Radial male: 54

Laser Radial female: 29

Finn: 46

OK: 77 ( but very international, 15 foreigners)

Seggerling: 31

Europe female: 24

Europe male: 46

So more Seggerlings than Olympic Laser...

[tillerman 1,273]

8 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Y&Y is doing a good job..

some numbers from germany: german championships 2019, singlehanders adult

Contender: 61 (4 foreigners)

Laser Std: 29

Laser Radial male: 54

Laser Radial female: 29

Finn: 46

OK: 77 ( but very international, 15 foreigners)

Seggerling: 31

Europe female: 24

Europe male: 46

So more Seggerlings than Olympic Laser...

Interesting. What does a Seggerling look like?

[jgh66 485]

9 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Interesting. What does a Seggerling look like?

DIY stich and glue boat.... mainly for older guys
	https://www.scap.ch/sammelsurium/bootsbau/bau-seggerling

[tillerman 1,273]

5 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

DIY stich and glue boat.... mainly for older guys
	https://www.scap.ch/sammelsurium/bootsbau/bau-seggerling

Thanks. Lovely boat.

I found another view. It's great to see classes like this doing well.

[jgh66 485]

2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Thanks. Lovely boat.

I found another view. It's great to see classes like this doing well.

You can get them also ready to sail with plastic hull from the current Contender world champion: http://www.hein-bootswerft.de/werft.html

[Bill5 1,614]

2 hours ago, tillerman said:

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/class/?fulltable=true

The UK dinghy scene certainly seems to be able to support a lot of different classes. The table above shows the top eight classes on the Nationals attendance table. Full table at the link. 
 

"Seems to be"? That is certainly an understatement... If we go back to the discussion on the view that the Laser is dying because of cost and complexity, what this chart tells us is that is untrue in the UK. Let's take out the junior boats and the double-handers, go a little deeper and see what we get over the past 5 years:

Class Name	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019
Supernova	67	110	89	101	94
RS Aero	77	70	114	67	80
Solo	69	83	90	102	70
International Moth	57	73	49	42	69
Laser Radial	104	65	0	85	53
Phantom	44	37	54	51	53
Blaze	35	35	45	49	46
Contender	37	35	34	44	43
D-Zero	26	40	32	37	43
Laser	44	23	0	34	37
Musto Skiff	40	47	47	56	36
Laser 4.7	34	19	0	50	32
Streaker	48	29	21	35	32

What is interesting here is that of all these boats, the Laser is the least expensive (not sure about the D-Zero), and is also the simplest - probably tied with the Aero. (Note - if you "Aero-count", the combo of the Radial, Standard and 4.7 would have the Laser at 182, 107, 169 and 122 in the years reported, putting it at the top of the heap). 

Regardless, there are a lot more dinghy racers in the UK willing to pay more and have a more complicated boat. So price and simplicity are not necessarily market drivers in the UK according to this data. It will be interesting to see what the numbers say if/when the cheaper LP Laser gets rolling. Right now the fully decked out model is cheaper than a top-end Opti!

In North America, my question remains - where are those who would have traditionally bought a Laser to race going? And sorry, Tiller, I don't think that is the same market as the Feva or Quest. I believe people are simply doing other things.

Please note my interest and comments are based on adult dinghy racing, and not youth sailing or pleasure craft sales. 

And also, for those who believe I am a died-in-the-wool Laser/ILCA devotee - looking at the list above, if I had the choice of a 20 boat local fleet in each and every one, the Laser would be my third last choice. I am too big for a Streaker and too old/scared for a Moth. All the other boats are way more interesting to me than a Laser.

 

[RobbieB 1,191]

So I said I would give new builder updates when I received one.  While it's not 100% what I was hoping for it's not a gloom and doom as BlatentEcho would have us think, (though he does have some accurate info-assuming he's a "him").

Of the 7 pre-qualified builders 6 have paid for molds.  All European and South American builders have received molds and are well into the process of their test builds.

The Asian molds have had a hard time making it across the oceans but are expected to arrive next week.

1 or 2 dealers in North America have entered dealer agreements with at least one of the European based builders with the first delivery of new boats expected before the end of the summer, (or somewhere close to that time frame).

ZIM NA has gone quiet....They have not asked for the return of their deposit, (as of this past week) but they are the only builder of the 7 to not move forward beyond the initial application.  This is super disheartening to me as I was really pulling for these guys to get back into the Laser/ILCA game.  They are not totally gone as of this time so hopefully they will move forward.

So there you go Wess.  The $9,000.00 new Laser price would appear to be for those who are well off and just really gotta have that PSA boat right NOW!, (even though they can be found for less by patient people).  West Coast sailing has discounted the LPE boat they have left.  Wonder if West Coast will stay in the Laser game?  Based on whet we are seeing it looks as though FRAND will bring down the cost of the ILCA significantly from the $9,000.00+ initial pricing we were seeing and make the boat a much better price than the Aero!

6 of 7 new builders are well into moving forward and we're expecting the first new builder hulls near the end of summer in NA.  That will mark 1 year from when the class actually lined up all the dominos to pursue new builders.  Given EVERYTHING that needed to happen I'd call that a success.  

Where's my RUM!

 

[VWAP 974]

5 hours ago, sosoomii said:

You’re being selective with numbers there.  The RS Feva regularly gets over 100 at UK Nationals.   

 

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/206547/RS-Aero-UK-Nationals-at-Abersoch-overall

https://www.elyc.org.uk/resources/Documents/2019 National Championships 280719.htm

[tillerman 1,273]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Let's take out the junior boats and the double-handers, go a little deeper and see what we get over the past 5 years:

Class Name	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019
Supernova	67	110	89	101	94
RS Aero	77	70	114	67	80
Solo	69	83	90	102	70
International Moth	57	73	49	42	69
Laser Radial	104	65	0	85	53
Phantom	44	37	54	51	53
Blaze	35	35	45	49	46
Contender	37	35	34	44	43
D-Zero	26	40	32	37	43
Laser	44	23	0	34	37
Musto Skiff	40	47	47	56	36
Laser 4.7	34	19	0	50	32
Streaker	48	29	21	35	32

 

And also, for those who believe I am a died-in-the-wool Laser/ILCA devotee - looking at the list above, if I had the choice of a 20 boat local fleet in each and every one, the Laser would be my third last choice. I am too big for a Streaker and too old/scared for a Moth. All the other boats are way more interesting to me than a Laser.

 

Interesting chart. So the top 3 adult singlehanders in attendance at UK Nationals in 2019 were the Supernova, the RS Aero and the Solo.

 

They all look like great choices!

[sosoomii 538]

^Those (VWAP) are Aeros, not Fevas...

I’m not a fan of adding the Aero 5, 7 and 9 numbers together to inflate the figures but I guess that’s just a subtle marketing ploy.

The main point is there are many good singlehanded out there - some faster, some cheaper, some more refined, some more friendly, some more comfortable and some prettier than a Laser.  Many are so similar in concept and size that it is straightforward to set a pretty accurate handicap to race between them all fairly, so no real need to buy into the fleet mentality either.  

[VWAP 974]

1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

 

 The $9,000.00 new Laser price would appear to be for those who are well off and just really gotta have that PSA boat right NOW!, (even though they can be found for less by patient people).  West Coast sailing has discounted the LPE boat they have left.  Wonder if West Coast will stay in the Laser game? 

 

 

there is a dealer on the other side of the country 

*Free store pick-up or call for shipping/ delivery quote

https://usonedesign.com/ilca-dinghy-standard/

 

 

[jgh66 485]

The ILCA Dinghy is the Gold standard in single-handed, one-design sailing. Every ILCA Dinghy in the world is identical. Strict class rules guarantee that it is the sailor, not the equipment, that makes the difference. ILCA Dinghy racing is a true test of skill.

ILCA Dinghy, Standard MK2 Complete includes:

• hull
• sail
• batten set
• sail numbers
• rudder, rudderhead
• centreboard
• standard tiller and extension
• carbon top section
• bottom section
• boom
• line kit.

Sail area – 7.06sqm

Suggested crew weight – 65kg

 

Who finds all the mistakes in that text? 

[tillerman 1,273]

16 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

The ILCA Dinghy is the Gold standard in single-handed, one-design sailing. Every ILCA Dinghy in the world is identical. Strict class rules guarantee that it is the sailor, not the equipment, that makes the difference. ILCA Dinghy racing is a true test of skill.

ILCA Dinghy, Standard MK2 Complete includes:

• hull
• sail
• batten set
• sail numbers
• rudder, rudderhead
• centreboard
• standard tiller and extension
• carbon top section
• bottom section
• boom
• line kit.

Sail area – 7.06sqm

Suggested crew weight – 65kg

 

Who finds all the mistakes in that text? 

Good to know it comes complete with hull.
 

[VWAP 974]

22 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

The ILCA Dinghy is the Gold standard in single-handed, one-design sailing. Every ILCA Dinghy in the world is identical. Strict class rules guarantee that it is the sailor, not the equipment, that makes the difference. ILCA Dinghy racing is a true test of skill.

 

 

Who finds all the mistakes in that text? 

It depends on your definition on identical. The rest is good

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/identical

[sosoomii 538]

7 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Good to know it comes complete with hull.
 

 No toe strap though...

65kg?

[sosoomii 538]

Not to mention the irony of a Mk2 version of identical boats

 

 

[jgh66 485]

What do they mean with gold standard? Made from the best and most expansive materials, with the latest high tec sails and fittings from titan or carbon? Aircraft grade laminates, each ply assembled with love and patience, carefully removed any tiny airbubbles, fully sandwich cored with autoclaved high pressure compaction, weight of hulls +- 100 grams and the hull comes with a 20 year guarantee against loss of stiffness? 

[JimC 671]

But because the Laser championship figure is anomalous,  those numerical comparisons above are pretty much worthless...

[Bill5 1,614]

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Interesting chart. So the top 3 adult singlehanders in attendance at UK Nationals in 2019 were the Supernova, the RS Aero and the Solo.

They all look like great choices!

My first "own" boat was a Solo. My dad traded our Fireball in to the local builder and got two Solos as the start of a fleet of 7. This was well before internet etc and that spring the Laser also showed up on the scene. Two years later, I had a Laser...

Tiller - your RS vision (pun intended) always shows. Aero accounting adds the three rigs together. As I said before, if the Laser did the same, their numbers are much larger. Here is how many Aeros attended the 2019 Nationals by rig:

Aero 7 (48 boats) - 10th; Aero 5 (23 boats) - 19th; Aero 9 (10 boats) 25th  

So the top three that year were Supernova, Solo and Moth. All are more complicated and more expensive than the Laser. 

[tillerman 1,273]

28 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

My first "own" boat was a Solo. My dad traded our Fireball in to the local builder and got two Solos as the start of a fleet of 7. This was well before internet etc and that spring the Laser also showed up on the scene. Two years later, I had a Laser...

 

My first boat was almost a Solo too. I went to an open house at a local sailing club and some enthusiastic Solo owner took me out into the dinghy park (in the dark) to see his Solo and to try to persuade me to buy one. But he didn't buy me enough beer for me to say yes straight away. I later talked to a colleague at work who knew a lot about sailing and he advised me that a Laser would suit me better. I then went to Minorca Sailing (must have been in 1981) and tried a Laser there and was convinced right away to buy a Laser.

But wait. This story does have a happy ending. In 2015 I went to Minorca Sailing again and tried an RS Aero for the first time. I had several days to test it out in different wind conditions and so I decided to buy an RS Aero... and lived happily ever after.



 

[tillerman 1,273]

1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

What do they mean with gold standard? Made from the best and most expansive materials, with the latest high tec sails and fittings from titan or carbon? Aircraft grade laminates, each ply assembled with love and patience, carefully removed any tiny airbubbles, fully sandwich cored with autoclaved high pressure compaction, weight of hulls +- 100 grams and the hull comes with a 20 year guarantee against loss of stiffness? 

I think "the gold standard" means something that used to be very popular... but was abandoned some time in the last century.

[jgh66 485]

Sounds to me more like Trump saying they are the best government worldwide in Corona times. Goldstandard pandemic response. No better is possible, not even BJ and his gang.. 

[sosoomii 538]

You look better in your photo than I’d imagined @tillerman

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

But wait. This story does have a happy ending. In 2015 I went to Minorca Sailing again and tried an RS Aero for the first time. I had several days to test it out in different wind conditions and so I decided to buy an RS Aero... and lived happily ever after.

 

[VWAP 974]

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

I think "the gold standard" means something that used to be very popular... but was abandoned some time in the last century.

something that is considered to be the best and that is used to judge the quality or level of other, similar things

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the gold standard

 

 

[sosoomii 538]

I think Tillerman had it right

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/gold-standard.asp

 

[VWAP 974]

3 hours ago, jgh66 said:

What do they mean with gold standard? Made from the best and most expansive materials, with the latest high tec sails and fittings from titan or carbon? Aircraft grade laminates, each ply assembled with love and patience, carefully removed any tiny airbubbles, fully sandwich cored with autoclaved high pressure compaction, weight of hulls +- 100 grams and the hull comes with a 20 year guarantee against loss of stiffness? 

They are referring to a mass produced boat built over a fifty  year run and continues to be actively  sailed by many from different social, economical levels , also raced recreationally and at a high levels in 120 countries around the world. 

 

[tillerman 1,273]

1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

Sounds to me more like Trump saying they are the best government worldwide in Corona times. Goldstandard pandemic response. No better is possible, not even BJ and his gang.. 

.
 

[jgh66 485]

3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Minorca Sailing again

Yes, great place. Been there once cause they were hosting the balearic championships Laser and Raceboard. Maybe a little bit too much "lake" feeling for balearic sailers, but incredible amount of boats there. Think they had 50 or 60 Lasers at that time, but don´t know in what condition, as we brought our own ones by ferry from Mallorca... Nice guys, hope they survive Corona and Johnson....

[tillerman 1,273]

23 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Yes, great place. Been there once cause they were hosting the balearic championships Laser and Raceboard. Maybe a little bit too much "lake" feeling for balearic sailers, but incredible amount of boats there. Think they had 50 or 60 Lasers at that time, but don´t know in what condition, as we brought our own ones by ferry from Mallorca... Nice guys, hope they survive Corona and Johnson....

All the boats at Minorca Sailing - including the Laser fleet - are in very good condition. The Lasers get a lot of use so I think they must replace them with new boats fairly frequently.  I would probably have gone back there this summer until the virus killed all such dreams. I sincerely hope they do survive.

https://minorcasailing.co.uk/sail/dinghy-sailing-fleet
 

 

[Bill5 1,614]

4 hours ago, tillerman said:

I then went to Minorca Sailing (must have been in 1981) and tried a Laser there and was convinced right away to buy a Laser.

But wait. This story does have a happy ending. In 2015 I went to Minorca Sailing again and tried an RS Aero for the first time. I had several days to test it out in different wind conditions and so I decided to buy an RS Aero... and lived happily ever after.

So between 1981 and 2015 you were unhappy? Gee TilleRSman, you probably should have done something. Were all your years of Laser sailing like a bad marriage that you couldn’t escape? Your years and years of Laser blogging all just a show? So sad.

[tillerman 1,273]

2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

So between 1981 and 2015 you were unhappy? Gee TilleRSman, you probably should have done something. Were all your years of Laser sailing like a bad marriage that you couldn’t escape? Your years and years of Laser blogging all just a show? So sad.

LOL. Of course not. I had many wonderful experiences through Laser sailing - many of which I wrote about on Proper Course.

Are you Canadian?

[sosoomii 538]

Interesting video on singlehanded sailing... if you dig maths!
 

 

[Bill5 1,614]

50 minutes ago, tillerman said:

LOL. Of course not. I had many wonderful experiences through Laser sailing - many of which I wrote about on Proper Course.

Are you Canadian?

At the risk of giving you an answer - yes I am.

[tillerman 1,273]

39 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Interesting video on singlehanded sailing... if you dig maths!
 

 

 

 

[Wavedancer II 122]

Interesting development: LP lowered the pricing of their 'Club' Lasers by a LOT:

Less than four grand for the basic version and a bit over four ($4190) for the XD version

In addition, an additional 10% off for the Spring sale

https://www.laserperformance.us/collections/laser-5

Would you really be missing that ISAF sticker?

 

 

[Jethrow 139]

But surely people see that the LP price has nothing to do with actual price and everything to with screwing over any other "Laser" type class or manufacturer. They can afford to take a loss for a while to make the others look bad.

[Bill5 1,614]

27 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

But surely people see that the LP price has nothing to do with actual price and everything to with screwing over any other "Laser" type class or manufacturer. They can afford to take a loss for a while to make the others look bad.

A club or school may want to take advantage of this.

 

[tillerman 1,273]

6 hours ago, Jethrow said:

But surely people see that the LP price has nothing to do with actual price and everything to with screwing over any other "Laser" type class or manufacturer. They can afford to take a loss for a while to make the others look bad.

Who cares about why they are doing it?

If you really want a Laser and you are not planning to sail in any ILCA-sanctioned events, then a good deal is a good deal. Go for it.

And maybe the "ILCA/PSA/6 new builders coming soon" consortium will have to lower their prices in the face of this competition.

Win, win.

[mockingbird 27]

I think the 4000 / 4500 € LP price is just right, with a modest profit margin . They have a stock of some 1000 boats to clear and they want to axe and bury the silly aussie /ILCA takeover.

When i ran a comparison between Laser retail price and a 125 cc motorcycle retail price throughout the (inflationist 70's , 80's and 90's) in the french Laser Newsletter the curves ware evenly matched until the Irish facility making the cheap gaudy couloured lasers went bust and the british factory took over with a focus more on the racing customers (though they still manufactured and sold lasers at a special price to Menorca sailing, Plas Menai , Mark Warner big UK owned sailing holidays organization).

By the mid 90's the Euro  laser clones (Yamaha Sea Hopper,  Estel , Vario and the french X4 )were as good as dead and same went for the Chrysler Marine Laser clone in the US, but sombody in France grabbed an X4 mould (there were dozens of them in clubs and boatyards) . If iremember wall  it is Virus , a successful manufacturer of seagoing rowing skiffs  and small castal camping trimarans.

They did their best to solve the issues with the X4 (mast step, Belcobalsa sandwich...etc) they did not sell many boats ( The X4 had a bad reputation by then , and i can testify because i had a chartered  X4 ripped open by a mast step failure in the middle of a windy La Rochelle week) but as i discussed with the guys at the Virus boatyard at the Paris boatshow...

They had priced their revamped X4 at something like 75% of the lasers price and told me they still made the same  profit margin as on their rowing skiffs

[Bill5 1,614]

1 hour ago, mockingbird said:

Chrysler Marine Laser clone in the US,

I don’t recall this. There have been a number of singlehander dinghies over the years- Banshee,  Force 5, US One etc - but they weren’t clones of the Laser. 

[jgh66 485]

Somewhere you can find the history of the Laser developement.

I think it was the goal to design a boat which can be build cheaper than 1000$ at the time. The basic idea was to build a boat in the most efficient way of that days, from the cheapest materials availible, with spars that even today may cost under 100$ to produce and reducing the work needed to build the boat to the max. I is not that difficult to find out prices for industrial grp parts of the same size and complexity... Price for aluminium is around 3€/kg including anodizing maybe 5€. Now go and put your rig onto a scale...

[mockingbird 27]

Well clones is not possibly the right term....some are more clone-ish than others... X4 and Sea Hopper by Yamaha vere very close copies, some others were a bit different  i think the boat was called the Man 'O War ...some even went this side of the Atlantic and a guy i know bought one on LeBonCoin (the french E bay)

[BlatantEcho 199]

On 5/23/2020 at 6:05 AM, RobbieB said:

So I said I would give new builder updates when I received one.  While it's not 100% what I was hoping for it's not a gloom and doom as BlatentEcho would have us think, (though he does have some accurate info-assuming he's a "him").

Of the 7 pre-qualified builders 6 have paid for molds.  All European and South American builders have received molds and are well into the process of their test builds.

The Asian molds have had a hard time making it across the oceans but are expected to arrive next week.

1 or 2 dealers in North America have entered dealer agreements with at least one of the European based builders with the first delivery of new boats expected before the end of the summer, (or somewhere close to that time frame).

ZIM NA has gone quiet....They have not asked for the return of their deposit, (as of this past week) but they are the only builder of the 7 to not move forward beyond the initial application.  This is super disheartening to me as I was really pulling for these guys to get back into the Laser/ILCA game.  They are not totally gone as of this time so hopefully they will move forward.

So there you go Wess.  The $9,000.00 new Laser price would appear to be for those who are well off and just really gotta have that PSA boat right NOW!, (even though they can be found for less by patient people).  West Coast sailing has discounted the LPE boat they have left.  Wonder if West Coast will stay in the Laser game?  Based on whet we are seeing it looks as though FRAND will bring down the cost of the ILCA significantly from the $9,000.00+ initial pricing we were seeing and make the boat a much better price than the Aero!

6 of 7 new builders are well into moving forward and we're expecting the first new builder hulls near the end of summer in NA.  That will mark 1 year from when the class actually lined up all the dominos to pursue new builders.  Given EVERYTHING that needed to happen I'd call that a success.  

Where's my RUM!

 

Mate, well done, this is fairly accurate information.  Surprised everyone here didn't have more to talk about with this.

I would say it's 80% accurate.  So, about 79% more than most posts here.  Rum for you.
FYI++ I don't know a single US dealer that has signed on with any of the European builders.
I know that all of the builders need volume to not die from the pretty bad ILCA deal - so they are chomping at the bit to sign up agents.
I know of 2-3 dealers in the USA who could even afford to pay for a container of boats up front.
 

It will get interesting the next 1-2 months, that's a fact.
 

--> I will be surprised if any of the good dealers bother with PSA much longer.  It's an expensive product, from a notoriously hard to deal with manufacturer.
They are not only not loyal to their dealers - they don't want dealers, it's a necessary evil for them they would rather do without.
I'd honestly expect PSA boats to fall out of favor after 2020 (only because this year, it was all you could get). Mate, they've just been greedy for too long.

--> Much cheaper alternatives coming from Asia for ILCA boats (not like clubs will buy ILCA boats, they will just buy Lasers)
And if you want to win - brands that have a long history of building winners (Ovington and Devotti in particular) will be better and cheaper than PSA.

--> Good for sailors. Bad for business.  Should be a complete cluster in the next 18 months.  Don't blink mate - game on!
If you think there was a shitfight before, now it will be a shitfight with blood in the streets.  And confused sailors wonder what the hell happened to their Laser class.  #bendover

 

 

[tillerman 1,273]

14 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

And if you want to win - brands that have a long history of building winners (Ovington and Devotti in particular) will be better and cheaper than PSA.

 

 

22 hours ago, jgh66 said:

The ILCA Dinghy is the Gold standard in single-handed, one-design sailing. Every ILCA Dinghy in the world is identical. Strict class rules guarantee that it is the sailor, not the equipment, that makes the difference. ILCA Dinghy racing is a true test of skill.

 

 

Hmmm.

[jgh66 485]

25 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 

 

Hmmm.

Optis managed to get it right, ILCA can also get it right.

[Gouvernail 2,877]

3 hours ago, mockingbird said:

same went for the Chrysler Marine Laser clone in the US,

More ignorant false bullshit from this fool mockingbird dope.

The Chrysler Dagger was introduced in 1969 before the TGIF was built. 
It is a McAlpine Downey design Bruce Kirby had an opportunity to see and improve upon before he designed the TGIF.

The Dagger was one of the boats sailed at the Playboy Club / Yachting Anerica’s Teacup Regatta and was in production two years before the Laser was introduced at the New York Boat show. 
 

I know nothing about the material written in the rest of mockingbird’s  post but he has previously written absolute BS on the subject of boat construction and readers should be aware the author has a dysfunctional relationship with the truth. 
 

[Bill5 1,614]

1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

Somewhere you can find the history of the Laser developement.

I think it was the goal to design a boat which can be build cheaper than 1000$ at the time. The basic idea was to build a boat in the most efficient way of that days, from the cheapest materials availible, with spars that even today may cost under 100$ to produce and reducing the work needed to build the boat to the max. I is not that difficult to find out prices for industrial grp parts of the same size and complexity... Price for aluminium is around 3€/kg including anodizing maybe 5€. Now go and put your rig onto a scale...

The genesis goes back to the 1970 Americas Teacup Trials. https://earwigoagin.blogspot.com/2020/01/winners-of-americas-teacup-regatta.html

Someone here will have a better link than this. Interesting the Laser (then TGIF) tied with the Banshee I mentioned above. 

[Bill5 1,614]

So we are now looking at possibly 6-7 new builders plus an option for a cheaper club boat. And - the club boat will be enviro friendly, manufactured in LP’s Greta compound in Portugal. Lots of boxes being ticked here! 

[tillerman 1,273]

Just now, Bill5 said:

So we are now looking at possibly 6-7 new builders plus an option for a cheaper club boat. And - the club boat will be enviro friendly, manufactured in LP’s Greta compound in Portugal. Lots of boxes being ticked here! 

[Bill5 1,614]

Or Plan B. Buy an Aero (eg) and sail handicap for the next 10 years against a 50 yr old Comet, a couple Lightnings and a Prindle. 

[tillerman 1,273]

3 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Or Plan B. Buy an Aero (eg) and sail handicap for the next 10 years against a 50 yr old Comet, a couple Lightnings and a Prindle. 

What are Comets, Lighnings and Prindles? We don't have any of them at my little lake club in Massachusetts.

[Bill5 1,614]

What are those boats in the photo? Aeros? Haven’t seen one in this neck of the woods yet. I hear they are all the rage in the UK, though. And Seattle - where the Tasar is very popular, too.

[tillerman 1,273]

47 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

What are those boats in the photo? Aeros? Haven’t seen one in this neck of the woods yet. I hear they are all the rage in the UK, though. And Seattle - where the Tasar is very popular, too.

Sorry to hear there are no RS Aeros near you @Bill5    It is true that  RS Aeros haven't penetrated yet to very corner of North America, but where I live things have taken off very nicely.

And yes, all those boats are RS Aeros and the shot was taken at my club in Massachusetts.

There are small groups of RS Aeros all along the Boston/NYC corridor (about 200 miles) and in the summer most of the major racing action is at regattas rather than clubs (which is also true for the local Laser owners.) In previous years there have been RS Aero regattas in Sharon MA, Wickford RI, Newport RI, Barrington RI, Bristol RI, Stonington CT, Essex CT, Westport CT, Hempstead Harbour NY,  and Rye NY. We have also had visitors from out of the area joining us from VT, up-state NY, MD, NC, FL, LA, CO, UT and even the UK. Many of us NE Aero sailors do some or all of the Florida regattas in the winter and have travelled to the West coast, France, Spain, Italy, UK and Australia etc. for major events.

Sure, someone could come up with some stats that prove that local Laser regattas are on average larger but, as far as I and all my Aero friends are concerned, it's a pretty good scene we have now only 5 years since the first boats landed. 

[Bill5 1,614]

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Sorry to hear there are no RS Aeros near you @Bill5    It is true that  RS Aeros haven't penetrated yet to very corner of North America, but where I live things have taken off very nicely.

And yes, all those boats are RS Aeros and the shot was taken at my club in Massachusetts.

There are small groups of RS Aeros all along the Boston/NYC corridor (about 200 miles) and in the summer most of the major racing action is at regattas rather than clubs (which is also true for the local Laser owners.) In previous years there have been RS Aero regattas in Sharon MA, Wickford RI, Newport RI, Barrington RI, Bristol RI, Stonington CT, Essex CT, Westport CT, Hempstead Harbour NY,  and Rye NY. We have also had visitors from out of the area joining us from VT, up-state NY, MD, NC, FL, LA, CO, UT and even the UK. Many of us NE Aero sailors do some or all of the Florida regattas in the winter and have travelled to the West coast, France, Spain, Italy, UK and Australia etc. for major events.

Sure, someone could come up with some stats that prove that local Laser regattas are on average larger but, as far as I and all my Aero friends are concerned, it's a pretty good scene we have now only 5 years since the first boats landed. 

Go get 'em!

[torrid 376]

Aero is a great option if there is a fleet near you.  I personally have moved all around the country the last twenty years, and there were always Lasers around,  Even in areas not known for sailing.  That's one of the main reasons I've stuck with that boat.

[tillerman 1,273]

14 minutes ago, torrid said:

Aero is a great option if there is a fleet near you.  I personally have moved all around the country the last twenty years, and there were always Lasers around,  Even in areas not known for sailing.  That's one of the main reasons I've stuck with that boat.

I understand that point of view.

But if everyone took that position it would be impossible for any new boat to take off. Ever.

That would make me sad. I like new things.

 

[Bill5 1,614]

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

I like new things.

This is the conundrum  ILCA is facing (among other things). On this very thread we have people who suffer stroke-like symptoms over any suggested changes to the boat, and those who are pushing hard for something new such as rigs, foils, construction techniques - you name it. Keeping all the sailing constituents happy is, indeed, a challenge. Add to that the IOC,  WS and rogue builders and you have a fucking nightmare. 
Hopefully the new builders will engage as we crawl out of this pandemic, and the ILCA dinghy will get rolling again. 

[tillerman 1,273]

29 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I like new things.

This is the conundrum  ILCA is facing (among other things). On this very thread we have people who suffer stroke-like symptoms over any suggested changes to the boat, and those who are pushing hard for something new such as rigs, foils, construction techniques - you name it. Keeping all the sailing constituents happy is, indeed, a challenge. Add to that the IOC,  WS and rogue builders and you have a fucking nightmare. 
Hopefully the new builders will engage as we crawl out of this pandemic, and the ILCA dinghy will get rolling again. 

I blame the RS Aero... and all who sail in her.
 

[Bill5 1,614]

14 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I blame the RS Aero... and all who sail in her.
 

For what?

[tillerman 1,273]

2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

For what?

Having too much fun.
Winning the Olympic Trials.
The number of posts in this thread.
Being too pleased about NOT being in the Olympics.
Directly or indirectly pretty much every issue that ILCA is facing.

You name it. It's all the fault of RS Aero sailors.



 

[Bill5 1,614]

Haha. You go with that TilleRSman! 

[tillerman 1,273]

6 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Haha. You go with that TilleRSman! 

It's more believable than some conspiracy theories in the news these days. #aerogate.

[Wess 2,448]

On 5/23/2020 at 9:05 AM, RobbieB said:

So I said I would give new builder updates when I received one.  While it's not 100% what I was hoping for it's not a gloom and doom as BlatentEcho would have us think, (though he does have some accurate info-assuming he's a "him").

Of the 7 pre-qualified builders 6 have paid for molds.  All European and South American builders have received molds and are well into the process of their test builds.

The Asian molds have had a hard time making it across the oceans but are expected to arrive next week.

1 or 2 dealers in North America have entered dealer agreements with at least one of the European based builders with the first delivery of new boats expected before the end of the summer, (or somewhere close to that time frame).

ZIM NA has gone quiet....They have not asked for the return of their deposit, (as of this past week) but they are the only builder of the 7 to not move forward beyond the initial application.  This is super disheartening to me as I was really pulling for these guys to get back into the Laser/ILCA game.  They are not totally gone as of this time so hopefully they will move forward.

So there you go Wess.  The $9,000.00 new Laser price would appear to be for those who are well off and just really gotta have that PSA boat right NOW!, (even though they can be found for less by patient people).  West Coast sailing has discounted the LPE boat they have left.  Wonder if West Coast will stay in the Laser game?  Based on whet we are seeing it looks as though FRAND will bring down the cost of the ILCA significantly from the $9,000.00+ initial pricing we were seeing and make the boat a much better price than the Aero!

6 of 7 new builders are well into moving forward and we're expecting the first new builder hulls near the end of summer in NA.  That will mark 1 year from when the class actually lined up all the dominos to pursue new builders.  Given EVERYTHING that needed to happen I'd call that a success.  

Where's my RUM!

 

 

On 5/24/2020 at 9:21 AM, BlatantEcho said:

Mate, well done, this is fairly accurate information.  Surprised everyone here didn't have more to talk about with this.

I would say it's 80% accurate.  So, about 79% more than most posts here.  Rum for you.
FYI++ I don't know a single US dealer that has signed on with any of the European builders.
I know that all of the builders need volume to not die from the pretty bad ILCA deal - so they are chomping at the bit to sign up agents.
I know of 2-3 dealers in the USA who could even afford to pay for a container of boats up front.
 

It will get interesting the next 1-2 months, that's a fact.
 

--> I will be surprised if any of the good dealers bother with PSA much longer.  It's an expensive product, from a notoriously hard to deal with manufacturer.
They are not only not loyal to their dealers - they don't want dealers, it's a necessary evil for them they would rather do without.
I'd honestly expect PSA boats to fall out of favor after 2020 (only because this year, it was all you could get). Mate, they've just been greedy for too long.

--> Much cheaper alternatives coming from Asia for ILCA boats (not like clubs will buy ILCA boats, they will just buy Lasers)
And if you want to win - brands that have a long history of building winners (Ovington and Devotti in particular) will be better and cheaper than PSA.

--> Good for sailors. Bad for business.  Should be a complete cluster in the next 18 months.  Don't blink mate - game on!
If you think there was a shitfight before, now it will be a shitfight with blood in the streets.  And confused sailors wonder what the hell happened to their Laser class.  #bendover

 

 

My gosh you folks have been busy.  Doesn't anyone get away and go sailing on long weekends anymore? 

My understanding is the truth is somewhere between the two above post.

Glad to see Robbie finally admitting that there are no molds installed /being used at Zim NA.  I have long said there is no ILCA market here to serve (except for a small boutique builder).  Agree Echo that the ILCA FRAND deal is horrible for new builder to come on line - very costly.  Bill you still never did list all the fees both per unit and up front that gets loaded onto boats by builders by way of this and the other ILCA deals and contracts... despite you repeatedly saying Tracey said he would answer you.  If all those fees were ever laid open for all to see (it will never happen), you will understand why I disagree that the $9000 PSA (actually closer to 10K if I recall when you get what you need for racing) is not an outlier, its the new norm.  ILCAs (unless made in volume in China) are going to be expensive. This is something else I have said from the beginning.  Agree w Echo that PSA's history with dealers, even local ones, is not good, but I disagree that they are going away. The winner in this bad deal is PSA and they make out like bandits even if they are not building.  But they will be unless and until a big volume China builder comes on line.  The unknown for me is what happens in EU and does TLC catch on and in what form (for grass roots or for the EU elite which is what LPE prefers).  While PSA was the big winner in all this, the big loser was EU Laser sailors.  I am really curious to see what happens and where that segment evolves to. 

[RobbieB 1,191]

On 5/24/2020 at 4:32 PM, torrid said:

Aero is a great option if there is a fleet near you.  I personally have moved all around the country the last twenty years, and there were always Lasers around,  Even in areas not known for sailing.  That's one of the main reasons I've stuck with that boat.

Ditto- NC, SC, FL, TX, AL for me.  Would sell my Laser to chase the latest fleet craze, (JY 15 was the last one that suckered me in) and always circled back to having a Laser in the garage.  

[Bill5 1,614]

1 hour ago, Wess said:

Bill you still never did list all the fees both per unit and up front that gets loaded onto boats by builders by way of this and the other ILCA deals and contracts... despite you repeatedly saying Tracey said he would answer you.  If all those fees were ever laid open for all to see (it will never happen), you will understand why I disagree that the $9000 PSA (actually closer to 10K if I recall when you get what you need for racing) is not an outlier, its the new norm. 

I gave it my best shot a few hundred/thousand posts ago, but I did not hear back from Tracy on the specifics. (Your misspelling of Tracy has become stale...) I have taken action and suggested a change in the Constitution for greater transparency.

So tell me, Wess - aside from the TBD pricing -  are you pleased the ILCA will have several builders and an option for a cheapie Laser of Portugal? It seems this satisfies your trimaranic wishes. I think most ILCA/Lasers racers will think it is pretty good. 

[Wess 2,448]

9 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

ILCA will have several builders and an option for a cheapie Laser of Portugal?

Swamped this morning but will just say that may be the biggest whopper posted in this entire thread. Unless there has been a significant shift in ILCA position.

[Bill5 1,614]

2 hours ago, Wess said:

Swamped this morning but will just say that may be the biggest whopper posted in this entire thread. Unless there has been a significant shift in ILCA position.

Bad phrasing on my part. Should read "...ILCA will have several builders and sailors will have an option for a cheapie Laser out of Portugal"

[BlatantEcho 199]

4 hours ago, Wess said:

 

Agree w Echo that PSA's history with dealers, even local ones, is not good, but I disagree that they are going away. The winner in this bad deal is PSA and they make out like bandits even if they are not building. 

My wording was unclear, and I agree with you 100% here.

The deal ALL the builders signed, makes sure PSA (and, really Global Sailing, the holding company for it) make $$$$$ on every single ILCA sold.
They can't lose there.  It's back to royalties like Bruce was getting for years.  So, yes, agree.  PSA will be laughing to the bank as they a substantial fee on *every boat, by every builder*

 

To clarify: I believe PSA built Lasers/ILCAs will go out of fashion - for the top level racers.
Who would buy one?
Most masters sailors bought them, as they were perceived as better.
Now that Ovington or Devotti are about to build boats - and we know they *actually* build great boats.
AND
They will likely be less than PSA boats since they all want to build market share quickly (especially with the last remaining dealers that still stay involved).

I just can't see a serious top level sailor picking a PSA hull, when they could get PSJ (not easily), but an Ovington or Devotti hull.
I mean, those guys just build Olympic winning hulls all day.  
Having a PSA Laser will be like having a Honda civic with a HUGE wing.  It impresses the people at the local club, but those in the know will certainly pick the real winners.

[tillerman 1,273]

1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

 

The deal ALL the builders signed, makes sure PSA (and, really Global Sailing, the holding company for it) make $$$$$ on every single ILCA sold.

They can't lose there.  It's back to royalties like Bruce was getting for years.  

How much is the royalty that Global Sailing will be collecting on every ILCA sold?

How much was the royalty that Bruce Kirby used to collect on every Laser sold?

 

[tillerman 1,273]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Bad phrasing on my part. Should read "...ILCA will have several builders and sailors will have an option for a cheapie Laser out of Portugal"

Wess - don't be so Canadian. You know what he really meant.

[Bill5 1,614]

2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Wess - don't be so Canadian. You know what he really meant.

Wess is starting to lose his footing. He is now picking on anything he can...

[jgh66 485]

Royalties are normally 2-3 % of the price ex works to the dealer. Let's say 2% of 4000 ex VAT dealer price = 80 € per boat.... If global sailing paid 2 millions for the design rights there need 25000 boats be build before they start earning money... Don't know exactly what they paid to Kirby... 

[BlatantEcho 199]

I think JGH is correct on Bruce's cut.  It was about $120 a boat or something.

I haven't read an agreement on the ILCA boats, so I can't say for *sure*.
But, I've been told on fairly reliable ways that it's closer to $350-400USD per hull that goes directly to PSA(Global Sailing) for every ILCA boat built.

[tillerman 1,273]

11 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Royalties are normally 2-3 % of the price ex works to the dealer. Let's say 2% of 4000 ex VAT dealer price = 80 € per boat.... If global sailing paid 2 millions for the design rights there need 25000 boats be build before they start earning money... Don't know exactly what they paid to Kirby... 

Global Sailing paid $2.6 million for all of Kirby's interest in the Kirby Sailboat design accord to this court case.   https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SKM_C554e16081516530.pdf

The same document says that the royalties paid to Kirby on Lasers in the olden days was 2% of the dealer wholesale price. 


 

[jgh66 485]

So let's say they need to build 20000-30000 boats themselfs, or others build and pay royalties. One of the best investments ever, especially if you have to deal with guys like LPE, who just refuse to pay.... so you have to add a lot of lawyers bills to the 2.6m, and still don't get your money... 

[sosoomii 538]

Well if you pay $2.6 million and sell 2,600 boats a year with a $400 cut, you’re RoI is 40% and you make your money back in two and a half years.  And then a million dollars a year thereafter, to set aside for court cases.

[jgh66 485]

Where did you find the 400$ story? I have only seen the 2% in the old contracts.... Well, of course LPE did not pay royalties for a lot of boats, so if I were working for Global Sailing I would of course try to get that money, before they get a new license.....