Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Good point.

But  the Sunfish is less athletic than the Laser.  I used to laugh at Sunfish 30 years ago when I had a Laser. They seemed so quaint, old fashioned, slow and fragile compared to the Laser.....but times and tides move along.   I think the reason I contemplate Sunfish is because its an older less serious group who sail them locally.

I still lust after a Viper 640 before I finally hang up the hiking boots.  And maybe Mr. Eye will indulge me one more time. The most important thing for me over the next decade in our lives is "time together".  We met  as sailors and have enjoyed sailing together in some chapters or our lives and sailing apart in others. I was always the more competitive sailor of us. He enjoys sailing but also tinkering with his vintage Porsche. We have both decided that we are entering a chapter where we want to sail together.  

The toughest part of the last 3 months was a 4 week period when we had to self isolate in the same house. I used the front door and would go up to our master bedroom. He used the backdoor and slept in the guest room. I was seeing CV19 patients at the hospital and although I was not front line and had highest standard of protective protocol, we decided we should stay apart until  2 weeks after my last patient exposure.  We have a glass porch and I would sit in the living room and he would sit in the porch , separated by a pane of glass.  I was fine.....one gets into a professional frame of mind and we just "do our job". But Mr. Eye is a sentimental guy  (despite what you all say , men are mush compared to women) and I could see it was hard on him. He would put his hand on the glass so that we could touch through the glass .   As I say...sentimental bs.....but despite all the ups and downs over the years, I hooked  a good 'un.   He is still looking forward to going out drinking again with his car buddies and our sailing buddies.....but I realize now more than ever that the most important thing in his life is me!  It is a very good feeling (I used to suspect it was his damn cars but actually it is me). 

So yeah......I cant wait to start racing sailboats again. Im not sure what it will be but I feel that my sailing will be less about winning (and those who have sailed with me  can attest that I liked winning) and more about good friends and time with Monsignor Eye.

Good fortune to the Laser sailors.  It was a wonderful part of my life.  We had his and hers Lasers when we were young and went to many regattas. I hope all the fighting stops and the builders and class find common ground with the sailors. It all seems so petty in the era of CV19.

Great post but when you say sail together do you mean exclusively race?  In the same boat or against each other?  How about cruise? 

I was equally lucky in the spouse department.  She loves time on the water; sailing and cruising but not racing. Helped bring a beat up cruising trimaran back to life. 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I received a personal thank you for my input.   Wonder how many others took the time to work the survey....Of course, you gotta be a class member first so....

After some consideration, I decided not to waste more of my life offering advice to those who want to control everything having to do with Lasers. 
     We have a fundamental difference which simply cannot be resolved.

They think it is most important they be in charge 

I think it is most important we have great fleets Socializing and racing 
 

 

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43 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

After some consideration, I decided not to waste more of my life offering advice to those who want to control everything having to do with Lasers. 
     We have a fundamental difference which simply cannot be resolved.

They think it is most important they be in charge 

I think it is most important we have great fleets Socializing and racing 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

 

They think it is most important they be in charge 

I think it is most important we have great fleets Socializing and racing 
 

 

This is why we need more women in sailing.

All the drama of the last few years has been about males competing with each other about who is in charge.

It wouldn't have happened if women were running the show.

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Racing any boat is fun.  I prefer OD and as long as there's 10+ boats on the line I'll race just about anything.

I have never owned or helmed anything but OD.

I occasionally crew for PHRF boats but for me personally I don't find serious PHRF satisfying.  Im not taking anything away from those who. It just doesnt work for me.

Casual PHRF with friends is a derivation of day sailing so I enjoy it.

I started racing one design at a disorganized high school sailing program on a river. There was no coaching and rule knowledge was haphazard but I learnt to sail and hung out with some cool kids.  I was a walk-on at college and really got hooked. I was crew. Straight after college while at Med School I bought a Laser and was driving. I never looked back. I also stayed in touch with one of the boys I met at college sailing. Good lookin' fella with an easy going smile . He had a Laser and we met at a few regattas. I was a Med Studentand not ready for a "steady"  but we kept on running into each other with sailing friends in common.   I cannot even recall how the first date came about .  He realized long before I did. He had a motorbike and I was riding on the back and one evening getting a ride home from the sailing club I noticed I was holding onto the driver more than I needed to only for safety.  He sailed, he had an adventurous streak, he was smart and I could beat him on light air days and he thought that was cool.  Plus he was good looking (I know I said that already but I have to remind myself with photos nowadays). He still has that darn smile and even though he can drive me nuts ......he has a good heart. He is useless at fixing anything around the house that does not have a carburetor but  Im keeping him until I find something better. He says I love the dog more than him.  I believe in keeping 'em guessing so I let him think that, but its not actually true  + thus far I dont have to pick up his feces when we go for walks.

As long as there are 5 OD boats on the line, I can have fun.

I'll sail against or with Senor Eye.  I thought the Viper 640 might be a boat that we could sail together, its actually very spacious for the middle person. It sails like a Laser for the young at heart with limbs getting a little weary.  We sailed a J70 but the expense and level of professionalism got a little tiresome. Some of the pros were good company, some less so.  It was a good time but we moved on.

 

Anyway.......this summer a Sunfish might fufill the gap.   

I love the Laser and all the happy chapters it has meant in my life. We were down at Bitter End a couple of winters ago and we both jumped into Lasers.  It brought back some very happy memories.

All this angst within the laser for the last 5 years is sad to this sailor. The Laser for me is a happy boat that was always about fun and a lot of good friends. It was more fun than anything else than was around when it first came out and it still can be fun.  Y'all just need to get out and sail with friends and get away from the politics. Life is short and you will never look back and savor the memories of arguing online but you will savor the memories of that first cusp of the crisp sea breeze and leaning back into your hiking straps.

I have sailed dozens of classes in my life but none of them had that good feeling when you lock into your Laser hiking strap, give a sharp tug on the mainsheet as you bear away and "send it".   It is something very basic and fun.

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3 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

try F18, if there´s a fleet...

I was thinking of the same thing - lots of fun OD beach cat fleets - when she wrote “send it” but you do lose that locked in feel upwind that you get in a Laser. Get a J22 and a third or a 505 but they ain’t so broadly active anymore. Laser is still pretty unique globally. If it does continue to fragment I sure hope something gets traction and replaces it quickly. 

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

I was thinking of the same thing - lots of fun OD beach cat fleets - when she wrote “send it” but you do lose that locked in feel upwind that you get in a Laser. Get a J22 and a third or a 505 but they ain’t so broadly active anymore. Laser is still pretty unique globally. If it does continue to fragment I sure hope something gets traction and replaces it quickly. 

there are some good girls helming 505s, but very hard work for a Laser sailer to become a good crew....... I would jump back into that class if I could find a crew...

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2 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

there are some good girls helming 505s, but very hard work for a Laser sailer to become a good crew....... I would jump back into that class if I could find a crew...

Where are you that 505s are still active locally?

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Just now, Wess said:

Where are you that 505s are still active locally?

dutch-german border. But 505s only active in GER

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7 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I received a personal thank you for my input.   Wonder how many others took the time to work the survey....Of course, you gotta be a class member first so....

I got a message also. Things are moving FWD nicely. 

Read some old Laser NA newsletters. It cleared up a few things in this thread. 

Really funny  sad stuff

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25 minutes ago, VWAP said:

I got a message also. Things are moving FWD nicely. 

Read some old Laser NA newsletters. It cleared up a few things in this thread. 

Really funny  sad stuff

Me to but from the eurilca representative.

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6 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

  Y'all just need to get out and sail with friends and get away from the politics. Life is short and you will never look back and savor the memories of arguing online but you will savor the memories of that first cusp of the crisp sea breeze and leaning back into your hiking straps.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Soon = how many days now?

Are there more or fewer builders?

Can you get a cheap Laser now?

Seriously, Wess, and respectfully, why do you actually care?

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Seriously, Bill, and you know this is 100% factually correct... since you asked...

1.) today, 441 days later there are still "fewer" builders and it will be many more days till there are "more" if there ever are; and,

2.) because as I explained I have plans to buy a new boat and get back into it and the class has all but abandoned the club/grass roots scene.  To paraphrase Tracy from many pages ago (this is from recall and not an exact quote but unless deleted its still there) the class is focused maintaining its Olympics status and growth from China and Asia.  Those are not things I care about.  Not fragmenting the class and expanding access for grass roots club level Laser sailors in NA and Europe is what I do care about and I believed and still believe there are far better ways to do that then the path the class is current on which already has and continues to fragment Laser sailing and sailors and severely corrupted the original vision of both the boat and the class in a pursuit of control and money.  Hell; after the next vote it wont even be called the Laser anymore.

I respect your right to hold a different opinion and to write whatever you like in support of your position but that is a two way street.

Not that anything written here will make any difference.  Still its kinda fun and occasionally informative.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Seriously, Bill, and you know this is 100% factually correct... since you asked...

1.) today, 441 days later there are still "fewer" builders and it will be many more days till there are "more" if there ever are; and,

2.) because as I explained I have plans to buy a new boat and get back into it and the class has all but abandoned the club/grass roots scene.  To paraphrase Tracy from many pages ago (this is from recall and not an exact quote but unless deleted its still there) the class is focused maintaining its Olympics status and growth from China and Asia.  Those are not things I care about.  Not fragmenting the class and expanding access for grass roots club level Laser sailors in NA and Europe is what I do care about and I believed and still believe there are far better ways to do that then the path the class is current on which already has and continues to fragment Laser sailing and sailors and severely corrupted the original vision of both the boat and the class in a pursuit of control and money.  Hell; after the next vote it wont even be called the Laser anymore.

I respect your right to hold a different opinion and to write whatever you like in support of your position but that is a two way street.

Not that anything written here will make any difference.  Still its kinda fun and occasionally informative.

Well, there are facts and then there are opinions. I consider the number of builders increasing and the availability of a cheaper Laser to be facts. I have emailed Ovington to get their word. But I am comfortable that both these are facts.

Opinions? I must say I have different views than you do on certain items. You have negatively opined at various times on Bruce Kirby, ILCA, ILCA Executives (generally and personally), LP, IOC, the Olympics, WS, PSA - with them all being one or more of: thieves, idiots, incompetent, liars, deceitful, class destroying - and other such charming characterizations. I am challenged with some of these entities, but - aside from WS - have been less than venom-spitting. So, I do respect your opinions (as wrong as most of them are :P).

However, there is one opinion you have held which I asked you about before, but you have dodged answering  must have overlooked. What are your expectations of ILCA vis-à-vis the grass roots sailor? And - what other international classes meet those expectations? And you can't include kids' boats. 

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Bill -

I don't even know where to start.  I am happy to joke and troll or I am happy to have a serious fact based discussion.  That decision is largely made by what others write.  In your case, the statement above is disingenuous at best on many points (which is fine... like I said I am happy to troll or have fun too).  Regardless, the obvious and simple fact is LPE was terminated as a class approved builder 441 days ago.  The class had 3 approved builders 442 days ago but for today and the other 441 days there are only 2 approved builders.  Two is less than three even in Canada and therefore "fewer" not "more."  Now I agree that Ovington may eventually be a class approved builder but they are not today and have not been for the last... well forever.  If and when Ovington is approved you will have 3 approved builders; the same as before.  "Same" is not "more" even in Canada. 

Hugs and kises; peace and love.  But still a fact is a fact is a fact.

Wess

PS - I really do like Canada.  Even Canadian lawnmowers.  But don't out me and tell anyone.

PPS - Have a good weekend.  Time for hiking and sailing.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Wess said:

Regardless, the obvious and simple fact is LPE was terminated as a class approved builder 441 days ago.  The class had 3 approved builders 442 days ago but for today and the other 441 days there are only 2 approved builders.  Two is less than three even in Canada and therefore "fewer" not "more."  

This is true.  Now- you know with the licensing thing ILCA had a lot of work ahead of them when they terminated LPE as a builder.

One of these items required a few changes for the class rules which was handled last summer.  Another crucial element, (I believe) was remaining an Olympic class which was not actually 100% squared away until last November.  Only then could ILCA truly pursue the new builder applications.  I do believe ILCA underestimated the time and effort that would be required on this part of the change and they have actually admitted that.  However, the new builder calendar really can't start ticking until the final World Sailing okie dokie was passed last November.

Then they had to get new molds made as LPE didn't just say, "gee wiz guys, ok, here's all of your molds and builder manuals back, (which is a whole other subject).  

Let's not forget CORONA thrown in the middle.

Rome wasn't built in a day nor was it disassembled in a day.  Things do take time.  

Now- you could argue, "Well ILCA should have had this all lined up before hand."  However, wouldn't that ad spark to the fire that ILCA had been planning this for a while behind everyone's back?  Given this and the fact ILCA gave LPE a good period of time to sign up for the new rules and remain a builder I think the whole, "ILCA was out to get them theory is blown". 

The pricing thing:  PSA might be taking advantage of the situation, (they might not) but it's a free market.  If people are buying then that's good because buyers are happy and sellers are happy.  I'm a firm believer things will get more competitive once additional builders are on board.  No- We won't see $ 5,000.00 brand new, fully rigged ILCA boats.  The volume is not there and things cost more than they used to.  Didn't you have a grandpa that used to talk about the price of bread or a gallon of gas in the 1950's?   

I believe your expectations are beyond "reasonable" in this situation, (I think I've said this like 5 times already...). 

However, I'm still more than happy to have some rum with you regardless who's buying.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, aroy210677 said:

This ignores that fact that, there are now TWO classes!!!  

Laser & ILCA

LP isn't going away. They are still building Lasers. And they are selling a lot more than even *I* expected.

And you know what happens on the local level?  Everyone shrugs. No one cares.
Since 99.9% of sailors will never sail a Worlds, or NAs - why would anyone aside from the very highest level sailor buy an ILCA boat?
You can get a new Laser, for half the price, and your local club will happily have you join them on the line.

So, since Lasers and ILCA boats are not built the same. Hulls, foils (rigs????)

It's a 1 and a half design, and that's the way it's going to be.

 

The class got more elitist, more expensive, and abandoned one-design.
BUT ---> at least the most expensive version of the boat stayed in the Olympics.  :wacko::wacko:
 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Rome wasn't built in a day nor was it disassembled in a day.  Things do take time.

5 minutes ago, Wikipedia said
In 376, unmanageable numbers of 
Goths and other non-Roman people, fleeing from the Huns, entered the Empire. In 395, after winning two destructive civil wars, Theodosius I died, leaving a collapsing field army and the Empire, still plagued by Goths, divided between the warring ministers of his two incapable sons. Further barbarian groups crossed the Rhine and other frontiers and, like the Goths, were not exterminated, expelled or subjugated. The armed forces of the Western Empire became few and ineffective, and despite brief recoveries under able leaders, central rule was never effectively consolidated.

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11 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

 

LP isn't going away. They are still building Lasers. And they are selling a lot more than even *I* expected.

And you know what happens on the local level?  Everyone shrugs. No one cares.
Since 99.9% of sailors will never sail a Worlds, or NAs - why would anyone aside from the very highest level sailor buy an ILCA boat?
You can get a new Laser, for half the price, and your local club will happily have you join them on the line.

 

This is a good thing for grassroots sailing. Yes?

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

This is a good thing for grassroots sailing. Yes?

I mean, holistically, yeah, that's for sure.

Cheaper boats means more people can sail nice boats, and it means used boats just dropped in value a lot...
But, in the macro sense, it's good.

 

In the ILCA/Laser class sense, it's an epic cluster.
They did what they said they wouldn't do.  Divided the strongest class, into two camps.

It's also not evenly split (99.9% of sailors have Laser, .1% have ILCAs), but ILCA is in power now. So, they are calling the shots.
Grass roots sailors don't matter, it's only the OLYMPICS tillerman. 

 

It's only if you buy a new ILCA boat that gets PSA money, then you matter.
If you buy a new Laser and sail it at your club, you are the enemy of ILCA.
What a money grabbing scam.

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6 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:


What a money grabbing scam.

Don't go so hard on LPE

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40 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

I mean, holistically, yeah, that's for sure.

Cheaper boats means more people can sail nice boats, and it means used boats just dropped in value a lot...
But, in the macro sense, it's good.

 

In the ILCA/Laser class sense, it's an epic cluster.
They did what they said they wouldn't do.  Divided the strongest class, into two camps.

It's also not evenly split (99.9% of sailors have Laser, .1% have ILCAs), but ILCA is in power now. So, they are calling the shots.
Grass roots sailors don't matter, it's only the OLYMPICS tillerman. 

 

It's only if you buy a new ILCA boat that gets PSA money, then you matter.
If you buy a new Laser and sail it at your club, you are the enemy of ILCA.
What a money grabbing scam.

The ILCA is in the Olympics. The Olympic sailors are happy.

LPE is sailing Lasers at a great price. The grassroots sailors are happy.

Kids will grow up sailing Lasers and if they really want to have a shot at the Olympics they will switch to ILCAs when they are ready for a serious campaign.

Win. Win.

I don't know why you say ILCAs or Lasers are a money grabbing scam. The builders and dealers always were in the game to make a profit. The better ones realized that making good boats and promoting grass root sailing was the best way to make a profit. Not so sure it will be a very easy for anybody to make a profit when there are 8 ILCA builders. But that's capitalism for you.
 

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

The pricing thing:  PSA might be taking advantage of the situation, (they might not) but it's a free market.

The PSA boats are still the same price in Australia as they were a couple of years ago, it's 100 pounds cheaper to buy a PSA boat in the UK than it is to buy one in Australia, and it's about 260 USD more to buy one in the USA.  Doesn't look like they're taking advantage of things at all...

In other news, the price of the Aero went up by $1000 AUD in Australia, so it's no longer the same price as a new Laser here

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

Bill -

I don't even know where to start.  I am happy to joke and troll or I am happy to have a serious fact based discussion.  That decision is largely made by what others write.  In your case, the statement above is disingenuous at best on many points (which is fine... like I said I am happy to troll or have fun too).  Regardless, the obvious and simple fact is LPE was terminated as a class approved builder 441 days ago.  The class had 3 approved builders 442 days ago but for today and the other 441 days there are only 2 approved builders.  Two is less than three even in Canada and therefore "fewer" not "more."  Now I agree that Ovington may eventually be a class approved builder but they are not today and have not been for the last... well forever.  If and when Ovington is approved you will have 3 approved builders; the same as before.  "Same" is not "more" even in Canada. 

Hugs and kises; peace and love.  But still a fact is a fact is a fact.

Wess

PS - I really do like Canada.  Even Canadian lawnmowers.  But don't out me and tell anyone.

PPS - Have a good weekend.  Time for hiking and sailing.

 

 

And yet again (third time) you dodged the question:

15 hours ago, Bill5 said:

However, there is one opinion you have held which I asked you about before, but you have dodged answering  must have overlooked. What are your expectations of ILCA vis-à-vis the grass roots sailor? And - what other international classes meet those expectations? And you can't include kids' boats. 

Golf and sailing for me this weekend.

PS - based on the above, the day is near where more builders will be a fact. So all that will be left is for you to complain about is the fees. 

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My gosh you folks get riled up for a Friday evening. Doesn’t anyone do sunset booze cruise sails anymore? Just me? Sorry Bill it’s hiking today and sailing again tomorrow. Too much time in a boson chair fixing stuff this past week to waste time with you but as a preview.... I got way more than fees. So much more so little time!

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

My gosh you folks get riled up for a Friday evening. Doesn’t anyone do sunset booze cruise sails anymore? Just me? Sorry Bill it’s hiking today and sailing again tomorrow. Too much time in a boson chair fixing stuff this past week to waste time with you but as a preview.... I got way more than fees. So much more so little time!

Delighted to know I am wasting your time! While you are preparing your next salvo, please do share your always insightful thoughts on this:

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 7:45 AM, Bill5 said:

However, there is one opinion you have held which I asked you about before, but you have dodged answering  must have overlooked. What are your expectations of ILCA vis-à-vis the grass roots sailor? And - what other international classes meet those expectations? And you can't include kids' boats. 

 

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It's funny how some still don't get it. LPE is undertaking a "scorched earth" policy. They know they are going to get hit hard at some point on 3 fronts. The first is that under the agreement they had, which they are not disputing, they have to return all Laser/ILCA molds to the class association. Next, they will have problems sourcing class legal parts. While everybody might be happy with LPE building non approved hulls to the one design standard, how will people react when the other parts don't comply - what happens you have non class legal spars, foils and sails coming onto the market. Fortunately, it won't be a problem for long because of the problems facing them in court and the way the rulings are going. It seems pretty clear to me that at some point in the next year or so, the size of the judgement that will be handed down will lead to Rastigar shutting up shop. There is no way that Rastigar is going to fork out millions(last I heard was that LPE owned over $2.5m).

Knowing all of that, Rastigar is trying to fuck the market for everybody else. He wants to sell as many boats as he can in the remaining time he has and is prepared to reduce his margins to do so. The added benefit of doing this is that it might put off some of the new builders who won't want to compete at these prices.The only way that LPE stays in the game long term is if those new builders fade away and the ILCA and WS come crawling back and pleed with LPE to rejoin the fold, which would only happen on LPE's terms.

Word is that suppliers are very wary of LPE and are not extending them much credit, if at all. 

Support LPE as much as you want and enjoy it while you can. Their current actions are harming the long term future of the class but at least they won't be doing so for too much longer

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58 minutes ago, SimonN said:

It's funny how some still don't get it. LPE is undertaking a "scorched earth" policy. They know they are going to get hit hard at some point on 3 fronts. The first is that under the agreement they had, which they are not disputing, they have to return all Laser/ILCA molds to the class association. Next, they will have problems sourcing class legal parts. While everybody might be happy with LPE building non approved hulls to the one design standard, how will people react when the other parts don't comply - what happens you have non class legal spars, foils and sails coming onto the market. Fortunately, it won't be a problem for long because of the problems facing them in court and the way the rulings are going. It seems pretty clear to me that at some point in the next year or so, the size of the judgement that will be handed down will lead to Rastigar shutting up shop. There is no way that Rastigar is going to fork out millions(last I heard was that LPE owned over $2.5m).

Knowing all of that, Rastigar is trying to fuck the market for everybody else. He wants to sell as many boats as he can in the remaining time he has and is prepared to reduce his margins to do so. The added benefit of doing this is that it might put off some of the new builders who won't want to compete at these prices.The only way that LPE stays in the game long term is if those new builders fade away and the ILCA and WS come crawling back and pleed with LPE to rejoin the fold, which would only happen on LPE's terms.

Word is that suppliers are very wary of LPE and are not extending them much credit, if at all. 

Support LPE as much as you want and enjoy it while you can. Their current actions are harming the long term future of the class but at least they won't be doing so for too much longer


You do know that "non class legal spars, foils and sails" have been available for years, don't you?  

What would grass roots sailing be without them?

It's too late to close the stable door. That horse has bolted.

 

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:


You do know that "non class legal spars, foils and sails" have been available for years, don't you?  

What would grass roots sailing be without them?

It's too late to close the stable door. That horse has bolted.

 

https://www.sailboats.co.uk/shop-by-boat/international-laser-class-association-dinghy/foils-foil-accessories
 

ILCA daggerboard £565, “replacement daggerboard” £243.83.  Rudder £480 vs £190.  Boom £220 vs £96.

 Not condoning buying replica parts, but the temptation is obvious unless you intend to compete at ILCAorganised events.

This from the Sailboats website, who told me at the Dinghy Show in March that they only sell class legal stuff.

Oh, and masts, OMG. £410 vs £193, but a fancy composite class legal radial (oops, ILCA 6) mast is £1428.  I know they last longer, but that is an expensive mast for a crappy sail.  Might as well go the whole hog and put the decent Bethwaite rig on it for that.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

https://www.sailboats.co.uk/shop-by-boat/international-laser-class-association-dinghy/foils-foil-accessories
ILCA daggerboard £565, “replacement daggerboard” £243.83.  Rudder £480 vs £190.  Boom £220 vs £96.

 Not condoning buying replica parts, but the temptation is obvious unless you intend to compete at ILCAorganised events.

Hmm, In the UK ILCAorganised means UKLA, yes?    So, if I showed up at the Inlands this Autumn with an "unplaqued" boat... do you think they would turn me away?

(For clarity- hypothetical question, I don't have one. OTOH, If I'm taking my daughter, it might be nice to sail while there, and my current boat is pretty beaten up. I can't justify £5000 for a "new" ILCA any more than I can justify a week off work to take part in the Nationals (even if I could sail well enough to take part!)... but c. £3250 for an ex-display Club boat to use on a weekend when I'd be there anyway seems more palatable...)

Cheers,

             W.

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11 hours ago, SimonN said:

 They know they are going to get hit hard at some point on 3 fronts. The first is that under the agreement they had, which they are not disputing, they have to return all Laser/ILCA molds to the class association.

Its much more complicated than that though because of all the shell companies (I nearly wrote shill companies. Hmm...) Laser Performance Europe is losing all the court cases and will be out of the Laser business and required, if I remember correctly, to firstly sell all the equipment to another Laser builder and only then return moulds and tooling. But Laser Performance Europe is nearly dead already, certainly doesn't have any money, and has already disposed of all its tooling and equipment to Laser Performance LLC who were an authorised Laser builder at the time, and are not party to any of the court cases. So LPE would appear to have already fulfilled its obligations with regards to that part of the contracts. And I don't believe Laser Performance LLC have signed any contracts with Global Sailing, Kirby inc or whatever, because the fundamental rule change in LPEs favour meant they didn't have to.  I suspect to get the Rastegar empire out of the Laser game completely (even if its possible) would take many more years of court cases and very deep pockets.

I imagine that Rastegar expects that no-one else will have sufficiently deep pockets. I doubt ILCA do. I don't disagree with your implied proposition that LPE are conducting predatory pricing to destroy the business for competitors, but I'm not entirely sure its scorched earth in the "I know I'm losing" sense. My guess is that its more subtle than that.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

Hmm, In the UK ILCAorganised means UKLA, yes?    So, if I showed up at the Inlands this Autumn with an "unplaqued" boat... do you think they would turn me away?

They've been turning people with replica sails away for years, so why would you think they wouldn't?

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

They've been turning people with replica sails away for years, so why would you think they wouldn't?

Participation is falling, change of leadership, recognition that there are many Laser sailors who don't bother coming and that they are explicitly trying to reach out to.

 There were several parents-of-sailors at the last Nationals I attended who (like me) were there with their children and own and sail Lasers but who did not bring them to the event and sail... surely that isn't how things should be? The class leadership is aware of that and, I understand,  is actively trying to encourage more Laser sailors to come to their events... 

 In that scenario, turning away an "ice blue" LPE-built Laser that could be (have been?) plaqued by simple sending a cheque to LPE and glueing the plate onto the hull doesn't seem quite the same as screening out replica sails... and is surely contrary to their objectives?

 I daresay it would be easier for them if the problem didn't arise... but I read earlier on this thread that there's discussion within UKLA on whether to align with TLC... and, as I've said before, it seems downright contrary to have as an event sponsor a boatbuilder that makes boats you won't allow to take part!

Cheers,

              W.

 

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On 6/12/2020 at 1:33 PM, BlatantEcho said:

 

LP isn't going away. They are still building Lasers. And they are selling a lot more than even *I* expected.
 

Is the UK still on lockdown?

I bet they are simply selling off existing stock.

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31 minutes ago, CenterboardBrake said:

Is the UK still on lockdown?

I bet they are simply selling off existing stock.

When is their big move to Portugal?

Portugal_campus_4.jpg?v=1584644114

 

Edited by Bill5
Added photo
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1 hour ago, tillerman said:


Cue -----------  to say that there are more hidden fees not included in PSA's list.

That link is useless. They have no line item for hidden fees. 

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Only have a few moments so will have to be quick...

On 6/12/2020 at 5:38 PM, tillerman said:

LPE is sailing Lasers at a great price. The grassroots sailors are happy.

Kids will grow up sailing Lasers and if they really want to have a shot at the Olympics they will switch to ILCAs when they are ready for a serious campaign.

Win. Win.

Can you support that statement with any fact on the ground?  Any example?   I am curious if anyone can name any  example of where a club welcomed and allowed LPE non plaqued club boats to race in its Laser fleet.  It would be great if they did but I don't think its happened - even in Europe.  Would love to be proven wrong. I also don't think its viable long term as you will see ILCA evolve their boat such that the LPE club Laser is not the same.

On 6/14/2020 at 4:22 AM, sosoomii said:

https://www.sailboats.co.uk/shop-by-boat/international-laser-class-association-dinghy/foils-foil-accessories
 

ILCA daggerboard £565, “replacement daggerboard” £243.83.  Rudder £480 vs £190.  Boom £220 vs £96.

 Not condoning buying replica parts, but the temptation is obvious unless you intend to compete at ILCAorganised events.

This from the Sailboats website, who told me at the Dinghy Show in March that they only sell class legal stuff.

Oh, and masts, OMG. £410 vs £193, but a fancy composite class legal radial (oops, ILCA 6) mast is £1428.  I know they last longer, but that is an expensive mast for a crappy sail.  Might as well go the whole hog and put the decent Bethwaite rig on it for that.

Where oh where does all that difference?  Que Tiller...

10 hours ago, tillerman said:


Cue @Wess to say that there are more hidden fees not included in PSA's list.

OK, there are more hidden fees not included in PSA's list.  As a starter...

Didn't our class officials mention, on these very pages, the fees paid to Kirby... where is that on the list? 

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On 6/13/2020 at 8:00 PM, SimonN said:

It's funny how some still don't get it. LPE is undertaking a "scorched earth" policy. They know they are going to get hit hard at some point on 3 fronts. The first is that under the agreement they had, which they are not disputing, they have to return all Laser/ILCA molds to the class association. Next, they will have problems sourcing class legal parts. While everybody might be happy with LPE building non approved hulls to the one design standard, how will people react when the other parts don't comply - what happens you have non class legal spars, foils and sails coming onto the market. Fortunately, it won't be a problem for long because of the problems facing them in court and the way the rulings are going. It seems pretty clear to me that at some point in the next year or so, the size of the judgement that will be handed down will lead to Rastigar shutting up shop. There is no way that Rastigar is going to fork out millions(last I heard was that LPE owned over $2.5m).

Knowing all of that, Rastigar is trying to fuck the market for everybody else. He wants to sell as many boats as he can in the remaining time he has and is prepared to reduce his margins to do so. The added benefit of doing this is that it might put off some of the new builders who won't want to compete at these prices.The only way that LPE stays in the game long term is if those new builders fade away and the ILCA and WS come crawling back and pleed with LPE to rejoin the fold, which would only happen on LPE's terms.

Word is that suppliers are very wary of LPE and are not extending them much credit, if at all.  We experienced this on sails, spars and other class legal parts for years when they were an approved builder.  How do they all of the sudden begin paying suppliers to build knock off parts?  

Support LPE as much as you want and enjoy it while you can. Their current actions are harming the long term future of the class but at least they won't be doing so for too much longer

THIS! THIS!! THIS!!!

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15 hours ago, JMP said:

I could have sworn that TLC had a US person on their list previously, doesn't look to have much of a WW focus currently https://www.thelaserclass.com/pages/advisory-board

 

The Sailing Inc is selling them, (or at least offering them) out of Ohio and Charleston.  I'm friends with the guy who runs the Charleston location.  We've had a conversation about it.  I just simply said, "Everyone has a right to sell whatever they want and make money, but please tell your buyers they can't sail these boats in ILCA D12 related events.  I don't want to be the person to convey that message to a customer of yours, but I will."

Sorry- but I'm not on board with diluting the ILCA class particularly when there's a short term, pissed off rogue builder behind it.  You wanna sail those things as club boats or sailing school boats or resort boats that's fine, but you can't line up with class approved boats using a knock off hull.  I'm sure some think my position is bad for grass roots sailing.  That's fine.  

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20 hours ago, Bill5 said:

When is their big move to Portugal?

Portugal_campus_4.jpg?v=1584644114

 

There's a facility there.  Only building 420's when I communicated with them last November when I was in Portugal.

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

  I am curious if anyone can name any  example of where a club welcomed and allowed LPE non plaqued club boats to race in its Laser fleet.  It would be great if they did but I don't think its happened - even in Europe.  Would love to be proven wrong. I also don't think its viable long term as you will see ILCA evolve their boat such that the LPE club Laser is not the same.

Can anyone name any  example of where a club stopped a sailor from racing with them because he or she had an  LPE boat without the WS/ILCA plaque thingie?

Clubs don't need to "welcome and allow" these boats. They just need to be the sort of organization that doesn't have rules nazis checking other people's boats and kicking kids out of their fleet just for the hell of it.

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5 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Can anyone name any  example of where a club stopped a sailor from racing with them because he or she had an  LPE boat without the WS/ILCA plaque thingie?

Clubs don't need to "welcome and allow" these boats. They just need to be the sort of organization that doesn't have rules nazis checking other people's boats and kicking kids out of their fleet just for the hell of it.

As an ILCA class secretary I don't think it falls on clubs to police this.  It falls on ILCA class members.  Our District is actively spreading the message, "If you show up to a class event with a boat that does not have a plaque you will not be allowed to start in the class start."

I feel this is a necessary position for the good of ILCA and it's future.  Otherwise we're potentially allowing our class to dissolve and at the very least suffer potentially a significant loss of operating income.

 

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17 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

As an ILCA class secretary I don't think it falls on clubs to police this.  It falls on ILCA class members.  Our District is actively spreading the message, "If you show up to a class event with a boat that does not have a plaque you will not be allowed to start in the class start."

I feel this is a necessary position for the good of ILCA and it's future.  Otherwise we're potentially allowing our class to dissolve and at the very least suffer potentially a significant loss of operating income.

 

Checkmate Tiller.

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22 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

As an ILCA class secretary I don't think it falls on clubs to police this.  It falls on ILCA class members.  Our District is actively spreading the message, "If you show up to a class event with a boat that does not have a plaque you will not be allowed to start in the class start."

I feel this is a necessary position for the good of ILCA and it's future.  Otherwise we're potentially allowing our class to dissolve and at the very least suffer potentially a significant loss of operating income.

 

Totally understand @RobbieB. I get it. If your first loyalty is to ILCA then it's logical to want to maximize ILCA's "operating income" by forcing everyone to buy boats that are generating all those fees (hidden and otherwise) for ILCA. Good luck!

I must admit I had different priorities when I was a Laser Class District Secretay . But we live in different times now.

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56 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Totally understand @RobbieB. I get it. If your first loyalty is to ILCA then it's logical to want to maximize ILCA's "operating income" by forcing everyone to buy boats that are generating all those fees (hidden and otherwise) for ILCA. Good luck!

I must admit I had different priorities when I was a Laser Class District Secretay . But we live in different times now.

I understand both sides of this coin.  I polled my district members on this before advertising our position.  The feedback from D12 members was 100% no "poser" boats allowed in our sanctioned events.

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10 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I understand both sides of this coin.  I polled my district members on this before advertising our position.  The feedback from D12 members was 100% no "poser" boats allowed in our sanctioned events.

What is your policy on non class legal sails etc for non sanctioned class events such as weeknight racing. Do you check class membership at events?

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Reading through some of this shit I think that sailors are their own worst enemies when it comes to promoting and growing the game. Fact, the laser or whatever you want to call it is an outdated pice of crap, they are not built the same, the spars have different bend characteristics, the sails are different shapes, some hulls last forever, some are lemons. Why any club or group of sailors would want to chase away someone who arrives at their club and wants  to play a game with a very similar piece of equipment makes absolutely no sense to me. If you are trying to qualifier for a worlds or are doing an Olympic campaign that is obviously a different situation, as by then you have measured 20 hulls, weighed 100 spars and bought 10 sails so you can find the fastest one for important events. 
Am I completely wrong here?

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

What is your policy on non class legal sails etc for non sanctioned class events such as weeknight racing. Do you check class membership at events?

Being perfectly honest we're a little hypocritical on this.  For the past few years we were struggling as a district.  The cost and availability of parts were mentioned as issues/barriers to entry for some, (both Jr and Sr sailors). We relaxed the class approved sails and some other parts requirements for our district series races.  However, for our GP event you must have all class approved gear.  Currently, we are continuing forward with that.  The exception being the NEW LP "Lasers".  I feel this is a little easier to justify as there's a decent enough used boat market with pretty nice, class approved hulls available.  I've seen some knock off deck cleat upgrades for the vang/Cunningham system, but that's been it.  No knock off spars or blades.

On the sails I've seen several people start with an intensity or other.  If they like the boat and D12 they either transition to a class legal sail later in the season or at least by their second season, (particularly those who get bitten by the travel bug).  I seriously doubt someone would buy and new non-class approved hull and just swap it out for a legal one if they liked it.

Class membership is NOT required to sail in our district level events.  However, if you want to be scored in our annual district championship series then you must be able to prove class membership when the EOY series awards are passed out, (which is always our last district event of the year).  Before the final event I print out our District class member list and if someone is in the hunt, but not a class member I'll shoot them and e-mail letting them know they need to join the class to get scored for the series.

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Otherwise we're potentially allowing our class to dissolve and at the very least suffer potentially a significant loss of operating income.

 

Disagree the decision obviously but I am curious this statement.  How does allowing a club boat from LPE result in a "significant loss of operating revenue?"

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23 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

What happened with West Coast Sailing's pending announcement about something back around when TLC launched? Did I miss it?

@WestCoast

Dex, slightly PC answer here, but, that's how it is right now.

 

We've continued to sell new 2020 Lasers (with plaques) this year. We just sold our last new Laser last week.
We have ordered their remaining fleet of 2020 Lasers (with plaques) that were in Florida for charters. We expect those to arrive at the end of June.
That should carry us through the next 6-7 weeks.

We've continued to supply class legal Laser parts for our customers, as that's what we've always done.
I think we're low on radial sails, but, we've had decent supply of Laser parts up till a few weeks ago.


--
That said, the future is coming, and even if we disagree with what has gone on, there isn't much we can do to stop the train.
We're a cog in the wheel at some level, but, our job is to support sailors and keep them on the water. It's all we can do.
 

We're communicating with a few ILCA builders as they tool up, but the Club Laser appears to be quite popular already, and there is something to be said for keeping our sport affordable.

Whether a local club or district would turn away someone with a Laser from racing with ILCAs... well, if they do, I guess I understand, but that will also make me pretty sad.
But, maybe it's all part of where we are today after 10 years of fighting about this.

I've seen plenty of non-class legal stuff used all the way up to PCC level events, so, I'm not sure why the line would be drawn on Laser vs. ILCA... but that's not for me to decide :)
 

I promise you, we are talking to people every day on this.
I imagine you'll see our public decision next month (which is later than I expected, but, we've had better supply than I expected).

 

Personally, I'm a big fan of Ovington boats. I've toured their factory, they are honest, and support their sailors
We've sold their boats (29ers and one or two Musto Skiffs) over the years, and they know how to build a damn good dinghy.

 

We're currently selling a LOT of boats, more than in 2019.  So, a decision is coming...
It's not a day I expected to see when I started doing this in 2005, but, we are here.  I don't know what will happen, but, it will probably happen before July is out.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Disagree the decision obviously but I am curious this statement.  How does allowing a club boat from LPE result in a "significant loss of operating revenue?"

I'm sort of rolling my eyes because you know there are fees associated with nearly every ILCA class legal part that help fund the class.  Not to mention membership dues.  How can the ILCA class operate serving non-class members sailing non-class approved boats?  It like the J24 class allowing Moore 24's to come play in their OD events.  The Moore 24's would get to play for "free" while the J24 class would cover the cost of hosting them and funding awards, regatta support and other items.  That's unsustainable from a business model perspective.  It's like opening a restaurant and letting people eat for free.

True- I'm being hypocritical as previously stated due to things we are allowing on non-class approved sails, but in our experience allowing someone to "slide" on those types of items typically come back as investors in class approved items and membership.  At the end of the day they are already invested in the class with a class approved/plaqued hull.

 

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4 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Dex, slightly PC answer here, but, that's how it is right now.

 

We've continued to sell new 2020 Lasers (with plaques) this year. We just sold our last new Laser last week.
We have ordered their remaining fleet of 2020 Lasers (with plaques) that were in Florida for charters. We expect those to arrive at the end of June.
That should carry us through the next 6-7 weeks.

We've continued to supply class legal Laser parts for our customers, as that's what we've always done.
I think we're low on radial sails, but, we've had decent supply of Laser parts up till a few weeks ago.


--
That said, the future is coming, and even if we disagree with what has gone on, there isn't much we can do to stop the train.
We're a cog in the wheel at some level, but, our job is to support sailors and keep them on the water. It's all we can do.
 

We're communicating with a few ILCA builders as they tool up, but the Club Laser appears to be quite popular already, and there is something to be said for keeping our sport affordable.

Whether a local club or district would turn away someone with a Laser from racing with ILCAs... well, if they do, I guess I understand, but that will also make me pretty sad.
But, maybe it's all part of where we are today after 10 years of fighting about this.

I've seen plenty of non-class legal stuff used all the way up to PCC level events, so, I'm not sure why the line would be drawn on Laser vs. ILCA... but that's not for me to decide :)
 

I promise you, we are talking to people every day on this.
I imagine you'll see our public decision next month (which is later than I expected, but, we've had better supply than I expected).

 

Personally, I'm a big fan of Ovington boats. I've toured their factory, they are honest, and support their sailors
We've sold their boats (29ers and one or two Musto Skiffs) over the years, and they know how to build a damn good dinghy.

 

We're currently selling a LOT of boats, more than in 2019.  So, a decision is coming...
It's not a day I expected to see when I started doing this in 2005, but, we are here.  I don't know what will happen, but, it will probably happen before July is out.

Hmmm.  Sounds like you're going down the middle on this one.  Well, down the middle once an ILCA approved non-PSA option is available...

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31 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

 

True- I'm being hypocritical pragmatic  as previously stated due to things we are allowing on non-class approved sails, but in our experience allowing someone to "slide" on those types of items typically come back as investors in class approved items and membership.  At the end of the day they are already invested in the class with a class approved/plaqued hull.

 

FIFY

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49 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Dex, slightly PC answer here, but, that's how it is right now.

 

We've continued to sell new 2020 Lasers (with plaques) this year. We just sold our last new Laser last week.
We have ordered their remaining fleet of 2020 Lasers (with plaques) that were in Florida for charters. We expect those to arrive at the end of June.
That should carry us through the next 6-7 weeks.

We've continued to supply class legal Laser parts for our customers, as that's what we've always done.
I think we're low on radial sails, but, we've had decent supply of Laser parts up till a few weeks ago.


--
That said, the future is coming, and even if we disagree with what has gone on, there isn't much we can do to stop the train.
We're a cog in the wheel at some level, but, our job is to support sailors and keep them on the water. It's all we can do.
 

We're communicating with a few ILCA builders as they tool up, but the Club Laser appears to be quite popular already, and there is something to be said for keeping our sport affordable.

Whether a local club or district would turn away someone with a Laser from racing with ILCAs... well, if they do, I guess I understand, but that will also make me pretty sad.
But, maybe it's all part of where we are today after 10 years of fighting about this.

I've seen plenty of non-class legal stuff used all the way up to PCC level events, so, I'm not sure why the line would be drawn on Laser vs. ILCA... but that's not for me to decide :)
 

I promise you, we are talking to people every day on this.
I imagine you'll see our public decision next month (which is later than I expected, but, we've had better supply than I expected).

 

Personally, I'm a big fan of Ovington boats. I've toured their factory, they are honest, and support their sailors
We've sold their boats (29ers and one or two Musto Skiffs) over the years, and they know how to build a damn good dinghy.

 

We're currently selling a LOT of boats, more than in 2019.  So, a decision is coming...
It's not a day I expected to see when I started doing this in 2005, but, we are here.  I don't know what will happen, but, it will probably happen before July is out.

 

48 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'm sort of rolling my eyes because you know there are fees associated with nearly every ILCA class legal part that help fund the class.  Not to mention membership dues.  How can the ILCA class operate serving non-class members sailing non-class approved boats?  It like the J24 class allowing Moore 24's to come play in their OD events.  The Moore 24's would get to play for "free" while the J24 class would cover the cost of hosting them and funding awards, regatta support and other items.  That's unsustainable from a business model perspective.  It's like opening a restaurant and letting people eat for free.

True- I'm being hypocritical as previously stated due to things we are allowing on non-class approved sails, but in our experience allowing someone to "slide" on those types of items typically come back as investors in class approved items and membership.  At the end of the day they are already invested in the class with a class approved/plaqued hull.

 

I love this place. The difference between an organization that tries to get people sailing and racing... and one that tries to force their personal opinion on others, and make them do things they would not do without being forced... has never been more clear. 

Good luck West Coast Sailing. I really hope you come out of this all OK. 

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1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

Personally, I'm a big fan of Ovington boats. I've toured their factory, they are honest, and support their sailors
We've sold their boats (29ers and one or two Musto Skiffs) over the years, and they know how to build a damn good dinghy.

 

I’d love to see some Ovington Laser dealers in the states 

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13 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

I’d love to see some Ovington Laser dealers in the states 

Unfortunately, they aren’t paying for the rights to build Lasers

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12 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Unfortunately, they aren’t paying for the rights to build Lasers

I’m not sure I give a fuck anymore. I’d just like to sail a regatta without it being canceled because someone might catch a cold.. As long as they don’t call the boat BLM I’m good.

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I headed down to the Club on Saturday to go for a quick sail. 15-20 - a great day. It was the first weekend for Masters Training (about a dozen were out) which doesn't interest me much. I didn't - and don't generally - like to spend an afternoon sailing miniature W/L's with a coach blowing his whistle and doing whatever he does. So I did what I like - stretch out and sail upwind to the end of the (small) lake, then reach back and forth down to the other end and repeat (time permitting). I tack when I want, gybe when I want and work as hard as I want upwind - which I go at pretty hard. Sail in, and have a beer or two while de-rigging. I'll sail when the breeze is up,  race on Thursday nights and whatever club events happen to come along. As grass roots as they come! If things loosen up - I might head to an event at another club in the region. I do this all in the boat I bought used a couple years ago. I did buy a new sail and I am an ILCA member. Dues and fees are inconsequential. The amount I saved not buying a new boat (which wasn't even available at the time), would pay for all the ILCA and related  fees 10 times over. 

I might buy a new boat in a couple years, and the fees would not prevent me from doing so. I figure I'll gear up for a Masters Worlds as I hit the next age grouping. I would love to be the youngest guy in the fleet!  

Concerning knock offs, there would be no problem at the Club. Not sure about the district. 

As far as the fees put forward by PSA, nothing crushing there - the QR fees are new as was pointed out in this never ending story a while ago. As Wess pointed out, it doesn't seem to show the Kirby $100 fee. May that doesn't flow through ILCA, so it wasn't stated. If so and if it is a manufacturing cost, they don't need to say anything.

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9 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

I’m not sure I give a fuck anymore. I’d just like to sail a regatta without it being canceled because someone might catch a cold.. As long as they don’t call the boat BLM I’m good.

Dude - seriously??  Gotta part company with you there.  Why is everyone so angry.  Good grief its sailing. 

Still nothing intelligent to say @Firefly-DC?  Just knowing I can yank your chain makes this thread such a hoot I canntt drop.  And you still don't have a NA builder and never will. And you still have hidden fees which are higher than they ever were.  And you can downvote it all you want but you canntt stop me from saying it.  Truth is truth.   I consider your downvotes a badge of honor, LOL.

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

Dude - seriously??  Gotta part company with you there.  Why is everyone so angry.  Good grief its sailing. 

Still nothing intelligent to say @Firefly-DC?  Just knowing I can yank your chain makes this thread such a hoot I canntt drop.  And you still don't have a NA builder and never will. And you still have hidden fees which are higher than they ever were.  And you can downvote it all you want but you canntt stop me from saying it.  Truth is truth.   I consider your downvotes a badge of honor, LOL.

you annoy me just as much as I annoy you. 

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23 minutes ago, Wess said:

Dude - seriously??  Gotta part company with you there.  Why is everyone so angry.  Good grief its sailing. 

Hey Wess! I was typing with a smile on my face:)  But seriously, with Rome burning and Western civ committing suicide, the Laser/ILCA drama is growing old. 

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8 hours ago, RobbieB said:

As an ILCA class secretary I don't think it falls on clubs to police this.  It falls on ILCA class members.  Our District is actively spreading the message, "If you show up to a class event with a boat that does not have a plaque you will not be allowed to start in the class start."

I feel this is a necessary position for the good of ILCA and it's future.  Otherwise we're potentially allowing our class to dissolve and at the very least suffer potentially a significant loss of operating income.

 

Rob, are you prepared for the blowback on this?  At some point you're going to have to tell somebody "no", and that person isn't going to be very happy.

I agree with you in principle, and I can see being very strict on plaqued boats at a nationals-level event being run by the class.  However even district-level events are still mostly grassroots sailors.

I blame this fucked-up situation in unequal amounts on World Sailing, the ILCA, the builders, and even Bruce Kirby.  Farzad Rastegar obviously holds the lion's share of the blame.  I find grassroots sailors completely innocent, and if I had to draw a line somewhere it would probably be between district- and national-level.

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31 minutes ago, Wess said:

 And you still have hidden fees which are higher than they ever were. 

With all these hidden fees which are higher than they ever were, PSA's doing a pretty good job to absorb them as there has been no increase in price on the PSA boats in Australia 

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1 hour ago, Firefly-DC said:

you annoy me just as much as I annoy you. 

Annoy me? You don’t annoy me. Hell; you are at least 50% of the reason I come to this fishing hole. 

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57 minutes ago, JMP said:

With all these hidden fees which are higher than they ever were, PSA's doing a pretty good job to absorb them as there has been no increase in price on the PSA boats in Australia 

You do realize a significant portion of those fees go to PSA right?!? :blink:

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

You do realize a significant portion of those fees go to PSA right?!? :blink:

And?  Prices have not gone up at all here,  it's in fact cheaper to buy a PSA boat in the UK than it is to buy one in Australia so they're taking a hit there for sure compared to "local" sales

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Annoy me? You don’t annoy me. Hell; you are at least 50% of the reason I come to this fishing hole. 

Ah wessy, bless you're little heart.  if it didn't annoy you, why do you keep complaining about it?

 

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My only complaint is that you don't care enough about the Laser to offer any ideas of what is wrong or how to fix it.

BIG softball for you there Bill LOL.

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2 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

Hey Wess! I was typing with a smile on my face:)  But seriously, with Rome burning and Western civ committing suicide, the Laser/ILCA drama is growing old. 

Hey sorry if I over-reacted.  I will joke about Laser but Covid and racism I take seriously.  Honor code. Or as my Army friends remind me... honor concept.

 

Back to the Laser and its demise by 1000 paper cuts thanks to ILCA.

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Hey sorry if I over-reacted.  I will joke about Laser but Covid and racism I take seriously.  Honor code. Or as my Army friends remind me... honor concept.

 

Bullshit!! Who said anything racist? You take those marxist thugs seriously!? This doesn’t have a damn thing to do with racism. You’re smarter than that. Get off your fucking knees. 

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