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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Much anger and angst

OK so your answer to the question of is it good for sailors that the construction manual is not public and why is:

"As a competitor I don't care HOW they make them.  I care that they ALL fall within what is deemed as an acceptable build tolerance range.  I believe and trust the class leadership and newly hired technical build inspectors/consultants are much more qualified to know/manage that range than I am or will ever be.  YES- THE BUILDERS MANUAL IS FOR THE PAYING BUILDERS ONLY-NOT SAILORS AND I'M 100% FINE  WITH THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Seems kinda non-responsive to me but never mind.  Maybe take a breath and a Zanax.  To think I was trying to avoid a bruhaha with the peanut gallery LOL.

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31 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

What makes you think the manual isn’t public?? 

I think you mean this differently than I mean this but yes I agree it largely is after the fact and anyone that wants to know and is willing to cut up a recently built boat can know largely in real time.

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21 hours ago, tillerman said:

Now, can we get back to talking about important stuff like the price of vangs, fast Aussie boats, and whether Wild Thing was a hit in Canada.

Get with the times, man! It’s the Devoti’s that are fast now.  I hear sailors are Lamboley swing testing them, just like Finns.

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51 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Thanks....so in summation. I fully understand that you do not believe that it is necessary for the builders manual needs to be public for reasons outline above.

You have your answer @Wess

Wess seems to be keeping his position on the topic to himself...which is also fine...or he can outline if he thinks it should be public and why ? or just drop the topic (but where would be the fun in that?)

Would that it were so simple...

Wess is that 8th grade Social Studies teacher that asks questions and makes statements just to get the class thinking. That's the only logical reason for many of his posts. I also think he has bet some rum with someone that that he can drag this out over 100 pages. And he is nearly there!!

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4 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Get with the times, man! It’s the Devoti’s that are fast now.  I hear sailors are Lamboley swing testing them, just like Finns.

I am sure I read somewhere recently that Ovingtons are "built to win." 

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9 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Guys posted a 'Quick Look' at the first Ovington ILCA shakedown on the water in the US:

 

 

 "Built to Win" is the wrong tag line for the Ovington Laser  - not what we want at all- perhaps it should emphasize "Built to Last".....

Interesting to see whether Devoti competes with Ovingtons by building a cheaper boat or a faster boat.   Because the business model of an identical boat at a higher price has never got a lot of traction. :).   Preferably they price close to each other with identical boats but distinguish their offering with service.

Currently the pricing is almost identical . Devoti is EU 6,575 inc carbon top section = c. $7,900  Ovington is UKP 5169 = c. 7,990. Exchange rates explain away the difference.  So depends which yo think is nicer looking piece of kit or more likely what your local deal;er carries.

 

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3 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 "Built to Win" is the wrong tag line for the Ovington Laser  - not what we want at all- perhaps it should emphasize "Built to Last".....

Interesting to see whether Devoti competes with Ovingtons by building a cheaper boat or a faster boat.   Because the business model of an identical boat at a higher price has never got a lot of traction. :).   Preferably they price close to each other with identical boats but distinguish their offering with service.

Currently the pricing is almost identical . Devoti is EU 6,575 inc carbon top section = c. $7,900  Ovington is UKP 5169 = c. 7,990. Exchange rates explain away the difference.  So depends which yo think is nicer looking piece of kit or more likely what your local deal;er carries.

 

It's like all the different COVID vaccines. The right one for you is the one you can get.

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Not even warm...

Library of  Congress...

Google is your friend 

 

 

Sorry if I am misunderstanding you Gouv but that is not a current version so not particularly helpful to today’s sailors, right? Or are you saying something different??

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48 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 "Built to Win" is the wrong tag line for the Ovington Laser  - not what we want at all- perhaps it should emphasize "Built to Last".....

Interesting to see whether Devoti competes with Ovingtons by building a cheaper boat or a faster boat.   Because the business model of an identical boat at a higher price has never got a lot of traction. :).   Preferably they price close to each other with identical boats but distinguish their offering with service.

Currently the pricing is almost identical . Devoti is EU 6,575 inc carbon top section = c. $7,900  Ovington is UKP 5169 = c. 7,990. Exchange rates explain away the difference.  So depends which yo think is nicer looking piece of kit or more likely what your local deal;er carries.

 

This side of the pond it looks like the Zim is USD 8000; PSA 8500; Ovi 8900.

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Sorry if I am misunderstanding you Gouv but that is not a current version so not particularly helpful to today’s sailors, right? Or are you saying something different??

By implication, why is the current version particularly helpful to today's sailors ?  

Do you think the current version should be publicly available ?

Or are you saying something different??

(;)  Oooh are we going to get an answer?)

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

By implication, why is the current version particularly helpful to today's sailors ?  

Do you think the current version should be publicly available ?

Or are you saying something different??

(;)  Oooh are we going to get an answer?)

Not tonight.  Byrds Nest 3 shelter is 3 miles and 1500 vertical feet away, its cold, dark as a witch's ****, the trail is icy and its snowing.  And signal is about to go away.  Its almost as much fun as LASER sailing (not that ILCA sh*t).  And it will be better once we get there and get a fire started.  God I love life!!  Cheers.

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On 2/25/2021 at 3:19 AM, Gouvernail said:

Has  anyone bothered to check whether the following is true? 

 

The construction manual is a public document easily found in the  Library of Congress... 

I thought that was the document that Kirby kept control of hence the court cases, if you didnt legally have that you couldnt legally build a Laser?

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12 hours ago, Bill5 said:

What the....? Where are the teak grab rails?

That is the only boat with any hardware in the stack including which looks like misplaced traveler fairleads . Looks like someone screwed the pieces on for a photo op. 

 

WechatIMG28-768x1024.jpeg

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Tough crowd. One bad photo and your boats suck. The first photo in the link is a bit more flattering...

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22 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Tough crowd. One bad photo and your boats suck. The first photo in the link is a bit more flattering...

 Well  at this point it is a non issue as it has no plaque so it is not an approved ILCA boat.  and no super duper super secret fees paid yet 

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As a long-term :D member of The (in)famous Laser Class (TLC), I received an update.

What was most interesting perhaps is that LP claimed to have sold 585 Lasers with their own plaque. I think that this is considerably less than 'back in the day', before ILCA dropped LP as a builder. I speculate that most of these Lasers have stayed within Europe.

and finally, we are a happy class!
Its official - last year, 585 new One-Design Lasers were distributed with the new Laser Class plaque - a real testament to the continuing LP Laser build quality. This year the Laser Class technical committee will be inspecting and monitoring the production of the Laser to ensure you continue to receive a first-class sailing experience.
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16 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

As a long-term :D member of The (in)famous Laser Class (TLC), I received an update.

What was most interesting perhaps is that LP claimed to have sold 585 Lasers with their own plaque. I think that this is considerably less than 'back in the day', before ILCA dropped LP as a builder. I speculate that most of these Lasers have stayed within Europe.

and finally, we are a happy class!
Its official - last year, 585 new One-Design Lasers were distributed with the new Laser Class plaque - a real testament to the continuing LP Laser build quality. This year the Laser Class technical committee will be inspecting and monitoring the production of the Laser to ensure you continue to receive a first-class sailing experience.

Go backpacking for a weekend and they claim to sell 585 LPE Lasers?!  Where on earth did you find that one?  It never ends LOL.  At least we have good music!!

 

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The Sailing Inc in Ohio posted a pic on their FB page of a guy standing beside his new LP "Laser" with a note he was looking forward to the upcoming regatta season and circuit.  Wonder if they told him the "story" behind his purchase or if he'll get educated when he shows up at an ILCA event and a plaque nazi gets ahold of him.....Or, is there a "pop up" fleet of LP lasers in the GL area now?

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33 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

The Sailing Inc in Ohio posted a pic on their FB page of a guy standing beside his new LP "Laser" with a note he was looking forward to the upcoming regatta season and circuit.  Wonder if they told him the "story" behind his purchase or if he'll get educated when he shows up at an ILCA event and a plaque nazi gets ahold of him.....Or, is there a "pop up" fleet of LP lasers in the GL area now?

OMG, OMG, OMG, LOL!

Save $5000 and still get to sail/race with your friends!!!  This is horrible.  He didn't help fund the elite.  And if he buys generic sails and parts then ILCA, PSA, and WS don't get to pick his pocket and steal his money.  OMG!!  He found the secret to escape the fees funding the elite and ILCA class leadership.  Somebody send the cops!!

Come on, what's the big deal.  Some poor guy wanted to save himself $5000 and sail in club events where plaque nazis generally - thankfully - don't roam and aren't welcome.  Generic sails and generic parts have long been a thing at the club level. Generic boats are no different. 

This might be a shocker to some but doesn't the vast majority of Laser sailing happen at NON-ILCA events...

Asking for a friend...

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30 minutes ago, Wess said:

OMG, OMG, OMG, LOL!

Save $5000 and still get to sail/race with your friends!!!  This is horrible.  He didn't help fund the elite.  And if he buys generic sails and parts then ILCA, PSA, and WS don't get to pick his pocket and steal his money.  OMG!!  He found the secret to escape the fees funding the elite and ILCA class leadership.  Somebody send the cops!!

Come on, what's the big deal.  Some poor guy wanted to save himself $5000 and sail in club events where plaque nazis generally - thankfully - don't roam and aren't welcome.  Generic sails and generic parts have long been a thing at the club level. Generic boats are no different. 

This might be a shocker to some but doesn't the vast majority of Laser sailing happen at NON-ILCA events...

Asking for a friend...

I'm ok with it as long as buyers are informed.

I'm also honestly interested to see if "fleets" are popping up in the US.

 

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47 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

The Sailing Inc in Ohio posted a pic on their FB page of a guy standing beside his new LP "Laser" with a note he was looking forward to the upcoming regatta season and circuit.  Wonder if they told him the "story" behind his purchase or if he'll get educated when he shows up at an ILCA event and a plaque nazi gets ahold of him.....Or, is there a "pop up" fleet of LP lasers in the GL area now?

 

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3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

#9985

Check again.  You miscounted my friend.  ;)

The old tricks still work and either of us could stop this thread from ever getting to 10,000 LOL.

PS - Any progress on the Japanese angle? 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Come on, what's the big deal.  Some poor guy wanted to save himself $5000 and sail in club events where plaque nazis generally - thankfully - don't roam and aren't welcome.  Generic sails and generic parts have long been a thing at the club level. Generic boats are no different. 

This might be a shocker to some but doesn't the vast majority of Laser sailing happen at NON-ILCA events...

Asking for a friend...

I certainly don’t have a problem with buying knock-off ILCA’s (;)) and generic parts for club racing and to save a few bucks. But your Wess math is interesting. 
7500 - 6000 = 5000

Nice music pick. Had the Brain Salad Surgery 8 track!


 

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On 2/26/2021 at 9:03 PM, Wess said:

Not tonight.  Byrds Nest 3 shelter is 3 miles and 1500 vertical feet away, its cold, dark as a witch's ****, the trail is icy and its snowing.  And signal is about to go away.  Its almost as much fun as LASER sailing (not that ILCA sh*t).  And it will be better once we get there and get a fire started.  God I love life!!  Cheers.

but soon right?

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13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

but soon right?

Should lock the thread with that line. Very well done. Got a belly laugh.

But yes.... soon.

And by ILCA standards that means I have 2 years!!

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25 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

#9989

You are really having trouble counting LOL. 

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32 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

#9989

huh??? How can you pre-quote?? 

Nope its still not 9989; sorry.  And it’s like knowing the world would be better without WS and ILCA. Generic Lasers for all! 

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17 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

What?? 

It was according to my display.

This is #9901. We're going backwards!

image.thumb.png.70c6013dc93be71c3c8a9a668df6a13d.png

 

The numbers change!

(See, numbers are fun!)

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

What?? 

I was saying that this thread - if nothing else - proves that lemmings cann'tt count.  Not days (ie "soon"), not boat prices (i.e ILCA are wayyyy more expensive than Lasers), and not posts. 

 

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

500 entries of quality packed into 10,000 posts

Quality is a term like speed.  .0000000001mph is a speed. 

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And now, an hour later, it is 10 posts that have been lost. 

image.thumb.png.7eb00e48ea57a7e57c6494fabd56b442.png

At this rate of shrinkage, there will be none left by the end of the year! And all of the hard work by the posters here will be lost.

We need to have a proper investigation to get to the bottom of this!

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19 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

And now, an hour later, it is 10 posts that have been lost. 

image.thumb.png.7eb00e48ea57a7e57c6494fabd56b442.png

At this rate of shrinkage, there will be none left by the end of the year! And all of the hard work by the posters here will be lost.

We need to have a proper investigation to get to the bottom of this!

Haters are deleting 

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3 hours ago, torrid said:

No one post after #9999.  Let Gouv take the honors.

I don't think he wants that honor.  While I delete a few to have fun and throw off his counting earlier it appears he has picked up the trick and is now the one deleting.  If only ILCA-ers had learned they could delete all their misinformation!!

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If we each deleted posts which are a repetition of what we already stated, we wouldn’t hit 10Gs for a few years.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

If we each deleted posts which are a repetition of what we already stated, we wouldn’t hit 10Gs for a few years.

As well as that, if we each deleted posts which are a repeat of what we already...

... never mind.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

I don't think he wants that honor.  While I delete a few to have fun and throw off his counting earlier it appears he has picked up the trick and is now the one deleting.  If only ILCA-ers had learned they could delete all their misinformation!!

Why did this post go beyond the third word? 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Why did this post go beyond the third word? 

You wine a lot for a dude from Texas! 

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22 hours ago, Bill5 said:

500 entries of quality packed into 10,000 posts

I thought you had one of the good ones.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

I thought you had one of the good ones.

Thanks!

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11 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What do you think is the optimal number of builders for a class like ILCA?

Through a North American lens, it sure looks like a lot. But I am sure the builders that signed up are confident this is a sustainable deal. 

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27 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Through a North American lens, it sure looks like a lot. But I am sure the builders that signed up are confident this is a sustainable deal. 

How many of the current builders (including new ones recently approved) do you think will still be building ILCAs two years from now?

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

How many of the current builders (including new ones recently approved) do you think will still be building ILCAs two years from now?

I would suspect all of them. 

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52 minutes ago, tillerman said:

How many of the current builders (including new ones recently approved) do you think will still be building ILCAs two years from now?

Do you mean actively building and selling more than say 20 boats a year?  Or do you mean still a "approved builder" that does the occasional one-off?

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