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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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12 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Wait. There's a middle ground between grass roots and elite? What do we call them?  Are they allowed to wear Musto and Gill gear? Asking for a friend.

Musto and Gill are OK. Mixed and matching gear is preferable. I usually call those between grass roots and elite by their first name. But as a genre, they would be known as “Somewhere between grass roots and elite”. It’s all in the grass roots constitution.

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32 minutes ago, tillerman said:

7-8 regattas spread out during the sailing season in different parts of the geography.

Looks great... and very similar to what we have planned in MA, RI, CT, VT and NY for the class I am not allowed to mention here. I expect some of our local sailors will also be going to the NAs on the Gulf Coast and the Worlds in Italy.

We also try to mix it up between the inland and coastal venues as well as award events to clubs who's fleet travels to support other events.  Sadly, I'm about the only one from my home club to travel so I haven't put my club on our schedule for a few years now. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I challenge you to find a decently competitive and physical OD single handed dingy, (with a decent class following and Sunfish is NOT a physical boat) that costs less NEW than a "standard" ILCA.  

Robbie - The Rocket (the boat) Bill talked of buying costs about half the price of an ILCA.  Half!  Hell my UFO costed less than an ILCA.  Are you trying to imply that that ~100% mark-up compared to the Rocket for example is to cover the cost of running the ILCA OD class??

I don't see how the cost of the boat should have anything to do with if its sailed as an active OD class or not. 

Run this little thought experiment.  If we all left the ILCA class and boat behind and started sailing Rockets as an OD class, do you think the cost of a Rocket should double?

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23 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Musto and Gill are OK. Mixed and matching gear is preferable. I usually call those between grass roots and elite by their first name. But as a genre, they would be known as “Somewhere between grass roots and elite”. It’s all in the grass roots constitution.

I'm a full on Zhiker.  Their relatively new 50% off EOY sale makes the gear very affordable and it lasts a long time, (except for the lightweight hybrid pants). 

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Robbie - The Rocket Bill talked of buying costs about half the price of an ILCA.  Half!  Hell my UFO costed less than an ILCA.  Are you trying to imply that that ~100% mark-up compared to the Rocket for example is to cover the cost of running an OD class??

C'mon now.  Read my post and reply appropriately.  No more of your vegas magic trick diversions....

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14 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

C'mon now.  Read my post and reply appropriately.  No more of your vegas magic trick diversions....

Re-read mine.  That is no diversion.  Honestly I feel that is what you are doing.  We are talking the cost (absurdly high for an ILCA compared to the Rocket) of the boat.  That one is sailed in an OD class should not have any significant impact on the cost of the boat surely.  I think its very fair to ask and its you who is evading when I ask... again...

If we all stopped sailing uber expensive ILCAs and instead started racing half priced Rockets in an OD class, should the price of a Rocket double?

Remember the 99-er or 99% - not recalling which it was called... but the generic Laser?  Sailing it on the water or looking at it (ignoring labels), or measuring (weights, dimensions, etc...) you could not tell it wasn't an official Laser or ILCA but yet it was half the price.

The class could have worked to make things more affordable, more accessible, and less fragile and instead went the other direction.  And they could have done that within the Olympic construct.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Looks great... and very similar to what we have planned in MA, RI, CT, VT and NY for the class I am not allowed to mention here.

Who say that you can't mention Aero here and why not?  Its by looking at other classes and other boats - its by not just looking inward at the few (members) that they have and instead at the many (who sail Lasers but don't join ILCA any more) they don't - that best practices can be found and improvements made.

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Wait. There's a middle ground between grass roots and elite? What do we call them?  Are they allowed to wear Musto and Gill gear? Asking for a friend.

You can call them the REI crowd.  The wife and I are often sporting our hiking backpacking gear on the big boat.  Was really surprised that our hiking gear is often same material (gortex for example), as or more (that really surprised me) functional, and half the the price of buying the sailing or nautical equivalent.  Its silly to have two pairs (one for hiking and one for sailing) and we used to wear our sailing gear when hiking.  Now we more often are wearing hiking gear  when sailing on the big boat at least.  Its like the Rocket vs the ILCA.   

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

You can call them the REI crowd.  The wife and I are often sporting our hiking backpacking gear on the big boat.  Was really surprised that our hiking gear is often same material (gortex for example), as or more (that really surprised me) functional, and half the the price of buying the sailing or nautical equivalent.  Its silly to have two pairs (one for hiking and one for sailing) and we used to wear our sailing gear when hiking.  Now we more often are wearing hiking gear  when sailing on the big boat at least.  Its like the Rocket vs the ILCA.   

What do you call the crowd who uses gardening gloves as sailing gloves?

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

Who say that you can't mention Aero here and why not?  Its by looking at other classes and other boats - its by not just looking inward at the few (members) that they have and instead at the many (who sail Lasers but don't join ILCA any more) they don't - that best practices can be found and improvements made.

There are a few people on this thread who have  accused me of aggressively promoting the RS Aero here, implying that such speech is somehow not allowed here. So I am now trying to restrain my enthusiasm for the Aero from polluting these waters too much.

But I hope most people here aren't offended by occasional comparisons between ILCAs, Laser, Rockets, UFOs, Sunfish and Aeros etc. As you say, we can all learn by looking at other classes and seeing the differences... both positive and negative.

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What do you call the crowd who uses gardening gloves as sailing gloves?

Smart.  The same as using lobster gloves and duct tape during those really cold frostbiting days LOL.

16 minutes ago, tillerman said:

There are a few people on this thread who have  accused me of aggressively promoting the RS Aero here, implying that such speech is somehow not allowed here. So I am now trying to restrain my enthusiasm for the Aero from polluting these waters too much.

But I hope most people here aren't offended by occasional comparisons between ILCAs, Laser, Rockets, UFOs, Sunfish and Aeros etc. As you say, we can all learn by looking at other classes and seeing the differences... both positive and negative.

Ignore the snowflakes.  I started the thread and certainly don't mind.  Different perspectives are always good.  Nobody learns anything in an echo chamber.  If there is one thing ILCA proves its that. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

There are a few people on this thread who have  accused me of aggressively promoting the RS Aero here, implying that such speech is somehow not allowed here. So I am now trying to restrain my enthusiasm for the Aero from polluting these waters too much.

But I hope most people here aren't offended by occasional comparisons between ILCAs, Laser, Rockets, UFOs, Sunfish and Aeros etc. As you say, we can all learn by looking at other classes and seeing the differences... both positive and negative.

I don't understand that.   I think anything that gets more people out sailing is good.  If there were a fleet of *s *ero* near me, I would probably buy one.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

What do you call the crowd who uses gardening gloves as sailing gloves?

Bi-Gearcial?  I bet Wess would find it crazy that I'm one of the "grass Roots" garden glove sailors...

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

There are a few people on this thread who have  accused me of aggressively promoting the RS Aero here, implying that such speech is somehow not allowed here. So I am now trying to restrain my enthusiasm for the Aero from polluting these waters too much.

But I hope most people here aren't offended by occasional comparisons between ILCAs, Laser, Rockets, UFOs, Sunfish and Aeros etc. As you say, we can all learn by looking at other classes and seeing the differences... both positive and negative.

I'm not one of those.  While this is not an Aero thread it's not a "No Aero Zone" either.  I opened the door for Wess to make some boat comparisons.  Thought for sure he would bring up the Aero, (even though it does cost more it's still a good comparison in my view).  However, he continues to dodge the issue.

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Bi-Gearcial?  I bet Wess would find it crazy that I'm one of the "grass Roots" garden glove sailors...

I don’t find anyone (other than an incompetent fool who is not a newbie and should know better) who sails anything in any way crazy.  Part of sailing or backpacking is self reliance and a respect for nature and I value that over anything.  Much as I am opposed to your plaque nazi tactics you know you have a sincere and standing invite.

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'm not one of those.  While this is not an Aero thread it's not a "No Aero Zone" either.  I opened the door for Wess to make some boat comparisons.  Thought for sure he would bring up the Aero, (even though it does cost more it's still a good comparison in my view).  However, he continues to dodge the issue.

I didn’t duck or dodge it at all. I am flat out saying BS to your question. The price of the boat had nothing to do with it being OD or not. You ducked and dodged my answer and question as to if the price of the very fine and affordable Rocket boat should double if all the lemmings dropped the expensive ILCA and decided to OD race half priced  rockets instead. 
 

Ball in your court Mr. Plaque Nazi Sir.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

 

How do you go from this, (my original question):

"I challenge you to find a decently competitive and physical OD single handed dingy, (with a decent class following and Sunfish is NOT a physical boat) that costs less NEW than a "standard" ILCA."

To this:

2 hours ago, Wess said:

Re-read mine.  That is no diversion.  Honestly I feel that is what you are doing.  We are talking the cost (absurdly high for an ILCA compared to the Rocket) of the boat.  That one is sailed in an OD class should not have any significant impact on the cost of the boat surely.  I think its very fair to ask and its you who is evading when I ask... again...

If we all stopped sailing uber expensive ILCAs and instead started racing half priced Rockets in an OD class, should the price of a Rocket double?

Remember the 99-er or 99% - not recalling which it was called... but the generic Laser?  Sailing it on the water or looking at it (ignoring labels), or measuring (weights, dimensions, etc...) you could not tell it wasn't an official Laser or ILCA but yet it was half the price.

The class could have worked to make things more affordable, more accessible, and less fragile and instead went the other direction.  And they could have done that within the Olympic construct.

Do you think the Rocket is a comparison?  It's a jazzed up sunfish.  Again, read my question.  You have completely diverted from the question because you have no answer.

I really thought you'd at least make a play at the Aero, but then there's that damn money thing again.... Doh!

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'm not one of those.  While this is not an Aero thread it's not a "No Aero Zone" either.  I opened the door for Wess to make some boat comparisons.  Thought for sure he would bring up the Aero, (even though it does cost more it's still a good comparison in my view).  However, he continues to dodge the issue.

Wetas went into production in 2006 in China, where it is possible to build the boats in fiberglass with carbon parts at a retail price of $10,995.Aug 2, 2017
 
 
 
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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

I didn’t duck or dodge it at all. I am flat out saying BS to your question. The price of the boat had nothing to do with it being OD or not. You ducked and dodged my answer and question as to if the price of the very fine and affordable Rocket boat should double if all the lemmings dropped the expensive ILCA and decided to OD race half priced  rockets instead. 
 

Ball in your court Mr. Plaque Nazi Sir.

Cant' handle the low tech of the "rocket".  I was lost at the lanteen rig.

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My answer was and is the Rocket Robbie. And stop shitting on the Sunfish. Its a better boat in many way than the ILCA. Just because you can only see one color doesn’t mean everyone does.

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don’t find anyone (other than an incompetent fool who is not a newbie and should know better) who sails anything in any way crazy.  Part of sailing or backpacking is self reliance and a respect for nature and I value that over anything.  Much as I am opposed to your plaque nazi tactics you know you have a sincere and standing invite.

This weekends regatta will be full camp mode for me. Loading up the Suby tonight.  Looking forward to AM coffee next to the camp fire Saturday.

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For gosh sakes @RobbieBmy UFO was $3000 less than an ILCA. And go sail it before you tell me that sucks too.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

My answer was and is the Rocket Robbie. And stop shitting on the Sunfish. Its a better boat in many way than the ILCA. Just because you can only see one color doesn’t mean everyone does.

Not "shitting" on it.  A lot of cool stuff came from the class.  Two of my mentors are in the book "Sail it flat".  It's an honest statement that it's not as physical or "techy" as the Laser, (even if the Laser "techy" has been forced it's still that way.)

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

For gosh sakes @RobbieBmy UFO was $3000 less than an ILCA. And go sail it before you tell me that sucks too.

I've actually been complimentary of the UFO, but foilers cater to the "fringe" area of our sport and puts it in even a less accessible category when you evaluate the question of "how do we get more people sailing."  The Rocket however, does present a valid option for proliferation of the sport, but not necessarily competing, (which honestly is a fringe area of what we do as well.)

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

For gosh sakes @RobbieBmy UFO was $3000 less than an ILCA. And go sail it before you tell me that sucks too.

That's a value for sure.  It costs $6k just to get the basterdized laser foil set up.

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@RobbieB - the Rocket and UFO are on both sides of the ILCA in terms of physicality and tech. My UFO (brand new) was $3000 less than the now second new ILCA I am about to buy. The Rocket is about half the price of the ILCA. 
 

So I ask you yet again... should the Rocket and UFO double in price if lemmings started sailing those? Or just if current ILCA leadership gets involved and destroys another good thing?  :P

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On 3/4/2021 at 4:31 PM, Wess said:

My answer was and is the Rocket Robbie. And stop shitting on the Sunfish. Its a better boat in many way than the ILCA. Just because you can only see one color doesn’t mean everyone does.

Err you do know boats like the sunfish/ rocket are sh@t on by my most of the world . Only really in American is it a proper racing class  . To the rest of the world it’s a boat you might sail at a holiday centre if every other boat is already taken. Lol

The only use anyone could have for one in Europe is as a garden ornament to put plants in and its even sh@t at that because the cockpit is too small :D

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

Err you do know boats like the sunfish/ rocket are sh@t on by my most of the world . Only really in American is it a proper racing class  . To the rest of the world it’s a boat you might sail at a holiday centre if every other boat is already taken. Lol

The only use anyone could have for one in Europe is as a garden ornament to put plants in and its even sh@t at that because the cockpit is too small :D

You'd be surprised at the keen racing you can find in the class.  People have sailed them for decades and know every little trick and nuance.  A wise old Laser master once told me this about the Sunfish.  It's a simple boat to sail, but a hard boat to sail well.

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

Err you do know boats like the sunfish/ rocket are sh@t on by my most of the world . Only really in American is it a proper racing class  . To the rest of the world it’s a boat you might sail at a holiday centre if every other boat is already taken. Lol

The only use anyone could have for one in Europe is as a garden ornament to put plants in and its even sh@t at that because the cockpit is too small :D

To each his or her own. I have no problem with any of them.   But if you are going to hold the ILCA up as the standard I gotta laugh.  Standard for what?  Moth faster and more high tech.  A cat even more so and physical as hell.  Finn; tougher yet.  The only high bar the ILCA sets is dramatically overpriced old design, materials, and mfg.  But I am outta here.  Its back packing time.  Cheers!  Tiller is in charge till Monday.

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2 hours ago, torrid said:

You'd be surprised at the keen racing you can find in the class.  People have sailed them for decades and know every little trick and nuance.  A wise old Laser master once told me this about the Sunfish.  It's a simple boat to sail, but a hard boat to sail well.

And let us not forget that the man who won the first three Laser North American Championships and who literally wrote the book on Laser sailing, the late Dick Tillman - member of ILCA Hall of Fame - was also an avid Sunfish sailor.

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On 3/5/2021 at 2:57 AM, VWAP said:
Wetas went into production in 2006 in China, where it is possible to build the boats in fiberglass with carbon parts at a retail price of $10,995.Aug 2, 2017
 
 
 

I think you'll find they're built in Batam Island which is right between Indonesia and Singapore by Xtreme yachting products  if memory serves.

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On 3/5/2021 at 2:18 AM, Bill5 said:

It’s all in the grass roots constitution.

My constitution was upset by eating grass roots.

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

My constitution was upset by eating grass roots.

I saw a few Lasers sailing today and tried to get a shot of them with some grass roots, but the owner of the lawn that I dug up to expose the roots wasn't happy about it and he banned me from his property. I think he's probably an ILCA member. However, I will persist.

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On 3/5/2021 at 3:31 AM, tillerman said:

There are a few people on this thread who have  accused me of aggressively promoting the RS Aero here, implying that such speech is somehow not allowed here. So I am now trying to restrain my enthusiasm for the Aero from polluting these waters too much.

I'm unaware of anyone accusing you of aggressively promoting the RS Aero here. The implication you derived appears to be yours alone.

On the other hand, I decided to respond in kind with your posts which appear to be sowing discord into other threads - and make a post on the RS thread which said so. I reached the conclusion that you were sowing discord on Laser / ILCA threads by comparing your responses with those you post on the RS thread - which anyone can see for themselves. While I'm so far pleased to see a shift in your tone -  I can't compel you (or for that matter Wess) to do anything!

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5 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Nonsense. And degrading nonsense to suggest they shouldn’t want to buy new. 

Chill. A take on real men don’t eat quiche. (And I wasn’t serious about the Zhik gear either.)

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24 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Chill. A take on real men don’t eat quiche. (And I wasn’t serious about the Zhik gear either.)

OMG. The world order is collapsing. A new Laser isn't legal any more. And now the Canadian is using irony.

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

OMG. The world order is collapsing. A new Laser isn't legal any more. And now the Canadian is using irony.

Yup. And I trust you saw that in my “new class association” concept...

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One must not always post with a pen in one hand and a sabre in the other (not literally). 

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On 3/4/2021 at 9:40 AM, Wess said:

@RobbieB - the Rocket and UFO are on both sides of the ILCA in terms of physicality and tech. My UFO (brand new) was $3000 less than the now second new ILCA I am about to buy. The Rocket is about half the price of the ILCA. 
 

So I ask you yet again... should the Rocket and UFO double in price if lemmings started sailing those? Or just if current ILCA leadership gets involved and destroys another good thing?  :P

That new ILCA you are ordering (which cracks me up) includes the massive sum of $400 for your dear friends at WS, ILCA, Kirby, PSA and PSJ. About as much as one of the vintage reds in your big boat. But wait...what? It’s your second new ILCA?

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17 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Chill. A take on real men don’t eat quiche. (And I wasn’t serious about the Zhik gear either.)

Many a true word spoken in jest.  You may have been joking, but “grassroots don’t buy new” seems to be ILCA’s mantra.

I could actually understand if Global Sailing decided it was a better business model to focus  on the elite (l wouldn’t agree, but could accept that they may genuinely believe that to be the most profitable route) but for the fan club to take the same view borders on dereliction of duty. 

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4 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Many a true word spoken in jest.  You may have been joking, but “grassroots don’t buy new” seems to be ILCA’s mantra.

I could actually understand if Global Sailing decided it was a better business model to focus  on the elite (l wouldn’t agree, but could accept that they may genuinely believe that to be the most profitable route) but for the fan club to take the same view borders on dereliction of duty. 

Exactly!  PSA and GS "own" ILCA leadership IMHO.

10 hours ago, Bill5 said:

That new ILCA you are ordering (which cracks me up) includes the massive sum of $400 for your dear friends at WS, ILCA, Kirby, PSA and PSJ. About as much as one of the vintage reds in your big boat. But wait...what? It’s your second new ILCA?

Bill, that is a lot to get wrong in one post. The $400 does not cover all the fees, I have never spent $400 (or close) on a bottle of wine for the big boat or otherwise, and no, it will be my second new ILCA/Laser.  Haven't purchased the second one yet.  First was a gift and purchased local so no significant shipping costs involved.  Second will be mine and shipping is a factor so checking out what my options are.  Not thrilled that geography drives the decision (even when there is not a local dealer) but hey there is another thing I can thanks the boneheads running ILCA for.

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

Exactly!  PSA and GS "own" ILCA leadership IMHO.

Bill, that is a lot to get wrong in one post. The $400 does not cover all the fees, I have never spent $400 (or close) on a bottle of wine for the big boat or otherwise, and no, it will be my second new ILCA/Laser.  Haven't purchased the second one yet.  First was a gift and purchased local so no significant shipping costs involved.  Second will be mine and shipping is a factor so checking out what my options are.  Not thrilled that geography drives the decision (even when there is not a local dealer) but hey there is another thing I can thanks the boneheads running ILCA for.

What are the total fees? List them.

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1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

What are the total fees? List them.

Well you could start by listing the FRAND licensing fees the new builders have to pay.

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That’s not a list. Please add to what is declared in the ILCA website so I understand your position better.

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Can't add what they will not disclose but I think you are smart enough to know that the list they published is not complete.  The FRAND fees are an example of such.  If you want to go on thinking they disclosed them all its certainly fine with me.  You can believe the earth is flat too and I promise to take no offense.  Its your right as a Canadian!  :P

And my position is clear. 

Current ILCA leadership sold out to our new overlords PSA/GS, long ago abandoned grass roots Laser sailors to cater to the elite and have made sailing a ILCA absurdly expensive when they could have made it more affordable and in so doing perhaps shifted the reality where the vast majority of those racing in the class, don't join the class anymore, obviously not seeing any value or benefit to it.

I am actually kinda surprised that you are surprised I bought a new boat (and will get another).  I long said I planned to.  I don't BS like many others here.  It is possible to love the boat (that was), the vision that Ian Bruce had (for an accessible SMOD boat and class), the people who are sailing and racing it (mostly not class members for good and obvious reasons), and strongly disagree the path the current leadership took and is taking.  

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40 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

That’s not a list. Please add to what is declared in the ILCA website so I understand your position better.

What's the point in being so obsessive about the individual items that make up the price of something you might want to buy?

Do you ask the same question if you are buying a bike or a bunch of bananas?

The price is the price. If you think the price is too high, then don't buy the bananas. Buy the avocados instead.

Apologies to the snowflakes who will be upset because I promoted avocados on a banana thread.

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Because Wess is suggesting fees are choking the class to death. I just want to know the number.

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11 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Because Wess is suggesting fees are choking the class to death. I just want to know the number.

812

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45 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Because Wess is suggesting fees are choking the class to death. I just want to know the number.

No I am not Bill.  I think the fees suck for sure.  I think ILCA leadership actions in this regard are akin to pick pocketing and a desperate attempt to raise more revenue by hook or crook since they have alienated the masses who don't join.  But as Tiller said then buy an avocados instead of a banana AND I didn't say that is "choking the class to death."  The elite are clearly quite willing to pay those fees (the ones disclosed and the ones not disclosed), and they (the elite) now are (all that is left of) the class so...

If you want to use that phrase, fine, but to be clear...

I think ILCA leaderships actions which have caused the price of the ILCA to ever escalate - when instead they could have been significantly lowered (which is what class leadership INCORRECTLY claimed would happen) - is contrary to the purpose of the class, the vision of Ian Bruce and to use your phrase is "choking the class to death" in the sense that the approach does not benefit the vast majority of individuals who sail in the class (but don't join). 

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54 minutes ago, Wess said:

Current ILCA leadership sold out to our new overlords PSA/GS, realized LPE was a losing proposition long ago and in order to keep the class alive AND in the Olympics abandoned grass roots Laser sailors to cater to the elite and have made significant changes to keep sailing an ILCA still possible absurdly expensive when they could have made it more affordable and in so doing perhaps shifted and continue the reality where the vast majority of those racing in the class, don't join the class anymore, obviously not seeing any value or benefit to it.  would still be able to do so

 

FIFY.

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

No I am not Bill.  I think the fees suck for sure.  I think ILCA leadership actions in this regard are akin to pick pocketing and a desperate attempt to raise more revenue by hook or crook since they have alienated the masses who don't join.  But as Tiller said then buy an avocados instead of a banana AND I didn't say that is "choking the class to death."  The elite are clearly quite willing to pay those fees (the ones disclosed and the ones not disclosed), and they (the elite) now are (all that is left of) the class so...

If you want to use that phrase, fine, but to be clear...

I think ILCA leaderships actions which have caused the price of the ILCA to ever escalate - when instead they could have been significantly lowered (which is what class leadership INCORRECTLY claimed would happen) - is contrary to the purpose of the class, the vision of Ian Bruce and to use your phrase is "choking the class to death" in the sense that the approach does not benefit the vast majority of individuals who sail in the class (but don't join). 

Didn't some one post a complete list of the fees in this thread like 5,000 posts ago?  I really think someone did, but ain't searchin' for it.

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45 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Because Wess is suggesting fees are choking the class to death. I just want to know the number.

Choking the class to death? What nonsense! 

ILCA regattas are well attended. The ILCA is still in the Olympics. ILCAs are selling like hot cakes.

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58 minutes ago, tillerman said:

If you think the price is too high, then don't buy the bananas. Buy the avocados instead.

I hate to break it to you, Marie Antoinette, but avocados are more than twice the price of bananas.  No wonder you think Aero’s are good value ;).  I think the humble carrot is more suitable for grass roots sailors. 

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21 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Didn't some one post a complete list of the fees in this thread like 5,000 posts ago?  I really think someone did, but ain't searchin' for it.

It's all very simple really.

1. Cost of doing business for an Olympic class in the era of FRAND. $$$$$$$$$

2. Pay-off to the winners in the Global Sailing vs LP trade war. $$$$$$$$$

 

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Just now, sosoomii said:

I hate to break it to you, Marie Antoinette, but avocados are more than twice the price of bananas.  No wonder you think Aero’s are good value ;).  I think the humble carrot is more suitable for grass roots sailors. 

Love you man!

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7 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's all very simple really.

1. Cost of doing business for an Olympic class in the era of FRAND. $$$$$$$$$

2. Pay-off to the winners in the Global Sailing vs LP trade war. $$$$$$$$$

 

That is a pretty accurate list but #1 didn't have to be.  They could have had FRAND, Olympics and cheaper boats.  The issue - though I am not a fan of FRAND - is the ILCA version of FRAND that ensured boat prices continued to go up instead of go down.

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21 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I hate to break it to you, Marie Antoinette, but avocados are more than twice the price of bananas.  No wonder you think Aero’s are good value ;).  I think the humble carrot is more suitable for grass roots sailors. 

 

20 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

And there you go again, Marie. Sliced bread, not hot cakes, for the masses. 

What the hell. Have it all. Carrots, avocados and bread. Are you happy now?

891099027_ScreenShot2021-03-08at9_53_14AM.thumb.png.abff7ec491d03944f6021b6e1b9eb644.png
 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Can't add what they will not disclose but I think you are smart enough to know that the list they published is not complete.  The FRAND fees are an example of such.  If you want to go on thinking they disclosed them all its certainly fine with me.  You can believe the earth is flat too and I promise to take no offense.  Its your right as a Canadian!  :P

And my position is clear. 

Current ILCA leadership sold out to our new overlords PSA/GS, long ago abandoned grass roots Laser sailors to cater to the elite and have made sailing a ILCA absurdly expensive when they could have made it more affordable and in so doing perhaps shifted the reality where the vast majority of those racing in the class, don't join the class anymore, obviously not seeing any value or benefit to it.

I am actually kinda surprised that you are surprised I bought a new boat (and will get another).  I long said I planned to.  I don't BS like many others here.  It is possible to love the boat (that was), the vision that Ian Bruce had (for an accessible SMOD boat and class), the people who are sailing and racing it (mostly not class members for good and obvious reasons), and strongly disagree the path the current leadership took and is taking.  

So you have no idea of the FRAND fees - you just know they are significant. And there are others fees that are not disclosed anywhere that you are unable to articulate them but know they are out there. OK - gotcha.

In the Wess Credo (is this going on your tombstone?), you talk about "Current ILCA leadership...long ago..." Oxymoron?

I am not surprised at all you are buying a new ILCA, because at the end of the day it is still the best choice (or a good used one... :P).  It certainly cracks me up that you would do so, thereby supporting all these worse-than-Nazi organizations and buy a boat that you say is waaaay overpriced. Somewhat duplicitous - no?   Here are some suggestions for a name for your new ILCA: "Suck&Blow" "Head Fake" "Eye Ronic" (for a touch of whimsy). 

Serious question. Let's add some invisible fees and say that the $400 disclosed should be doubled (that's $800 as your math sucks). The fees magically disappear so you get your shiny new Ovington fully loaded for $9,200. Still a rip-off, presumably. How much should it cost and why?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

That is a pretty accurate list but #1 didn't have to be.  They could have had FRAND, Olympics and cheaper boats.  The issue - though I am not a fan of FRAND - is the ILCA version of FRAND that ensured boat prices continued to go up instead of go down.

In what country are boat prices going down?  COVID has been an absolute boom to the industry.  The used market is bringing a solid 20-30% higher prices than in 2019.

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15 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

In what country are boat prices going down?  COVID has been an absolute boom to the industry.  The used market is bringing a solid 20-30% higher prices than in 2019.

:blink:

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26 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

 COVID has been an absolute boom to the industry.  The used market is bringing a solid 20-30% higher prices than in 2019.

What is the source of this data? What  countries were included in the survey? What classes of boats?

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Power boats in Charleston and FL as far as I know.  Of course they have to be in good condition.  A buddy of mine just drove to Alabama to get a 2017 Pioneer Center Console in the mid-$40k price.  Bought it just from the pictures on line because he was tired of losing deals in town because he waited a few days.

Grady White and Scout Boats have a back order on new boat orders.  I saw a stat in a recent local article saying sales were up 30% in the power boat industry.  

In our general local Laser market used boats are fetching premiums and are really hard to find.  A 2006 sold last week in 3 hrs after I put it on the tri-state D12 coconut telegram. 

COVID has shed a new light on single handed sailing and the OD regattas for them don't get canceled now.

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Power boats in Charleston and FL as far as I know.  Of course they have to be in good condition.  A buddy of mine just drove to Alabama to get a 2017 Pioneer Center Console in the mid-$40k price.  Bought it just from the pictures on line because he was tired of losing deals in town because he waited a few days.

Grady White and Scout Boats have a back order on new boat orders.  I saw a stat in a recent local article saying sales were up 30% in the power boat industry.  

In our general local Laser market used boats are fetching premiums and are really hard to find.  A 2006 sold last week in 3 hrs after I put it on the tri-state D12 coconut telegram. 

COVID has shed a new light on single handed sailing and the OD regattas for them don't get canceled now.

Thanks for the background.

And totally agree with the last point. 2020 was  one of the best years ever for RS Aero fleet growth in New England.

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5 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

@Firefly-DC why don’t you post something rather than just constantly down voting others?  Share your thoughts! If you don’t like avocados then suggest something better :)

He agrees with me all the time! The smartest person here. :)

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because unlike you and wessy, I don't need to constantly hear my own voice to feel validated.  There are several others who speak quite eloquently the views that I hold so there is rarely any need for me to add my voice to the cacophony.  I speak when I feel I need to.  Perhaps you and wessy should consider trying that approach.

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Lol, it would appear that when you do speak it’s not very popular!  I have fewer posts than bill, vwap, Robbie and Bruce, so just trying to balance the ILCA love-in.  Not much point in a forum where no-one chats...

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Not even close.  You are off by about 1568 miles AFAIK.  I have been accused of being many people in this and the last thread (there used to be a list and it got to 10 people if I recall including Tiller, Eye, IPL, and Bill Crane of all people) none of it was true so take your paranoia elsewhere.  I do admit I find it funny that you can be so easily triggered....

Sorry you can't handle facts, and an opinion grounded in facts that differs from your own.  And if you want to think everyone else is me that is fine too!

Oh and ILCA leadership sucks and their actions are causing the price of boats and gear to be much higher than it needs to be!  There is a better way!!

Have a nice day.

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Power boats in Charleston and FL as far as I know.  Of course they have to be in good condition.  A buddy of mine just drove to Alabama to get a 2017 Pioneer Center Console in the mid-$40k price.  Bought it just from the pictures on line because he was tired of losing deals in town because he waited a few days.

Grady White and Scout Boats have a back order on new boat orders.  I saw a stat in a recent local article saying sales were up 30% in the power boat industry.  

In our general local Laser market used boats are fetching premiums and are really hard to find.  A 2006 sold last week in 3 hrs after I put it on the tri-state D12 coconut telegram. 

COVID has shed a new light on single handed sailing and the OD regattas for them don't get canceled now.

So you seriously think ILCAs got more expensive because more people want to go single-handed racing?

 

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47 minutes ago, Wess said:

Oh and ILCA leadership sucks and their actions are causing the price of boats and gear to be much higher than it needs to be!  There is a better way!!

Have a nice day.

I have retired from active racing but I observe that it costs a lot more money to run racing and run a class than most people realize.  There is so much promotion and supporting of volunteers that needs to be done.  The fees for the class seem to me to be a price worth paying to keep the class vibrant and active.

I was not supportive of a switch to so many builders and prefer as much as possible a class appointed builder process with less builders to ensure one design (two global builders?)  but perhaps appointing this many builders , 2 will emerge as successful over time.

I think it is better to charge a fee on sails than on boats but I can see that would be hard to enforce with so many generic sail makers.

 

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9 hours ago, Wess said:

Can't add what they will not disclose but I think you are smart enough to know that the list they published is not complete.  The FRAND fees are an example of such.  If you want to go on thinking they disclosed them all its certainly fine with me.  You can believe the earth is flat too and I promise to take no offense.  Its your right as a Canadian!  :P

And my position is clear. 

Current ILCA leadership sold out to our new overlords .  

The good news is that the ILCA annual conference is in Houston this year, so we can all go and air our grievances:  https://ilca.org/ilca2021/

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53 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I have retired from active racing but I observe that it costs a lot more money to run racing and run a class than most people realize.  There is so much promotion and supporting of volunteers that needs to be done.  The fees for the class seem to me to be a price worth paying to keep the class vibrant and active.

I was not supportive of a switch to so many builders and prefer as much as possible a class appointed builder process with less builders to ensure one design (two global builders?)  but perhaps appointing this many builders , 2 will emerge as successful over time.

I think it is better to charge a fee on sails than on boats but I can see that would be hard to enforce with so many generic sail makers.

 

My point has nothing to do with the cost of a racing program. It is about the cost of a boat. Full stop. Period.  In the oddest way ILCA actions re LPE and the FRAND requirements opened the door to much cheaper boats if the right FRAND path was picked.  But of course that path benefited nobody other than grass roots so there was (and is) no way ILCA was going to care about them and so... you got the expensive version of FRAND.

Don't misunderstand re the fees.  I think they are obscene and more in number and $ than ILCA has disclosed but that is small potatoes in terms of boat costs.  I think the obscenity of the fees is that ILCA leadership and actions suck so bad that so few join so the only way they can raise revenue is to increase fees on boats and gear and in effect pick-pocket those of us who think they suck and only care about the elite (and so don't join).  For gosh sakes ILCA leadership was not shy about this.  The strategy is public.  They had declining members and were in financial trouble so said lets decrease membership fees (in hopes that more join) and collect more money using boat and gear fees because everyone has to pay those regardless of if they join.

42 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The good news is that the ILCA annual conference is in Houston this year, so we can all go and air our grievances:  https://ilca.org/ilca2021/

You have no idea LOL...

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

So you seriously think ILCAs got more expensive because more people want to go single-handed racing?

 

The market hasn't suffered.  BTW- we didn't break the internet today!

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20 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

The market hasn't suffered.  BTW- we didn't break the internet today!

LOL!  Not even SA.

And AFAIK there are a lots of unsold ILCA boats left in the channel including many of those you and I talked about in points south.

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