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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

Geeze Bill. Talk about dragging something out and fluffing up post and page counts.  I answered 20 times already.

I have no clue if ILCA is hiding "$98" or $980 or anything in-between.  This really is pretty simple unless you want to just play dumb...

1.) Was there not posts including from class leadership including on this very thread about FRAND licensing fees... that this was a requirement of the approach ILCA was taking - its a simple yes or no?

2.) Are those FRAND licensing fees disclosed in the posts and lists you refer to?

If you are a.) not lawn mower and b.) being honest then the answers are yes and no respectively.

And as to something costing between $500 and $1000 use whatever term you like.  For many that is expensive.  Yes I called it "small potatoes" and that was  relative to the high price of boats and the savings from lower cost boats if ILCA leadership picked a FRAND path that supported grass roots instead of the elite.  Yes, I also said the fees "ain't nothing either," as well as "ain't chump change" so congratulations on getting that right.  I also called them obscene.  And I stand by it.  That is my view. 

And finally no I will not buy a Zim POS ILCA made in China.  Hell, on just the pics posted here by those buffoons there were multiple quality defects obvious.  If you want to buy that crap have at it.  You spend your money how you like and I will spends mine how I like.  Just the pics alone of the Zim boats and Ovi boats tell the true story.  That even ILCA was too ignorant to pick up on the errors and have them correct it before posting it shows how dumb they are too.  But whatever.  Not my problem. 

And finally since you canntt understand how I can support grass roots and but a new Ovi boat (your assumption and not my confirmation) then while this might be a new concept for you... it is possible to care about someone or something other than yourself.  Give it a try.  You might like it.

Wow the fishing is good this morning.  Shame work gets in the way!

So I gotta ask Bill... who do you love?

 

I love you, man.

 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Yea that is right and fair but we are talking new boats. Robbie seemed to be claiming that the reason new ILCA are more expensive is due to COVID demand.

Noo no.  I wasn't saying that at all.  COVID has helped the USED market.

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

Noo no.  I wasn't saying that at all.  COVID has helped the USED market.

Yes, that makes sense and we agree on that... but the discussion was about new, not used boats.

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

It is tough to get enthused about throwing more posts in this thread right now. 
could someone please list the current “US”  and “THEM” so  the rest of us can understand which posters are good guys with whom we always agree, and who are the evil as guys ww must always decide and attack?? 
 

THEM
Bill - Grassroots sailors buy used Lasers.
Robbie - ILCA is great. Don't buy new Lasers.
Wess - ILCA is evil. I'm going to buy a new ILCA.

US 
Everybody else
 

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@tillerman - You can't be in charge when I am away if you are going around quoting yourself.  Good grief is that what happens when you buy an Aero?

Oh and I said the path current ILCA leadership is on is contrary to the interest of grass root sailors and something I don't support.  Don't think I used the word evil. 

Are you suggesting this be the new ILCA theme song?  I kinda liked money for nothing but to each his/her own...

 

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

Geeze Bill. ............(removed fluff)

1.) Was there not posts including from class leadership including on this very thread about FRAND licensing fees... that this was a requirement of the approach ILCA was taking - its a simple yes or no?

2.) Are those FRAND licensing fees disclosed in the posts and lists you refer to?

If you are a.) not lawn mower and b.) being honest then the answers are yes and no respectively.

And as to something costing between $500 and $1000 use whatever term you like.  For many that is expensive.  Yes I called it "small potatoes" and that was  relative to the high price of boats and the savings from lower cost boats if ILCA leadership picked a FRAND path that supported grass roots instead of the elite.  Yes, I also said the fees "ain't nothing either," as well as "ain't chump change" so congratulations on getting that right.  I also called them obscene.  And I stand by it.  That is my view. 

 

 

Hi Wess,

 

ILCA published the royalty fees (what you call FRAND fees) to the exact dollar on their website. They also disclose the exact plaque fee and the additional fee of $50 per boat paid to Global Sailing that was previously paid to BK.  I have seen very few classes  that provides such transparency on their website

They also give a very useful summary of expenditure.

 

As far as I can tell:

The plaque fee is $118 per boat. $83.55 goes to ILCA and a further $15 to the local region. This plaque fee pre-dated the change to FRAND

The "FRAND fee" (sic) is $207 per boat for a 7 rig with aluminum top section. 50% of this goes to ILCA , so 103.50.

The shift to FRAND adds $207 to cost of the boat.....not $1,000 and not $500.

The total fees on a new boat including plaque fee but not including sail buttons are $375 ....not somewhere between $500 and $1,000. 

The total that ILCA "pick your pocket" for is $202.    Its incredibly transparent.  It is also pretty damn reasonable for ensuring strict one design standards and providing you with a viable resale value and a good class association if you wish to avail yourself of it.

 

 

 

 

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I am certainly not showering the Class Association in unfettered praise.There are some parts of the process I dont agree with.

Let us turn to the other Trumpian claim that the grass roots boat owners somehow subsidize the elite. Turning to the finances, we find that the prestige elite events generate a surplus over and above the cost of running the events. The class collects a portion of elite event fees to spend on general class budget.  These Entry Fees contribute 35-40% of class revenues .    There will be accompanying expense for travel sending a class employee to the major events, but nothing close to 10% of class revenue.

 

 

 

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In summary, IMHO, if the Class Association did not exist......the price of your new boat would decline by approximately $202 and the resale value of your new Ovington boat would fall by $1,500 or likely more. 

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5 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I am certainly not showering the Class Association in unfettered praise.There are some parts of the process I dont agree with.

Let us turn to the other Trumpian claim that the grass roots boat owners somehow subsidize the elite. Turning to the finances, we find that the prestige elite events generate a surplus over and above the cost of running the events. The class collects a portion of elite event fees to spend on general class budget.  These Entry Fees contribute 35-40% of class revenues .    There will be accompanying expense for travel sending a class employee to the major events, but nothing close to 10% of class revenue.

 

 

 

Nobody's perfect and ILCA is included. I do like what Julian Bethwaite said about them:

"WRT ILCA, they and by they, Tracy, Takao, Andy, & Clive plus countless others inc Eric, from where I am sitting and with what I know have acted with the absolute best interests of the ILCA members at heart and given that Tracy is doing this for the love of it, and Takao has taken huge hits to his life and his business to get it back on track, a) all of, but Tracy and Takao more-so are completely mad, but b) you owe then a huge debt of gratitude. "

Note I get a different total than you, but as Wess said, it's still small potatoes. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Nobody's perfect and ILCA is included. I do like what Julian Bethwaite said about them:

"WRT ILCA, they and by they, Tracy, Takao, Andy, & Clive plus countless others inc Eric, from where I am sitting and with what I know have acted with the absolute best interests of the ILCA members at heart and given that Tracy is doing this for the love of it, and Takao has taken huge hits to his life and his business to get it back on track, a) all of, but Tracy and Takao more-so are completely mad, but b) you owe then a huge debt of gratitude. "

Note I get a different total than you, but as Wess said, it's still small potatoes. 

 

Hello Bill,

 

My sentiments exactly...BUT.....the class is alive, active and boats are still being made, so it worked out.

 

The Laser will not last forever but I learnt to race on a Laser many decades ago and it is amazing that it is still so active today.

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Eye - Saw your first post and thought OK an interesting fact based discussion and debate and wanted to reply when I was less busy and had some time. Then I saw the second where you descend again into labels (ie Trumpian) and realized that its just another trolling game you are playing so have at it.  That is not a criticism... its SA and anything is game I just try to avoid nibbling on bait and prefer to do the fishing.  For the record I don't think your claims are accurate and or even relevant to the most significant beef I have w ILCA which is the version of FRAND that they implemented which benefits some but hurts many (when the many could have been helped). 

 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

#inflation

Not relevant. The ILCA argument and you can find many posts on this very thread where class leadership - even you and Bill and others - all said that FRAND was going to result in the boats being much cheaper.  And that simply didn't happen. It was in fact the genesis of the original three pronged bet (will not be soon will not be NA and will not be cheaper).  The shame IMHO is the cheaper could have happened if they actually wanted it to.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Not relevant. The ILCA argument and you can find many posts on this very thread where class leadership - even you and Bill and others - all said that FRAND was going to result in the boats being much cheaper. Not true.  I said there may be the opportunity for prices to be cheaper.   And that simply didn't happen. It was in fact the genesis of the original three pronged bet (will not be soon will not be NA and will not be cheaper).  The shame IMHO is the cheaper could have happened if they actually wanted it to. As far as the bet- We do have more manufacturers and already better inventory/new boat order and parts availability and better quality FINISHED boats, (no boats delivered with missing parts).  AND - The class IS in better shape now than it was before the "big" change.  As for price- I firmly believe buyers are going to get what they pay for.

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Eye - Saw your first post and thought OK an interesting fact based discussion and debate and wanted to reply when I was less busy and had some time. Then I saw the second where you descend again into labels (ie Trumpian) and realized that its just another trolling game you are playing so have at it.  That is not a criticism... its SA and anything is game I just try to avoid nibbling on bait and prefer to do the fishing.  For the record I don't think your claims are accurate and or even relevant to the most significant beef I have w ILCA which is the version of FRAND that they implemented which benefits some but hurts many (when the many could have been helped). 

 


Wess- Maybe I missed it if you've written about this before, but could you please explain what is other version of FRAND which would help the many?

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The same thing I have argued for from day 1 of the first thread. Generic boats - just like generic parts and generic sails. 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Eye - Saw your first post and thought OK an interesting fact based discussion and debate and wanted to reply when I was less busy and had some time. Then I saw the second where you descend again into labels (ie Trumpian) and realized that its just another trolling game you are playing so have at it.  That is not a criticism... its SA and anything is game I just try to avoid nibbling on bait and prefer to do the fishing.  For the record I don't think your claims are accurate and or even relevant to the most significant beef I have w ILCA which is the version of FRAND that they implemented which benefits some but hurts many (when the many could have been helped). 

 

Trumpian was not meant to be personally offensive and political. I apologize if my language could have been better chosen.  It has become an adjective around here (where I live) for a conspiracy theory announced without supporting facts. It was not directed at you and certainly I didnt mean to suggest you had any political agenda.  Sorry.

If I recall I was pushing back against a theory advanced on some of this thread suggesting that the ILCA were looking to take money from the grass roots (pickin' those pockets) and allocate it towards elite sailors.....or merely that the ILCA only existed for the elite sailors.  Just based on the budget.....the ILCA takes money from elite sailors and uses that to subsidize the wider organization including grass rooots sailors.

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But the second paragraph of your post - no matter how it came about - is true. The majority of club sailors don’t see value in and join ILCA. That is a fact. As is ILCA leadership deciding that rather than do things that would generate value for grass roots sailors and entice them to join, they would instead raise revenue by increasing fees on not just boats but parts and sails that grass roots sailors have no practical choice but to buy. Those that do see value and do join ILCA are the more elite sailors and I am being nice in saying they see value... in reality they have no choice. Finally it was ILCA that said this was all done for the Olympics (and growth in China and Asia). It’s not at all unfair or unreasonable to to characterize the organization as being by and for the elite far more so than the grass roots. If they wanted to support grass roots they would be driving costs down not up.

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Name some adult-boat class organizations that are proliferated with grass roots sailors - let’s call those club racers - and what is it that the class organization does for them? 

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47 minutes ago, Wess said:

But the second paragraph of your post - no matter how it came about - is true. The majority of club sailors don’t see value in and join ILCA. That is a fact. As is ILCA leadership deciding that rather than do things that would generate value for grass roots sailors and entice them to join, they would instead raise revenue by increasing fees on not just boats but parts and sails that grass roots sailors have no practical choice but to buy. Those that do see value and do join ILCA are the more elite sailors and I am being nice in saying they see value... in reality they have no choice. Finally it was ILCA that said this was all done for the Olympics (and growth in China and Asia). It’s not at all unfair or unreasonable to to characterize the organization as being by and for the elite far more so than the grass roots. If they wanted to support grass roots they would be driving costs down not up.

With a 200,000+ potential used boat market I'd say the grass roots sailors are covered and given they are grass roots really are not the market for new ILCA's and honestly not really the class.  If I were running the class I would focus on the group that buys memberships and new boats and gear.  I.E. the more serious sailor. There's not a lot of budget to put a "grass roots rah-rah" person on the payroll to travel the world attempting to turn these sailors into dues paying, new gear seeking weekend warriors.   When someone new to the boat gets bitten by the bug they are the ones to decide to take that step.  If all goes to plan I'll be in the market for a new hull next fall, (after 20+ years of plunking around in various 2nd or 3rd hand ones). However, I do belong to the class because I compete and as with everything in live you get out of it what you put into it.  If you're looking for a free ride sailing is the wrong sport, (but I know you know that).  Grass roots sailing is not NA or Global level or Olympic competition which is where a bunch of class support $$$'s go.  You think that's the wrong approach, but I don't.  Just like I don't fault or discourage the grass roots folks for buying Intensity, (or other knock off) gear.  Spend the money when you decide you're serious.  Shoot- from a grass roots perspective I don't understand why you would buy a $5,000.00 new LPE when you can get a GREAT competitive, older model, (and ILCA class legal) boat for $4k and less.  Guarantee it will hold it's value better than the new LPE  boat, (in the US at least).

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

With a 200,000+ potential used boat market I'd say the grass roots sailors are covered and given they are grass roots really are not the market for new ILCA's and honestly not really the class.  If I were running the class I would focus on the group that buys memberships and new boats and gear.  I.E. the more serious sailor. There's not a lot of budget to put a "grass roots rah-rah" person on the payroll to travel the world attempting to turn these sailors into dues paying, new gear seeking weekend warriors.   When someone new to the boat gets bitten by the bug they are the ones to decide to take that step.  If all goes to plan I'll be in the market for a new hull next fall, (after 20+ years of plunking around in various 2nd or 3rd hand ones). However, I do belong to the class because I compete and as with everything in live you get out of it what you put into it.  If you're looking for a free ride sailing is the wrong sport, (but I know you know that).  Grass roots sailing is not NA or Global level or Olympic competition which is where a bunch of class support $$$'s go.  You think that's the wrong approach, but I don't.  Just like I don't fault or discourage the grass roots folks for buying Intensity, (or other knock off) gear.  Spend the money when you decide you're serious.  Shoot- from a grass roots perspective I don't understand why you would buy a $5,000.00 new LPE when you can get a GREAT competitive, older model, (and ILCA class legal) boat for $4k and less.  Guarantee it will hold it's value better than the new LPE  boat, (in the US at least).

OK, that is not entirely unfair but there is a big but that follows.  I want to come back to this.  Alas some interesting posts on this page just when my parents finally relent and let us kids help them get vaccine appointments and for the mess that is NJ that is looking like a full time job LOL.  So there is work work, then parents vaccine work and then SA fun later!

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If you jump on the ILCA website, there are links and info for sailors of all types. Free. How many of the 60 avail themselves to this? And they don’t even need to join. 

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Many of those 60 are members because, if nothing else, we host a well attended Laser Open every year for which class association membership is required. But Robbie, as a district rep, is saying he wouldn’t expend time or money on those folk because they’re not “serious” and most don’t buy shiny new boats. 

Robbie can speak for himself but I think you will find that is the District Secretaries and Fleet Captains in the ILCA class (and in pretty much every other class) who expend vast amounts of time (and maybe a modest amount of the class's money) on supporting and encouraging the grass roots sailors. They are the ones who find used boats for potential new sailors, who show them how to rig the boats, who give them advice on how to improve their racing skills, who organize regattas and social events and training sessions, and publicize those events, and pester people to show up at those events etc. etc. etc. Those people are ILCA too.

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The very successful model for Lasers in the past has been that front of fleet sailors turn over boats quickly, providing a buoyant and cost effective supply of cheap good quality boats for the grass roots. The supply of secondhand boats is far more important than new boats for the grass roots, so this model has worked. Its not that grass roots sailors shouldn't buy new boats its that they don't. The job of the CA is to support sailors as they are, not as someone in some ivory tower would like them to be. So it may well that the best thing the CA can do to support the grass roots is to do their best to ensure a plentiful supply of good quality secondhand boats coming down from the elite. There's an interesting counter intuitive here, because, as quite a number of classes have found out, if you have expensive high quality long lasting boats for the front of the fleet then the supply of good secondhand boats for the grass roots dries up and fleet growth is hammered.

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

The very successful model for Lasers in the past has been that front of fleet sailors turn over boats quickly, providing a buoyant and cost effective supply of cheap good quality boats for the grass roots. The supply of secondhand boats is far more important than new boats for the grass roots, so this model has worked. Its not that grass roots sailors shouldn't buy new boats its that they don't. The job of the CA is to support sailors as they are, not as someone in some ivory tower would like them to be. So it may well that the best thing the CA can do to support the grass roots is to do their best to ensure a plentiful supply of good quality secondhand boats coming down from the elite. There's an interesting counter intuitive here, because, as quite a number of classes have found out, if you have expensive high quality long lasting boats for the front of the fleet then the supply of good secondhand boats for the grass roots dries up and fleet growth is hammered.

This.   District level sailing is VERY grass roots.  ILCA provides damn near ANY support secretaries ask for.  As one of them I know and as I mentioned, (which has evaded the "copy/pasters" You get out of it what you put into it.

Grass root folks typically DON'T buy new boats and expensive gear because they are the "6 local events a year" sailor.  There's NOTHING wrong with that!

However, that sailor is not a sailor that is going to generate revenue for the class and that's fine too.  They are doing what works for them and they are happy.  They are on my communication list and get all the same encouragement as everyone else.  They are free to make their own decisions and participate as they wish.

As a District we provide the avenue for sailors to get involved.  It's up to the individual sailor to decide if they love it or not.  Some love their local club scene or maybe just frostbiting and that's great too.  However, (again) these are not your TYPICAL new boat buyers.  These are the 2nd had decent boat buyers and most don't join the class.

Speaking of class members.  I've asked this once and it was ignored, but how many Flying Scotts, J24's, J22's, (and various others) are our there and the owners are class members?  You'll find the percentages low.

So, ILCA supports the Districts but it's up to the districts to get the grass roots going.  I believe the ILCA , (being, you know, an INTERNATIONAL entity) can not support/afford the expense it would take to go into grass roots movements around the globe.  

Also, there's this other entity called "Boat Dealers".  The good ones make great grass roots drivers.  Our NEW local dealer sends me a message that I distribute to our district, (class members and non-class members) when he gets and inventory report of gear heading down I-95 that he can swing out and intercept.  

When someone is new to us and needing fear upgrades I talk to them about their ultimate plans.  If they are on a budget and not yet 100% sold on the boat I encourage them to start with the knock off gear and save their bones for if/when they are bitten by the bug.

Now- time for me to ask a question- When you say, "ILCA should support Grass Roots".  What, exactly are you looking for or expecting?  Should the class be sending out stimulus checks to used boat buyers?  Really, what are you looking for?  Again, keep in mind this is a GLOBAL organization. 

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22 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I think that if the ILCA class association cannot provide grass roots support (as you claim, and I largely agree ) then the ILCA class association should not receive a fee from new ILCA boat sales that are made to grass roots sailors. I am very much a club sailor and typically buy a new boat every 4 years or so.  My money to waste on new toys, but I chose not to waste it on ILCA class association fees that don’t benefit me. 
 

First- I'm not an official mouthpiece for ILCA.  I'm the D12 Secretary selected by my fellow district sailors.  I DO NOT speak on the position of the ILCA, but only my opinions on this matter.

2nd- How would you suggest the ILCA fund it's operations?

3rd- What do you expect from the ILCA as support to you as an individual "Grass Roots" sailor?

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Ugh. No time.  @RobbieB I say a plus 1 to everythibng sosoo said (that was part one of my there is a but after your earlier statement. 

On your second above - fund it through those who want to join

On your third above - stop stop breaking the piggy bank of grass roots sailors (and my part 2 of the but is that ILCA keeps making the boats and game a lot more expensive (like $ thousands as in plural) AND they are making the boats LESS equal than they used to be (at the club level) AND after all that the racing is no better.  So #ILCAfailed IMHO.

Finally you keep saying what other class...  First saying some other classes failed is not a reason for ILCA to (fail), and second I don't care about some other class.  I care about this one. This boat and these friends/fleet.  And by fleet I mean the 6 local events a year fleet too as it is they who are the many and by ILCA the forgotten.

#GenericLasers

Wish I had more damn time; sorry for the short-hand.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I think that if the ILCA class association cannot provide grass roots support (as you claim, and I largely agree ) then the ILCA class association should not receive a fee from new ILCA boat sales that are made to grass roots sailors. I am very much a club sailor and typically buy a new boat every 4 years or so.  My money to waste on new toys, but I chose not to waste it on ILCA class association fees that don’t benefit me. 
 

THIS.  Would like this 100 times if I could.  Plus 100000000000000000000!!  For all the grass roots folks who don't join ILCA and keep getting screwed by them!!

Would just add they could support them...

#GenericLasers

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A measure of insanity, so its said, is to do the same thing and expect a different result. So its futile to repeat what's been said before about the role of an International CA. Even more futile, of course is attempting to discuss anything with a self declared troll, since all they are interested in is perpetuating an argument.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

First saying some other classes failed is not a reason for ILCA to (fail), and second I don't care about some other class.  I care about this one.

None of the classes I mentioned have failed.  As a class the J24, 22 and Scott seem strong to me.  I'm pointing to the percentage of boat owners to class members being typically low across OD boats.

 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

3rd- What do you expect from the ILCA as support to you as an individual "Grass Roots" sailor?

Still no takers on this one?

Is the ILCA to go after an imaginary target?

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For Jim.  Its a two way street.  And...

Oh and I did Robbie.  You just ignored it.

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So let me get this straight. Wess and Sosoomi want the following to support grass roots sailing:

1) Elimination of ILCA fees from the cost of new boats and parts.  

2) Open market for generic boats and parts with a green light to use this equipment in any race.

Wess and Sosoomi - please add or edit. Keep it simple. No wandering off. 

 

 

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No that is not it but I don’t have time right now to expand on it.

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$202 per boat x 2000 boats a year

$50 per member x 15000 members

Sail button fee x 10,000 new sails 

advertising revenue

regatta fees

funds from hosts like the ADDITIONAL  $150,000 from Cancun in 2000

or the $50,000 from Chrysler at the 1983 Gulfport Worlds

 

i

 

 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

1. Yes. Fees to the CA should be optional and transparent, not hidden and unavoidable in the purchase of the item from the manufacturer.  Does a portion of the cost of a new Porsche go to the 911 

Have you looked at ILCA’s website?

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Just now, sosoomii said:

Yup, looks like over $200 in fees goes to ILCA for each new boat sold, regardless of whether you have Olympic aspirations or want to cruise round the harbour. Hardly obvious when you buy a boat from a dealer and no way to opt out.

If they told the dealer they had to put it on their invoices, do you think people would leave the store in search of an alternative? Do you think it is an unfair trading practice?   

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6 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Yup, looks like over $200 in fees goes to ILCA for each new boat sold, regardless of whether you have Olympic aspirations or want to cruise round the harbour. Hardly obvious when you buy a boat from a dealer and no way to opt out.


Just ask the dealer for a $500 discount to seal the deal and accept the $250 he will probably offer you. End of problem.

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15 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

You mistake me for someone that wants to buy a new ILCA :lol:

My extremely valuable advice was directed to all the readers of this thread who intend to buy a new ILCA and who resent the builder giving $200 to support the class for each boat he sells. (i.e. probably just Wess.) :lol:

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For any Canadians reading this bullshit, buy it in my province and pay at least 5% less tax. I won't charge you $2,000 to deliver it. We can talk. 

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

My extremely valuable advice was directed to all the readers of this thread who intend to buy a new ILCA and who resent the builder giving $200 to support the class for each boat he sells. (i.e. probably just Wess.) :lol:

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

 

Real grass roots sailors don't listen to Janet Jackson. 

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The $200 fee on your new boat

justification:

the resale value on your boat is enhanced by  THOUSANDS of dollars because of the laser’s position in the  sailing world.

The class association is that which guarantees your $2000-$5000 EXTRA resale value.

The $200 mat seem

like a lot to invest to get a $3000 return but ...’yeah

sorry Wess...  

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, sosoomii said:

1. Yes. Fees to the CA should be optional and transparent, not hidden and unavoidable in the purchase of the item from the manufacturer.  Does a portion of the cost of a new Porsche go to the 911 owners club? 

Does the 911 owners club monitor Porsche production, ensure that the cars are correctly built and that they are all the same. Does the 911 owners club ensure that racing Porsches comply with FIA rules? Does the 911 owners club work with the right holders, the builders and the drivers on an ongoing basis? Of course not. To equate a car owners club to a class association such as ILCA is not comparing like with like.

Fees are transparent, including those tied up in the products. And it's not like this is something that only applies to the ILCA. Many classes work on the same basis The idea that the fees should be optional is crazy. What you are saying is that you want to give the option to people to contribute if they want but if they don't, they can still have all the benefits. While some on here don't seem convinced that ILCA offers much for the majority of sailors,  I would argue that without ILCA, most Laser sailors would have taken a big hit to their pockets and the class would be dying because the association ensured the class kept Olympic status. Without that, Laser sailing would die in many countries, there would have been a significant number of second hand boats being dumped on the market depressing prices and supply issues would have got worse, not better.

I think there is a lot that the association could have done better, but for all of that, what they have done is ensure the long term viability of the class

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34 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The $200 fee on your new boat

justification:

the resale value on your boat is enhanced by  THOUSANDS of dollars because of the laser’s position in the  sailing world.

The class association is that which guarantees your $2000-$5000 EXTRA resale value.

The $200 mat seem

like a lot to invest to get a $3000 return but ...’yeah

sorry Wess...  

 

 

 

I can't think of a single class where boat owners are begging the builder to cut back on the amount of support they give the class.

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23 hours ago, RobbieB said:

2nd- How would you suggest the ILCA fund it's operations?

3rd- What do you expect from the ILCA as support to you as an individual "Grass Roots" sailor?

Bump- as to #3 so far I've only seen "T-shirts".....That's pretty lofty..

As to #2- Any idea how many class dues memberships of $45/yr it would take JUST to support the two Technical inspectors?  Did you happen to see that job description?  So, yes, that does ad significantly to annual budget needs of the class and yes, it is a part of FRAND and honestly I'm ok with it because it gives me piece of mind that of the 6 current builders the boats are going to be comparable which helps protect the value of the boats.

 

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11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

sorry Wess...  

 

 

 

No need to apologize.  I always admired you for the work and drive you have to make it go at a local level.  We have differing views when it comes to generic boats and while that surprises me (less so when they were still wedded to the bedrock SMOD principle) especially now that they have abandoned SMOD I still admire the work you do and your Easter regatta has always been on my bucket list simply because you do it (and I love Texas and the mid-west).

Beyond that I am finding the only thing harder than convincing a lemming of the truth is getting qualifying seniors a vaccine - at least in NJ.  Jesus government is more broken than ILCA but that is a different story.  But first that (vaccines for the rents), then this. I will be back!

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15 minutes ago, Wess said:

I still admire the work you do and your Easter regatta has always been on my bucket list simply because you do it (and I love Texas and the mid-west).

Beyond that I am finding the only thing harder than convincing a lemming of the truth is getting qualifying seniors a vaccine - 

Ditto on both!

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Not to derail, but in the spirit of derailing....

It was February 2020 when a hearing in the United States District Court for the District of Connecticut concluded, it was the result of a 7-year long Federal Court litigation between Laser designer Bruce Kirby and Quarter Moon (QMI) and LaserPerformance (Europe) Limited (LPE).
Alongside their battle with Kirby, LPE had its troubles with the International Laser Class Association (ILCA). After having been the dominant Laser builder for North America and Europe, LPE was removed from the approved builder list in March 2019 when ILCA found them to be building non-compliant boats.
That was strike one. Their second whiff was a year ago when Kirby’s claims were resolved by a jury who unanimously found in his favor, with QMI/LPE liable for a sum of $6,857,736.30, payable to Kirby. But as usual in the US Courts, it takes a while for resolution, but strike three came in a decision dated February 2, 2021.
LPE remains a non-class builder, and while they may appeal this latest judgement to reduce the fees, the case is over. United States District Judge Jeffrey Alker Meyer explains his latest verdict:
———–
This case is about a long-running dispute involving Laser sailboats. In 2013, plaintiffs
Bruce Kirby and his namesake company Bruce Kirby, Inc. (“BKI”) filed this action against multiple defendants including defendants Quarter Moon, Inc. (“QMI”) and LaserPerformance
(Europe) Ltd. (“LPE”).
 

"Following years of pre-trial litigation, I presided over a jury trial in February 2020 on claims for trademark infringement under the Lanham Act and for common law misappropriation of Bruce Kirby’s name. The jury returned a verdict in favor of both Kirby and BKI.
First, it awarded damages of $4,337,157.49 to BKI for trademark infringement by QMI. Second, it found both QMI and LPE liable to Kirby for misappropriation of his name, awarding damages of $2,520,578.81 against LPE and nominal damages against QMI.
It also found that both QMI and LPE should be liable for punitive damages for the misappropriation claim in an amount to be determined by the Court.
Defendants have moved to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction and for a new trial, while plaintiffs have moved for entry of judgment in their favor. For the reasons set forth below, I will deny defendants’ motion to dismiss and for a new trial, but I will grant in major part plaintiffs’ motion for entry of judgment (subject to a reduction in the damages award), for attorneys’ fees under the Lanham Act, and for punitive damages under Connecticut common law.
All in all, I will award damages of $4,577,315.14 along with payment of $804,179.44 in punitive damages, which includes attorneys’ fees in the amount of $734,528.30.
———–
Here are two documents from the court:
 Judgement (2 pages)
 Order Re Post-Trial Motions (45 pages)

 

That's a whole lotta "Lasers" to cover that nut.....

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22 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I think if ILCA CA did a good job they would have enough members to become self-funding and not need this revenue stream of taxing non-members.  

As it is, if I read their website correctly, they have taken the opportunity of FRAND to double the fee they collect with each new boat.

You must have been looking at another post when you typed  these comments as they don’t answer what I asked

22 hours ago, Bill5 said:

If they told the dealer they had to put it on their invoices, do you think people would leave the store in search of an alternative? Do you think it is an unfair trading practice?   

Give it another shot

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Imagine you just bought a new racing dinghy and then you discover that the builder of the boat donates 2% of the retail price of every boat she sells to the class association because she figures that a vibrant, active class association helps her business.

Is this likely to make you angry or happy?

Asking for a friend.

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

Imagine you just bought a new racing dinghy and then you discover that the builder of the boat donates 2% of the retail price of every boat she sells to the  dastardly class association because she figures that the class officials need the $ so they can all  go on "there" super duper super secret vacays. 

Is this likely to make you angry or happy?

Asking for a sock, troll.

FIFY

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I
Here in the UK, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 explicitly makes hidden fees unfair.

 

265397A5-C5CC-41E1-A823-ED4E2329662D.png

Does this apply to retail transactions?

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

Yes

Interesting. Fees have been part of the cost of Lasers and sails for years. Do you poms get to sue? Who do you sue - the dealer?

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6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Put the annual class fee up then! Don’t charge innocent bystanders.

Who the hell are these "innocent bystanders" ?

They sound more like freeloaders to me.   They want all or some of the benefits of the Laser and they dont want to contribute a dime?

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

 

Here in the UK, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 explicitly makes hidden fees unfair.

 

 

Hundreds of consumer product you buy in the UK includes royalty fees and FRAND fees. They are included in the cost of manufacture. 

Perfectly common products like a cell phone incur dozens of stacked royalty fees .  I think the average FRAND fee per phone is around $9- $10 but it may be higher because some of the component suppliers will in turn be paying FRAND fees.

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11 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Hundreds of consumer product you buy in the UK includes royalty fees and FRAND fees. They are included in the cost of manufacture. 

Perfectly common products like a cell phone incur dozens of stacked royalty fees .  I think the average FRAND fee per phone is around $9- $10 but it may be higher because some of the component suppliers will in turn be paying FRAND fees.

Exactly.

And the price of Lasers has always included the "hidden fee" of a royalty payment to Bruce Kirby as designer. This whole legal saga in Laser world started because one builder allegedly stopped paying those fees.

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43 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Interesting. Fees have been part of the cost of Lasers and sails for years. Do you poms get to sue? Who do you sue - the dealer?

Found this:

Your rights under the Consumer Rights Act are against the retailer – the company that sold you the product – not the manufacturer, so you must take any claim to the retailer. 

Go get 'em! You will make a lot more friends with your crusade!

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41 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Who the hell are these "innocent bystanders" ?

They sound more like freeloaders to me.   They want all or some of the benefits of the Laser and they dont want to contribute a dime?

 

 

 

Heck I did not mean to come across as condescending. My bad.  Wess and Sosoomi are passionate about the sport and I respect that.

I think that many local club sailors who organize their own racing underestimate how much they are benefiting from the infrastructure of a class association that keeps the one design class alive and vibrant and one design.

They probably dont join class associations.  In order to give them and other sailors the sport that they so love, class associations need revenue sources levied in a fair way on those who can most afford it and benefit the most from the work of the class association. 

In their own way, Wess and Sosoomi's are inadvertently more persuasive about the benefits of a builder fee and sail fee than any of the class association supporters.

Here we have 2 sailors who periodically can afford to buy new boats and enjoy many of the benefits of the class association but exercise their right (as they should ) not to contribute via class dues.  I really respect that. They dont want to be part of the tribe and class association...and that's okay......but they did buy new boats and they did benefit from at least some of the work of the class association, so they have been charged for that in a fair way.

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Are ILCA boats required to be sold with official ILCA sails?  If so, buy boat and sell unused ILCA sail (to someone racing official ILCA events) at a discount over buying retail.  Then buy your un-fee-tainted knockoff sail and probably have some cash left for a new keyboard for your computer after it wears out from continuing to solve this terrible injustice through posting on this thread.  Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

I think you know that I’m not talking about license fees, frand fees or royalty payments, which are all on top of the $200 that goes to directly to ILCA CA. The ILCA CA cut is not IP related, it’s just protection racket income.

Huh? If you pay £6000 for a new boat and never race it, or never race it at an ILCA event, what freeloading is going on? What CA benefits are they getting for free? Of course they get the benefits of the boat product, they’ve paid for that - but you seem to be confusing the boat product with the class association. 
 

I hope there are dozens of ways that you benefit. Of course the quality of that benefit depends on the class association...but to influence that you would have to join the class.

But one simple benefit, is that without the class association and the activities it organizes, the Laser would have ceased production 30 + years ago.   Classes without healthy class associations die.

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the Easter Laser Regatta is shaping up into a wowza event. We already have “gonna be there” from Florida, New Jersey, Mexico, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Minnesota, and the home state. 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

@Mambo Kings I have been a member of every class association of every boat I have owned, for every year of ownership.  Even been on the CA committee.  I am currently class captain at my club for not one but two classes and have been on the club committee for most of the last 10 years.  I regularly organise and take training sessions, open meetings and social events, despite having a seriously ill wife, a young family and working 300 miles away from home (and the sailing club). I have never taken a penny in payment or expenses for any of this, because I am passionate about sailing and believe strongly in community.

So please don’t presume that I am ignorant about what it takes to make sailing happen.  I strongly encourage everyone who races to join their CA, but the CA income should come through voluntary membership fees, regatta fees, sponsorship and regalia.

Sosoomii. I profoundly apologize. 

Sailing depends on people like you. 

Thank you for everything that you do.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

@Mambo KingsI strongly encourage everyone who races to join their CA, but the CA income should come through voluntary membership fees, regatta fees, sponsorship and regalia.

Sosoomii, we both have given a lot to one design sailing. 

Lets talk about the different ways to fund class associations later in the thread. Im very tired this evening.

One thing I think we will agree on is that the most successful classes realize that their most valuable asset is the army of grass roots volunteers.  The best classes devote a great deal of their energy and resources to supporting, encouraging and leveraging the volunteers and local fleets ....and in my experience it really works.   We can compare notes on how different classes have funded this.

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On 3/10/2021 at 1:53 PM, RobbieB said:

With a 200,000+ potential used boat market I'd say the grass roots sailors are covered and given they are grass roots really are not the market for new ILCA's and honestly not really the class.  If I were running the class I would focus on the group that buys memberships and new boats and gear.  I.E. the more serious sailor. .

I generally agree with much of what Robbie says....but not this I am afraid.

I think that grass roots sailors/ club racers/ even the occasional sailor who only turns up for the annual regatta should be very important to any class organization, especially the Laser class.

 

More on this later.

In the Viper Class, we realized at the outset that growing the class depended on growing an enthusiastic and vibrant grass roots cadre of sailors.  A very high percentage of new owners buy their first boat as a used boat.  They typically buy the boat from an existing owner who upgrades to a new boat.  One of the key roles of the national class association is to hug our local fleet captains and help them grow their local fleets .  Someone stepping into the class and buying a used boat is generating the sale of a new boat  somewhere and growing the pool of active boats.  The grand prix sailor buying a new Viper for the circuit , honestly does not need a lot of encourage ment from the class,,,,obviously good events etc.  But the local cleet spark plug doing hours of volunteer time , sending out a fleet newsletter and hosting local events.....its a lot of work and a class organization can provide them with lots of good stuff to help.

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I think you'll find that a royalty or any other payment to a third party which is included in the headline sale price is not a hidden fee. AIUI a hidden fee is an extra charge that is not included in the sale price. 

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

I think you'll find that a royalty or any other payment to a third party which is included in the headline sale price is not a hidden fee. AIUI a hidden fee is an extra charge that is not included in the sale price. 

Please stop introducing facts and truth to this discussion. This is meant to be a safe place for trolls to air their fantasies and conspiracy theories.

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Others have posted on this debate on how class associations should be funded.

Here is my two cents based entirely on my experience in the Viper Class. It is neither right nor wrong but it worked for us.

Our objective in the Viper class from the outset, was that we wanted to include everyone in this tribe that we were going to call a class association. We wanted to provide support to the owner who only raced occasionally in PHRF and to the grand prix one design circuit competitor with two or even three boats. We wanted everyone's contact information so that we could keep them up with news and events. We viewed our responsibility as making Viper sailing fun for everyone, and camaraderie was always going to be a big part of this.

So from the outset, we wanted class membership to be as inexpensive as possible, so that the local club sailor saw it as value.   We are very mindful of our grass roots heritage.

Initially this was easy as club volunteers did everything.

The class kept growing and growing.  We started to have expenses like a full time paid administrator , D&O insurance, Databases to store images and materials for fleet captains, promotional activity etc, and very importantly, we had purchased our IP long before other class IP problems  started.  We own and maintain the trademark for the Viper logo and we own the right to appoint builders.

Fortunately in the early stages of growth we developed a fairly healthy source of revenue from sponsorship .

Longer term growth needed some careful thought.  We wanted our sources of revenue to match the service we were providing and we wanted to keep membership dues low. The  local club member with a used boat who bought one sail every couple of years belonged to the class association for different reasons than the grand prix circuit racer who bought new sails every year and a new boat every three years.

We did not want a Gucci/Melges member dues in the 100s of dollars because it simply would not be fair to ask our local sailors to pay this amount and we would lose the very life blood of our grass roots based class association.   So we have four revenue streams, inexpensive member dues, sail royalty revenues, builder royalty revenue dues and sponsorship.  All are significant.

To those who argue sail royalties are a hidden fee.....neither we nor our class appointed sail makers see it that way.  The Class Association is by far the most important marketing organization for our sail makers. Our class activities directly affect their revenues. The more racing we organize, the more sails they sell.  There is a direct correlation between regatta attendance and sailmaker revenues (we can plot this data very exactly because we can compare regatta attendance numbers and sailmaker royalty payments). In a bumper year with a well attended World championships and well attended local and regional regattas, we can quite clearly see sailmakers sales increase significantly.   The class association can have a far bigger impact on sailmaker revenues than a $20,000 advertising campaign on SA and Sailing World.  So to us, and our sailmakers, directing part of the profit margin on a sail to the class organization is money well spent. It costs us money to promote and grow the class.....the direct beneficiary of these efforts are the sailmakers and the builder .....and they are happy to contribute via a royalty payment.

What we also like is that the cost of this revenue is apportioned in a fair way. The occasional club racer doesnt buy many sails and the grand prix racer buys a lot of sails.  So we are getting the same revenue from a grand prix racer as raising the dues but at the same time, our treasured grass roots local owner can continue to afford an inexpensive class association which directs a significant amount of its resources to supporting local fleet captains.

 

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20 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Others have posted on this debate on how class associations should be funded.

Here is my two cents based entirely on my experience in the Viper Class. It is neither right nor wrong but it worked for us.

Our objective in the Viper class from the outset, was that we wanted to include everyone in this tribe that we were going to call a class association. We wanted to provide support to the owner who only raced occasionally in PHRF and to the grand prix one design circuit competitor with two or even three boats. We wanted everyone's contact information so that we could keep them up with news and events. We viewed our responsibility as making Viper sailing fun for everyone, and camaraderie was always going to be a big part of this.

So from the outset, we wanted class membership to be as inexpensive as possible, so that the local club sailor saw it as value.   We are very mindful of our grass roots heritage.

Initially this was easy as club volunteers did everything.

The class kept growing and growing.  We started to have expenses like a full time paid administrator , D&O insurance, Databases to store images and materials for fleet captains, promotional activity etc, and very importantly, we had purchased our IP long before other class IP problems  started.  We own and maintain the trademark for the Viper logo and we own the right to appoint builders.

Fortunately in the early stages of growth we developed a fairly healthy source of revenue from sponsorship .

Longer term growth needed some careful thought.  We wanted our sources of revenue to match the service we were providing and we wanted to keep membership dues low. The  local club member with a used boat who bought one sail every couple of years belonged to the class association for different reasons than the grand prix circuit racer who bought new sails every year and a new boat every three years.

We did not want a Gucci/Melges member dues in the 100s of dollars because it simply would not be fair to ask our local sailors to pay this amount and we would lose the very life blood of our grass roots based class association.   So we have four revenue streams, inexpensive member dues, sail royalty revenues, builder royalty revenue dues and sponsorship.  All are significant.

To those who argue sail royalties are a hidden fee.....neither we nor our class appointed sail makers see it that way.  The Class Association is by far the most important marketing organization for our sail makers. Our class activities directly affect their revenues. The more racing we organize, the more sails they sell.  There is a direct correlation between regatta attendance and sailmaker revenues (we can plot this data very exactly because we can compare regatta attendance numbers and sailmaker royalty payments). In a bumper year with a well attended World championships and well attended local and regional regattas, we can quite clearly see sailmakers sales increase significantly.   The class association can have a far bigger impact on sailmaker revenues than a $20,000 advertising campaign on SA and Sailing World.  So to us, and our sailmakers, directing part of the profit margin on a sail to the class organization is money well spent. It costs us money to promote and grow the class.....the direct beneficiary of these efforts are the sailmakers and the builder .....and they are happy to contribute via a royalty payment.

What we also like is that the cost of this revenue is apportioned in a fair way. The occasional club racer doesnt buy many sails and the grand prix racer buys a lot of sails.  So we are getting the same revenue from a grand prix racer as raising the dues but at the same time, our treasured grass roots local owner can continue to afford an inexpensive class association which directs a significant amount of its resources to supporting local fleet captains.

 

"Royalties" sounds so much better than "hidden fees."

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On 3/12/2021 at 7:41 PM, sosoomii said:

Do ILCA CA need to do that for the ILCA?  No, they have manoeuvred themselves into a position where they chose to do that.  The CA do not need to monitor production (esp. if it remained a SMOD) or work with rights holders etc.  It just has to organise regattas and print t-shirts for a product supplied by a third party.  Everything else is a power play on their part.

I believe that you are mistaken. First, the class association didn't manoeuvre themselves into a position where they chose to do what they do. That was done back in the day when the trademarks were given to the regional builders, the agreements with Kirby were drawn up and the builders manual was first developed. The idea was that there was a 3 way balance of power and interests. The association was set up in such a way to ensure that it didn't have too much power, with builders reps being on the board. To try to "blame" the CA for placing itself in a position it shouldn't be in seems to me to be wrong and ignoring what really happened.

Next, the Laser was never a SMOD. It might have been when Ian Bruce was the sole manufacturer, but the reality is that for most of its life, there were 4 builders, who over the years have had varying levels of cooperation ranging from complete to none at all. We know that there have been problems with ensuring all comply to the build manual, so somebody had to monitor what is going on.

This leads to the final point - who should police a one design class? You cannot leave it to the builders. WS won't do the job. With some multi builder one design classes, it is the copyright holder that does the job but there isn't one here so it only leaves the CA, just like it does with so many other one design classes.

The model you seem to advocate for is only suitable where there really is a SMOD, as in the case of the RS boats. This is not the case with the ILCA.

 

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Simon, that is an extraordinarily accurate analogy of modern-day associations and the power play.

I have never seen it put in so few words!

I really believe that you have more than hit the nail on the head, you have rammed it home.

Bravo,    jB

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On 3/11/2021 at 11:04 AM, sosoomii said:

We have around 60 Lasers at my club in the UK.  Nearly all will do at one club race in a year, about half will club race regularly.

Very similar size to the Laser fleet that I sailed in a couple of decades back. I have fond memories of the excellent racing at that time - and to this day was the largest regular club fleet I have been a part of.

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6 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Others have posted on this debate on how class associations should be funded.

Here is my two cents based entirely on my experience in the Viper Class. It is neither right nor wrong but it worked for us.

Our objective in the Viper class from the outset, was that we wanted to include everyone in this tribe that we were going to call a class association. We wanted to provide support to the owner who only raced occasionally in PHRF and to the grand prix one design circuit competitor with two or even three boats. We wanted everyone's contact information so that we could keep them up with news and events. We viewed our responsibility as making Viper sailing fun for everyone, and camaraderie was always going to be a big part of this.

So from the outset, we wanted class membership to be as inexpensive as possible, so that the local club sailor saw it as value.   We are very mindful of our grass roots heritage.

Initially this was easy as club volunteers did everything.

The class kept growing and growing.  We started to have expenses like a full time paid administrator , D&O insurance, Databases to store images and materials for fleet captains, promotional activity etc, and very importantly, we had purchased our IP long before other class IP problems  started.  We own and maintain the trademark for the Viper logo and we own the right to appoint builders.

Fortunately in the early stages of growth we developed a fairly healthy source of revenue from sponsorship .

Longer term growth needed some careful thought.  We wanted our sources of revenue to match the service we were providing and we wanted to keep membership dues low. The  local club member with a used boat who bought one sail every couple of years belonged to the class association for different reasons than the grand prix circuit racer who bought new sails every year and a new boat every three years.

We did not want a Gucci/Melges member dues in the 100s of dollars because it simply would not be fair to ask our local sailors to pay this amount and we would lose the very life blood of our grass roots based class association.   So we have four revenue streams, inexpensive member dues, sail royalty revenues, builder royalty revenue dues and sponsorship.  All are significant.

To those who argue sail royalties are a hidden fee.....neither we nor our class appointed sail makers see it that way.  The Class Association is by far the most important marketing organization for our sail makers. Our class activities directly affect their revenues. The more racing we organize, the more sails they sell.  There is a direct correlation between regatta attendance and sailmaker revenues (we can plot this data very exactly because we can compare regatta attendance numbers and sailmaker royalty payments). In a bumper year with a well attended World championships and well attended local and regional regattas, we can quite clearly see sailmakers sales increase significantly.   The class association can have a far bigger impact on sailmaker revenues than a $20,000 advertising campaign on SA and Sailing World.  So to us, and our sailmakers, directing part of the profit margin on a sail to the class organization is money well spent. It costs us money to promote and grow the class.....the direct beneficiary of these efforts are the sailmakers and the builder .....and they are happy to contribute via a royalty payment.

What we also like is that the cost of this revenue is apportioned in a fair way. The occasional club racer doesnt buy many sails and the grand prix racer buys a lot of sails.  So we are getting the same revenue from a grand prix racer as raising the dues but at the same time, our treasured grass roots local owner can continue to afford an inexpensive class association which directs a significant amount of its resources to supporting local fleet captains.

 

If I remember our Viper sail button fees are 50.00 per sail or 150.00 each year for a new set per year.